Legality of stun guns and shock knives

[Colin Smith]

Hi,

I wonder if anyone can help with the definition of a weapon.

I am aware that stun guns are illegal in the UK, but there are a class
of self defence training tools called "shock knives" which work in a
very similar manner to a stun gun but are not specifically designed as
a weapon.

for example:
www.shocknife.com

Explanation:

One of the problems with self defence training is that it is
unrealistic. It is performed in a safe environment, slowly, with
unresisting partners usually. It means that much of the martial arts
self defence techniques taught are just as unrealistic and may even
increase the chance of getting you hurt should you attempt to use
them. So there is a need for the introduction of some realism which
can rule out dangerous or useless techniques. With unarmed training
this is relatively simple, however it's a completely different matter
when training involves knife defence.

Most self defence teachers and training uses rubber or plastic
replicas, but there is no realism there. They are blunt, don't hurt
and it is easy to develop techniques which would get you killed if the
knife was real. This is why shock knives were invented. They are much
lower voltage than stun guns (7500 volts vs 100,000) but still deliver
a painful electrical shock which tells you you have been "cut" and
increases your adrenal response more in line with a real situation.

Illegal/not? Stun guns yes, they have a specific purpose of
disabling someone. Shock knife uses exactly the same technology, lower
voltage and only delivers pain.

Any enlightenment welcome.

Regards,
Colin.

[Mrcheerful]

Post by Colin Smith
Hi,
I wonder if anyone can help with the definition of a weapon.
I am aware that stun guns are illegal in the UK, but there are a class
of self defence training tools called "shock knives" which work in a
very similar manner to a stun gun but are not specifically designed as
a weapon.
www.shocknife.com
One of the problems with self defence training is that it is
unrealistic. It is performed in a safe environment, slowly, with
unresisting partners usually. It means that much of the martial arts
self defence techniques taught are just as unrealistic and may even
increase the chance of getting you hurt should you attempt to use
them. So there is a need for the introduction of some realism which
can rule out dangerous or useless techniques. With unarmed training
this is relatively simple, however it's a completely different matter
when training involves knife defence.
Most self defence teachers and training uses rubber or plastic
replicas, but there is no realism there. They are blunt, don't hurt
and it is easy to develop techniques which would get you killed if the
knife was real. This is why shock knives were invented. They are much
lower voltage than stun guns (7500 volts vs 100,000) but still deliver
a painful electrical shock which tells you you have been "cut" and
increases your adrenal response more in line with a real situation.
Illegal/not? Stun guns yes, they have a specific purpose of
disabling someone. Shock knife uses exactly the same technology, lower
voltage and only delivers pain.
Any enlightenment welcome.
Regards,
Colin.

it is an offensive weapon, it has no other purpose.

["=> Reality Check©]

Post by Colin Smith
Hi,
I wonder if anyone can help with the definition of a weapon.
I am aware that stun guns are illegal in the UK, but there are a class
of self defence training tools called "shock knives" which work in a
very similar manner to a stun gun but are not specifically designed as
a weapon.
www.shocknife.com
One of the problems with self defence training is that it is
unrealistic. It is performed in a safe environment, slowly, with
unresisting partners usually. It means that much of the martial arts
self defence techniques taught are just as unrealistic and may even
increase the chance of getting you hurt should you attempt to use
them. So there is a need for the introduction of some realism which
can rule out dangerous or useless techniques. With unarmed training
this is relatively simple, however it's a completely different matter
when training involves knife defence.
Most self defence teachers and training uses rubber or plastic
replicas, but there is no realism there. They are blunt, don't hurt
and it is easy to develop techniques which would get you killed if the
knife was real. This is why shock knives were invented. They are much
lower voltage than stun guns (7500 volts vs 100,000) but still deliver
a painful electrical shock which tells you you have been "cut" and
increases your adrenal response more in line with a real situation.
Illegal/not? Stun guns yes, they have a specific purpose of
disabling someone. Shock knife uses exactly the same technology, lower
voltage and only delivers pain.
Any enlightenment welcome.
Regards,
Colin.

[Peter Crosland]

Post by Colin Smith
I wonder if anyone can help with the definition of a weapon.
I am aware that stun guns are illegal in the UK, but there are a class
of self defence training tools called "shock knives" which work in a
very similar manner to a stun gun but are not specifically designed as
a weapon.
www.shocknife.com
One of the problems with self defence training is that it is
unrealistic. It is performed in a safe environment, slowly, with
unresisting partners usually. It means that much of the martial arts
self defence techniques taught are just as unrealistic and may even
increase the chance of getting you hurt should you attempt to use
them. So there is a need for the introduction of some realism which
can rule out dangerous or useless techniques. With unarmed training
this is relatively simple, however it's a completely different matter
when training involves knife defence.
Most self defence teachers and training uses rubber or plastic
replicas, but there is no realism there. They are blunt, don't hurt
and it is easy to develop techniques which would get you killed if the
knife was real. This is why shock knives were invented. They are much
lower voltage than stun guns (7500 volts vs 100,000) but still deliver
a painful electrical shock which tells you you have been "cut" and
increases your adrenal response more in line with a real situation.
Illegal/not? Stun guns yes, they have a specific purpose of
disabling someone. Shock knife uses exactly the same technology, lower
voltage and only delivers pain.

Clearly an offensive weapon under UK law.

Peter Crosland

[Blah]

Post by Peter Crosland

Post by Colin Smith
I wonder if anyone can help with the definition of a weapon.
I am aware that stun guns are illegal in the UK, but there are a class
of self defence training tools called "shock knives" which work in a
very similar manner to a stun gun but are not specifically designed as
a weapon.
www.shocknife.com
One of the problems with self defence training is that it is
unrealistic. It is performed in a safe environment, slowly, with
unresisting partners usually. It means that much of the martial arts
self defence techniques taught are just as unrealistic and may even
increase the chance of getting you hurt should you attempt to use
them. So there is a need for the introduction of some realism which
can rule out dangerous or useless techniques. With unarmed training
this is relatively simple, however it's a completely different matter
when training involves knife defence.
Most self defence teachers and training uses rubber or plastic
replicas, but there is no realism there. They are blunt, don't hurt
and it is easy to develop techniques which would get you killed if the
knife was real. This is why shock knives were invented. They are much
lower voltage than stun guns (7500 volts vs 100,000) but still deliver
a painful electrical shock which tells you you have been "cut" and
increases your adrenal response more in line with a real situation.
Illegal/not? Stun guns yes, they have a specific purpose of
disabling someone. Shock knife uses exactly the same technology, lower
voltage and only delivers pain.

Clearly an offensive weapon under UK law.
Peter Crosland

Why? No edge, and the stinging power of a bunch of nettles.
Are nettles an offensive weapons these days?

[Janitor of Lunacy]

Post by Blah

Post by Peter Crosland

Post by Colin Smith
I wonder if anyone can help with the definition of a weapon.
I am aware that stun guns are illegal in the UK, but there are a
class of self defence training tools called "shock knives" which
work in a very similar manner to a stun gun but are not
specifically designed as a weapon.
www.shocknife.com
One of the problems with self defence training is that it is
unrealistic. It is performed in a safe environment, slowly, with
unresisting partners usually. It means that much of the martial arts
self defence techniques taught are just as unrealistic and may even
increase the chance of getting you hurt should you attempt to use
them. So there is a need for the introduction of some realism which
can rule out dangerous or useless techniques. With unarmed training
this is relatively simple, however it's a completely different
matter when training involves knife defence.
Most self defence teachers and training uses rubber or plastic
replicas, but there is no realism there. They are blunt, don't hurt
and it is easy to develop techniques which would get you killed if
the knife was real. This is why shock knives were invented. They
are much lower voltage than stun guns (7500 volts vs 100,000) but
still deliver a painful electrical shock which tells you you have
been "cut" and increases your adrenal response more in line with a
real situation. Illegal/not? Stun guns yes, they have a specific purpose
of
disabling someone. Shock knife uses exactly the same technology,
lower voltage and only delivers pain.

Clearly an offensive weapon under UK law.
Peter Crosland

Why? No edge, and the stinging power of a bunch of nettles.
Are nettles an offensive weapons these days?

They can be.

Caselaw dealing with the Prevention of Crime Act 1953, which first
introduced the concept of "offensive weapon", has defined three
classifications of offensive weapon:

1. Articles *manufactured* for the purpose of causing physical harm; guns,
tasers and swords clearly fall within this definition.
2. Articles *adapted* for the purpose of causing physical harm; the
classical example (again, from the 1950s) is a potato into which razor
blades have been inserted before being thrown. Very nasty.
3. Articles *intended* by the carrier for the purpose of causing physical
harm; wide enough to include a salami- or a bunch of nettles, if the intent
can be proved.

[Blah]

Post by Janitor of Lunacy

Post by Blah

Post by Peter Crosland

Post by Colin Smith
I wonder if anyone can help with the definition of a weapon.
I am aware that stun guns are illegal in the UK, but there are a
class of self defence training tools called "shock knives" which
work in a very similar manner to a stun gun but are not
specifically designed as a weapon.
www.shocknife.com
One of the problems with self defence training is that it is
unrealistic. It is performed in a safe environment, slowly, with
unresisting partners usually. It means that much of the martial arts
self defence techniques taught are just as unrealistic and may even
increase the chance of getting you hurt should you attempt to use
them. So there is a need for the introduction of some realism which
can rule out dangerous or useless techniques. With unarmed training
this is relatively simple, however it's a completely different
matter when training involves knife defence.
Most self defence teachers and training uses rubber or plastic
replicas, but there is no realism there. They are blunt, don't hurt
and it is easy to develop techniques which would get you killed if
the knife was real. This is why shock knives were invented. They
are much lower voltage than stun guns (7500 volts vs 100,000) but
still deliver a painful electrical shock which tells you you have
been "cut" and increases your adrenal response more in line with a
real situation. Illegal/not? Stun guns yes, they have a specific purpose
of
disabling someone. Shock knife uses exactly the same technology,
lower voltage and only delivers pain.

Clearly an offensive weapon under UK law.
Peter Crosland

Why? No edge, and the stinging power of a bunch of nettles.
Are nettles an offensive weapons these days?

They can be.
Caselaw dealing with the Prevention of Crime Act 1953, which first
introduced the concept of "offensive weapon", has defined three
1. Articles *manufactured* for the purpose of causing physical harm; guns,
tasers and swords clearly fall within this definition.
2. Articles *adapted* for the purpose of causing physical harm; the
classical example (again, from the 1950s) is a potato into which razor
blades have been inserted before being thrown. Very nasty.
3. Articles *intended* by the carrier for the purpose of causing physical
harm; wide enough to include a salami- or a bunch of nettles, if the intent
can be proved.

And the harm is where?

[Janitor of Lunacy]

Post by Blah

Post by Janitor of Lunacy

Post by Blah

Post by Peter Crosland

Post by Colin Smith
I wonder if anyone can help with the definition of a weapon.
I am aware that stun guns are illegal in the UK, but there are a
class of self defence training tools called "shock knives" which
work in a very similar manner to a stun gun but are not
specifically designed as a weapon.
www.shocknife.com
One of the problems with self defence training is that it is
unrealistic. It is performed in a safe environment, slowly, with
unresisting partners usually. It means that much of the martial
arts self defence techniques taught are just as unrealistic and
may even increase the chance of getting you hurt should you
attempt to use them. So there is a need for the introduction of some
realism
which can rule out dangerous or useless techniques. With unarmed
training this is relatively simple, however it's a completely
different matter when training involves knife defence.
Most self defence teachers and training uses rubber or plastic
replicas, but there is no realism there. They are blunt, don't
hurt and it is easy to develop techniques which would get you killed
if
the knife was real. This is why shock knives were invented. They
are much lower voltage than stun guns (7500 volts vs 100,000) but
still deliver a painful electrical shock which tells you you have
been "cut" and increases your adrenal response more in line with a
real situation. Illegal/not? Stun guns yes, they have a specific
purpose of
disabling someone. Shock knife uses exactly the same technology,
lower voltage and only delivers pain.

Clearly an offensive weapon under UK law.
Peter Crosland

Why? No edge, and the stinging power of a bunch of nettles.
Are nettles an offensive weapons these days?

They can be.
Caselaw dealing with the Prevention of Crime Act 1953, which first
introduced the concept of "offensive weapon", has defined three
1. Articles *manufactured* for the purpose of causing physical harm;
guns, tasers and swords clearly fall within this definition.
2. Articles *adapted* for the purpose of causing physical harm; the
classical example (again, from the 1950s) is a potato into which
razor blades have been inserted before being thrown. Very nasty.
3. Articles *intended* by the carrier for the purpose of causing
physical harm; wide enough to include a salami- or a bunch of
nettles, if the intent can be proved.

And the harm is where?

In missing the point of how an "offensive weapon" is defined in law. Give me
your addresss, and I'll come round armed with a razor-blade strewn potato
with the intention of throwing it at you; if I'm stopped, I will be quite
rightly arrested. If I'm not, is your face worth arguning the toss? I doubt
it. Get real.

[Aidy]

Post by Blah
And the harm is where?

Eh, in the OP?

"deliver a painful electrical shock"

[Francis Burton]

Post by Aidy

Post by Blah
And the harm is where?

Eh, in the OP?
"deliver a painful electrical shock"

But is that physical harm (rather than mental)?

Francis

[Aidy]

Post by Francis Burton
But is that physical harm (rather than mental)?

Is a slap across the face physical harm?

[Francis Burton]

Post by Aidy

Post by Francis Burton
But is that physical harm (rather than mental)?

Is a slap across the face physical harm?

I would say it depends - though I see where you are heading.

Francis

[Mike Ross]

Post by Aidy

Post by Francis Burton
But is that physical harm (rather than mental)?

Is a slap across the face physical harm?

It may very well be. Are boxing gloves only available on the black market?

Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'

["=> Reality Check©]

Post by Janitor of Lunacy

Post by Blah

Post by Peter Crosland

Post by Colin Smith
I wonder if anyone can help with the definition of a weapon.
I am aware that stun guns are illegal in the UK, but there are a
class of self defence training tools called "shock knives" which
work in a very similar manner to a stun gun but are not
specifically designed as a weapon.
www.shocknife.com
One of the problems with self defence training is that it is
unrealistic. It is performed in a safe environment, slowly, with
unresisting partners usually. It means that much of the martial arts
self defence techniques taught are just as unrealistic and may even
increase the chance of getting you hurt should you attempt to use
them. So there is a need for the introduction of some realism which
can rule out dangerous or useless techniques. With unarmed training
this is relatively simple, however it's a completely different
matter when training involves knife defence.
Most self defence teachers and training uses rubber or plastic
replicas, but there is no realism there. They are blunt, don't hurt
and it is easy to develop techniques which would get you killed if
the knife was real. This is why shock knives were invented. They
are much lower voltage than stun guns (7500 volts vs 100,000) but
still deliver a painful electrical shock which tells you you have
been "cut" and increases your adrenal response more in line with a
real situation. Illegal/not? Stun guns yes, they have a specific
purpose of
disabling someone. Shock knife uses exactly the same technology,
lower voltage and only delivers pain.

Clearly an offensive weapon under UK law.
Peter Crosland

Why? No edge, and the stinging power of a bunch of nettles.
Are nettles an offensive weapons these days?

They can be.
Caselaw dealing with the Prevention of Crime Act 1953, which first
introduced the concept of "offensive weapon", has defined three
1. Articles *manufactured* for the purpose of causing physical harm; guns,
tasers and swords clearly fall within this definition.
2. Articles *adapted* for the purpose of causing physical harm; the
classical example (again, from the 1950s) is a potato into which razor
blades have been inserted before being thrown. Very nasty.
3. Articles *intended* by the carrier for the purpose of causing physical
harm; wide enough to include a salami- or a bunch of nettles, if the
intent can be proved.

I intend my superior intellect to cause harm to idiots like you.

[Colin Smith]

Post by Janitor of Lunacy
1. Articles *manufactured* for the purpose of causing physical harm; guns,
tasers and swords clearly fall within this definition.

ok

This is I guess my problem. The shocknife is specifically designed and
manufactured to avoid causing physical harm. It's a training aid; if
you hurt yourself training, you can't train. It's important that
training is safe even within the requirement for as much realism as is
possible. Sure, you could poke someone's eye out, but it even comes
with goggles to prevent that. If you look edge on to the device in the
photos on the web site, you'll see it's blunt and made of plastic. The
device itself is physically no more dangerous than any of the existing
plastic or rubber knives which are already available. The difference
is solely the ability to apply a painful electric shock when the
"edge" is touched.

One of the prime users of these devices are the police in the US.

Thanks for the pointer to the act. My next question is so who
interprets the act, apart from the courts? I don't really fancy going
to court over the use of one of these devices, but they could be very
useful.

I suppose I should point out that it's possible to pick up a whole
load of other training gear which might be interpreted as an offensive
weapon, or not, depending on the circumstance; tonfa, sai, nunchaku,
bo and jo staffs etc.

Regards,
Colin.

[Mrcheerful]

Post by Colin Smith

Post by Janitor of Lunacy
1. Articles *manufactured* for the purpose of causing physical harm;
guns, tasers and swords clearly fall within this definition.

ok
This is I guess my problem. The shocknife is specifically designed and
manufactured to avoid causing physical harm. It's a training aid; if
you hurt yourself training, you can't train. It's important that
training is safe even within the requirement for as much realism as is
possible. Sure, you could poke someone's eye out, but it even comes
with goggles to prevent that. If you look edge on to the device in the
photos on the web site, you'll see it's blunt and made of plastic. The
device itself is physically no more dangerous than any of the existing
plastic or rubber knives which are already available. The difference
is solely the ability to apply a painful electric shock when the
"edge" is touched.
One of the prime users of these devices are the police in the US.
Thanks for the pointer to the act. My next question is so who
interprets the act, apart from the courts? I don't really fancy going
to court over the use of one of these devices, but they could be very
useful.
I suppose I should point out that it's possible to pick up a whole
load of other training gear which might be interpreted as an offensive
weapon, or not, depending on the circumstance; tonfa, sai, nunchaku,
bo and jo staffs etc.
Regards,
Colin.

Some of the above I am sure are illegal to carry in a public place (nunchuks
come to mind) in any circs. others would depend upon intended use.

[Colin Smith]

Post by Mrcheerful
Some of the above I am sure are illegal to carry in a public place (nunchuks
come to mind) in any circs. others would depend upon intended use.

That's fine, the question is simple possession and use in training.
The items themselves are only used in a training hall.

If a trainer takes the implement to a training hall, demonstrates how
it works and the purpose to his students and then organizes training
such that each student both uses and defends against the shocknife.
Would he be breaking the law, not being a public place?

Who decides these things anyway? Stun guns were fairly quickly made
illegal, was that an act of parliament or does the home secretary get
to decide? The courts?


regards,
Colin.

[Blah]

Post by Colin Smith

Post by Mrcheerful
Some of the above I am sure are illegal to carry in a public place (nunchuks
come to mind) in any circs. others would depend upon intended use.

That's fine, the question is simple possession and use in training.
The items themselves are only used in a training hall.
If a trainer takes the implement to a training hall, demonstrates how
it works and the purpose to his students and then organizes training
such that each student both uses and defends against the shocknife.
Would he be breaking the law, not being a public place?
Who decides these things anyway? Stun guns were fairly quickly made
illegal, was that an act of parliament or does the home secretary get
to decide? The courts?
regards,
Colin.

I think you've answered you're own question - take them too and from the
hall in a locked case so they cannot be seen as 'ready to use', much
like a butcher is advised to do with his knives on the way to work.

Also, take a flyer for the device into your local cop shop and ask them.

[Peter Crosland]

Post by Colin Smith

Post by Mrcheerful
Some of the above I am sure are illegal to carry in a public place (nunchuks
come to mind) in any circs. others would depend upon intended use.

That's fine, the question is simple possession and use in training.
The items themselves are only used in a training hall.
If a trainer takes the implement to a training hall, demonstrates how
it works and the purpose to his students and then organizes training
such that each student both uses and defends against the shocknife.
Would he be breaking the law, not being a public place?
Who decides these things anyway? Stun guns were fairly quickly made
illegal, was that an act of parliament or does the home secretary get
to decide? The courts?

Almost anything can be an offensive weapon if it is used as such. This link
gives some examples.

http://www.thesite.org/homelawandmoney/law/weaponscrime/weaponsandthelaw

Peter Crosland

[Ian Jackson]

Post by Peter Crosland

Post by Colin Smith

Post by Mrcheerful
Some of the above I am sure are illegal to carry in a public place (nunchuks
come to mind) in any circs. others would depend upon intended use.

That's fine, the question is simple possession and use in training.
The items themselves are only used in a training hall.
If a trainer takes the implement to a training hall, demonstrates how
it works and the purpose to his students and then organizes training
such that each student both uses and defends against the shocknife.
Would he be breaking the law, not being a public place?
Who decides these things anyway? Stun guns were fairly quickly made
illegal, was that an act of parliament or does the home secretary get
to decide? The courts?

Almost anything can be an offensive weapon if it is used as such. This link
gives some examples.
http://www.thesite.org/homelawandmoney/law/weaponscrime/weaponsandthelaw

Useful information, but I think a bit of editing is required:

"It's an offence to carry any knife in public, even if you're not
behaving in a threatening manner, and you can face a penalty of two
year's imprisonment and a £5,000 fine for doing so."

Immediately followed by:
"Legal exceptions for carrying a knife

*Under certain circumstances, it's legal to be in possession of a knife
in public:

*If it's a tool of the trade (i.e. you work in catering or carpentry);
For religious reasons (i.e. a Sikh kirpan);
If it's a penknife (pocket or folding knife) less than three inches long
(although it may be considered offensive if carried for the purpose of
causing injury or harm)."

Which is true?

[Peter Crosland]

Post by Peter Crosland

Post by Colin Smith

Post by Mrcheerful
Some of the above I am sure are illegal to carry in a public place (nunchuks
come to mind) in any circs. others would depend upon intended use.

That's fine, the question is simple possession and use in training.
The items themselves are only used in a training hall.
If a trainer takes the implement to a training hall, demonstrates how
it works and the purpose to his students and then organizes training
such that each student both uses and defends against the shocknife.
Would he be breaking the law, not being a public place?
Who decides these things anyway? Stun guns were fairly quickly made
illegal, was that an act of parliament or does the home secretary get
to decide? The courts?

Almost anything can be an offensive weapon if it is used as such. This link
gives some examples.
http://www.thesite.org/homelawandmoney/law/weaponscrime/weaponsandthelaw

"It's an offence to carry any knife in public, even if you're not behaving
in a threatening manner, and you can face a penalty of two year's
imprisonment and a £5,000 fine for doing so."
"Legal exceptions for carrying a knife
*Under certain circumstances, it's legal to be in possession of a knife in
*If it's a tool of the trade (i.e. you work in catering or carpentry);
For religious reasons (i.e. a Sikh kirpan);
If it's a penknife (pocket or folding knife) less than three inches long
(although it may be considered offensive if carried for the purpose of
causing injury or harm)."
Which is true?

Both in certain circumstances. The reason for posting the link was to show
some of the examples of what an offensive weapon could be and nothing more.
I am sure the site authors did not intend it to a be anything other a than a
starting point for the basics on the subject. If you want a full
authoritative statement of the law on possessing knives then expect to do
some extensive research into lots of legislation and a mountain of case law
on the subject. The bottom line is that possession of a knife in public is
not something to be done unless you have a very good reason.

Peter Crosland

[Ian Jackson]

Post by Peter Crosland

Post by Peter Crosland

Post by Colin Smith

Post by Mrcheerful
Some of the above I am sure are illegal to carry in a public place (nunchuks
come to mind) in any circs. others would depend upon intended use.

That's fine, the question is simple possession and use in training.
The items themselves are only used in a training hall.
If a trainer takes the implement to a training hall, demonstrates how
it works and the purpose to his students and then organizes training
such that each student both uses and defends against the shocknife.
Would he be breaking the law, not being a public place?
Who decides these things anyway? Stun guns were fairly quickly made
illegal, was that an act of parliament or does the home secretary get
to decide? The courts?

Almost anything can be an offensive weapon if it is used as such. This link
gives some examples.
http://www.thesite.org/homelawandmoney/law/weaponscrime/weaponsandthelaw

"It's an offence to carry any knife in public, even if you're not behaving
in a threatening manner, and you can face a penalty of two year's
imprisonment and a £5,000 fine for doing so."
"Legal exceptions for carrying a knife
*Under certain circumstances, it's legal to be in possession of a knife in
*If it's a tool of the trade (i.e. you work in catering or carpentry);
For religious reasons (i.e. a Sikh kirpan);
If it's a penknife (pocket or folding knife) less than three inches long
(although it may be considered offensive if carried for the purpose of
causing injury or harm)."
Which is true?

Both in certain circumstances. The reason for posting the link was to show
some of the examples of what an offensive weapon could be and nothing more.
I am sure the site authors did not intend it to a be anything other a than a
starting point for the basics on the subject. If you want a full
authoritative statement of the law on possessing knives then expect to do
some extensive research into lots of legislation and a mountain of case law
on the subject. The bottom line is that possession of a knife in public is
not something to be done unless you have a very good reason.

As I said, the link is useful, but this bit of information could be
misleading. You cannot say that something is always illegal, then
belatedly say (in the next section) that there are exceptions! Sorry for
splitting hairs.

Could I also add that I don't think that you don't need a 'very good
reason' to carry a knife. All you need is a 'legal' reason, which should
simply be that you do not intend to use it as an offensive weapon. Or
would that not be considered to be a 'good enough' reason? [Sorry
again!].

[Peter Crosland]

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by Peter Crosland

Post by Peter Crosland

Post by Colin Smith

Post by Mrcheerful
Some of the above I am sure are illegal to carry in a public place (nunchuks
come to mind) in any circs. others would depend upon intended use.

That's fine, the question is simple possession and use in training.
The items themselves are only used in a training hall.
If a trainer takes the implement to a training hall, demonstrates how
it works and the purpose to his students and then organizes training
such that each student both uses and defends against the shocknife.
Would he be breaking the law, not being a public place?
Who decides these things anyway? Stun guns were fairly quickly made
illegal, was that an act of parliament or does the home secretary get
to decide? The courts?

Almost anything can be an offensive weapon if it is used as such. This link
gives some examples.
http://www.thesite.org/homelawandmoney/law/weaponscrime/weaponsandthelaw

"It's an offence to carry any knife in public, even if you're not behaving
in a threatening manner, and you can face a penalty of two year's
imprisonment and a £5,000 fine for doing so."
"Legal exceptions for carrying a knife
*Under certain circumstances, it's legal to be in possession of a knife in
*If it's a tool of the trade (i.e. you work in catering or carpentry);
For religious reasons (i.e. a Sikh kirpan);
If it's a penknife (pocket or folding knife) less than three inches long
(although it may be considered offensive if carried for the purpose of
causing injury or harm)."
Which is true?

Both in certain circumstances. The reason for posting the link was to show
some of the examples of what an offensive weapon could be and nothing more.
I am sure the site authors did not intend it to a be anything other a than a
starting point for the basics on the subject. If you want a full
authoritative statement of the law on possessing knives then expect to do
some extensive research into lots of legislation and a mountain of case law
on the subject. The bottom line is that possession of a knife in public is
not something to be done unless you have a very good reason.

As I said, the link is useful, but this bit of information could be
misleading. You cannot say that something is always illegal, then
belatedly say (in the next section) that there are exceptions! Sorry for
splitting hairs.

Well I am not the author of the site so why not take it up with those
responsible?

Post by Ian Jackson
Could I also add that I don't think that you don't need a 'very good
reason' to carry a knife. All you need is a 'legal' reason, which should
simply be that you do not intend to use it as an offensive weapon. Or
would that not be considered to be a 'good enough' reason? [Sorry again!].

Given the very real problem with knife crime I can only say that it would be
unwise to take any chances!

Peter Crosland

[Mrcheerful]

Post by Colin Smith

Post by Mrcheerful
Some of the above I am sure are illegal to carry in a public place
(nunchuks come to mind) in any circs. others would depend upon
intended use.

That's fine, the question is simple possession and use in training.
The items themselves are only used in a training hall.
If a trainer takes the implement to a training hall, demonstrates how
it works and the purpose to his students and then organizes training
such that each student both uses and defends against the shocknife.
Would he be breaking the law, not being a public place?
Who decides these things anyway? Stun guns were fairly quickly made
illegal, was that an act of parliament or does the home secretary get
to decide? The courts?

Problem is that the shocknife may be considered to be an illegal item (as a
stun gun is) in which case mere posession is an offence.

[Mike Ross]

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Colin Smith

Post by Mrcheerful
Some of the above I am sure are illegal to carry in a public place
(nunchuks come to mind) in any circs. others would depend upon
intended use.

That's fine, the question is simple possession and use in training.
The items themselves are only used in a training hall.
If a trainer takes the implement to a training hall, demonstrates how
it works and the purpose to his students and then organizes training
such that each student both uses and defends against the shocknife.
Would he be breaking the law, not being a public place?
Who decides these things anyway? Stun guns were fairly quickly made
illegal, was that an act of parliament or does the home secretary get
to decide? The courts?

Problem is that the shocknife may be considered to be an illegal item (as a
stun gun is) in which case mere posession is an offence.

People have kept saying that on this thread, but provided no explanation. Since
it's designed NOT to disable or cause ANY injury, how could it possibly be
considered an 'illegal item'?

Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'

[Mrcheerful]

Post by Mike Ross

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Colin Smith

Post by Mrcheerful
Some of the above I am sure are illegal to carry in a public place
(nunchuks come to mind) in any circs. others would depend upon
intended use.

That's fine, the question is simple possession and use in training.
The items themselves are only used in a training hall.
If a trainer takes the implement to a training hall, demonstrates
how it works and the purpose to his students and then organizes
training such that each student both uses and defends against the
shocknife. Would he be breaking the law, not being a public place?
Who decides these things anyway? Stun guns were fairly quickly made
illegal, was that an act of parliament or does the home secretary
get to decide? The courts?

Problem is that the shocknife may be considered to be an illegal
item (as a stun gun is) in which case mere posession is an offence.

People have kept saying that on this thread, but provided no
explanation. Since it's designed NOT to disable or cause ANY injury,
how could it possibly be considered an 'illegal item'?
Mike

Why do you not ask an authority about the legality of posession? Have you
actually tried to buy one? It looks as though they only sell to police and
similar institutions, I see that milpolice also sell extending batons,
another illegal item for the streets.

[Doug]

Post by Janitor of Lunacy

Post by Blah

Post by Peter Crosland

Post by Colin Smith
I wonder if anyone can help with the definition of a weapon.
I am aware that stun guns are illegal in the UK, but there are a
class of self defence training tools called "shock knives" which
work in a very similar manner to a stun gun but are not
specifically designed as a weapon.
www.shocknife.com
One of the problems with self defence training is that it is
unrealistic. It is performed in a safe environment, slowly, with
unresisting partners usually. It means that much of the martial arts
self defence techniques taught are just as unrealistic and may even
increase the chance of getting you hurt should you attempt to use
them. So there is a need for the introduction of some realism which
can rule out dangerous or useless techniques. With unarmed training
this is relatively simple, however it's a completely different
matter when training involves knife defence.
Most self defence teachers and training uses rubber or plastic
replicas, but there is no realism there. They are blunt, don't hurt
and it is easy to develop techniques which would get you killed if
the knife was real. This is why shock knives were invented. They
are much lower voltage than stun guns (7500 volts vs 100,000) but
still deliver a painful electrical shock which  tells you you have
been "cut" and increases your adrenal response more in line with a
real situation. Illegal/not? Stun guns yes, they have a specific purpose
of
disabling someone. Shock knife uses exactly the same technology,
lower voltage and only delivers pain.

Clearly an offensive weapon under UK law.
Peter Crosland

Why? No edge, and the stinging power of a bunch of nettles.
Are nettles an offensive weapons these days?

They can be.
Caselaw dealing with the Prevention of Crime Act 1953, which first
introduced the concept of "offensive weapon", has defined three
1. Articles *manufactured* for the purpose of causing physical harm; guns,
tasers and swords clearly fall within this definition.
2. Articles *adapted* for the purpose of causing physical harm; the
classical example (again, from the 1950s)  is a potato into which razor
blades have been inserted before being thrown. Very nasty.
3. Articles *intended* by the carrier for the purpose of causing physical
harm; wide enough to include a salami- or a bunch of nettles, if the intent
can be proved.

So clearly a motorist ramming a cyclist, however gently, is
deliberately using a car as an offensive weapon and should be punished
as such?

My experience is that they are not, even when in the presence of a
cop.

--
UK Radical Campaigns
www.zing.icom43.net
A driving licence is a licence to kill.

[Mike Ross]

Post by Peter Crosland

Post by Colin Smith
This is why shock knives were invented. They are much
lower voltage than stun guns (7500 volts vs 100,000) but still deliver
a painful electrical shock which tells you you have been "cut" and
increases your adrenal response more in line with a real situation.
Illegal/not? Stun guns yes, they have a specific purpose of
disabling someone. Shock knife uses exactly the same technology, lower
voltage and only delivers pain.

Clearly an offensive weapon under UK law.

On what basis? They don't appear to cause any injury (let alone serious injury
or death), just pain. If a shock knife is an offensive weapon, what about a
cane? A riding crop? Or a 'violet wand' (another pain-giving high-voltage
electrical toy; google it) as sometimes used by BDSM enthusiasts? All are openly
sold. Context would be everything; Any knife, shock or otherwise, might get you
in trouble in a nightclub. But as a training aid for martial arts enthusiasts
(or a toy for BDSM enthusiasts) I don't see why it wouldn't be legal to buy,
sell, and possess.

Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'

[Aidy]

what about a cane?

Manufacturerd to aid stability while walking

A riding crop?

Manufacturered to threaten a horse, or to be part of a dressage outfit.

Or a 'violet wand'

Manufacturered for entertainment purposes :)

If you intend to use any of these items in a harmful way outwith their
reasons for manufacturer then they do indeed become offensive weapons.

But as a training aid for martial arts enthusiasts
(or a toy for BDSM enthusiasts) I don't see why it wouldn't be legal to buy,
sell, and possess.

Probably not TBH, not if it could be proven you are actually using it for
self-defence training and the other person was aware of the what the device
does. If this was offensive per se then wouldn't boxing gloves also be
offensive per se?

[AndyW]

Post by Peter Crosland
Clearly an offensive weapon under UK law.

I'm not so sure.
I was gievn a 'shock game' for christmas a few years ago. It is a 4 player
reaction timer games where the last person to press (or the last 3 depending
on setting) gets a shock.
My son also got a shock laser game - like laser 'paintabll' but when you get
hit your guns gives ashock.

I think it would depend upon just how painful the shock was and the way in
which the training knife was used.
The shock game can be quite painful on the highest setting.

Andy

[Mrcheerful]

Post by Peter Crosland

Post by Colin Smith
I wonder if anyone can help with the definition of a weapon.
I am aware that stun guns are illegal in the UK, but there are a
class of self defence training tools called "shock knives" which
work in a very similar manner to a stun gun but are not specifically
designed as a weapon.
www.shocknife.com
One of the problems with self defence training is that it is
unrealistic. It is performed in a safe environment, slowly, with
unresisting partners usually. It means that much of the martial arts
self defence techniques taught are just as unrealistic and may even
increase the chance of getting you hurt should you attempt to use
them. So there is a need for the introduction of some realism which
can rule out dangerous or useless techniques. With unarmed training
this is relatively simple, however it's a completely different matter
when training involves knife defence.
Most self defence teachers and training uses rubber or plastic
replicas, but there is no realism there. They are blunt, don't hurt
and it is easy to develop techniques which would get you killed if
the knife was real. This is why shock knives were invented. They are
much lower voltage than stun guns (7500 volts vs 100,000) but still
deliver a painful electrical shock which tells you you have been
"cut" and increases your adrenal response more in line with a real
situation. Illegal/not? Stun guns yes, they have a specific purpose of
disabling someone. Shock knife uses exactly the same technology,
lower voltage and only delivers pain.

Clearly an offensive weapon under UK law.
Peter Crosland

it 'might' be legal to posess, but not to import, sell or hire or carry in a
public place. Shock devices come under firearms legislation, pointed or
edged under knife. So if they can't get you under one they will use the
other.

[F Murtz]

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Peter Crosland

Post by Colin Smith
I wonder if anyone can help with the definition of a weapon.
I am aware that stun guns are illegal in the UK, but there are a
class of self defence training tools called "shock knives" which
work in a very similar manner to a stun gun but are not specifically
designed as a weapon.
www.shocknife.com
One of the problems with self defence training is that it is
unrealistic. It is performed in a safe environment, slowly, with
unresisting partners usually. It means that much of the martial arts
self defence techniques taught are just as unrealistic and may even
increase the chance of getting you hurt should you attempt to use
them. So there is a need for the introduction of some realism which
can rule out dangerous or useless techniques. With unarmed training
this is relatively simple, however it's a completely different matter
when training involves knife defence.
Most self defence teachers and training uses rubber or plastic
replicas, but there is no realism there. They are blunt, don't hurt
and it is easy to develop techniques which would get you killed if
the knife was real. This is why shock knives were invented. They are
much lower voltage than stun guns (7500 volts vs 100,000) but still
deliver a painful electrical shock which tells you you have been
"cut" and increases your adrenal response more in line with a real
situation. Illegal/not? Stun guns yes, they have a specific purpose of
disabling someone. Shock knife uses exactly the same technology,
lower voltage and only delivers pain.

Clearly an offensive weapon under UK law.
Peter Crosland

it 'might' be legal to posess, but not to import, sell or hire or carry in a
public place. Shock devices come under firearms legislation, pointed or
edged under knife. So if they can't get you under one they will use the
other.

This thing is some sort of plastic, (will not cut) so I doubt it would
come under pointed or edged so unless your jurisdiction has some law
about replicas I can't see that it is any different to the numerous
electric shocking toys that seem to be legal.

[Mrcheerful]

Post by F Murtz

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Peter Crosland

Post by Colin Smith
I wonder if anyone can help with the definition of a weapon.
I am aware that stun guns are illegal in the UK, but there are a
class of self defence training tools called "shock knives" which
work in a very similar manner to a stun gun but are not
specifically designed as a weapon.
www.shocknife.com
One of the problems with self defence training is that it is
unrealistic. It is performed in a safe environment, slowly, with
unresisting partners usually. It means that much of the martial
arts self defence techniques taught are just as unrealistic and
may even increase the chance of getting you hurt should you
attempt to use them. So there is a need for the introduction of
some realism which can rule out dangerous or useless techniques.
With unarmed training this is relatively simple, however it's a
completely different matter when training involves knife defence.
Most self defence teachers and training uses rubber or plastic
replicas, but there is no realism there. They are blunt, don't hurt
and it is easy to develop techniques which would get you killed if
the knife was real. This is why shock knives were invented. They
are much lower voltage than stun guns (7500 volts vs 100,000) but
still deliver a painful electrical shock which tells you you have
been "cut" and increases your adrenal response more in line with a
real situation. Illegal/not? Stun guns yes, they have a specific
purpose of disabling someone. Shock knife uses exactly the same
technology, lower voltage and only delivers pain.

Clearly an offensive weapon under UK law.
Peter Crosland

it 'might' be legal to posess, but not to import, sell or hire or
carry in a public place. Shock devices come under firearms
legislation, pointed or edged under knife. So if they can't get you
under one they will use the other.

This thing is some sort of plastic, (will not cut) so I doubt it would
come under pointed or edged so unless your jurisdiction has some law
about replicas I can't see that it is any different to the numerous
electric shocking toys that seem to be legal.

a knife (broad term) can be made of any material, including plastic and
wood and still be classed as a knife, there is no requirement for it to be
made of metal or to have a cutting edge. (UK) So it would come under the
class of offensive weapon if displayed (or found on you ) in a public place.

[F Murtz]

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by F Murtz

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Peter Crosland

Post by Colin Smith
I wonder if anyone can help with the definition of a weapon.
I am aware that stun guns are illegal in the UK, but there are a
class of self defence training tools called "shock knives" which
work in a very similar manner to a stun gun but are not
specifically designed as a weapon.
www.shocknife.com
One of the problems with self defence training is that it is
unrealistic. It is performed in a safe environment, slowly, with
unresisting partners usually. It means that much of the martial
arts self defence techniques taught are just as unrealistic and
may even increase the chance of getting you hurt should you
attempt to use them. So there is a need for the introduction of
some realism which can rule out dangerous or useless techniques.
With unarmed training this is relatively simple, however it's a
completely different matter when training involves knife defence.
Most self defence teachers and training uses rubber or plastic
replicas, but there is no realism there. They are blunt, don't hurt
and it is easy to develop techniques which would get you killed if
the knife was real. This is why shock knives were invented. They
are much lower voltage than stun guns (7500 volts vs 100,000) but
still deliver a painful electrical shock which tells you you have
been "cut" and increases your adrenal response more in line with a
real situation. Illegal/not? Stun guns yes, they have a specific
purpose of disabling someone. Shock knife uses exactly the same
technology, lower voltage and only delivers pain.

Clearly an offensive weapon under UK law.
Peter Crosland

it 'might' be legal to posess, but not to import, sell or hire or
carry in a public place. Shock devices come under firearms
legislation, pointed or edged under knife. So if they can't get you
under one they will use the other.

This thing is some sort of plastic, (will not cut) so I doubt it would
come under pointed or edged so unless your jurisdiction has some law
about replicas I can't see that it is any different to the numerous
electric shocking toys that seem to be legal.

a knife (broad term) can be made of any material, including plastic and
wood and still be classed as a knife, there is no requirement for it to be
made of metal or to have a cutting edge. (UK) So it would come under the
class of offensive weapon if displayed (or found on you ) in a public place.

From my reading of the blurb it has no cutting edge it is designed not
to cut

[Mrcheerful]

Post by F Murtz

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by F Murtz

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Peter Crosland

Post by Colin Smith
I wonder if anyone can help with the definition of a weapon.
I am aware that stun guns are illegal in the UK, but there are a
class of self defence training tools called "shock knives" which
work in a very similar manner to a stun gun but are not
specifically designed as a weapon.
www.shocknife.com
One of the problems with self defence training is that it is
unrealistic. It is performed in a safe environment, slowly, with
unresisting partners usually. It means that much of the martial
arts self defence techniques taught are just as unrealistic and
may even increase the chance of getting you hurt should you
attempt to use them. So there is a need for the introduction of
some realism which can rule out dangerous or useless techniques.
With unarmed training this is relatively simple, however it's a
completely different matter when training involves knife defence.
Most self defence teachers and training uses rubber or plastic
replicas, but there is no realism there. They are blunt, don't
hurt and it is easy to develop techniques which would get you
killed if the knife was real. This is why shock knives were
invented. They are much lower voltage than stun guns (7500 volts
vs 100,000) but still deliver a painful electrical shock which tells
you you have been "cut" and increases your adrenal
response more in line with a real situation. Illegal/not? Stun
guns yes, they have a specific purpose of disabling someone.
Shock knife uses exactly the same technology, lower voltage and
only delivers pain.

Clearly an offensive weapon under UK law.
Peter Crosland

it 'might' be legal to posess, but not to import, sell or hire or
carry in a public place. Shock devices come under firearms
legislation, pointed or edged under knife. So if they can't get
you under one they will use the other.

This thing is some sort of plastic, (will not cut) so I doubt it
would come under pointed or edged so unless your jurisdiction has
some law about replicas I can't see that it is any different to the
numerous electric shocking toys that seem to be legal.

a knife (broad term) can be made of any material, including plastic
and wood and still be classed as a knife, there is no requirement
for it to be made of metal or to have a cutting edge. (UK) So it
would come under the class of offensive weapon if displayed (or
found on you ) in a public place.

From my reading of the blurb it has no cutting edge it is designed
not to cut

it does not have to have a cutting edge to be a knife (in law), a slightly
sharp end is sufficient (the picture I looked at showed a knife shape with a
point)

[F Murtz]

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by F Murtz

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by F Murtz

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Peter Crosland

Post by Colin Smith
I wonder if anyone can help with the definition of a weapon.
I am aware that stun guns are illegal in the UK, but there are a
class of self defence training tools called "shock knives" which
work in a very similar manner to a stun gun but are not
specifically designed as a weapon.
www.shocknife.com
One of the problems with self defence training is that it is
unrealistic. It is performed in a safe environment, slowly, with
unresisting partners usually. It means that much of the martial
arts self defence techniques taught are just as unrealistic and
may even increase the chance of getting you hurt should you
attempt to use them. So there is a need for the introduction of
some realism which can rule out dangerous or useless techniques.
With unarmed training this is relatively simple, however it's a
completely different matter when training involves knife defence.
Most self defence teachers and training uses rubber or plastic
replicas, but there is no realism there. They are blunt, don't
hurt and it is easy to develop techniques which would get you
killed if the knife was real. This is why shock knives were
invented. They are much lower voltage than stun guns (7500 volts
vs 100,000) but still deliver a painful electrical shock which tells
you you have been "cut" and increases your adrenal
response more in line with a real situation. Illegal/not? Stun
guns yes, they have a specific purpose of disabling someone.
Shock knife uses exactly the same technology, lower voltage and
only delivers pain.

Clearly an offensive weapon under UK law.
Peter Crosland

it 'might' be legal to posess, but not to import, sell or hire or
carry in a public place. Shock devices come under firearms
legislation, pointed or edged under knife. So if they can't get
you under one they will use the other.

This thing is some sort of plastic, (will not cut) so I doubt it
would come under pointed or edged so unless your jurisdiction has
some law about replicas I can't see that it is any different to the
numerous electric shocking toys that seem to be legal.

a knife (broad term) can be made of any material, including plastic
and wood and still be classed as a knife, there is no requirement
for it to be made of metal or to have a cutting edge. (UK) So it
would come under the class of offensive weapon if displayed (or
found on you ) in a public place.

From my reading of the blurb it has no cutting edge it is designed
not to cut

it does not have to have a cutting edge to be a knife (in law), a slightly
sharp end is sufficient (the picture I looked at showed a knife shape with a
point)

A point at the end does not make it sharp it could be bendy rubber.
By your reading all the plastic bendy knifes and swords sold as toys by
the thousands would be illegal so until some one gets a ruling on these
things your saying that they are illegal holds no water

[Mrcheerful]

Post by F Murtz

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by F Murtz

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by F Murtz

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Peter Crosland

Post by Colin Smith
I wonder if anyone can help with the definition of a weapon.
I am aware that stun guns are illegal in the UK, but there are
a class of self defence training tools called "shock knives"
which work in a very similar manner to a stun gun but are not
specifically designed as a weapon.
www.shocknife.com
One of the problems with self defence training is that it is
unrealistic. It is performed in a safe environment, slowly,
with unresisting partners usually. It means that much of the
martial arts self defence techniques taught are just as
unrealistic and may even increase the chance of getting you hurt
should you
attempt to use them. So there is a need for the introduction of
some realism which can rule out dangerous or useless
techniques. With unarmed training this is relatively simple,
however it's a completely different matter when training
involves knife defence. Most self defence teachers and training
uses rubber or plastic
replicas, but there is no realism there. They are blunt, don't
hurt and it is easy to develop techniques which would get you
killed if the knife was real. This is why shock knives were
invented. They are much lower voltage than stun guns (7500
volts vs 100,000) but still deliver a painful electrical shock
which
tells you you have been "cut" and increases your adrenal
response more in line with a real situation. Illegal/not? Stun
guns yes, they have a specific purpose of disabling someone.
Shock knife uses exactly the same technology, lower voltage and
only delivers pain.

Clearly an offensive weapon under UK law.
Peter Crosland

it 'might' be legal to posess, but not to import, sell or hire or
carry in a public place. Shock devices come under firearms
legislation, pointed or edged under knife. So if they can't get
you under one they will use the other.

This thing is some sort of plastic, (will not cut) so I doubt it
would come under pointed or edged so unless your jurisdiction has
some law about replicas I can't see that it is any different to
the numerous electric shocking toys that seem to be legal.

a knife (broad term) can be made of any material, including
plastic and wood and still be classed as a knife, there is no
requirement for it to be made of metal or to have a cutting edge. (UK)
So it would come under the class of offensive weapon if
displayed (or found on you ) in a public place.

From my reading of the blurb it has no cutting edge it is designed
not to cut

it does not have to have a cutting edge to be a knife (in law), a
slightly sharp end is sufficient (the picture I looked at showed a
knife shape with a point)

A point at the end does not make it sharp it could be bendy rubber.
By your reading all the plastic bendy knifes and swords sold as toys
by the thousands would be illegal so until some one gets a ruling on
these things your saying that they are illegal holds no water

they certainly could be illegal in a public place, I would not like one
jabbed at my soft bits.

[Mrcheerful]

Post by F Murtz

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by F Murtz

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by F Murtz

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Peter Crosland

Post by Colin Smith
I wonder if anyone can help with the definition of a weapon.
I am aware that stun guns are illegal in the UK, but there are
a class of self defence training tools called "shock knives"
which work in a very similar manner to a stun gun but are not
specifically designed as a weapon.
www.shocknife.com
One of the problems with self defence training is that it is
unrealistic. It is performed in a safe environment, slowly,
with unresisting partners usually. It means that much of the
martial arts self defence techniques taught are just as
unrealistic and may even increase the chance of getting you hurt
should you
attempt to use them. So there is a need for the introduction of
some realism which can rule out dangerous or useless
techniques. With unarmed training this is relatively simple,
however it's a completely different matter when training
involves knife defence. Most self defence teachers and training
uses rubber or plastic
replicas, but there is no realism there. They are blunt, don't
hurt and it is easy to develop techniques which would get you
killed if the knife was real. This is why shock knives were
invented. They are much lower voltage than stun guns (7500
volts vs 100,000) but still deliver a painful electrical shock
which
tells you you have been "cut" and increases your adrenal
response more in line with a real situation. Illegal/not? Stun
guns yes, they have a specific purpose of disabling someone.
Shock knife uses exactly the same technology, lower voltage and
only delivers pain.

Clearly an offensive weapon under UK law.
Peter Crosland

it 'might' be legal to posess, but not to import, sell or hire or
carry in a public place. Shock devices come under firearms
legislation, pointed or edged under knife. So if they can't get
you under one they will use the other.

This thing is some sort of plastic, (will not cut) so I doubt it
would come under pointed or edged so unless your jurisdiction has
some law about replicas I can't see that it is any different to
the numerous electric shocking toys that seem to be legal.

a knife (broad term) can be made of any material, including
plastic and wood and still be classed as a knife, there is no
requirement for it to be made of metal or to have a cutting edge. (UK)
So it would come under the class of offensive weapon if
displayed (or found on you ) in a public place.

From my reading of the blurb it has no cutting edge it is designed
not to cut

it does not have to have a cutting edge to be a knife (in law), a
slightly sharp end is sufficient (the picture I looked at showed a
knife shape with a point)

A point at the end does not make it sharp it could be bendy rubber.
By your reading all the plastic bendy knifes and swords sold as toys
by the thousands would be illegal so until some one gets a ruling on
these things your saying that they are illegal holds no water

just last year a student in nottingham was arrested while dressed as rambo
for a fancy dress party because he had a plastic knife in a public place,
the case was eventually dropped as 'not being in the public interest'

[Francis Burton]

Post by F Murtz
A point at the end does not make it sharp it could be bendy rubber.
By your reading all the plastic bendy knifes and swords sold as toys by
the thousands would be illegal so until some one gets a ruling on these
things your saying that they are illegal holds no water

It could still put someone's eye out.

Francis

[Ian Jackson]

Post by Francis Burton

Post by F Murtz
A point at the end does not make it sharp it could be bendy rubber.
By your reading all the plastic bendy knifes and swords sold as toys by
the thousands would be illegal so until some one gets a ruling on these
things your saying that they are illegal holds no water

It could still put someone's eye out.

So could my little finger.

[AlanG]

On Wed, 27 May 2009 19:10:06 +0100, Ian Jackson

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by Francis Burton

Post by F Murtz
A point at the end does not make it sharp it could be bendy rubber.
By your reading all the plastic bendy knifes and swords sold as toys by
the thousands would be illegal so until some one gets a ruling on these
things your saying that they are illegal holds no water

It could still put someone's eye out.

So could my little finger.

So could my stainless steel Parker pencil

[Ian Jackson]

Post by AlanG
On Wed, 27 May 2009 19:10:06 +0100, Ian Jackson

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by Francis Burton

Post by F Murtz
A point at the end does not make it sharp it could be bendy rubber.
By your reading all the plastic bendy knifes and swords sold as toys by
the thousands would be illegal so until some one gets a ruling on these
things your saying that they are illegal holds no water

It could still put someone's eye out.

So could my little finger.

So could my stainless steel Parker pencil

No need to dirty a good Parker pencil. Only a couple of months ago, one
of the BBC Radio daily serials (the one at 10:45 in the morning,
repeated at half past midnight) had a lady secret agent killing an
adversary when she suddenly realised that he had 'rumbled' her. The
weapon was a normal wooden pencil (which was all she had at hand),
thrust through the eye, and into the brain.

[Mike Ross]

Post by Mrcheerful
it 'might' be legal to posess, but not to import, sell or hire or carry in a
public place. Shock devices come under firearms legislation, pointed or
edged under knife. So if they can't get you under one they will use the
other.

Once again, I disagree. What about violet wands? Openly sold. Or even TENS
devices - both are common toys on the BDSM scene. It's all down to intended use.
Once again, since (as I understand it) the shock knife is neither bladed, nor
electrically injurious, disabling, or lethal, merely painful, I don't see how it
could possibly fall under either of the laws you cite. Tasers and stun guns are
*designed* to injure or disable a victim. The shock knife is designed NOT to do
either.

Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'

[Mrcheerful]

Post by Mike Ross

Post by Mrcheerful
it 'might' be legal to posess, but not to import, sell or hire or
carry in a public place. Shock devices come under firearms
legislation, pointed or edged under knife. So if they can't get you
under one they will use the other.

Once again, I disagree. What about violet wands? Openly sold. Or even
TENS devices - both are common toys on the BDSM scene. It's all down
to intended use. Once again, since (as I understand it) the shock
knife is neither bladed, nor electrically injurious, disabling, or
lethal, merely painful, I don't see how it could possibly fall under
either of the laws you cite. Tasers and stun guns are *designed* to
injure or disable a victim. The shock knife is designed NOT to do
either.
Mike

I think that if it went to court and a shocknife was held up in front of a
judge that the decision would be that it was an offensive weapon (pointed
and designed to hurt) [assuming that for instance it had been waved about
in public causing an arrest/prosecution]

[Mike Ross]

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Mike Ross

Post by Mrcheerful
it 'might' be legal to posess, but not to import, sell or hire or
carry in a public place. Shock devices come under firearms
legislation, pointed or edged under knife. So if they can't get you
under one they will use the other.

Once again, I disagree. What about violet wands? Openly sold. Or even
TENS devices - both are common toys on the BDSM scene. It's all down
to intended use. Once again, since (as I understand it) the shock
knife is neither bladed, nor electrically injurious, disabling, or
lethal, merely painful, I don't see how it could possibly fall under
either of the laws you cite. Tasers and stun guns are *designed* to
injure or disable a victim. The shock knife is designed NOT to do
either.
Mike

I think that if it went to court and a shocknife was held up in front of a
judge that the decision would be that it was an offensive weapon (pointed
and designed to hurt) [assuming that for instance it had been waved about
in public causing an arrest/prosecution]

Ah well now we're discussing something quite different - a bottle of wine is an
offensive weapon if used as such in public. I was referring to shock knives
being bought, sold, owned, and used for their intended purpose by consenting
adults. Others seemed to suggest even that was illegal; I showed how that
position made no sense.

Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'