Discussion:
Bailiffs to get rights of forceable entry to recover civil debts.
(too old to reply)
Alasdair Baxter
2004-04-02 20:44:28 UTC
Permalink
According to an article in this month's Legal Action magazine on page
19, the Government has issued a White paper on bailiff law reform
http://www.dca.gov.uk/enforcement/wp/.

This white paper is vitally important because it will have a very
serious effect on the poorest people in our society and will be
devastating for civil liberties.

Paragraphs 163 to 167 of the white paper will give bailiffs the power
to break into private homes to recover civil debts. An Englishman's
home will no longer be his castle if this proposal passes into law as
most of Blair's proposals do.

OK. There are some safeguards but courts and bailiffs can make
mistakes and if the rules follow those governing the Police, victims
of a break-in authorised by a magisterial or judicial warrant will
have no remedy as per Keegan v Chief Constable of Merseyside [2003]
even if the break-in resulted from a mistake or even gross
carelessness on the part of the bailiffs concerned.

Deliberately or otherwise, the executive summary or the press releases
of the white paper made no mention of the proposals on forced entry.
Because of this, there was not the hue and cry from civil libertarians
which might have been expected.


--

Alasdair Baxter, Nottingham, UK.Tel +44 115 9705100; Fax +44 115 9423263

"It's not what you say that matters but how you say it.
It's not what you do that matters but how you do it"
wanderer
2004-04-02 20:55:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alasdair Baxter
According to an article in this month's Legal Action magazine on page
19, the Government has issued a White paper on bailiff law reform
http://www.dca.gov.uk/enforcement/wp/.
The white paper is dated March 2003. It's hardly new, or am I missing
something?
Alasdair Baxter
2004-04-02 21:03:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by wanderer
The white paper is dated March 2003. It's hardly new, or am I missing
something?
This may be so but the first I heard of it was in this month's "Legal
Action". This doesn't lessen the importance of the development which,
unless you know differently, has not yet been enacted into law.
--

Alasdair Baxter, Nottingham, UK.Tel +44 115 9705100; Fax +44 115 9423263

"It's not what you say that matters but how you say it.
It's not what you do that matters but how you do it"
Roger J. P. Jones
2004-04-03 10:31:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alasdair Baxter
Post by wanderer
The white paper is dated March 2003. It's hardly new, or am I missing
something?
This may be so but the first I heard of it was in this month's "Legal
Action". This doesn't lessen the importance of the development which,
unless you know differently, has not yet been enacted into law.
--
Alasdair Baxter, Nottingham, UK.Tel +44 115 9705100; Fax +44 115 9423263
"It's not what you say that matters but how you say it.
It's not what you do that matters but how you do it"
Alisdair, you may have heard on uk.legal of my experiences of the
uncontrolled MP`s - Judges - Police - Solicitors and Barristers, but
have you of my experience of the Bailiffs?

Well it was like this. Against the background of my displaying the
wicked control of these above. (Who plainly do not like me!!!!!!!)

The Bailiffs were sent in!!!! (THIS IS REAL!!!!!!).

They on my opening the door pushed in!! and asked if I was Edward Jones.
I said no, would they go out on my house. They said no!! They could call
the Police!! I said do so!! They still refused to wait outside, I told
them Edward Jones was my son who lived in the USA. He owed a find for
not showing a licence on his van.

Two yokel cops arrived. Told the bailiffs I was Roger Jones and then
left.

The BAILIFFS did not!!! They were plainly so thick and self inspired
with power they even put the police to shame!!!!! But may have I concede
had orders to give me a hard time???? They started to list goods within
my home Etc!!

I even had to go an Oxford Court and swear I was Roger Jones!!!!!!! I
had lived at 12 Windmill St Deddington for 20 years - The kids having
gone to the Deddington primary school, where my wife was school
secretary. THIS IS REAL!!

I wonder if some persons don't like me?

Think what may have happened Bailiffs had the "POWER TO BRAKE
IN"???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
--
Roger J. P. Jones
David Griffin
2004-04-03 08:24:13 UTC
Permalink
I see a rise in the sale of baseball bats if this goes through.
Post by Alasdair Baxter
According to an article in this month's Legal Action magazine on page
19, the Government has issued a White paper on bailiff law reform
http://www.dca.gov.uk/enforcement/wp/.
This white paper is vitally important because it will have a very
serious effect on the poorest people in our society and will be
devastating for civil liberties.
Paragraphs 163 to 167 of the white paper will give bailiffs the power
to break into private homes to recover civil debts. An Englishman's
home will no longer be his castle if this proposal passes into law as
most of Blair's proposals do.
OK. There are some safeguards but courts and bailiffs can make
mistakes and if the rules follow those governing the Police, victims
of a break-in authorised by a magisterial or judicial warrant will
have no remedy as per Keegan v Chief Constable of Merseyside [2003]
even if the break-in resulted from a mistake or even gross
carelessness on the part of the bailiffs concerned.
Deliberately or otherwise, the executive summary or the press releases
of the white paper made no mention of the proposals on forced entry.
Because of this, there was not the hue and cry from civil libertarians
which might have been expected.
--
Alasdair Baxter, Nottingham, UK.Tel +44 115 9705100; Fax +44 115 9423263
"It's not what you say that matters but how you say it.
It's not what you do that matters but how you do it"
The Enforcement Team
2004-04-03 10:36:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alasdair Baxter
Paragraphs 163 to 167 of the white paper will give bailiffs the power
to break into private homes to recover civil debts.
It also says paragraph 175: "wheel clamping of vehicles and close
possession, although this last is rarely used now". LOL The wheel
clamp is the Bailiffs biggest Yellow Tool and increasing highly with the
amount of work under the Greater London (Central Zone) Congestion
Charging Order, The Transport for London (Bus Lanes) Not forgetting the
Penalty Charge Notice. Then the local magistrates courts distress
warrants The local council, Inland revenue, CSA ...... and so on.
a***@white-eagle.co.uk
2004-04-03 16:49:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alasdair Baxter
According to an article in this month's Legal Action magazine on page
19, the Government has issued a White paper on bailiff law reform
http://www.dca.gov.uk/enforcement/wp/.
This white paper is vitally important because it will have a very
serious effect on the poorest people in our society and will be
devastating for civil liberties.
You are quite correct. I am disgusted with the system which persecutes
yong girls for trying to earn a few extra pounds a week while caring for
their baby (I know such a person... what answer... fine? gaol? for
trying to earn a few measly pounds?)

If any government were to be serious about bringing people out of
poverty, then they would introduce "negative income tax"... i.e. let
people work and declare it and feel free to work. Many people can get
part-time jobs maybe even earing only 20 quid a week... but when they
are told that 15 quid will be taken off them... why bother.
Post by Alasdair Baxter
Paragraphs 163 to 167 of the white paper will give bailiffs the power
to break into private homes to recover civil debts. An Englishman's
home will no longer be his castle if this proposal passes into law as
most of Blair's proposals do.
Well... the Blair/Blunkett government no longer cares about us
citizens... giving the right to companies to have access to the
electoral role... either everyone should have access or nobody.

I can think of pointless legislation passed by this government

- Register of UK political parties (why!? We elect an MP not a party...
the words on the form are just the prospective MP's description... why not
go back to the old days when just the candidate's name was on the form?)
and creating a register thereof.

- Raising the age of consent to appear naked to 18.

Thank goodness neither effect me, especially as I am leaving the UK>

Axel
Johnjo
2004-04-03 16:53:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@white-eagle.co.uk
Post by Alasdair Baxter
According to an article in this month's Legal Action magazine on page
19, the Government has issued a White paper on bailiff law reform
http://www.dca.gov.uk/enforcement/wp/.
You are quite correct. I am disgusted with the system which persecutes
yong girls for trying to earn a few extra pounds a week while caring for
their baby (I know such a person... what answer... fine? gaol? for
trying to earn a few measly pounds?)
Perhaps if these young girls waited until they could afford to bring up
children without having to rely on the taxpayer before deciding to have
babies they wouldn't be so poor. As it is Britain's teenage pregnancy
record is a disgrace.
a***@white-eagle.co.uk
2004-04-03 17:13:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Johnjo
Post by a***@white-eagle.co.uk
You are quite correct. I am disgusted with the system which persecutes
yong girls for trying to earn a few extra pounds a week while caring for
their baby (I know such a person... what answer... fine? gaol? for
trying to earn a few measly pounds?)
Perhaps if these young girls waited until they could afford to bring up
children without having to rely on the taxpayer before deciding to have
babies they wouldn't be so poor. As it is Britain's teenage pregnancy
record is a disgrace.
There is nothing wrong with a child... it happens (not just in young
girls)... ok an accident maybe, but it has happened. A human life is made.

There is nothing wrong with teenage pregnancy as long as the parents
care for and love the child.

Axel
Johnjo
2004-04-03 17:34:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@white-eagle.co.uk
Post by Johnjo
Post by a***@white-eagle.co.uk
You are quite correct. I am disgusted with the system which persecutes
yong girls for trying to earn a few extra pounds a week while caring for
their baby (I know such a person... what answer... fine? gaol? for
trying to earn a few measly pounds?)
Perhaps if these young girls waited until they could afford to bring up
children without having to rely on the taxpayer before deciding to have
babies they wouldn't be so poor. As it is Britain's teenage pregnancy
record is a disgrace.
There is nothing wrong with a child... it happens (not just in young
girls)... ok an accident maybe, but it has happened. A human life is made.
There is nothing wrong with teenage pregnancy as long as the parents
care for and love the child.
Axel
Absolutely right. But at their expense, not mine.
Richard Miller
2004-04-03 18:03:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Johnjo
Post by a***@white-eagle.co.uk
Post by Alasdair Baxter
According to an article in this month's Legal Action magazine on page
19, the Government has issued a White paper on bailiff law reform
http://www.dca.gov.uk/enforcement/wp/.
You are quite correct. I am disgusted with the system which persecutes
yong girls for trying to earn a few extra pounds a week while caring for
their baby (I know such a person... what answer... fine? gaol? for
trying to earn a few measly pounds?)
Perhaps if these young girls waited until they could afford to bring up
children without having to rely on the taxpayer before deciding to have
babies they wouldn't be so poor. As it is Britain's teenage pregnancy
record is a disgrace.
And of course all these babies have nothing at all to do with teenage
boys.
--
Richard Miller
steve robinson
2004-04-03 18:31:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Miller
Post by Johnjo
Post by a***@white-eagle.co.uk
Post by Alasdair Baxter
According to an article in this month's Legal Action magazine on page
19, the Government has issued a White paper on bailiff law reform
http://www.dca.gov.uk/enforcement/wp/.
You are quite correct. I am disgusted with the system which persecutes
yong girls for trying to earn a few extra pounds a week while caring for
their baby (I know such a person... what answer... fine? gaol? for
trying to earn a few measly pounds?)
Perhaps if these young girls waited until they could afford to bring up
children without having to rely on the taxpayer before deciding to have
babies they wouldn't be so poor. As it is Britain's teenage pregnancy
record is a disgrace.
And of course all these babies have nothing at all to do with teenage
boys.
--
Richard Miller
of course they do but contraception is free from the family planning clinic
, the morning after pill is available too this information is readily
available to all teenagers so there is no real reason to have unplanned
pregnancies

apart from the fact that they get a flat supplied and furnished free of
charge
Phil Stovell
2004-04-03 18:37:26 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 19:31:42 +0100 in alt.uk.law, "steve robinson"
Post by steve robinson
apart from the fact that they get a flat supplied and furnished free of
charge
"Why am I here, Mummy?"

"So I could get a flat and some furniture".
--
Phil Stovell
South Hampshire, UK
a***@white-eagle.co.uk
2004-04-03 20:50:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve robinson
of course they do but contraception is free from the family planning clinic
It does not always work.
Post by steve robinson
, the morning after pill is available too this information is readily
Which is abortion by another name.
Post by steve robinson
available to all teenagers so there is no real reason to have unplanned
pregnancies
It happens, and not just with teenagers.

Axel
Matt
2004-04-03 21:09:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@white-eagle.co.uk
Post by steve robinson
of course they do but contraception is free from the family planning clinic
It does not always work.
Not always, but if you are mature enough, accidents happen far more
infrequently. How many people do you know that suffered an 'accidental'
pregnancy whilst using two types of contraceptive??
Post by a***@white-eagle.co.uk
Post by steve robinson
, the morning after pill is available too this information is readily
Which is abortion by another name.
How do you come to that conclusion. Could we have an explanation?
Post by a***@white-eagle.co.uk
It happens, and not just with teenagers.
Agreed, However teenagers generally are not as financially and mentally
capable of looking after a child aswell as someone who is in their 20's +
R. Mark Clayton
2004-04-03 23:00:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@white-eagle.co.uk
Post by steve robinson
of course they do but contraception is free from the family planning clinic
It does not always work.
Post by steve robinson
, the morning after pill is available too this information is readily
Which is abortion by another name.
NOT necessarily. MAP works by preventing fertilisation, preventing
implantation and causing the menses to occur normally (discarding a
fertilised egg if present on the placenta wall).

Only the last of these would ever be described as abortificant by anyone
other than a religious fundie*, and even then the argument is specious.
Post by a***@white-eagle.co.uk
Post by steve robinson
available to all teenagers so there is no real reason to have unplanned
pregnancies
It happens, and not just with teenagers.
But less often, due to maturity, better planning, and well - reduced drive.
Post by a***@white-eagle.co.uk
Axel
* according to my dictionary: - fundament -> "the anus" better know as an
****hole.
derek
2004-04-04 00:25:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@white-eagle.co.uk
Post by steve robinson
of course they do but contraception is free from the family planning clinic
It does not always work.
Oral contraception is almost 100% reliable if they actually take the
tablets Moses. Used together with condoms, which it should be to avoid
social diseases and we're into the realms of virgin birth.
Post by a***@white-eagle.co.uk
Post by steve robinson
, the morning after pill is available too this information is readily
Which is abortion by another name.
No it's not. It prevents a fertilised egg from implanting itself in
the womb. Many fertilised eggs fail to successfully implant.

The term abortion relates to the termination of a viable fetus not a
clump of four/eight cells.
Post by a***@white-eagle.co.uk
Post by steve robinson
available to all teenagers so there is no real reason to have unplanned
pregnancies
It happens, and not just with teenagers.
So what? Teenagers don't have the resources to do the parenting task
properly by civilised standards, unless someone else foots the bill,
even then they lack the maturity to do a good job of it.

Sorry, civilisation has a monetary cost, if young people behave like
farmyard beasts and don't have the resources to house, feed, and
educate their offspring (not being judgemental, you understand) then
there is a cost for somebody else in bringing their standard of living
and that of the child up to what we all regard as acceptible.

It is beginning to look as if the country can no longer support the
standard of living we had in the 1980/90's so whilst not wanting to
cast the first stone I wouldn't be keen to write the first blank
cheque either.

DG
a***@white-eagle.co.uk
2004-04-04 07:42:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by derek
Post by a***@white-eagle.co.uk
Post by steve robinson
, the morning after pill is available too this information is readily
Which is abortion by another name.
No it's not. It prevents a fertilised egg from implanting itself in
the womb. Many fertilised eggs fail to successfully implant.
I will refrain from replying on this point as there is no need to rehash
the abortion debate here.
Post by derek
Post by a***@white-eagle.co.uk
Post by steve robinson
available to all teenagers so there is no real reason to have unplanned
pregnancies
It happens, and not just with teenagers.
So what? Teenagers don't have the resources to do the parenting task
properly by civilised standards, unless someone else foots the bill,
even then they lack the maturity to do a good job of it.
That is an assumption which may well be true these days... the trend
seems to be to increase age of responsibility. I know someone who was
married and pregnant at 16... she did not rely on the state to fund
her... it was 30 years ago and things were different (saner perhaps)
then.
Post by derek
Sorry, civilisation has a monetary cost, if young people behave like
farmyard beasts and don't have the resources to house, feed, and
educate their offspring (not being judgemental, you understand) then
there is a cost for somebody else in bringing their standard of living
and that of the child up to what we all regard as acceptible.
Hey, there is still some life left in us old buggers!
Post by derek
It is beginning to look as if the country can no longer support the
standard of living we had in the 1980/90's so whilst not wanting to
cast the first stone I wouldn't be keen to write the first blank
cheque either.
But we do need young people... the current statistics show that we will
have an aging population with few people to support us.

Axel
Matt
2004-04-04 20:26:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@white-eagle.co.uk
Post by derek
No it's not. It prevents a fertilised egg from implanting itself in
the womb. Many fertilised eggs fail to successfully implant.
I will refrain from replying on this point as there is no need to rehash
the abortion debate here.
Cop out!!.

You initially began the abortion thread, so was wondering if you would
explain further.
steve robinson
2004-04-03 18:28:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Johnjo
Post by a***@white-eagle.co.uk
Post by Alasdair Baxter
According to an article in this month's Legal Action magazine on page
19, the Government has issued a White paper on bailiff law reform
http://www.dca.gov.uk/enforcement/wp/.
You are quite correct. I am disgusted with the system which persecutes
yong girls for trying to earn a few extra pounds a week while caring for
their baby (I know such a person... what answer... fine? gaol? for
trying to earn a few measly pounds?)
Perhaps if these young girls waited until they could afford to bring up
children without having to rely on the taxpayer before deciding to have
babies they wouldn't be so poor. As it is Britain's teenage pregnancy
record is a disgrace.
I think everyone has sympathy with those that have hit hard times but many
debtors actually manipulate the system to avoid paying
At the end of the day the real victims are the people and businesses who are
not receiving there payments when due

The whole system needs to be revamped and the sooner the bailiffs can
actually boot the door in to get payment the better
the debt dodgers then will no longer be able to hide behind the front door
knowing that no one can enter
I would go one step further , on judgement the debtor(if he or she fails or
has failed to cooperate which is the norm these days) has 7 days to pay
failing that all bank accounts should be frozen all wages, monies owed to
them would immediately be seized and bailiffs sent in to empty the houses .
If they cooperate agree reasonable repayment terms and keep to them then no
further action will be taken
if they break the agreement then immediately seize all assets .
it would be amazing how many people would suddenly pay up

one thing that I have always noticed since being in business is the genuine
people , those that have fell into debt through no fault of there own are
the ones that always cooperate keep up there payment agreements , contact
you if there a problem
they are more often than not never put through the court system
Paul C. Dickie
2004-04-04 02:29:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve robinson
The whole system needs to be revamped and the sooner the bailiffs can
actually boot the door in to get payment the better
the debt dodgers then will no longer be able to hide behind the front door
knowing that no one can enter
I would go one step further , on judgement the debtor(if he or she fails or
has failed to cooperate which is the norm these days) has 7 days to pay
failing that all bank accounts should be frozen all wages, monies owed to
them would immediately be seized and bailiffs sent in to empty the houses .
If they cooperate agree reasonable repayment terms and keep to them then no
further action will be taken
if they break the agreement then immediately seize all assets .
And their children taken to be rendered down at the local glue works...
Post by steve robinson
it would be amazing how many people would suddenly pay up
one thing that I have always noticed since being in business is the genuine
people , those that have fell into debt through no fault of there own are
the ones that always cooperate keep up there payment agreements , contact
you if there a problem
they are more often than not never put through the court system
One thing I've noticed on Usenet, time and again, is how those people
with authoritarian and right-wing views tend to be semi-literate at
best. Were they *all* gazing out of the window and dreaming of how
*they* would run the Empire when the teacher was attempting to teach
them how to spell?
--
< Paul >
a***@white-eagle.co.uk
2004-04-04 09:30:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul C. Dickie
One thing I've noticed on Usenet, time and again, is how those people
with authoritarian and right-wing views tend to be semi-literate at
best. Were they *all* gazing out of the window and dreaming of how
*they* would run the Empire when the teacher was attempting to teach
them how to spell?
I think these days it is 'left-wing' and 'authoritarian' which go hand
in hand - or perhaps it has always been so. I suppose I might be
considered 'right-wing' (much as I dislike such labels) although I hope
I am literate (excluding mistypings).

Axel
steve robinson
2004-04-04 17:34:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul C. Dickie
Post by steve robinson
The whole system needs to be revamped and the sooner the bailiffs can
actually boot the door in to get payment the better
the debt dodgers then will no longer be able to hide behind the front door
knowing that no one can enter
I would go one step further , on judgement the debtor(if he or she fails or
has failed to cooperate which is the norm these days) has 7 days to pay
failing that all bank accounts should be frozen all wages, monies owed to
them would immediately be seized and bailiffs sent in to empty the houses .
If they cooperate agree reasonable repayment terms and keep to them then no
further action will be taken
if they break the agreement then immediately seize all assets .
And their children taken to be rendered down at the local glue works...
Post by steve robinson
it would be amazing how many people would suddenly pay up
one thing that I have always noticed since being in business is the genuine
people , those that have fell into debt through no fault of there own are
the ones that always cooperate keep up there payment agreements , contact
you if there a problem
they are more often than not never put through the court system
One thing I've noticed on Usenet, time and again, is how those people
with authoritarian and right-wing views tend to be semi-literate at
best. Were they *all* gazing out of the window and dreaming of how
*they* would run the Empire when the teacher was attempting to teach
them how to spell?
--
< Paul >
my views are not right wing , if you ever are in the situation were you are
owed large amounts of money , by persons who have lied and cheated about
there financial position to gain an advantage which would not otherwise have
been granted , refuse to answer any communications , ignore court orders
etc , have the possibility that you may lose your own home and business by
there actions then your views would soon change or are you such a fool as
to believe that all would be rosy tomorrow

It is well known within the business community that the large majority of
domestic debtors now are using the system to avoid payment,in effect use
the business as a free bank loan. it is also the view of the business
community that the present system of collection is totally antiquated and
needs total modernisation if confidence is to be restored

Its time that the public realised that the real victims here are the
companies many that close under the pressure of bad debt and the people
that lose the jobs , not the fools who cannot understand basic
mathematical principles of budgeting there income
Richard Miller
2004-04-04 20:38:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve robinson
Its time that the public realised that the real victims here are the
companies many that close under the pressure of bad debt and the
people that lose the jobs , not the fools who cannot understand basic
mathematical principles of budgeting there income
If firms are closing under the weight of domestic bad debt, that is the
result of their own foolish credit arrangements. I have no sympathy, and
certainly do not see why they should be given the right to undertake
what amounts to legalised burglary on people to make up for their
stupidity.
--
Richard Miller
steve robinson
2004-04-04 21:36:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Miller
Post by steve robinson
Its time that the public realised that the real victims here are the
companies many that close under the pressure of bad debt and the
people that lose the jobs , not the fools who cannot understand basic
mathematical principles of budgeting there income
If firms are closing under the weight of domestic bad debt, that is the
result of their own foolish credit arrangements. I have no sympathy, and
certainly do not see why they should be given the right to undertake
what amounts to legalised burglary on people to make up for their
stupidity.
--
Richard Miller
What foolish credit arrangements are those Richard , customers are
constantly told not to pay up front so they wont

Most credit checking facilities for small businesses to use are inadequate
to say the least, customers lie about there work status , income and
outstanding debt if you bother reporting this to the police your told its a
civil matter when it clearly isn't (fraud , obtaining goods by deception but
to name two possible crimes)
It certainly isn't legalised burglary to attempt to get paid for the work
done or goods provided in good faith when the scum of this country are doing
all they can to cheat you out of your hard earned money

You would be first in the queue for a refund if a garage or builder had
overcharged you through your 'own foolishness' .
as your comments in previous posts have highlighted

you need a reality injection
Roger J. P. Jones
2004-04-04 22:31:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve robinson
Post by Richard Miller
Post by steve robinson
Its time that the public realised that the real victims here are the
companies many that close under the pressure of bad debt and the
people that lose the jobs , not the fools who cannot understand basic
mathematical principles of budgeting there income
If firms are closing under the weight of domestic bad debt, that is the
result of their own foolish credit arrangements. I have no sympathy, and
certainly do not see why they should be given the right to undertake
what amounts to legalised burglary on people to make up for their
stupidity.
--
Richard Miller
What foolish credit arrangements are those Richard , customers are
constantly told not to pay up front so they wont
Most credit checking facilities for small businesses to use are inadequate
to say the least, customers lie about there work status , income and
outstanding debt if you bother reporting this to the police your told its a
civil matter when it clearly isn't (fraud , obtaining goods by deception but
to name two possible crimes)
It certainly isn't legalised burglary to attempt to get paid for the work
done or goods provided in good faith when the scum of this country are doing
all they can to cheat you out of your hard earned money
You would be first in the queue for a refund if a garage or builder had
overcharged you through your 'own foolishness' .
as your comments in previous posts have highlighted
you need a reality injection
I take your point steve but the question must be asked how did we arrive
at this sad state of affairs?

I believe it stems from the top "WICKED" judges who plainly as in my
case, as with the Vice Chancellor Sir Robert Megarry and then only Mr
Justice Peter Gibson. In defiance of all logic and law but in defence
of MP`s (Government Ministers) and junior judiciary set such a bad
example to the Judiciary and Government Ministers (Both Party's in my
case.) that a catch as one can society was encouraged.
--
Roger J. P. Jones
Richard Miller
2004-04-05 18:35:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve robinson
Post by Richard Miller
Post by steve robinson
Its time that the public realised that the real victims here are the
companies many that close under the pressure of bad debt and the
people that lose the jobs , not the fools who cannot understand basic
mathematical principles of budgeting there income
If firms are closing under the weight of domestic bad debt, that is the
result of their own foolish credit arrangements. I have no sympathy, and
certainly do not see why they should be given the right to undertake
what amounts to legalised burglary on people to make up for their
stupidity.
--
Richard Miller
What foolish credit arrangements are those Richard , customers are
constantly told not to pay up front so they wont
Told by whom? Companies are free to do business on whatever terms they
see fit. They can take deposits, credit card details, take charges
against property, all sorts of measures to avoid bad debt. It won't
always work, but any firm that has enough domestic bad debt to collapse
is either managing its credit arrangements badly or doing bad work.
Post by steve robinson
Most credit checking facilities for small businesses to use are inadequate
to say the least, customers lie about there work status , income and
outstanding debt if you bother reporting this to the police your told its a
civil matter when it clearly isn't (fraud , obtaining goods by deception but
to name two possible crimes)
It certainly isn't legalised burglary to attempt to get paid for the work
done or goods provided in good faith when the scum of this country are doing
all they can to cheat you out of your hard earned money
It is legalised burglary to break into someone's home and take their
belongings.
Post by steve robinson
You would be first in the queue for a refund if a garage or builder had
overcharged you through your 'own foolishness' .
as your comments in previous posts have highlighted
How do you mean?
Post by steve robinson
you need a reality injection
And you need a course on good business management.
--
Richard Miller
steve robinson
2004-04-06 08:20:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Miller
Post by steve robinson
Post by Richard Miller
Post by steve robinson
Its time that the public realised that the real victims here are the
companies many that close under the pressure of bad debt and the
people that lose the jobs , not the fools who cannot understand basic
mathematical principles of budgeting there income
If firms are closing under the weight of domestic bad debt, that is the
result of their own foolish credit arrangements. I have no sympathy, and
certainly do not see why they should be given the right to undertake
what amounts to legalised burglary on people to make up for their
stupidity.
--
Richard Miller
What foolish credit arrangements are those Richard , customers are
constantly told not to pay up front so they wont
Told by whom? Companies are free to do business on whatever terms they
see fit. They can take deposits, credit card details, take charges
against property, all sorts of measures to avoid bad debt. It won't
always work, but any firm that has enough domestic bad debt to collapse
is either managing its credit arrangements badly or doing bad work.
Post by steve robinson
Most credit checking facilities for small businesses to use are inadequate
to say the least, customers lie about there work status , income and
outstanding debt if you bother reporting this to the police your told its a
civil matter when it clearly isn't (fraud , obtaining goods by deception but
to name two possible crimes)
It certainly isn't legalised burglary to attempt to get paid for the work
done or goods provided in good faith when the scum of this country are doing
all they can to cheat you out of your hard earned money
It is legalised burglary to break into someone's home and take their
belongings.
Post by steve robinson
You would be first in the queue for a refund if a garage or builder had
overcharged you through your 'own foolishness' .
as your comments in previous posts have highlighted
How do you mean?
Post by steve robinson
you need a reality injection
And you need a course on good business management.
--
most watchdog , name and shame , style programmes trading standards , local
press articles all advice not to pay up front for
building works , conservatories , replacement windows , kitchens ,
bathrooms landscaping car repairs etc .

for most of the above credit card facilities are not available and they are
generally high value transactions

if you set terms and conditions of payment that are dissimilar to the rest
of your competitors you end up without any customers

whilst taking a deposit (most customers will not hand over more than
£100.00) is always preferable it does not mean the whole invoice value
would be honoured , its very difficult to cease a conservatory or windows
back , go and knock the extension down and you get sued

Charging orders against property are time consuming to obtain and do not put
the money in your bank account ,
If the house is heavily mortgaged as well in a forced sale the chances of
getting all your money are remote
Getting a forced sale is another issue many courts will only do this as a
last resort , especially if the debt is only a small percentage of the
property value and children live at the address .

going for bankruptcy every expensive not very effective

third party orders again not very effective people are wise to these . to
get the information to serve one you need to get a statement of there
affairs off them , once they give the statement to the courts they move
banks / building societies making it impossible to serve , attachment to
earnings are only effective against the employed , they just move jobs or
go self employed



If as you keep saying it would be legalised burglary then surely not paying
your bills is legalised theft from the supplier




considering I have been in business for 20 plus years I don't think so ,
Richard Miller
2004-04-06 18:16:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve robinson
--
most watchdog , name and shame , style programmes trading standards , local
press articles all advice not to pay up front for
building works , conservatories , replacement windows , kitchens ,
bathrooms landscaping car repairs etc .
for most of the above credit card facilities are not available and they are
generally high value transactions
if you set terms and conditions of payment that are dissimilar to the rest
of your competitors you end up without any customers
whilst taking a deposit (most customers will not hand over more than
£100.00) is always preferable it does not mean the whole invoice value
would be honoured , its very difficult to cease a conservatory or windows
back , go and knock the extension down and you get sued
Charging orders against property are time consuming to obtain and do not put
the money in your bank account ,
If the house is heavily mortgaged as well in a forced sale the chances of
getting all your money are remote
Getting a forced sale is another issue many courts will only do this as a
last resort , especially if the debt is only a small percentage of the
property value and children live at the address .
going for bankruptcy every expensive not very effective
third party orders again not very effective people are wise to these . to
get the information to serve one you need to get a statement of there
affairs off them , once they give the statement to the courts they move
banks / building societies making it impossible to serve , attachment to
earnings are only effective against the employed , they just move jobs or
go self employed
If as you keep saying it would be legalised burglary then surely not paying
your bills is legalised theft from the supplier
considering I have been in business for 20 plus years I don't think so ,
Conversely, you want a situation in which a cowboy builder can now not
only damage a house beyond repair, they can then send in the burglars to
steal property from their original victim to make him pay for the
privilege.

OK, so now let's both come in from the extremes a little.

I agree that there need to be some improvements in the enforcement of
judgements. I just don't agree that allowing bailiffs to become burglars
is the right way to go about it.

Better accreditation of the building trade and clampdowns on cowboys
would enable businesses such as you describe to expect a greater degree
of trust from their customers.

Perhaps better terms of business might be to pay the agreed contract
price "into escrow" in an account in joint names which neither party can
touch without the consent of the other or a Court order. The money is
there, and each party is suitably protected.
--
Richard Miller
Roger J. P. Jones
2004-04-06 08:44:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Miller
And you need a course on good business management.
So do you Miller. Below an experience of mine regarding CONTROL
of Council men of the Bailiff type:

Roger J P Jones 12 Windmill St Deddington Banbury OX15 OQW Phone 01869
338845 Fax 08700 568457 - A Letter I received, dated the 14
October 1996, from the LOCAL GOVERNMENT OMBUDSMAN.

( I have built a pig farm including my own home carrying out much of the
work myself etc.)

Headed. ------- The Commission for Local Administration in England.

J R WHITE - Local Government Ombudsman. - N H Jones Acting Director.
The Oaks No2 Westwood Way. Westwood business Park. Coventry CV4 8JB

-------------
As I understand it your complaints concerns matters regarding disabled
facilities grant works carried out to your home in 1993. You have
complained that officers failed to administer properly the payments of
monies and supervision of works.

Your complaints have been subject to an internal investigation by the
Councils Chief Executive, and investigation by the District Auditor and
an inquiry by the Audit Commission. The Ombudsman's job is to look as to
questions of injustice Caused by maladministration and recommend
remedies for any such injustice. It seems to me that any investigation
by this office would be unlikely to add anything to those of the
District Auditor and the Audit Commission Indeed it seems to me that
your complaint concerns the misuse of public funds rather than any
injustice you have suffered personally. This is the sort of matter we
would normally refer to the District Auditor.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! = WORDS, WORDS +WORDS
You have complained that officers failed to administer properly the
payments of monies and supervision of works.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!NOT ME GOV!!! -- NOT ME ---- I NEVER
HAD MY HAND IN THE TILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
--
Roger J. P. Jones
Roger J. P. Jones
2004-04-04 22:02:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Miller
Post by steve robinson
Its time that the public realised that the real victims here are the
companies many that close under the pressure of bad debt and the
people that lose the jobs , not the fools who cannot understand basic
mathematical principles of budgeting there income
If firms are closing under the weight of domestic bad debt, that is the
result of their own foolish credit arrangements. I have no sympathy,
and certainly do not see why they should be given the right to
undertake what amounts to legalised burglary on people to make up for
their stupidity.
Miller you really may have a strong, and perhaps even dormant nice side
to you. Together with a good grasp of law and common sense, as displayed
above.

However I must say in your failure to expose the "Uncontrolled Gang Self
Defence" of the Judiciary including the Police and the Law Society. I
must say given your work and the ever increasing tide of "Whistle
Blowers" can not bode will for your future. I understand serious
"Misconduct in Public Office" carries a seven year sentence.
--
Roger J. P. Jones
Roger J. P. Jones
2004-04-05 09:55:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger J. P. Jones
Post by Richard Miller
Post by steve robinson
Its time that the public realised that the real victims here are the
companies many that close under the pressure of bad debt and the
people that lose the jobs , not the fools who cannot understand
basic mathematical principles of budgeting there income
If firms are closing under the weight of domestic bad debt, that is
the result of their own foolish credit arrangements. I have no
sympathy, and certainly do not see why they should be given the right
to undertake what amounts to legalised burglary on people to make up
for their stupidity.
Miller you really may have a strong, and perhaps even dormant nice side
to you.
Together with a good grasp of law and common sense, as displayed above.
However I must say in your failure to expose the "Uncontrolled Gang
Self Defence" of the Judiciary including the Police and the Law Society.
I must
also
Post by Roger J. P. Jones
say given your work and the ever increasing tide of "Whistle Blowers"
can not bode will for your future.
What is your work now???
Training young solicitors how to think? What values they should aspire
to?
Post by Roger J. P. Jones
I understand serious "Misconduct in Public Office" carries a seven
year sentence.
"IN OVER" 6 years it is of note. That "you" have "never replied" to
"even once" to any of my inputs on uk.legal.

OK, we went to that meeting of uk.legal in a 1/2 cellar in London 6
years ago and I had put on a business suet. OK, I looked smart & indeed
can be at times extremely articulate at times. OK, I have embarrassed
first hand, as a LIP the best top judges "British Justice" has to offer.

But are you a man or a mouse?
--
Roger J. P. Jones
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