Sodium Chlorate weedkiller

Post by Retired
I'm told that the use of this has now been banned; certainly I've been
unable to obtain any from local garden centres.
Does anyone know if this is true, or is it just a ploy to sell the higher
priced products?
B.E.

It's still widely-available although these days it's sold with a high
proportion of fire-retardant after some nasty incidents in the past of it
being used in explosive preparations. Killjoys! The retardant doesn't stop
it working as a weedkiller however.

Robbie

2009-08-06 14:37:32 UTC

I have two containers of it in my shed. Thank God I'm not dark skinned,
I'd be getting raided at dawn!

duffer

2009-08-06 18:07:20 UTC

...but for whatever reason most of the main suppliers seem to hav
stopped stocking it..used to get mine from B & Q....only a fe
(expensive) internet suppliers it seems :

--
duffer

Brimstone

2009-08-06 14:20:48 UTC

Some unpleasant people mixed it with other substances and used in cars and
lorries to make very nasty loud noises in public places. Hence the
restrictions.

November 5

2009-08-06 14:24:02 UTC

It is as I predicted. People are being disarmed in every possible way
so that we will have no means of opposing the Communist Big Brother
autocracy in the works. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant - all
they want is your taxes and obedient compliance.

Next up, petrol will be banned under the guise of "environmentally
friendly" electric cars.

Run while you can!

N5

Sam

2009-08-06 15:22:00 UTC

It is as I predicted. People are being disarmed in every possible way
so that we will have no means of opposing the Communist Big Brother
autocracy in the works. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant - all
they want is your taxes and obedient compliance.
Next up, petrol will be banned under the guise of "environmentally
friendly" electric cars.
Run while you can!

Shouldn't that be "drive while you can" ?

November 5

2009-08-06 16:07:28 UTC

It is as I predicted. People are being disarmed in every possible way
so that we will have no means of opposing the Communist Big Brother
autocracy in the works. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant - all
they want is your taxes and obedient compliance.
Next up, petrol will be banned under the guise of "environmentally
friendly" electric cars.
Run while you can!

Shouldn't that be "drive while you can" ?

No. Run (from the UK) while you can!

N5

Sam

2009-08-06 16:14:42 UTC

It is as I predicted. People are being disarmed in every possible way
so that we will have no means of opposing the Communist Big Brother
autocracy in the works. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant - all
they want is your taxes and obedient compliance.
Next up, petrol will be banned under the guise of "environmentally
friendly" electric cars.
Run while you can!

Shouldn't that be "drive while you can" ?

No. Run (from the UK) while you can!

Where to though?

November 5

2009-08-06 16:25:15 UTC

Post by November 5
No. Run (from the UK) while you can!

Where to though?

Obviously, that depends on your personal beliefs and personal
circumstance.

Most people will not have the mobility that they had before the credit
crunch simply because they can't sell their home and leave, especially
with it being in negative equity.

The usual Anglo destinations like the USA, Canada and Australia are
quickly turning into countries with governments that obsessively
meddle and legislate. The UK's rush to become a Communist police state
is the quickest of all, though.

N5

Ian Jackson

2009-08-06 16:35:43 UTC

In message

Post by November 5
No. Run (from the UK) while you can!

Where to though?

Obviously, that depends on your personal beliefs and personal
circumstance.
Most people will not have the mobility that they had before the credit
crunch simply because they can't sell their home and leave, especially
with it being in negative equity.
The usual Anglo destinations like the USA, Canada and Australia are
quickly turning into countries with governments that obsessively
meddle and legislate. The UK's rush to become a Communist police state
is the quickest of all, though.

I disagree completely. It's not 'Communist'.

--
Ian

November 5

2009-08-06 17:15:45 UTC

Post by Ian Jackson
In message

Post by November 5
No. Run (from the UK) while you can!

Where to though?

Obviously, that depends on your personal beliefs and personal
circumstance.
Most people will not have the mobility that they had before the credit
crunch simply because they can't sell their home and leave, especially
with it being in negative equity.
The usual Anglo destinations like the USA, Canada and Australia are
quickly turning into countries with governments that obsessively
meddle and legislate. The UK's rush to become a Communist police state
is the quickest of all, though.

I disagree completely. It's not 'Communist'.

Individual income tax, NI, VAT, council tax, fuel duty, congestion
charge, inheritance tax, etc.

If the tax rate is cumulatively 50% that means half of your working
life is spent working for the government. It might not be Communist in
the purest sense of the word but it is at least halfway there.

N5

AlanG

2009-08-06 18:28:05 UTC

On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 17:35:43 +0100, Ian Jackson

Post by Ian Jackson
In message

Post by November 5
No. Run (from the UK) while you can!

Where to though?

Obviously, that depends on your personal beliefs and personal
circumstance.
Most people will not have the mobility that they had before the credit
crunch simply because they can't sell their home and leave, especially
with it being in negative equity.
The usual Anglo destinations like the USA, Canada and Australia are
quickly turning into countries with governments that obsessively
meddle and legislate. The UK's rush to become a Communist police state
is the quickest of all, though.

I disagree completely. It's not 'Communist'.

It's about as communist as E Gemany in 1974

Ian Jackson

2009-08-06 18:53:01 UTC

Post by AlanG
On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 17:35:43 +0100, Ian Jackson

Post by Ian Jackson
In message

Post by November 5
No. Run (from the UK) while you can!

Where to though?

Obviously, that depends on your personal beliefs and personal
circumstance.
Most people will not have the mobility that they had before the credit
crunch simply because they can't sell their home and leave, especially
with it being in negative equity.
The usual Anglo destinations like the USA, Canada and Australia are
quickly turning into countries with governments that obsessively
meddle and legislate. The UK's rush to become a Communist police state
is the quickest of all, though.

I disagree completely. It's not 'Communist'.

It's about as communist as E Gemany in 1974

I don't think that any of the 'communist' countries were very
'communist'. 'Fascist', yes, but 'communist', no.

--
Ian

AlanG

2009-08-07 06:37:06 UTC

On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 19:53:01 +0100, Ian Jackson

Post by AlanG
On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 17:35:43 +0100, Ian Jackson

Post by Ian Jackson
In message

Post by November 5
No. Run (from the UK) while you can!

Where to though?

Obviously, that depends on your personal beliefs and personal
circumstance.
Most people will not have the mobility that they had before the credit
crunch simply because they can't sell their home and leave, especially
with it being in negative equity.
The usual Anglo destinations like the USA, Canada and Australia are
quickly turning into countries with governments that obsessively
meddle and legislate. The UK's rush to become a Communist police state
is the quickest of all, though.

I disagree completely. It's not 'Communist'.

It's about as communist as E Gemany in 1974

I don't think that any of the 'communist' countries were very
'communist'. 'Fascist', yes, but 'communist', no.

Exactly

Steve Walker

2009-08-06 20:17:54 UTC

Post by AlanG
It's about as communist as E Gemany in 1974

Share the sentiment, but really there's no comparison.

- Grey, bleak joyless GDR, shoddy goods and no imports, restricted
international travel for 99% of public. Private enterprise suppressed
except for private, secret benefit of powerful elite.

- Gaudy, commercialised UK, wasteful wealth is flaunted as a fashion,
highest quality goods freely available on very high street, international
travel cheap and easy for 99% of public. Private enterprise deified,
officially better than public service.

What we have become is all the bad parts of the USA, with none of the good
bits.

November 5

2009-08-06 21:34:53 UTC

Post by AlanG
It's about as communist as E Gemany in 1974

Share the sentiment, but really there's no comparison.
- Grey, bleak joyless GDR, shoddy goods and no imports, restricted
international travel for 99% of public. Private enterprise suppressed
except for private, secret benefit of powerful elite.
- Gaudy, commercialised UK, wasteful wealth is flaunted as a fashion,
highest quality goods freely available on very high street, international
travel cheap and easy for 99% of public. Private enterprise deified,
officially better than public service.
What we have become is all the bad parts of the USA, with none of the good
bits.

Communism is about redistributing wealth from those who deserve it to
those who don't. Taxation to support non-jobs and fund unwanted
government expenditure is an example of such redistribution of wealth.
Therefore we are Communist in all but name.

Even if ideal Communism was implemented and everyone was equal, is it
best that genetically superior people would have the same number of
progeny and state-allocated resources as genetically inferior people?
Eventually it would lead to a population whose gene pool is utterly
infested with maladapted genes, such as various inheritable diseases,
genetic defects, poor consitution and feeblemindedness.

N5

Fredxx

2009-08-07 06:11:15 UTC

Post by AlanG
It's about as communist as E Gemany in 1974

Share the sentiment, but really there's no comparison.
- Grey, bleak joyless GDR, shoddy goods and no imports, restricted
international travel for 99% of public. Private enterprise suppressed
except for private, secret benefit of powerful elite.
- Gaudy, commercialised UK, wasteful wealth is flaunted as a fashion,
highest quality goods freely available on very high street, international
travel cheap and easy for 99% of public. Private enterprise deified,
officially better than public service.
What we have become is all the bad parts of the USA, with none of the good
bits.

Communism is about redistributing wealth from those who deserve it to
those who don't. Taxation to support non-jobs and fund unwanted
government expenditure is an example of such redistribution of wealth.
Therefore we are Communist in all but name.
Even if ideal Communism was implemented and everyone was equal, is it
best that genetically superior people would have the same number of
progeny and state-allocated resources as genetically inferior people?
Eventually it would lead to a population whose gene pool is utterly
infested with maladapted genes, such as various inheritable diseases,
genetic defects, poor consitution and feeblemindedness.

Whereas as those who are IQ deprived here in the UK have the largest
families, and start younger!

So are you suggesting a communist gene pool may have less maladapted genes
than ours?

November 5

2009-08-07 11:03:42 UTC

Post by Fredxx

Post by AlanG
It's about as communist as E Gemany in 1974

Share the sentiment, but really there's no comparison.
- Grey, bleak joyless GDR, shoddy goods and no imports, restricted
international travel for 99% of public. Private enterprise suppressed
except for private, secret benefit of powerful elite.
- Gaudy, commercialised UK, wasteful wealth is flaunted as a fashion,
highest quality goods freely available on very high street, international
travel cheap and easy for 99% of public. Private enterprise deified,
officially better than public service.
What we have become is all the bad parts of the USA, with none of the good
bits.

Communism is about redistributing wealth from those who deserve it to
those who don't. Taxation to support non-jobs and fund unwanted
government expenditure is an example of such redistribution of wealth.
Therefore we are Communist in all but name.
Even if ideal Communism was implemented and everyone was equal, is it
best that genetically superior people would have the same number of
progeny and state-allocated resources as genetically inferior people?
Eventually it would lead to a population whose gene pool is utterly
infested with maladapted genes, such as various inheritable diseases,
genetic defects, poor consitution and feeblemindedness.

Whereas as those who are IQ deprived here in the UK have the largest
families, and start younger!

Quite. In fact with a child benefits culture (particularly bad in
Sweden), it is possible to become a professional parent who just
breeds and raises children. This especially occurs in Muslim families
where the man can have up to four wives as per their religious
beliefs.

Post by Fredxx
So are you suggesting a communist gene pool may have less maladapted genes
than ours?

A communist gene pool will have more maladapted genes than one where
the parents and their offspring are left to sink or swim. If someone
is fit enough to support multiple children, let them prove it.

It may seem counterintuitive that a bit of cruelty now will spare much
more cumulative cruelty in the long run.

For example if the human rights of the first few HIV+ patients was
denied and they were summarily executed or quarantined in a legally
liberated society, the millions suffering from HIV today would never
have happened.

N5

AlanG

2009-08-07 13:02:23 UTC

Post by AlanG
It's about as communist as E Gemany in 1974

Grey bleak joyless UK in most towns and cities. Cheap shoddy goods for
the masses. Quality lifestyle for the masters. Creeping restrictions
on overseas travel. Control over association except in private. State
security officials permitted to hand out punishments. Voluntary and
self help groups now require state permission. Two classes of citizen.

Post by Steve Walker
- Gaudy, commercialised UK, wasteful wealth is flaunted as a fashion,
highest quality goods freely available on very high street, international
travel cheap and easy for 99% of public. Private enterprise deified,
officially better than public service.
What we have become is all the bad parts of the USA, with none of the good
bits.

But I have heard the USofA referred to as a fascist shithole. It might
have been Clarkson and he is rarely wholly wrong

Steve Walker

2009-08-07 19:27:40 UTC

Post by AlanG
It's about as communist as E Gemany in 1974

Mostly hyperbole. Let's take it point by point :

- Grey bleak joyless UK in most towns and cities -
Have you *been* in a town centre recently Alan? There's more gaudy
advertising, flashing neon and loud music than ever. You walk down row
after row of open, inviting chain restaurants & retailers, all selling goods
stacked high for relatively low prices. Horrible, banal crap, but not like
GDR in any way.

- Cheap shoddy goods for the masses -
Nonsense. Every chav wears Nikes and has a nice new polyphonic mobile.
The masses shop at Tesco, and buy thousands of iPods and iPhones every day.
Everyone can afford a healthy diet, the biggest problem is persuading them
to take it instead of gorging on junk food and lager. There are no cheap
rusty, rubbish cars (Moskvich, old Skoda, old BL), even the cheapest Kia is
a solid, reliable little runner. Basic-level electrical goods and
appliances are cheaper and better than even a decade ago.

- Quality lifestyle for the masters -
Agreed. But that's not a signifier of communism, just of wealth &
hierarchy.

- Creeping restrictions on overseas travel -
Not for the great majority, who can take £20 Ryanair flights to Riga
hen-nights any time they want. Certain minorities are being watched, and
we're all being surveilled more, but as long as you keep the party going and
show no sign of activism or rebellion they'll ignore you completely.

- State security officials permitted to hand out punishments -
Now you're completely off-piste. In GDR the Stazi could take your home, you
family or your work away with the wave of a hand, imprison and torture you,
with complete freedom. In UK today we have numerous little-hitlers giving
out their little tickets but that's nothing new, and it's always
challengeable in a court. To suggest a comparison is to demean the real
suffering of GDR people under the old regime.

- Voluntary and self help groups now require state permission -
Not true. There is a constant busybodying interference, but that's just
the English way (always has been, we must love it on some deep level or we
wouldn't allow it to continue).

- Two classes of citizen -
Actually more, but that's no different to any other nation in the world.

I agree with a lot of what you write Alan, but to suggest we are reduced to
GDR is Wolfie Smith naivety.

AlanG

2009-08-07 21:53:16 UTC

Post by AlanG
It's about as communist as E Gemany in 1974

- Grey bleak joyless UK in most towns and cities -
Have you *been* in a town centre recently Alan?

I live in one. Mostly clone shops and many of those are shut

Post by Steve Walker
There's more gaudy
advertising, flashing neon and loud music than ever. You walk down row
after row of open, inviting chain restaurants & retailers, all selling goods
stacked high for relatively low prices. Horrible, banal crap, but not like
GDR in any way.

The only difference is the crap is there

Post by Steve Walker
- Cheap shoddy goods for the masses -
Nonsense. Every chav wears Nikes and has a nice new polyphonic mobile.

Technology improves . Even the GDR had disposable razor blades

Post by Steve Walker
The masses shop at Tesco, and buy thousands of iPods and iPhones every day.
Everyone can afford a healthy diet, the biggest problem is persuading them
to take it instead of gorging on junk food and lager. There are no cheap
rusty, rubbish cars (Moskvich, old Skoda, old BL), even the cheapest Kia is
a solid, reliable little runner. Basic-level electrical goods and
appliances are cheaper and better than even a decade ago.
- Quality lifestyle for the masters -
Agreed. But that's not a signifier of communism, just of wealth &
hierarchy.

I didn't call it communism. Just compared the UK to 1974 E Germany

Post by Steve Walker
- Creeping restrictions on overseas travel -
Not for the great majority, who can take £20 Ryanair flights to Riga
hen-nights any time they want. Certain minorities are being watched, and
we're all being surveilled more, but as long as you keep the party going and
show no sign of activism or rebellion they'll ignore you completely.

For now. Travel outside the UK is a concession where it used to be a
right

Post by Steve Walker
- State security officials permitted to hand out punishments -
Now you're completely off-piste. In GDR the Stazi could take your home, you
family or your work away with the wave of a hand, imprison and torture you,
with complete freedom.

It appears to be happening today. And they can kill you with complete
freedom.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7745773.stm

Post by Steve Walker
In UK today we have numerous little-hitlers giving
out their little tickets but that's nothing new, and it's always
challengeable in a court. To suggest a comparison is to demean the real
suffering of GDR people under the old regime.

It's 30 years later. The similarities are still there

Post by Steve Walker
- Voluntary and self help groups now require state permission -
Not true.

Yes it is. Most volunteers arfe required by law to be CRB checked.

Post by Steve Walker
There is a constant busybodying interference, but that's just
the English way (always has been, we must love it on some deep level or we
wouldn't allow it to continue).
- Two classes of citizen -
Actually more, but that's no different to any other nation in the world.
I agree with a lot of what you write Alan, but to suggest we are reduced to
GDR is Wolfie Smith naivety.

It's only a matter of degree. The fact the touch is softer doesn't
alter the fact>

Mike

2009-08-07 23:17:51 UTC

Not much different from the UK police. Admittedly they have to fabricate a bit
of "evidence" to get a magistrate to take away your home (closure order IIRC),
but they can take away your work by seizing the tools of your trade in a S18
search; they can imprison you without cause ("kettling"); torture you (with a
Taser); assault you; or kill you (Harry Stanley, Jean Charles de Menezes, James
Ashley et al.) - all with almost complete impunity.

Post by Steve Walker
In UK today we have numerous little-hitlers giving
out their little tickets but that's nothing new, and it's always
challengeable in a court.

Only by those who can afford (in both time and money) to do so.

--
Mike

®i©ardo

2009-08-27 08:23:46 UTC

Post by Ian Jackson
In message

Post by November 5
No. Run (from the UK) while you can!

Where to though?

Obviously, that depends on your personal beliefs and personal
circumstance.
Most people will not have the mobility that they had before the credit
crunch simply because they can't sell their home and leave, especially
with it being in negative equity.
The usual Anglo destinations like the USA, Canada and Australia are
quickly turning into countries with governments that obsessively
meddle and legislate. The UK's rush to become a Communist police state
is the quickest of all, though.

I disagree completely. It's not 'Communist'.

Nothing ever is, is it? The followers of "communism" have more
apologists as to why it isn't what it claims to be than there are people
in the UK. Still, it proves that it has never worked to date and never will.

--
Moving things in still pictures

Judith M Smith

2009-08-06 15:08:15 UTC

it is alive and well and on sale in Wilkinsons

--
Show your non-acceptance of Ian Jackson as the proposed chief moderator of URCM and the use of his chiark system.
Vote against the formation of the group.

Retired

2009-08-06 17:00:06 UTC

it is alive and well and on sale in Wilkinsons

I've ordered enough for the next few years on-line from Wilkinsons. Hope
they've got some left!
For a gravel drive and a block patio its far better than all the fancy weed
killers, Any that lands on the blocks or gravel gets washed into the soil
next time it rains and stops the weeds growing. All the others just kill
existing green weeds!
I suppose it is a ploy by the manufacturers of expensive products to get the
cheap stuff off the market, just like the German Government on behalf of VW
is trying to get it made compulsory that all cars are only serviced by
manufacturer approved garages.

B.E.

Norman Wells

2009-08-06 17:35:16 UTC

Post by Retired
I'm told that the use of this has now been banned; certainly I've
been unable to obtain any from local garden centres.
Does anyone know if this is true, or is it just a ploy to sell the
higher priced products?
B.E.

it is alive and well and on sale in Wilkinsons

I've ordered enough for the next few years on-line from Wilkinsons.
Hope they've got some left!

After 30 September 2009, it should no longer be available anywhere.

From 10 May 2010, you will be acting illegally if you use it or have any
stored up.

Post by Retired
For a gravel drive and a block patio its far better than all the
fancy weed killers, Any that lands on the blocks or gravel gets
washed into the soil next time it rains and stops the weeds growing.
All the others just kill existing green weeds!
I suppose it is a ploy by the manufacturers of expensive products to
get the cheap stuff off the market, just like the German Government
on behalf of VW is trying to get it made compulsory that all cars are
only serviced by manufacturer approved garages.

The official reason given is:

"there are clear indications that it may be expected that it has harmful
effects on human health, in particular taking into consideration the
unacceptable exposure to operators taking into account the proposed
provisional AOEL."

Ian Jackson

2009-08-06 19:02:16 UTC

Post by Norman Wells

Post by Retired
I'm told that the use of this has now been banned; certainly I've
been unable to obtain any from local garden centres.
Does anyone know if this is true, or is it just a ploy to sell the
higher priced products?
B.E.

it is alive and well and on sale in Wilkinsons

I've ordered enough for the next few years on-line from Wilkinsons.
Hope they've got some left!

After 30 September 2009, it should no longer be available anywhere.
From 10 May 2010, you will be acting illegally if you use it or have
any stored up.

"there are clear indications that it may be expected that it has
harmful effects on human health, in particular taking into
consideration the unacceptable exposure to operators taking into
account the proposed provisional AOEL."

The ordinary "man in the garden" used to be able to buy 25kg bags of
ferrous sulphate (the basic ingredient in moss killer). You can no
longer. The store told me it was EC rules, as it was poisonous (probably
as poisonous as common salt). But you can (sometimes) get 1kg boxes - at
about the same price that you used to pay for the 25kg. I can almost
hear my moss laughing when I arrive home with a 1kg box.

--
Ian

Robbie

2009-08-06 19:11:34 UTC

Post by Norman Wells

Post by Retired
I'm told that the use of this has now been banned; certainly I've
been unable to obtain any from local garden centres.
Does anyone know if this is true, or is it just a ploy to sell the
higher priced products?
B.E.

it is alive and well and on sale in Wilkinsons

I've ordered enough for the next few years on-line from Wilkinsons.
Hope they've got some left!

After 30 September 2009, it should no longer be available anywhere.
From 10 May 2010, you will be acting illegally if you use it or have
any stored up.

How much moss do you have?!

Ian Jackson

2009-08-06 19:24:08 UTC

Post by Robbie

Post by Norman Wells

Post by Retired
I'm told that the use of this has now been banned; certainly I've
been unable to obtain any from local garden centres.
Does anyone know if this is true, or is it just a ploy to sell the
higher priced products?
B.E.

it is alive and well and on sale in Wilkinsons

I've ordered enough for the next few years on-line from Wilkinsons.
Hope they've got some left!

After 30 September 2009, it should no longer be available anywhere.
From 10 May 2010, you will be acting illegally if you use it or have
any stored up.

The ordinary "man in the garden" used to be able to buy 25kg bags of
ferrous sulphate (the basic ingredient in moss killer). You can no
longer. The store told me it was EC rules, as it was poisonous
(probably as poisonous as common salt). But you can (sometimes) get
1kg boxes - at about the same price that you used to pay for the
25kg. I can almost hear my moss laughing when I arrive home with a 1kg box.

How much moss do you have?!

An unbelievable amount! The lawns (which are fairly large) have no real
topsoil. It's all clay and flint (with a fair number of bricks and
half-bricks thrown in for good measure). Turn your back, and moss has
sprung up everywhere, and displaced any grass which dared to grow there.

And then there's the roof (cement/concrete tiles). Large lumps of moss
everywhere. Without being scraped and sprayed with ferrous sulphate
solution (not some concoction which also contains a fertiliser) every
year or two, the moss would cover it completely. [I'm seriously thinking
of having it professionally cleaned and sealed].

--
Ian

Jethro

2009-08-06 18:18:02 UTC

it is alive and well and on sale in Wilkinsons

I've ordered enough for the next few years on-line from Wilkinsons. Hope
they've got some left!

Let's hope they don't report you as a terrorist ... remember when
chemical companies were required to report large sales of fertiliser ?

fred

2009-08-06 16:16:22 UTC

Withdrawn due to EEC ruling:

To be withdrawn from sale by 30th Sept.

http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/prc.asp?id=2623

The non-inclusion Decision, 2008/865/EC (pdf, 2 pages), for sodium
chlorate was published on 10 November 2008.

The UK has 14 professional products and 41 amateur products containing
sodium chlorate which must now be revoked in order to withdraw these
products from the market and comply with the EC Decision. The Revocation
Notices for professional and amateur products can be viewed on the PSD
website. The dates for withdrawal of plant protection products
containing sodium chlorate are also given below.

Professional Products:

Given approval until 10 May 2009 for the advertisement, sale and supply
by persons holding an approval for professional pesticide products.

Given approval until 30 September 2009 for the advertisement, sale and
supply by persons other than the approval holder.

Given approval until 10 May 2010 for storage and use by any persons.

Amateur Products:

Given approval until 10 May 2009 for the advertisement, sale and supply
by persons holding an approval for amateur pesticide products.

Given approval until 30 September 2009 for the advertisement, sale and
supply by persons other than the approval holder.

Given approval until 10 May 2010 for storage and use by any persons.
Keeping up-to-date

You can keep up-to-date with EC issues, including the result of voting
at the EC Standing Committee on the Food Chain and Animal Health by
checking the EC news page of the European section of our website.

--
fred
BBC3, ITV2/3/4, channels going to the DOGs

Mr Benn

2009-08-07 10:31:49 UTC

To be withdrawn from sale by 30th Sept.
http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/prc.asp?id=2623

What is the reason for withdrawing it from sale? It is quite safe now that
it is being sold with a fire retardant.

Peter Crosland

2009-08-07 11:01:53 UTC

To be withdrawn from sale by 30th Sept.
http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/prc.asp?id=2623

What is the reason for withdrawing it from sale? It is quite safe now
that it is being sold with a fire retardant.

It is actually very toxic to humans and wildlife which is why it is being
banned.

http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/uploadedfiles/Web_Assets/PSD/chlorate_decision_2008_865_EC.pdf
tells you more.

Peter Crosland

Mr Benn

2009-08-07 11:37:04 UTC

Post by Peter Crosland

To be withdrawn from sale by 30th Sept.
http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/prc.asp?id=2623

What is the reason for withdrawing it from sale? It is quite safe now
that it is being sold with a fire retardant.

It is actually very toxic to humans and wildlife which is why it is being
banned.
http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/uploadedfiles/Web_Assets/PSD/chlorate_decision_2008_865_EC.pdf
tells you more.
Peter Crosland

Thanks Peter

I hadn't realised that it was particularly toxic but can appreciate the
problems with it contaminating groundwater.

So when NaClO3 is no longer avalable, what is the next cheapest weedkiller
to use on paths & driveways? Some of them are very expensive compared to
sodium chlorate.

Peter Crosland

2009-08-07 12:06:57 UTC

Post by Peter Crosland

To be withdrawn from sale by 30th Sept.
http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/prc.asp?id=2623

What is the reason for withdrawing it from sale? It is quite safe now
that it is being sold with a fire retardant.

It is actually very toxic to humans and wildlife which is why it is being
banned.
http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/uploadedfiles/Web_Assets/PSD/chlorate_decision_2008_865_EC.pdf
tells you more.
Peter Crosland

Thanks Peter
I hadn't realised that it was particularly toxic but can appreciate the
problems with it contaminating groundwater.
So when NaClO3 is no longer avalable, what is the next cheapest weedkiller
to use on paths & driveways? Some of them are very expensive compared to
sodium chlorate.

You will not find anything as cheap. The best thing is probably something
based on glyphosphate which is a systemic herbicide that is absorbed into
the plant. Now that the Monsanto patent has expired the price has come down
but is still not a cheap alternative.

Peter Crosland

November 5

2009-08-07 12:32:06 UTC

Post by Peter Crosland

To be withdrawn from sale by 30th Sept.
http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/prc.asp?id=2623

What is the reason for withdrawing it from sale? It is quite safe now
that it is being sold with a fire retardant.

It is actually very toxic to humans and wildlife which is why it is being
banned.
http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/uploadedfiles/Web_Assets/PSD/chlorate_decision_2008_865_EC.pdf
tells you more.
Peter Crosland

Sodium chlorate is simply an oxidiser that reverts to salt once it is
spent.

In any case, surely if it is toxic it is then the user's
responsibility to use it with caution?

Do nanny state governments expect to micromanage us to the point that
they remove every possible item that might cause injury or death?

How convenient that the items which may be dangerous to us are also
what might be dangerous to them.

N5

AlanG

2009-08-06 18:03:03 UTC

Yes it has been banned from this September. I stocked up with a couple
of kilos. Should keep my yard and path clear for the next ten years

Bob Ferguson

2009-08-24 13:06:19 UTC

Yes it has been banned from this September. I stocked up with a couple
of kilos. Should keep my yard and path clear for the next ten years

Illegal to possess it from next year.

Svenne

2009-08-25 16:17:38 UTC

On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 14:06:19 +0100, "Bob Ferguson"

Yes it has been banned from this September. I stocked up with a couple
of kilos. Should keep my yard and path clear for the next ten years

Illegal to possess it from next year.

I'm not surprised, it makes one hell of a bang when mixed with sugar.
Me and my friends used to make bombs from it that we set off on waste
ground 50 years ago. We'd probably get life in Guantanamo if we did it
today.

We also used to make rockets powered by a mixture of charcoal, sulpher
and potassium nitrate. I suppose potassium nitrate is illegal today as
well.

Svenne

Ian Jackson

2009-08-25 16:31:09 UTC

Post by Svenne
On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 14:06:19 +0100, "Bob Ferguson"

Yes it has been banned from this September. I stocked up with a couple
of kilos. Should keep my yard and path clear for the next ten years

Illegal to possess it from next year.

For many years, domestic sodium chlorate has had something mixed in with
it which inhibits explosion.

Post by Svenne
We also used to make rockets powered by a mixture of charcoal, sulpher
and potassium nitrate. I suppose potassium nitrate is illegal today as
well.

I never had much success with that mixture - more of a 'smoulder' than a
'woosh' or a 'bang'. I think the formula was just something they put in
things like the Boys' Own Paper and the Eagle Annual, knowing that no
child would be likely to get seriously killed. No, sodium chlorate and
sugar was the stuff to use.

--
Ian

Cynic

2009-08-25 17:28:51 UTC

On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 17:31:09 +0100, Ian Jackson

Post by Svenne
We also used to make rockets powered by a mixture of charcoal, sulpher
and potassium nitrate. I suppose potassium nitrate is illegal today as
well.

I never had much success with that mixture - more of a 'smoulder' than a
'woosh' or a 'bang'.

It's gunpowder - probably the oldest explosive known.

It will not explode in the open however, but needs to be under a lot
of pressure to burn fast enough to be explosive. So you have to pack
it into a container that will withstand a fair bit of pressure before
finally exploding. The traditional container was a wooden barrel - or
tamped into a gun barrel with wadding.

All ingedients must be finely ground using e.g. a pestle & mortar.
Grind separately, not together, then mix well.

To make a "banger", make a tube of several layers of paper (masking
tape works), seal one end of the tube with a small plug of epoxy putty
or plaster of paris, tamp in the gunpowder tightly, and crimp the
other end tightly around a thin fuse. Any loosness around the fuse
will make it go off like a firework rocket instead of exploding.

--
Cynic

Svenne

2009-08-25 17:54:52 UTC

Post by Cynic
All ingedients must be finely ground using e.g. a pestle & mortar.
Grind separately, not together, then mix well.

I developed my own way of grinding and it made pretty good stuff.
After mixing the ingredients together I added a little water to make a
thick paste, I then ground the paste. After drying it set into a hard
block that easily crumbled into first class gunpowder. I suppose it's
even lïllegal for me to be posting this on usenet. Times have changed.

Svenne

Bob Ferguson

2009-09-02 10:03:25 UTC

Post by Cynic
On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 17:31:09 +0100, Ian Jackson

Post by Svenne
We also used to make rockets powered by a mixture of charcoal, sulpher
and potassium nitrate. I suppose potassium nitrate is illegal today as
well.

I never had much success with that mixture - more of a 'smoulder' than a
'woosh' or a 'bang'.

Not correct. Whilst any explosive compound or mixture will just burn if
unconfined, every explosive has a 'hypercritical' mass where the mass of the
explosive itself will provide the necessary confinement for an explosion to
take place (its actually a function of the velocity of deflagration,
density, makeup etc.). Most explosive compounds such a Dynamite, RDX, TNT
and the like have a velocity of deflagration that is comparatively low and
thus they have a very large hypercritical mass which makes what you posted
more or less correct for those explosives.

But gunpowder has a fairly high velocity of deflagration and consequently a
very low hypercritical mass. A tablespoonful of the stuff will just burn
very rapidly singeing your moustache in the process if you stand too close.
But a heap of just half a pound of the stuff will explode doing a
significant damage. A tablespoonful of potassium chlorate and white
phosphorous mixture well exceeds the hyprcritical mass for that mixture and
it is very good at making impressions of coins in steel plate (in a way that
few explosives can better).

Modern smokeless gun powders are made from explosive compounds (usually, but
not always, nitro cellulose and nitro glycerin mixture in a carrier material
in varying proportions). The one thing you don't want them to do is explode
(i.e. detonate) as you won't have much of the gun left. The confinement
increases the velocity of deflagration (and reduces the hypercritical mass).
The trick is to get the maximum velocity of deflagration comensurate with
not exceeding the maximum barrel pressure, and maintaining that deflagration
evenly for the whole duration that the projectile is in the barrel.
Counterintuitively, under charging the gun with smokeless powder can
increase the likelihood of detonation and destruction of the gun.

Cynic

2009-09-02 11:02:08 UTC

On Wed, 2 Sep 2009 11:03:25 +0100, "Bob Ferguson"

Post by Bob Ferguson
Not correct. Whilst any explosive compound or mixture will just burn if
unconfined, every explosive has a 'hypercritical' mass where the mass of the
explosive itself will provide the necessary confinement for an explosion to
take place (its actually a function of the velocity of deflagration,
density, makeup etc.). Most explosive compounds such a Dynamite, RDX, TNT
and the like have a velocity of deflagration that is comparatively low and
thus they have a very large hypercritical mass which makes what you posted
more or less correct for those explosives.
But gunpowder has a fairly high velocity of deflagration and consequently a
very low hypercritical mass. A tablespoonful of the stuff will just burn
very rapidly singeing your moustache in the process if you stand too close.
But a heap of just half a pound of the stuff will explode doing a
significant damage. A tablespoonful of potassium chlorate and white
phosphorous mixture well exceeds the hyprcritical mass for that mixture and
it is very good at making impressions of coins in steel plate (in a way that
few explosives can better).
Modern smokeless gun powders are made from explosive compounds (usually, but
not always, nitro cellulose and nitro glycerin mixture in a carrier material
in varying proportions). The one thing you don't want them to do is explode
(i.e. detonate) as you won't have much of the gun left. The confinement
increases the velocity of deflagration (and reduces the hypercritical mass).
The trick is to get the maximum velocity of deflagration comensurate with
not exceeding the maximum barrel pressure, and maintaining that deflagration
evenly for the whole duration that the projectile is in the barrel.
Counterintuitively, under charging the gun with smokeless powder can
increase the likelihood of detonation and destruction of the gun.

Interesting thanks for that.

I recall from army days that when a terrorist weapons cache was found,
instead of taking it, the engineers were called. They replaced the
powder in the AK47 rounds and mortar bombs with high-explosive and
fitted immediate detonation fuses to the grenades. Then the cache was
left for the terrorists to recover.

--
Cynic

Bob Ferguson

2009-08-27 13:21:33 UTC

Post by Svenne
On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 14:06:19 +0100, "Bob Ferguson"

Yes it has been banned from this September. I stocked up with a couple
of kilos. Should keep my yard and path clear for the next ten years

Illegal to possess it from next year.

For many years, domestic sodium chlorate has had something mixed in with
it which inhibits explosion.

Post by Svenne
We also used to make rockets powered by a mixture of charcoal, sulpher
and potassium nitrate. I suppose potassium nitrate is illegal today as
well.

Gunpowder is made from those ingredients, but it's manufacture is bit more
complex than just mixing them together. A simple mechanical mixture will
just burn. Properly made gunpowder will explode if more than the hyper
critical mass is present (actually a fairly small heap).

Sodium Chlorate and sugar was a rather sensitive mixture and many accidents
have occured while attempting to make it (including a boy at my school who
amputated all the fingers of one hand and 2 from the other when he attempted
it). Sodium Chlorate and sulphur gave just as good a bang but was a good
deal less sensitive. Modern Sodium Chlorate doesn't work with sulphur
either.

Mr Benn

2009-08-26 13:07:54 UTC

Post by Svenne
We also used to make rockets powered by a mixture of charcoal, sulpher
and potassium nitrate. I suppose potassium nitrate is illegal today as
well.

You can still buy it. Apparently, it is still used for preserving meat! It
is definitely illegal to make your own explosives of course.

Ian Jackson

2009-08-26 13:11:50 UTC

Post by Svenne
We also used to make rockets powered by a mixture of charcoal, sulpher
and potassium nitrate. I suppose potassium nitrate is illegal today as
well.

You can still buy it. Apparently, it is still used for preserving meat! It
is definitely illegal to make your own explosives of course.

Surely it depends what you intend to use your explosives for?

--
Ian

Bob Ferguson

2009-09-02 10:08:03 UTC

Post by Svenne
We also used to make rockets powered by a mixture of charcoal, sulpher
and potassium nitrate. I suppose potassium nitrate is illegal today as
well.

You can still buy it. Apparently, it is still used for preserving meat!
It is definitely illegal to make your own explosives of course.

Under what legislation?

An explosives licence doesn't actually licence you to possess explosives.
It only licences you to *acquire* explosives. It is quite legal in
principle to possess the exlosive so acquired after the licence has expired,
but this does imply that the explosive was acquired for some legitimate
purpose.

Mr Benn

2009-09-02 10:23:06 UTC

Post by Svenne
We also used to make rockets powered by a mixture of charcoal, sulpher
and potassium nitrate. I suppose potassium nitrate is illegal today as
well.

You can still buy it. Apparently, it is still used for preserving meat!
It is definitely illegal to make your own explosives of course.

Under what legislation?

I don't know, I had assumed that it would be illegal to make explosives
without a licence but I may well be wrong.

Post by Bob Ferguson
An explosives licence doesn't actually licence you to possess explosives.
It only licences you to *acquire* explosives. It is quite legal in
principle to possess the exlosive so acquired after the licence has
expired, but this does imply that the explosive was acquired for some
legitimate purpose.

Would making explosives be the same as aquiring them?

Bob Ferguson

2009-09-03 10:49:51 UTC

Post by Svenne
We also used to make rockets powered by a mixture of charcoal, sulpher
and potassium nitrate. I suppose potassium nitrate is illegal today as
well.

You can still buy it. Apparently, it is still used for preserving meat!
It is definitely illegal to make your own explosives of course.

Under what legislation?

I don't know, I had assumed that it would be illegal to make explosives
without a licence but I may well be wrong.

Would making explosives be the same as aquiring them?

Well chemistry teachers do it all the time. I have all the harder to source
ingredients necessary to manufacture Nitrogen Tri-iodide not to mention
Nitro-Glycerin, Nitro Cellulose and even a very passable plastic explosive
(the ingredients that I haven't got are easily sourceable in my local high
street). However, I chose not to.

Mr Benn

2009-08-26 13:11:41 UTC

Post by Svenne
On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 14:06:19 +0100, "Bob Ferguson"