Discussion:
Tenants in Common: Form TR1
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Jam
2006-01-11 16:21:14 UTC
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I'm transferring a property from myself to three family members but in
unequal shares (50% 25% 25%). I've completed most of form TR1 but I'm
stuck at Panel 11 "Declaration of Trust". It has three options:

X The Transferees are to hold the Property on trust for themselves as
joint tenants

X The Transferees are to hold the Property on trust for themselves as
tenants in common in equal shares

X The Transferees are to hold the Property (complete as necessary)

....should I tick the last option? How can I show the 50 / 25 / 25
percent split?
The Todal
2006-01-11 16:26:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jam
I'm transferring a property from myself to three family members but in
unequal shares (50% 25% 25%). I've completed most of form TR1 but I'm
X The Transferees are to hold the Property on trust for themselves as
joint tenants
X The Transferees are to hold the Property on trust for themselves as
tenants in common in equal shares
X The Transferees are to hold the Property (complete as necessary)
....should I tick the last option? How can I show the 50 / 25 / 25
percent split?
I would be inclined to put "in accordance with the Trust Deed annexed" and
set out the shares in a Trust Deed. An alternative wording might be: The
Transferees are to hold the property in the following shares: James Smith
50%, John Smith 25%, Jack Smith 25%.
Graham Brooker
2006-01-11 20:49:39 UTC
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You can always phone the particular Land Registry help line and ask them.
They are not able to give legal advice but they can help with procedures.
In one such recent phone call I was told that you do not have to record the
individual shares of ownership on the title as Tenants in common is enough
because it always assumes the existence of a trust and the court/registrar
will have to see proof of the terms of the trust before a sale involving a
deceased's share can be registered. I was advised I could add an Agreed
Notice AL1 to the title register so that each owner can record his interest
in the property. I will be doing this because I intend to give part of a
house to my children in settlement of a trust without getting the
mortgagee's consent as I do not want them to make my children a party to the
loan agreement and the bank has already entered a restriction so a TR1
transfer cannot be registered without their consent.

Graham Brooker
Peter Crosland
2006-01-11 22:23:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graham Brooker
You can always phone the particular Land Registry help line and ask them.
They are not able to give legal advice but they can help with procedures.
In one such recent phone call I was told that you do not have to record
the individual shares of ownership on the title as Tenants in common is
enough because it always assumes the existence of a trust and the
court/registrar will have to see proof of the terms of the trust before a
sale involving a deceased's share can be registered. I was advised I
could add an Agreed Notice AL1 to the title register so that each owner
can record his interest in the property. I will be doing this because I
intend to give part of a house to my children in settlement of a trust
without getting the mortgagee's consent as I do not want them to make my
children a party to the loan agreement and the bank has already entered a
restriction so a TR1 transfer cannot be registered without their consent.
Thats sounds very unwise to say the least. By doing this you are almost
certainly in breach of your mortage agreement and potentailly it could be
seen as deception or fraud. The bank would certainly be justified in
foreclosing. Then there are the potential tax liabilties as well.

Peter Crosland
Graham Brooker
2006-01-12 09:06:25 UTC
Permalink
"Peter Crosland" wrote Thats sounds very unwise to say the least. By doing
this you are almost
Post by Peter Crosland
certainly in breach of your mortage agreement and potentailly it could be
seen as deception or fraud. The bank would certainly be justified in
foreclosing. Then there are the potential tax liabilties as well.
I take your concerns, but I have not explained the full story.

The house is registered as tenants in common with myself and my wife and is
mortgaged (myself and my late father had signed personal guarantees in
addition to the mortgage charge). Our private discretionary trust deed
states the actual ownership position that my late father's estate holds 1/3
whereas my wife and I hold 1/3 each. My wife and I are both trustees of his
trust formed by my father's will. The bank have no interest in knowing we
hold the house in trust for ourselves and our children as they have a charge
and are properly protected. This year we are breaking the trust and
distributing the assets to the children. There are no tax implications
because the children's share passes through the trust at the base cost it
entered into the trust 10 years ago. There is no formal way of rearranging
title ownership other than a TR1 transfer as this would require mortgagees
consent as they hold a restriction in addition to their charge. By the way
HMLR told me you can TR1 Transfer a mortgaged property without mortgagees
consent if there is no restriction recorded as the charge remains intact -
this practise is not normally done as the new owners end up with the old
charge on their title. In our case there is no need to anything because my
wife and I as tenants in common can continue as trustees to hold the house
on behalf of all the interested parties since the trust is a private
document. The land registry do not seem to want to get involved in
recording percentages of ownership but only need to know a trust exists. We
are wanting to record the fact that something has happened in case our
children do not remember to look for the trust deed after our death. The
AN1 Agreed Notice is simply a method of recording publicly that people other
than the registered proprietors have an interest in the house. The
mortgagees will get a copy of the notice from HMLR but it will not
jeopardise their charge interest as it is of higher priority than the other
parties concerned - it will be meaningless to them. They know nothing of
our private trust arrangements that are purely for inheritance tax purposes
and do not affect their interest. I think this clarifies the position that
we are not attempting fraud. There seems to be no way of recording trust
details on a land registry title. In fact the percentage of ownership never
seems to get recorded and is perhaps best left off the title as it can prove
more flexible if left to the discretion of those who may inherit later.

Others may wish to comment

Graham Brooker
Peter Crosland
2006-01-12 11:09:33 UTC
Permalink
All noted and an interesting way of doing things. Whilst I accept that you
are not attempting fraud I still suspect that the mortgage company might be
unhappy. It really depends on the exact terms of the mortgage. The Revenue
and Customs might not be happy either as they are scrutinising things ever
more closely. I hope you have had paid for professional advice on it. Good
luck if it works as I am always in favour of depriving the government if it
is legally possible!

Peter Crosland
Peter Crosland
2006-01-11 16:52:19 UTC
Permalink
You cannot afford to make such transfer without paid for professional
advice. Look on the fee as insurance. If you cock it up it could cost far
more than the couple of hundred quid it will cost to get it done by a
solicitor.

Peter Crosland
Mike Scott
2006-01-11 17:47:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Crosland
You cannot afford to make such transfer without paid for professional
advice. Look on the fee as insurance. If you cock it up it could cost far
more than the couple of hundred quid it will cost to get it done by a
solicitor.
Peter Crosland
Out of interest, and at the risk of heading OT, if a house is in the
husband's name alone, I've seen it suggested that it's better in both
names as tenants in common. Any comments or pointers to places where
this is discussed please - and the differences from joint tenancy, and
all in laymans' terms?
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Please use the corrected version of the address below for replies.
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Mike Scott Harlow Essex England.(unet -a-t- scottsonline.org.uk)
Peter Crosland
2006-01-11 19:18:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Scott
Post by Peter Crosland
You cannot afford to make such transfer without paid for professional
advice. Look on the fee as insurance. If you cock it up it could cost far
more than the couple of hundred quid it will cost to get it done by a
solicitor.
Out of interest, and at the risk of heading OT, if a house is in the
husband's name alone, I've seen it suggested that it's better in both
names as tenants in common. Any comments or pointers to places where this
is discussed please - and the differences from joint tenancy, and all in
laymans' terms?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/watchdog/asktheexperts/misc/misc10.shtml

Explains it briefly.

There is rather more on this site

http://www.lawontheweb.co.uk/basics/cohabit.htm

Peter Crosland
Willy
2006-01-12 11:40:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jam
I'm transferring a property from myself to three family members but in
unequal shares (50% 25% 25%). I've completed most of form TR1 but I'm
X The Transferees are to hold the Property on trust for themselves as
joint tenants
X The Transferees are to hold the Property on trust for themselves as
tenants in common in equal shares
X The Transferees are to hold the Property (complete as necessary)
....should I tick the last option? How can I show the 50 / 25 / 25
percent split?
The last one but the law presumes that it is an equal split UNLESS you
have a Declaration of Trust to show the proportions so you would need
to prepare a declaration of trust showing those ratios and the third
option should be finished off "pursuant to the provisions of a
Declaration of Trust dated with even date to this Transfer". The Land
Registry don't need to see a copy of the Declaration of Trust but it
is an important document and needs to be retained with the Title Deeds.
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