Discussion:
Britain has never looked so foolish in the world's eyes
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MM
2018-11-06 11:37:52 UTC
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Permalink
By Jan Fleischhauer. See link at end.

"It’s symptomatic of Britain’s decline when a man such as Boris
Johnson is regarded as one of its clearest thinkers"

"I have always admired the British. We owe them afternoon tea, Monty
Python and the Beatles. This is more than many nations have achieved
in their history. I was also one of the few columnists in Germany who
found it ridiculous to be angry at our British neighbours after they
decided to leave the European club they had once helped to make great.
I felt sorry whenever I saw the British prime minister stumble through
a European summit, with her crooked smile and her even more crooked
offers. Right now, though, I’m feeling less sympathetic. In fact, I
have been catching myself thinking: 'Go with God. But go!' Maybe this
week could be the week things become clear. But who would bet on it?

"The UK is making a spectacular demonstration of how to make a fool of
yourself with the entire world looking on. What was once the most
powerful empire on Earth can’t even find its way to the door without
tripping over its own feet. When Theresa May arrives in Brussels with
yet another proposal, you can be sure it won’t be worth the paper it’s
written 24 hours later. She either presents ideas that Brussels has
long ago rejected, her plans have been rejected by her own party, or
Boris Johnson tears them to pieces in his newspaper column.

"No deal is better than a bad deal? If you are convinced of this: go
ahead. A hard Brexit will cost the rest of us a lot -- there’s no
question about that -- but it is nothing compared to what is awaiting
you Britons.

"First the trucks will be jammed all the way to Wales, because the
borders are back. Then the fuel will run out at filling stations and
medicines will run out in pharmacies. And once all the Polish plumbers
have gone home, there will be nobody to call when the toilet gets
blocked.

"So there you are: left in your water-damaged homes, without fuel and
aspirins, but with extremely bad-tempered Russians as neighbours. And
they will realise they have invested far too much money in the English
real estate market and will be incensed because their investments are
going down the drain.

"When I mocked the Brexit chaos in Der Spiegel recently, I received a
lot of mail saying that this wasn’t fair. One line of attack was that
only the English had voted to leave the European Union, so it was not
a British decision. Second, the government in London wouldn’t speak up
for right-thinking people who want to stay close to the EU.

"I can only say: sorry, folks, but it doesn’t work to declare the
government a kind of foreign power, whose rise can’t really be
explained. We Germans have tried to pull this nifty trick a few times
ourselves. Unfortunately, in a democracy any government that has come
into office not through a coup but through free elections is regarded
as an expression of the will of the people. That is why we are talking
about representative democracy.

"Almost everyone who has had a say in this adventure seems to belong
to the British establishment, meaning they went to an outrageously
expensive private school and completed their studies at Cambridge or
Oxford. What in the name of God do they teach them? It certainly can’t
be skills that prepare them for the real world. Or would you trust a
manager who regularly shows up to negotiations so haphazardly that
they have to be broken off again after just a few minutes?

"Wherever you look, you see buffoons. Of Johnson you can at least say
the man knows something about intrigue. He’s also a brilliant writer,
which naturally endears him to a columnist such as me. But, hand on
heart, what does it tell us about a country when a man like Johnson is
regarded as one of the clearest-thinking minds in the circle of power?

"Two weeks ago May had a chance to present her ideas for an orderly
exit to the other 27 EU heads. She left them confused, and trying to
figure out the meaning of her presentation over dinner. Angela Merkel
indicated that she didn’t really understand what May had said, but
that she would ask the Brexit chief negotiator Michel Barnier to
explain it to her. I didn’t make that up; Bloomberg reported it.

"The disadvantage of being intelligent is that it hurts when you act
stupid. The fool doesn’t feel this pain because they don’t have to
pretend. For a nation, the problem begins when the level of stupidity
at the top is unusually high, because the smarter people have thrown
in the towel. This is generally the point at which decline becomes
inevitable."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/06/britain-foolish-decline-boris-johnson

MM
BurfordTJustice
2018-11-06 11:57:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
"MM" <***@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: By Jan Fleischhauer. See link at end.
:
: "It's symptomatic of Britain's decline when a man such as Boris
: Johnson is regarded as one of its clearest thinkers"
:
: "I have always admired the British. We owe them afternoon tea, Monty
: Python and the Beatles. This is more than many nations have achieved
: in their history. I was also one of the few columnists in Germany who
: found it ridiculous to be angry at our British neighbours after they
: decided to leave the European club they had once helped to make great.
: I felt sorry whenever I saw the British prime minister stumble through
: a European summit, with her crooked smile and her even more crooked
: offers. Right now, though, I'm feeling less sympathetic. In fact, I
: have been catching myself thinking: 'Go with God. But go!' Maybe this
: week could be the week things become clear. But who would bet on it?
:
: "The UK is making a spectacular demonstration of how to make a fool of
: yourself with the entire world looking on. What was once the most
: powerful empire on Earth can't even find its way to the door without
: tripping over its own feet. When Theresa May arrives in Brussels with
: yet another proposal, you can be sure it won't be worth the paper it's
: written 24 hours later. She either presents ideas that Brussels has
: long ago rejected, her plans have been rejected by her own party, or
: Boris Johnson tears them to pieces in his newspaper column.
:
: "No deal is better than a bad deal? If you are convinced of this: go
: ahead. A hard Brexit will cost the rest of us a lot -- there's no
: question about that -- but it is nothing compared to what is awaiting
: you Britons.
:
: "First the trucks will be jammed all the way to Wales, because the
: borders are back. Then the fuel will run out at filling stations and
: medicines will run out in pharmacies. And once all the Polish plumbers
: have gone home, there will be nobody to call when the toilet gets
: blocked.
:
: "So there you are: left in your water-damaged homes, without fuel and
: aspirins, but with extremely bad-tempered Russians as neighbours. And
: they will realise they have invested far too much money in the English
: real estate market and will be incensed because their investments are
: going down the drain.
:
: "When I mocked the Brexit chaos in Der Spiegel recently, I received a
: lot of mail saying that this wasn't fair. One line of attack was that
: only the English had voted to leave the European Union, so it was not
: a British decision. Second, the government in London wouldn't speak up
: for right-thinking people who want to stay close to the EU.
:
: "I can only say: sorry, folks, but it doesn't work to declare the
: government a kind of foreign power, whose rise can't really be
: explained. We Germans have tried to pull this nifty trick a few times
: ourselves. Unfortunately, in a democracy any government that has come
: into office not through a coup but through free elections is regarded
: as an expression of the will of the people. That is why we are talking
: about representative democracy.
:
: "Almost everyone who has had a say in this adventure seems to belong
: to the British establishment, meaning they went to an outrageously
: expensive private school and completed their studies at Cambridge or
: Oxford. What in the name of God do they teach them? It certainly can't
: be skills that prepare them for the real world. Or would you trust a
: manager who regularly shows up to negotiations so haphazardly that
: they have to be broken off again after just a few minutes?
:
: "Wherever you look, you see buffoons. Of Johnson you can at least say
: the man knows something about intrigue. He's also a brilliant writer,
: which naturally endears him to a columnist such as me. But, hand on
: heart, what does it tell us about a country when a man like Johnson is
: regarded as one of the clearest-thinking minds in the circle of power?
:
: "Two weeks ago May had a chance to present her ideas for an orderly
: exit to the other 27 EU heads. She left them confused, and trying to
: figure out the meaning of her presentation over dinner. Angela Merkel
: indicated that she didn't really understand what May had said, but
: that she would ask the Brexit chief negotiator Michel Barnier to
: explain it to her. I didn't make that up; Bloomberg reported it.
:
: "The disadvantage of being intelligent is that it hurts when you act
: stupid. The fool doesn't feel this pain because they don't have to
: pretend. For a nation, the problem begins when the level of stupidity
: at the top is unusually high, because the smarter people have thrown
: in the towel. This is generally the point at which decline becomes
: inevitable."
:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/06/britain-foolish-decline-boris-johnson
:
: MM
Handsome Jack
2018-11-06 16:39:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MM
By Jan Fleischhauer. See link at end.
"It’s symptomatic of Britain’s decline when a man such as Boris
Johnson is regarded as one of its clearest thinkers"
[snip rant that can be summed up in the standard Remainer slogan, "I'm
really clever and everybody who disagrees with me is stupid, so there."]
--
Jack
JNugent
2018-11-06 17:48:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by MM
By Jan Fleischhauer. See link at end.
"It’s symptomatic of Britain’s decline when a man such as Boris
Johnson is regarded as one of its clearest thinkers"
[snip rant that can be summed up in the standard Remainer slogan, "I'm
really clever and everybody who disagrees with me is stupid, so there."]
It is particularly attractive to posters (such as MM) who had no real
education.
Judith Smith
2018-11-08 15:37:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by MM
By Jan Fleischhauer. See link at end.
"It’s symptomatic of Britain’s decline when a man such as Boris
Johnson is regarded as one of its clearest thinkers"
[snip rant that can be summed up in the standard Remainer slogan, "I'm
really clever and everybody who disagrees with me is stupid, so there."]
I've not been following this much.

Can you share with me what the solution to the NI problem is please?
JNugent
2018-11-08 17:29:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Judith Smith
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by MM
By Jan Fleischhauer. See link at end.
"It’s symptomatic of Britain’s decline when a man such as Boris
Johnson is regarded as one of its clearest thinkers"
[snip rant that can be summed up in the standard Remainer slogan, "I'm
really clever and everybody who disagrees with me is stupid, so there."]
I've not been following this much.
Can you share with me what the solution to the NI problem is please?
The most obvious solution to the so-called "NI problem" would be for
Ireland to leave the EU, thus retaining and preserving its closest
relationship with the UK.

Though some will affect to splutter with indignation at rhe very idea,
it is best remembered that Ireland only joined (the Common Market) in
the first place because the UK did.
R. Mark Clayton
2018-11-08 20:48:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Judith Smith
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by MM
By Jan Fleischhauer. See link at end.
"It’s symptomatic of Britain’s decline when a man such as Boris
Johnson is regarded as one of its clearest thinkers"
[snip rant that can be summed up in the standard Remainer slogan, "I'm
really clever and everybody who disagrees with me is stupid, so there."]
I've not been following this much.
Can you share with me what the solution to the NI problem is please?
The most obvious solution to the so-called "NI problem" would be for
Ireland to leave the EU, thus retaining and preserving its closest
relationship with the UK.
The UK might just have enough clout to be able to cut trade deals with the rest of the world, although Liam Fox's moluscine performance means it would take 45 years to replicate the ones we already have through the EU. And very probably we will be substantially worse off after Brexit.

Ireland is quite a small country, and despite the stereotypes are not so stupid as to follow the UK into economic isolation.
Post by JNugent
Though some will affect to splutter with indignation at rhe very idea,
it is best remembered that Ireland only joined (the Common Market) in
the first place because the UK did.
Really - I suppose the other 27 members all joined for the same reason - or was it perhaps because unlike Leavers they all realised that they and their citizens would be better off if they did.
JNugent
2018-11-09 00:23:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Post by Judith Smith
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by MM
By Jan Fleischhauer. See link at end.
"It’s symptomatic of Britain’s decline when a man such as Boris
Johnson is regarded as one of its clearest thinkers"
[snip rant that can be summed up in the standard Remainer slogan, "I'm
really clever and everybody who disagrees with me is stupid, so there."]
I've not been following this much.
Can you share with me what the solution to the NI problem is please?
The most obvious solution to the so-called "NI problem" would be for
Ireland to leave the EU, thus retaining and preserving its closest
relationship with the UK.
The UK might just have enough clout to be able to cut trade deals with the rest of the world, although Liam Fox's moluscine performance means it would take 45 years to replicate the ones we already have through the EU. And very probably we will be substantially worse off after Brexit.
Ireland is quite a small country, and despite the stereotypes are not so stupid as to follow the UK into economic isolation.
Post by JNugent
Though some will affect to splutter with indignation at rhe very idea,
it is best remembered that Ireland only joined (the Common Market) in
the first place because the UK did.
Really
Yes, really.

Had it applied on its own it would have been refused (just like the UK
had been in the early-mid-sixties).
Post by R. Mark Clayton
- I suppose the other 27 members all joined for the same reason
Do you?

Really?

Why do you suppose that? There's no evidence to support it. But in
Ireland's case, there's plenty: thae main bit being that that is how it
happened.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
- or was it perhaps because unlike Leavers they all realised that they and their citizens would be better off if they did.
You're always better off if you can export half your unemployment and
housing problems to the UK and also get several billions a year from the
UK taxpayer via the EU.
R. Mark Clayton
2018-11-09 10:25:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
SNIP
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Ireland is quite a small country, and despite the stereotypes are not so stupid as to follow the UK into economic isolation.
Post by JNugent
Though some will affect to splutter with indignation at rhe very idea,
it is best remembered that Ireland only joined (the Common Market) in
the first place because the UK did.
Really
Yes, really.
Had it applied on its own it would have been refused (just like the UK
had been in the early-mid-sixties).
Like all the other small countries that have applied since - so not really.
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
- I suppose the other 27 members all joined for the same reason
Do you?
Really?
Why do you suppose that? There's no evidence to support it. But in
Ireland's case, there's plenty: thae main bit being that that is how it
happened.
Irony is lost on you. Of course that assertion is ridiculous - it was to show that your assertion about Ireland was rubbish - thanks for the swift confirmation!
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
- or was it perhaps because unlike Leavers they all realised that they and their citizens would be better off if they did.
You're always better off if you can export half your unemployment and
housing problems to the UK and also get several billions a year from the
UK taxpayer via the EU.
Also false of course - did say Spanish unemployment, especially youth unemployment, come to the UK - no it did not.

Loading Image...

See separate thread for this.
JNugent
2018-11-09 13:45:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R. Mark Clayton
SNIP
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Ireland is quite a small country, and despite the stereotypes are not so stupid as to follow the UK into economic isolation.
Post by JNugent
Though some will affect to splutter with indignation at rhe very idea,
it is best remembered that Ireland only joined (the Common Market) in
the first place because the UK did.
Really
Yes, really.
Had it applied on its own it would have been refused (just like the UK
had been in the early-mid-sixties).
Like all the other small countries that have applied since - so not really.
Your usual uneducated, uninformed nonsense.

Even the UK was refused when the McMillan / Home government applied in
the early-to-mid sixties (with Heath doing the leg work). You may
remember a chap called "De Gaulle", who had never forgiven the UK for
winning the second world war without him.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
- I suppose the other 27 members all joined for the same reason
Do you?
Really?
Why do you suppose that? There's no evidence to support it. But in
Ireland's case, there's plenty: thae main bit being that that is how it
happened.
Irony is lost on you.
You have no talent for irony. Re-read what you wrote. It was playground
stuff.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Of course that assertion is ridiculous
Yes, I made an observation to that exact end.

- it was to show that your assertion about Ireland was rubbish -
thanks for the swift confirmation!

If you "think" that Ireland wouild have been admitted to the Common
Market on its own - with all its ties to the UK - you are in a fantasy
world.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
- or was it perhaps because unlike Leavers they all realised that they and their citizens would be better off if they did.
You're always better off if you can export half your unemployment and
housing problems to the UK and also get several billions a year from the
UK taxpayer via the EU.
Also false of course - did say Spanish unemployment, especially youth unemployment, come to the UK - no it did not.
Some of it has. But I was referring mainly to eastern Europe.
R. Mark Clayton
2018-11-09 14:29:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
SNIP
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Ireland is quite a small country, and despite the stereotypes are not so stupid as to follow the UK into economic isolation.
Post by JNugent
Though some will affect to splutter with indignation at rhe very idea,
it is best remembered that Ireland only joined (the Common Market) in
the first place because the UK did.
Really
Yes, really.
Had it applied on its own it would have been refused (just like the UK
had been in the early-mid-sixties).
Like all the other small countries that have applied since - so not really.
Your usual uneducated, uninformed nonsense.
Even the UK was refused when the McMillan / Home government applied in
the early-to-mid sixties (with Heath doing the leg work). You may
remember a chap called "De Gaulle", who had never forgiven the UK for
winning the second world war without him.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
- I suppose the other 27 members all joined for the same reason
Do you?
Really?
Why do you suppose that? There's no evidence to support it. But in
Ireland's case, there's plenty: thae main bit being that that is how it
happened.
Irony is lost on you.
You have no talent for irony. Re-read what you wrote. It was playground
stuff.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Of course that assertion is ridiculous
Yes, I made an observation to that exact end.
- it was to show that your assertion about Ireland was rubbish -
thanks for the swift confirmation!
If you "think" that Ireland wouild have been admitted to the Common
Market on its own - with all its ties to the UK - you are in a fantasy
world.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
- or was it perhaps because unlike Leavers they all realised that they and their citizens would be better off if they did.
You're always better off if you can export half your unemployment and
housing problems to the UK and also get several billions a year from the
UK taxpayer via the EU.
Also false of course - did say Spanish unemployment, especially youth unemployment, come to the UK - no it did not.
Some of it has. But I was referring mainly to eastern Europe.
No the plumbers, plasterers, joiners etc. from eastern Europe mostly had jobs there, but came for more money (albeit some with large families were further encouraged by lunatic *UK* working benefit rules) - just the same as qualified people from places like Stoke, Hull and Middlesbrough migrate to London and Manchester for the same reason.
JNugent
2018-11-09 14:31:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
SNIP
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Ireland is quite a small country, and despite the stereotypes are not so stupid as to follow the UK into economic isolation.
Post by JNugent
Though some will affect to splutter with indignation at rhe very idea,
it is best remembered that Ireland only joined (the Common Market) in
the first place because the UK did.
Really
Yes, really.
Had it applied on its own it would have been refused (just like the UK
had been in the early-mid-sixties).
Like all the other small countries that have applied since - so not really.
Your usual uneducated, uninformed nonsense.
Even the UK was refused when the McMillan / Home government applied in
the early-to-mid sixties (with Heath doing the leg work). You may
remember a chap called "De Gaulle", who had never forgiven the UK for
winning the second world war without him.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
- I suppose the other 27 members all joined for the same reason
Do you?
Really?
Why do you suppose that? There's no evidence to support it. But in
Ireland's case, there's plenty: thae main bit being that that is how it
happened.
Irony is lost on you.
You have no talent for irony. Re-read what you wrote. It was playground
stuff.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Of course that assertion is ridiculous
Yes, I made an observation to that exact end.
- it was to show that your assertion about Ireland was rubbish -
thanks for the swift confirmation!
If you "think" that Ireland wouild have been admitted to the Common
Market on its own - with all its ties to the UK - you are in a fantasy
world.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
- or was it perhaps because unlike Leavers they all realised that they and their citizens would be better off if they did.
You're always better off if you can export half your unemployment and
housing problems to the UK and also get several billions a year from the
UK taxpayer via the EU.
Also false of course - did say Spanish unemployment, especially youth unemployment, come to the UK - no it did not.
Some of it has. But I was referring mainly to eastern Europe.
No the plumbers, plasterers, joiners etc. from eastern Europe mostly had jobs there, but came for more money (albeit some with large families were further encouraged by lunatic *UK* working benefit rules) - just the same as qualified people from places like Stoke, Hull and Middlesbrough migrate to London and Manchester for the same reason.
"Just the same"?

This "sameness" was brought about solely by membership of the EU.
Foreigners have no right to come to the UK and work unless they are
specifically given it. That's part of what being a sovereign,
independent nation means.
MM
2018-11-10 09:20:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
SNIP
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Ireland is quite a small country, and despite the stereotypes are not so stupid as to follow the UK into economic isolation.
Post by JNugent
Though some will affect to splutter with indignation at rhe very idea,
it is best remembered that Ireland only joined (the Common Market) in
the first place because the UK did.
Really
Yes, really.
Had it applied on its own it would have been refused (just like the UK
had been in the early-mid-sixties).
Like all the other small countries that have applied since - so not really.
Your usual uneducated, uninformed nonsense.
Even the UK was refused when the McMillan / Home government applied in
the early-to-mid sixties (with Heath doing the leg work). You may
remember a chap called "De Gaulle", who had never forgiven the UK for
winning the second world war without him.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
- I suppose the other 27 members all joined for the same reason
Do you?
Really?
Why do you suppose that? There's no evidence to support it. But in
Ireland's case, there's plenty: thae main bit being that that is how it
happened.
Irony is lost on you.
You have no talent for irony. Re-read what you wrote. It was playground
stuff.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Of course that assertion is ridiculous
Yes, I made an observation to that exact end.
- it was to show that your assertion about Ireland was rubbish -
thanks for the swift confirmation!
If you "think" that Ireland wouild have been admitted to the Common
Market on its own - with all its ties to the UK - you are in a fantasy
world.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
- or was it perhaps because unlike Leavers they all realised that they and their citizens would be better off if they did.
You're always better off if you can export half your unemployment and
housing problems to the UK and also get several billions a year from the
UK taxpayer via the EU.
Also false of course - did say Spanish unemployment, especially youth unemployment, come to the UK - no it did not.
Some of it has. But I was referring mainly to eastern Europe.
No the plumbers, plasterers, joiners etc. from eastern Europe mostly had jobs there, but came for more money (albeit some with large families were further encouraged by lunatic *UK* working benefit rules) - just the same as qualified people from places like Stoke, Hull and Middlesbrough migrate to London and Manchester for the same reason.
"Just the same"?
This "sameness" was brought about solely by membership of the EU.
Foreigners have no right to come to the UK and work unless they are
specifically given it. That's part of what being a sovereign,
independent nation means.
Are you a nationalist?

MM
JNugent
2018-11-10 17:11:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MM
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
SNIP
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Ireland is quite a small country, and despite the stereotypes are not so stupid as to follow the UK into economic isolation.
Post by JNugent
Though some will affect to splutter with indignation at rhe very idea,
it is best remembered that Ireland only joined (the Common Market) in
the first place because the UK did.
Really
Yes, really.
Had it applied on its own it would have been refused (just like the UK
had been in the early-mid-sixties).
Like all the other small countries that have applied since - so not really.
Your usual uneducated, uninformed nonsense.
Even the UK was refused when the McMillan / Home government applied in
the early-to-mid sixties (with Heath doing the leg work). You may
remember a chap called "De Gaulle", who had never forgiven the UK for
winning the second world war without him.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
- I suppose the other 27 members all joined for the same reason
Do you?
Really?
Why do you suppose that? There's no evidence to support it. But in
Ireland's case, there's plenty: thae main bit being that that is how it
happened.
Irony is lost on you.
You have no talent for irony. Re-read what you wrote. It was playground
stuff.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Of course that assertion is ridiculous
Yes, I made an observation to that exact end.
- it was to show that your assertion about Ireland was rubbish -
thanks for the swift confirmation!
If you "think" that Ireland wouild have been admitted to the Common
Market on its own - with all its ties to the UK - you are in a fantasy
world.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
- or was it perhaps because unlike Leavers they all realised that they and their citizens would be better off if they did.
You're always better off if you can export half your unemployment and
housing problems to the UK and also get several billions a year from the
UK taxpayer via the EU.
Also false of course - did say Spanish unemployment, especially youth unemployment, come to the UK - no it did not.
Some of it has. But I was referring mainly to eastern Europe.
No the plumbers, plasterers, joiners etc. from eastern Europe mostly had jobs there, but came for more money (albeit some with large families were further encouraged by lunatic *UK* working benefit rules) - just the same as qualified people from places like Stoke, Hull and Middlesbrough migrate to London and Manchester for the same reason.
"Just the same"?
This "sameness" was brought about solely by membership of the EU.
Foreigners have no right to come to the UK and work unless they are
specifically given it. That's part of what being a sovereign,
independent nation means.
Are you a nationalist?
What is a nationalist?
MM
2018-11-11 10:30:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by MM
Are you a nationalist?
What is a nationalist?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism

MM
JNugent
2018-11-11 16:23:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MM
Post by JNugent
Post by MM
Are you a nationalist?
What is a nationalist?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism
In your own words... you get no points for plagiarism.
MM
2018-11-12 10:23:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by MM
Post by JNugent
Post by MM
Are you a nationalist?
What is a nationalist?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism
In your own words... you get no points for plagiarism.
When will your answer be forthcoming? About whether you are a
nationalist?

MM
JNugent
2018-11-12 11:14:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MM
Post by JNugent
Post by MM
Post by JNugent
Post by MM
Are you a nationalist?
What is a nationalist?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism
In your own words... you get no points for plagiarism.
When will your answer be forthcoming?
When I get something to answer which is written and posed in your own
words, and not just a peremptory command to read and infer a question at
a referenced website.

Get on with it.
Pamela
2018-11-12 16:07:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by MM
Post by JNugent
Post by MM
Are you a nationalist?
What is a nationalist?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism
In your own words... you get no points for plagiarism.
It seems clearly enough explained at Wikipedia. Why don't you answer?
MM
2018-11-10 09:18:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
SNIP
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Ireland is quite a small country, and despite the stereotypes are not so stupid as to follow the UK into economic isolation.
Post by JNugent
Though some will affect to splutter with indignation at rhe very idea,
it is best remembered that Ireland only joined (the Common Market) in
the first place because the UK did.
Really
Yes, really.
Had it applied on its own it would have been refused (just like the UK
had been in the early-mid-sixties).
Like all the other small countries that have applied since - so not really.
Your usual uneducated, uninformed nonsense.
Even the UK was refused when the McMillan / Home government applied in
the early-to-mid sixties (with Heath doing the leg work). You may
remember a chap called "De Gaulle", who had never forgiven the UK for
winning the second world war without him.
It was the Allies who won, largely because of American and Russian
involvement. We did a fair bit early on in the Battle of Britain. But
we also got totally bogged down at Dunkirk. Later, Bomber Command was
not forgiven for decades for its bombing of Dresden in the final
throes of the war. Nothing to crow about.

MM
JNugent
2018-11-10 17:11:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MM
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
SNIP
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Ireland is quite a small country, and despite the stereotypes are not so stupid as to follow the UK into economic isolation.
Post by JNugent
Though some will affect to splutter with indignation at rhe very idea,
it is best remembered that Ireland only joined (the Common Market) in
the first place because the UK did.
Really
Yes, really.
Had it applied on its own it would have been refused (just like the UK
had been in the early-mid-sixties).
Like all the other small countries that have applied since - so not really.
Your usual uneducated, uninformed nonsense.
Even the UK was refused when the McMillan / Home government applied in
the early-to-mid sixties (with Heath doing the leg work). You may
remember a chap called "De Gaulle", who had never forgiven the UK for
winning the second world war without him.
It was the Allies who won, largely because of American and Russian
involvement. We did a fair bit early on in the Battle of Britain. But
we also got totally bogged down at Dunkirk. Later, Bomber Command was
not forgiven for decades for its bombing of Dresden in the final
throes of the war. Nothing to crow about.
I thank you for that totally irrelevant contribution.
MM
2018-11-09 11:58:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Post by Judith Smith
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by MM
By Jan Fleischhauer. See link at end.
"It’s symptomatic of Britain’s decline when a man such as Boris
Johnson is regarded as one of its clearest thinkers"
[snip rant that can be summed up in the standard Remainer slogan, "I'm
really clever and everybody who disagrees with me is stupid, so there."]
I've not been following this much.
Can you share with me what the solution to the NI problem is please?
The most obvious solution to the so-called "NI problem" would be for
Ireland to leave the EU, thus retaining and preserving its closest
relationship with the UK.
The UK might just have enough clout to be able to cut trade deals with the rest of the world, although Liam Fox's moluscine performance means it would take 45 years to replicate the ones we already have through the EU. And very probably we will be substantially worse off after Brexit.
Ireland is quite a small country, and despite the stereotypes are not so stupid as to follow the UK into economic isolation.
Post by JNugent
Though some will affect to splutter with indignation at rhe very idea,
it is best remembered that Ireland only joined (the Common Market) in
the first place because the UK did.
Really
Yes, really.
Had it applied on its own it would have been refused (just like the UK
had been in the early-mid-sixties).
"it would have been refused" sounds such a statement of fact that you
must be able to back it up with a cite or two.

MM
JNugent
2018-11-09 13:47:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MM
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Post by Judith Smith
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by MM
By Jan Fleischhauer. See link at end.
"It’s symptomatic of Britain’s decline when a man such as Boris
Johnson is regarded as one of its clearest thinkers"
[snip rant that can be summed up in the standard Remainer slogan, "I'm
really clever and everybody who disagrees with me is stupid, so there."]
I've not been following this much.
Can you share with me what the solution to the NI problem is please?
The most obvious solution to the so-called "NI problem" would be for
Ireland to leave the EU, thus retaining and preserving its closest
relationship with the UK.
The UK might just have enough clout to be able to cut trade deals with the rest of the world, although Liam Fox's moluscine performance means it would take 45 years to replicate the ones we already have through the EU. And very probably we will be substantially worse off after Brexit.
Ireland is quite a small country, and despite the stereotypes are not so stupid as to follow the UK into economic isolation.
Post by JNugent
Though some will affect to splutter with indignation at rhe very idea,
it is best remembered that Ireland only joined (the Common Market) in
the first place because the UK did.
Really
Yes, really.
Had it applied on its own it would have been refused (just like the UK
had been in the early-mid-sixties).
"it would have been refused" sounds such a statement of fact that you
must be able to back it up with a cite or two.
Read any brief history of the UK in the first half of the 1960s.

But really, and given that you a foaming-at-the-mouth EU fanatic, if you
don't already know all this, that simply shows how uninformed you are.
MM
2018-11-10 09:22:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by MM
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Post by Judith Smith
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by MM
By Jan Fleischhauer. See link at end.
"It’s symptomatic of Britain’s decline when a man such as Boris
Johnson is regarded as one of its clearest thinkers"
[snip rant that can be summed up in the standard Remainer slogan, "I'm
really clever and everybody who disagrees with me is stupid, so there."]
I've not been following this much.
Can you share with me what the solution to the NI problem is please?
The most obvious solution to the so-called "NI problem" would be for
Ireland to leave the EU, thus retaining and preserving its closest
relationship with the UK.
The UK might just have enough clout to be able to cut trade deals with the rest of the world, although Liam Fox's moluscine performance means it would take 45 years to replicate the ones we already have through the EU. And very probably we will be substantially worse off after Brexit.
Ireland is quite a small country, and despite the stereotypes are not so stupid as to follow the UK into economic isolation.
Post by JNugent
Though some will affect to splutter with indignation at rhe very idea,
it is best remembered that Ireland only joined (the Common Market) in
the first place because the UK did.
Really
Yes, really.
Had it applied on its own it would have been refused (just like the UK
had been in the early-mid-sixties).
"it would have been refused" sounds such a statement of fact that you
must be able to back it up with a cite or two.
Read any brief history of the UK in the first half of the 1960s.
But where's the cite(s) I asked for? Instead of stating any, YOU ask
ME to find some on your behalf! What a strange world of make-believe
you inhabit.
Post by JNugent
But really, and given that you a foaming-at-the-mouth EU fanatic, if you
don't already know all this, that simply shows how uninformed you are.
Okay, then. So therefore YOU must already know all this. Why are you
being coy about providing some evidence to back up your claim?

MM
JNugent
2018-11-10 17:12:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MM
Post by JNugent
Post by MM
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Post by Judith Smith
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by MM
By Jan Fleischhauer. See link at end.
"It’s symptomatic of Britain’s decline when a man such as Boris
Johnson is regarded as one of its clearest thinkers"
[snip rant that can be summed up in the standard Remainer slogan, "I'm
really clever and everybody who disagrees with me is stupid, so there."]
I've not been following this much.
Can you share with me what the solution to the NI problem is please?
The most obvious solution to the so-called "NI problem" would be for
Ireland to leave the EU, thus retaining and preserving its closest
relationship with the UK.
The UK might just have enough clout to be able to cut trade deals with the rest of the world, although Liam Fox's moluscine performance means it would take 45 years to replicate the ones we already have through the EU. And very probably we will be substantially worse off after Brexit.
Ireland is quite a small country, and despite the stereotypes are not so stupid as to follow the UK into economic isolation.
Post by JNugent
Though some will affect to splutter with indignation at rhe very idea,
it is best remembered that Ireland only joined (the Common Market) in
the first place because the UK did.
Really
Yes, really.
Had it applied on its own it would have been refused (just like the UK
had been in the early-mid-sixties).
"it would have been refused" sounds such a statement of fact that you
must be able to back it up with a cite or two.
Read any brief history of the UK in the first half of the 1960s.
But where's the cite(s) I asked for? Instead of stating any, YOU ask
ME to find some on your behalf! What a strange world of make-believe
you inhabit.
Post by JNugent
But really, and given that you a foaming-at-the-mouth EU fanatic, if you
don't already know all this, that simply shows how uninformed you are.
Okay, then. So therefore YOU must already know all this. Why are you
being coy about providing some evidence to back up your claim?
Do you want a resumé of last night's News at Ten as well?
MM
2018-11-11 10:31:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by MM
Okay, then. So therefore YOU must already know all this. Why are you
being coy about providing some evidence to back up your claim?
Do you want a resumé of last night's News at Ten as well?
If you feel that supports your argument, feel free to provide it.

MM
Norman Wells
2018-11-09 08:47:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Post by Judith Smith
Can you share with me what the solution to the NI problem is please?
The most obvious solution to the so-called "NI problem" would be for
Ireland to leave the EU, thus retaining and preserving its closest
relationship with the UK.
The UK might just have enough clout to be able to cut trade deals with the rest of the world, although Liam Fox's moluscine performance means it would take 45 years to replicate the ones we already have through the EU. And very probably we will be substantially worse off after Brexit.
Ireland is quite a small country, and despite the stereotypes are not so stupid as to follow the UK into economic isolation.
Post by JNugent
Though some will affect to splutter with indignation at rhe very idea,
it is best remembered that Ireland only joined (the Common Market) in
the first place because the UK did.
Really - I suppose the other 27 members all joined for the same reason
The basket cases, like Ireland was, certainly did.
Norman Wells
2018-11-09 08:45:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Judith Smith
Can you share with me what the solution to the NI problem is please?
The most obvious solution to the so-called "NI problem" would be for
Ireland to leave the EU, thus retaining and preserving its closest
relationship with the UK.
Though some will affect to splutter with indignation at rhe very idea,
it is best remembered that Ireland only joined (the Common Market) in
the first place because the UK did.
Wishing for a solution that won't come about because it's not under our
control and there is no demand is an exercise in pure futility.
JNugent
2018-11-09 14:46:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by JNugent
Post by Judith Smith
Can you share with me what the solution to the NI problem is please?
The most obvious solution to the so-called "NI problem" would be for
Ireland to leave the EU, thus retaining and preserving its closest
relationship with the UK.
Though some will affect to splutter with indignation at rhe very idea,
it is best remembered that Ireland only joined (the Common Market) in
the first place because the UK did.
Wishing for a solution that won't come about because it's not under our
control and there is no demand is an exercise in pure futility.
It's obvious that it won't happen (mainly because the EU has poured
money into Ireland over the last decade or so).

But that does not detract from the fact that Ireland only applied to
join, and was admitted, because of the UK's application. ANd that if
Ireland were to leave the EU, it would solve all of these "border
problems" at a stroke.
abelard
2018-11-09 17:16:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
But that does not detract from the fact that Ireland only applied to
join, and was admitted, because of the UK's application. ANd that if
Ireland were to leave the EU, it would solve all of these "border
problems" at a stroke.
the only disadvantage being that would stop the irish trying to
play both ends against the middle
--
www.abelard.org
MM
2018-11-09 11:56:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Judith Smith
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by MM
By Jan Fleischhauer. See link at end.
"It’s symptomatic of Britain’s decline when a man such as Boris
Johnson is regarded as one of its clearest thinkers"
[snip rant that can be summed up in the standard Remainer slogan, "I'm
really clever and everybody who disagrees with me is stupid, so there."]
I've not been following this much.
Can you share with me what the solution to the NI problem is please?
The most obvious solution to the so-called "NI problem" would be for
Ireland to leave the EU, thus retaining and preserving its closest
relationship with the UK.
Not going to happen. Any more bright ideas?
Post by JNugent
Though some will affect to splutter with indignation at rhe very idea,
it is best remembered that Ireland only joined (the Common Market) in
the first place because the UK did.
And now they are happy to stay in the EU. As is Scotland. As is
Northern Ireland.

MM
JNugent
2018-11-09 13:46:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MM
Post by JNugent
Post by Judith Smith
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by MM
By Jan Fleischhauer. See link at end.
"It’s symptomatic of Britain’s decline when a man such as Boris
Johnson is regarded as one of its clearest thinkers"
[snip rant that can be summed up in the standard Remainer slogan, "I'm
really clever and everybody who disagrees with me is stupid, so there."]
I've not been following this much.
Can you share with me what the solution to the NI problem is please?
The most obvious solution to the so-called "NI problem" would be for
Ireland to leave the EU, thus retaining and preserving its closest
relationship with the UK.
Not going to happen. Any more bright ideas?
Post by JNugent
Though some will affect to splutter with indignation at rhe very idea,
it is best remembered that Ireland only joined (the Common Market) in
the first place because the UK did.
And now they are happy to stay in the EU. As is Scotland. As is
Northern Ireland.
Neither Scotland nor Northern Ireland have any standing to "stay in the EU".

They are exactly the same as Rutland or Glamorgan in such matters.

Happy to help.
R. Mark Clayton
2018-11-09 14:31:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by MM
Post by JNugent
Post by Judith Smith
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by MM
By Jan Fleischhauer. See link at end.
"It’s symptomatic of Britain’s decline when a man such as Boris
Johnson is regarded as one of its clearest thinkers"
[snip rant that can be summed up in the standard Remainer slogan, "I'm
really clever and everybody who disagrees with me is stupid, so there."]
I've not been following this much.
Can you share with me what the solution to the NI problem is please?
The most obvious solution to the so-called "NI problem" would be for
Ireland to leave the EU, thus retaining and preserving its closest
relationship with the UK.
Not going to happen. Any more bright ideas?
Post by JNugent
Though some will affect to splutter with indignation at rhe very idea,
it is best remembered that Ireland only joined (the Common Market) in
the first place because the UK did.
And now they are happy to stay in the EU. As is Scotland. As is
Northern Ireland.
Neither Scotland nor Northern Ireland have any standing to "stay in the EU".
They are exactly the same as Rutland or Glamorgan in such matters.
Happy to help.
Both have devolved powers that counties (especially defunct ones) do not. Oh and both voted strongly remain.
JNugent
2018-11-09 14:34:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Post by MM
Post by JNugent
Post by Judith Smith
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by MM
By Jan Fleischhauer. See link at end.
"It’s symptomatic of Britain’s decline when a man such as Boris
Johnson is regarded as one of its clearest thinkers"
[snip rant that can be summed up in the standard Remainer slogan, "I'm
really clever and everybody who disagrees with me is stupid, so there."]
I've not been following this much.
Can you share with me what the solution to the NI problem is please?
The most obvious solution to the so-called "NI problem" would be for
Ireland to leave the EU, thus retaining and preserving its closest
relationship with the UK.
Not going to happen. Any more bright ideas?
Post by JNugent
Though some will affect to splutter with indignation at rhe very idea,
it is best remembered that Ireland only joined (the Common Market) in
the first place because the UK did.
And now they are happy to stay in the EU. As is Scotland. As is
Northern Ireland.
Neither Scotland nor Northern Ireland have any standing to "stay in the EU".
They are exactly the same as Rutland or Glamorgan in such matters.
Happy to help.
Both have devolved powers that counties (especially defunct ones) do not. Oh and both voted strongly remain.
Which bit of:

"Neither Scotland nor Northern Ireland have any standing to "stay in the
EU". They are exactly the same as Rutland or Glamorgan in such matters"...

...was too difficult for you to comprehend?
Norman Wells
2018-11-09 16:09:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Post by MM
Post by JNugent
Post by Judith Smith
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by MM
By Jan Fleischhauer. See link at end.
"It’s symptomatic of Britain’s decline when a man such as Boris
Johnson is regarded as one of its clearest thinkers"
[snip rant that can be summed up in the standard Remainer slogan, "I'm
really clever and everybody who disagrees with me is stupid, so there."]
I've not been following this much.
Can you share with me what the solution to the NI problem is please?
The most obvious solution to the so-called "NI problem" would be for
Ireland to leave the EU, thus retaining and preserving its closest
relationship with the UK.
Not going to happen. Any more bright ideas?
Post by JNugent
Though some will affect to splutter with indignation at rhe very idea,
it is best remembered that Ireland only joined (the Common Market) in
the first place because the UK did.
And now they are happy to stay in the EU. As is Scotland. As is
Northern Ireland.
Neither Scotland nor Northern Ireland have any standing to "stay in the EU".
They are exactly the same as Rutland or Glamorgan in such matters.
Happy to help.
Both have devolved powers that counties (especially defunct ones) do not. Oh and both voted strongly remain.
The Northern Irish comprise just 2.8% of the population of the UK. The
majority voting for Remain was just 91,265.

It's tiny, it's trivial. As they want to remain in the UK, they have to
follow UK decisions. Simple as that.
Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
2018-11-08 19:46:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 08 Nov 2018 15:37:44 +0000, Judith Smith
Post by Judith Smith
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by MM
By Jan Fleischhauer. See link at end.
"It’s symptomatic of Britain’s decline when a man such as Boris
Johnson is regarded as one of its clearest thinkers"
[snip rant that can be summed up in the standard Remainer slogan, "I'm
really clever and everybody who disagrees with me is stupid, so there."]
I've not been following this much.
Can you share with me what the solution to the NI problem is please?
Shoot the fucking lot of 'em. End of problem.
The Peeler
2018-11-08 20:35:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 08 Nov 2018 11:46:59 -0800, serbian bitch Razovic, the resident
psychopath of sci and scj and Usenet's famous sexual cripple, making an ass
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Shoot the fucking lot of 'em. End of problem.
It's alright, poor hysterical psycho! <pat> <pat> <pat>
--
bosodeniro to dumb anal Razovic:
"Are you a glutton for abuse or just fucking lonely?"
Message-ID: <a7ee72c3-7388-4040-bc6a-***@googlegroups.com>
R. Mark Clayton
2018-11-08 21:10:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
On Thu, 08 Nov 2018 15:37:44 +0000, Judith Smith
Post by Judith Smith
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by MM
By Jan Fleischhauer. See link at end.
"It’s symptomatic of Britain’s decline when a man such as Boris
Johnson is regarded as one of its clearest thinkers"
[snip rant that can be summed up in the standard Remainer slogan, "I'm
really clever and everybody who disagrees with me is stupid, so there."]
I've not been following this much.
Can you share with me what the solution to the NI problem is please?
Shoot the fucking lot of 'em. End of problem.
Planned previously, but fortunately, especially for you, not carried out: -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzgruppen#Plans_for_the_Middle_East_and_Britain
Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
2018-11-08 21:58:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 8 Nov 2018 13:10:09 -0800 (PST), "R. Mark Clayton"
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
On Thu, 08 Nov 2018 15:37:44 +0000, Judith Smith
Post by Judith Smith
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by MM
By Jan Fleischhauer. See link at end.
"It’s symptomatic of Britain’s decline when a man such as Boris
Johnson is regarded as one of its clearest thinkers"
[snip rant that can be summed up in the standard Remainer slogan, "I'm
really clever and everybody who disagrees with me is stupid, so there."]
I've not been following this much.
Can you share with me what the solution to the NI problem is please?
Shoot the fucking lot of 'em. End of problem.
Planned previously, but fortunately, especially for you, not carried out: -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzgruppen#Plans_for_the_Middle_East_and_Britain
Left to their own devices, they would have killed each other off. It
was only the Good Friday Appeasement that saved the province...and is
now in jeopardy!
The Peeler
2018-11-08 22:19:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 08 Nov 2018 13:58:02 -0800, serbian bitch Razovic, the resident
psychopath of sci and scj and Usenet's famous sexual cripple, making an ass
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Planned previously, but fortunately, especially for you, not carried out: -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzgruppen#Plans_for_the_Middle_East_and_Britain
Left to their own devices, they would have killed each other off. It
was only the Good Friday Appeasement that saved the province...and is
now in jeopardy!
Are you sure, Retardovic? Psychopathically sure? <BG>
--
More from dumb anal Goran Razovic's anal world:
"In excremento veritas."
MID: <***@4ax.com>
Sick old nazoid pedo Andrew "Andrzej" Baron (aka "Shitsack Moishe Goldberg")
2018-11-08 22:44:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In article <***@4ax.com>,
A shiteating cowardly nazoid sub-louse PEDO named Andrew "Andrzej"
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Left to their own devices, they would have killed each other off.
Cocksucking pedo 'tard.
Byker
2018-11-06 17:05:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MM
"The disadvantage of being intelligent is that it hurts when you act
stupid. The fool doesn’t feel this pain because they don’t have to
pretend. For a nation, the problem begins when the level of stupidity at
the top is unusually high, because the smarter people have thrown in the
towel. This is generally the point at which decline becomes inevitable."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/06/britain-foolish-decline-boris-johnson
Gotta remember that one
Byker
2018-11-06 23:38:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Almost everyone who has had a say in this adventure seems to belong to the
British establishment, meaning they went to an outrageously expensive
private school and completed their studies at Cambridge or Oxford. What in
the name of God do they teach them?
I've often wondered about that myself.

I remember reading "The Audit of War: The Illusion and Reality of Britain as
a Great Nation" (published as "The Pride and the Fall: The Dream and
Illusion of Britain as a Great Nation," in the USA), by Corelli Barnett,
when it was published in 1986:

https://www.amazon.com/Pride-Fall-Illusion-Britain-Nation/dp/002901851X

http://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-02-901851-4

This is not the book Brexiters would wish to read. It doesn't exactly cast
Britain in a good light.

If I remember right, the book's last sentence says Britain has "turned
to the dank reality of a segregated, subliterate, unskilled, unhealthy and
institutionalized proletariat hanging on the nipple of state maternalism."

Contemporary review: http://tinyurl.com/csln3dm

Have things improved in the last 30 years?

BTW, you should also check out Barnett's "The Collapse of British Power"
(1972). The first volume of Pride and Fall explains the decay of British
power between 1918 and 1940 and its final collapse between 1940 and 1945.
Some have sought to explain this ineptitude, particularly between the two
world wars, by citing the tremendous costs of the First World War. Not so,
says Corelli Barnett, who ruthlessly identifies the root causes which
reduced Britain eventually to a satellite of the USA.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/849439.The_Collapse_of_British_Power
Pamela
2018-11-06 23:54:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Byker
If I remember right, the book's last sentence says Britain has "turned
to the dank reality of a segregated, subliterate, unskilled, unhealthy
and institutionalized proletariat hanging on the nipple of state
maternalism."
Gulp!
MM
2018-11-07 10:29:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Byker
Almost everyone who has had a say in this adventure seems to belong to the
British establishment, meaning they went to an outrageously expensive
private school and completed their studies at Cambridge or Oxford. What in
the name of God do they teach them?
I've often wondered about that myself.
I remember reading "The Audit of War: The Illusion and Reality of Britain as
a Great Nation" (published as "The Pride and the Fall: The Dream and
Illusion of Britain as a Great Nation," in the USA), by Corelli Barnett,
https://www.amazon.com/Pride-Fall-Illusion-Britain-Nation/dp/002901851X
http://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-02-901851-4
This is not the book Brexiters would wish to read. It doesn't exactly cast
Britain in a good light.
If I remember right, the book's last sentence says Britain has "turned
to the dank reality of a segregated, subliterate, unskilled, unhealthy and
institutionalized proletariat hanging on the nipple of state maternalism."
Contemporary review: http://tinyurl.com/csln3dm
Have things improved in the last 30 years?
BTW, you should also check out Barnett's "The Collapse of British Power"
(1972). The first volume of Pride and Fall explains the decay of British
power between 1918 and 1940 and its final collapse between 1940 and 1945.
Some have sought to explain this ineptitude, particularly between the two
world wars, by citing the tremendous costs of the First World War. Not so,
says Corelli Barnett, who ruthlessly identifies the root causes which
reduced Britain eventually to a satellite of the USA.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/849439.The_Collapse_of_British_Power
I've read several of his books and believe his arguments totally.
Britain has done nothing over the past 150 years except decline.
Germany OTOH had two world wars and is now the largest economy in
Europe.

The Germans must be doing something right in recognising their
mistakes and setting out to correct them.

We must be doing something wrong by never accepting we make mistakes.

MM
Ian Jackson
2018-11-07 10:39:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MM
Post by Byker
Almost everyone who has had a say in this adventure seems to belong to the
British establishment, meaning they went to an outrageously expensive
private school and completed their studies at Cambridge or Oxford. What in
the name of God do they teach them?
I've often wondered about that myself.
I remember reading "The Audit of War: The Illusion and Reality of Britain as
a Great Nation" (published as "The Pride and the Fall: The Dream and
Illusion of Britain as a Great Nation," in the USA), by Corelli Barnett,
https://www.amazon.com/Pride-Fall-Illusion-Britain-Nation/dp/002901851X
http://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-02-901851-4
This is not the book Brexiters would wish to read. It doesn't exactly cast
Britain in a good light.
If I remember right, the book's last sentence says Britain has "turned
to the dank reality of a segregated, subliterate, unskilled, unhealthy and
institutionalized proletariat hanging on the nipple of state maternalism."
Contemporary review: http://tinyurl.com/csln3dm
Have things improved in the last 30 years?
BTW, you should also check out Barnett's "The Collapse of British Power"
(1972). The first volume of Pride and Fall explains the decay of British
power between 1918 and 1940 and its final collapse between 1940 and 1945.
Some have sought to explain this ineptitude, particularly between the two
world wars, by citing the tremendous costs of the First World War. Not so,
says Corelli Barnett, who ruthlessly identifies the root causes which
reduced Britain eventually to a satellite of the USA.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/849439.The_Collapse_of_British_Power
I've read several of his books and believe his arguments totally.
Britain has done nothing over the past 150 years except decline.
Germany OTOH had two world wars and is now the largest economy in
Europe.
The Germans must be doing something right in recognising their
mistakes and setting out to correct them.
We must be doing something wrong by never accepting we make mistakes.
Getting things obviously wrong (especially losing two world wars) is
usually a great incentive to examine your mistakes, and then revise your
policies. Getting things apparently right often encourages you to rest
on your laurels, and rely on the status quo.
--
Ian
R. Mark Clayton
2018-11-07 12:19:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by MM
Post by Byker
Almost everyone who has had a say in this adventure seems to belong to the
British establishment, meaning they went to an outrageously expensive
private school and completed their studies at Cambridge or Oxford. What in
the name of God do they teach them?
I've often wondered about that myself.
I remember reading "The Audit of War: The Illusion and Reality of Britain as
a Great Nation" (published as "The Pride and the Fall: The Dream and
Illusion of Britain as a Great Nation," in the USA), by Corelli Barnett,
https://www.amazon.com/Pride-Fall-Illusion-Britain-Nation/dp/002901851X
http://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-02-901851-4
This is not the book Brexiters would wish to read. It doesn't exactly cast
Britain in a good light.
If I remember right, the book's last sentence says Britain has "turned
to the dank reality of a segregated, subliterate, unskilled, unhealthy and
institutionalized proletariat hanging on the nipple of state maternalism."
Contemporary review: http://tinyurl.com/csln3dm
Have things improved in the last 30 years?
BTW, you should also check out Barnett's "The Collapse of British Power"
(1972). The first volume of Pride and Fall explains the decay of British
power between 1918 and 1940 and its final collapse between 1940 and 1945.
Some have sought to explain this ineptitude, particularly between the two
world wars, by citing the tremendous costs of the First World War. Not so,
says Corelli Barnett, who ruthlessly identifies the root causes which
reduced Britain eventually to a satellite of the USA.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/849439.The_Collapse_of_British_Power
I've read several of his books and believe his arguments totally.
Britain has done nothing over the past 150 years except decline.
Germany OTOH had two world wars and is now the largest economy in
Europe.
The Germans must be doing something right in recognising their
mistakes and setting out to correct them.
We must be doing something wrong by never accepting we make mistakes.
Getting things obviously wrong (especially losing two world wars) is
usually a great incentive to examine your mistakes, and then revise your
policies. Getting things apparently right often encourages you to rest
on your laurels, and rely on the status quo.
--
Ian
The UK lost 383k military killed with a similar number wounded and 67,200 civilian casualties (including merchant navy). Germany around seven million killed and seven million wounded plus the country was ruined and occupied.

I think we were better off on the winning side somehow...
BurfordTJustice
2018-11-07 12:21:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
"R. Mark Clayton" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:971fda7b-b2c6-4f71-8acb-***@googlegroups.com...
: On Wednesday, 7 November 2018 10:39:34 UTC, Ian Jackson wrote:
: > In message <***@4ax.com>, MM
: > <***@yahoo.co.uk> writes
: > >On Tue, 6 Nov 2018 17:38:48 -0600, "Byker" <***@do~rag.net> wrote:
: > >
: > >>On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 11:37:28 AM UTC, MM wrote:
: > >>>
: > >>> Almost everyone who has had a say in this adventure seems to belong
to the
: > >>> British establishment, meaning they went to an outrageously
expensive
: > >>> private school and completed their studies at Cambridge or Oxford.
What in
: > >>> the name of God do they teach them?
: > >>
: > >>I've often wondered about that myself.
: > >>
: > >>I remember reading "The Audit of War: The Illusion and Reality of
Britain as
: > >>a Great Nation" (published as "The Pride and the Fall: The Dream and
: > >>Illusion of Britain as a Great Nation," in the USA), by Corelli
Barnett,
: > >>when it was published in 1986:
: > >>
: >
Post by Byker
https://www.amazon.com/Pride-Fall-Illusion-Britain-Nation/dp/002901851X
: > >>
: > >>http://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-02-901851-4
: > >>
: > >>This is not the book Brexiters would wish to read. It doesn't exactly
cast
: > >>Britain in a good light.
: > >>
: > >>If I remember right, the book's last sentence says Britain has "turned
: > >>to the dank reality of a segregated, subliterate, unskilled, unhealthy
and
: > >>institutionalized proletariat hanging on the nipple of state
maternalism."
: > >>
: > >>Contemporary review: http://tinyurl.com/csln3dm
: > >>
: > >>Have things improved in the last 30 years?
: > >>
: > >>BTW, you should also check out Barnett's "The Collapse of British
Power"
: > >>(1972). The first volume of Pride and Fall explains the decay of
British
: > >>power between 1918 and 1940 and its final collapse between 1940 and
1945.
: > >>Some have sought to explain this ineptitude, particularly between the
two
: > >>world wars, by citing the tremendous costs of the First World War. Not
so,
: > >>says Corelli Barnett, who ruthlessly identifies the root causes which
: > >>reduced Britain eventually to a satellite of the USA.
: >
Post by Byker
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/849439.The_Collapse_of_British_Power
: > >
: > >I've read several of his books and believe his arguments totally.
: > >Britain has done nothing over the past 150 years except decline.
: > >Germany OTOH had two world wars and is now the largest economy in
: > >Europe.
: > >
: > >The Germans must be doing something right in recognising their
: > >mistakes and setting out to correct them.
: > >
: > >We must be doing something wrong by never accepting we make mistakes.
: > >
: > Getting things obviously wrong (especially losing two world wars) is
: > usually a great incentive to examine your mistakes, and then revise your
: > policies. Getting things apparently right often encourages you to rest
: > on your laurels, and rely on the status quo.
: > --
: > Ian
:
: The UK lost 383k military killed with a similar number wounded and 67,200
civilian casualties (including merchant navy). Germany around seven million
killed and seven million wounded plus the country was ruined and occupied.
:
: I think we were better off on the winning side somehow...
The Todal
2018-11-07 13:29:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by MM
Post by Byker
Almost everyone who has had a say in this adventure seems to belong to the
British establishment, meaning they went to an outrageously expensive
private school and completed their studies at Cambridge or Oxford. What in
the name of God do they teach them?
I've often wondered about that myself.
I remember reading "The Audit of War: The Illusion and Reality of Britain as
a Great Nation" (published as "The Pride and the Fall: The Dream and
Illusion of Britain as a Great Nation," in the USA), by Corelli Barnett,
https://www.amazon.com/Pride-Fall-Illusion-Britain-Nation/dp/002901851X
http://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-02-901851-4
This is not the book Brexiters would wish to read. It doesn't exactly cast
Britain in a good light.
If I remember right, the book's last sentence says Britain has "turned
to the dank reality of a segregated, subliterate, unskilled, unhealthy and
institutionalized proletariat hanging on the nipple of state maternalism."
Contemporary review: http://tinyurl.com/csln3dm
Have things improved in the last 30 years?
BTW, you should also check out Barnett's "The Collapse of British Power"
(1972). The first volume of Pride and Fall explains the decay of British
power between 1918 and 1940 and its final collapse between 1940 and 1945.
Some have sought to explain this ineptitude, particularly between the two
world wars, by citing the tremendous costs of the First World War. Not so,
says Corelli Barnett, who ruthlessly identifies the root causes which
reduced Britain eventually to a satellite of the USA.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/849439.The_Collapse_of_British_Power
I've read several of his books and believe his arguments totally.
Britain has done nothing over the past 150 years except decline.
Germany OTOH had two world wars and is now the largest economy in
Europe.
The Germans must be doing something right in recognising their
mistakes and setting out to correct them.
We must be doing something wrong by never accepting we make mistakes.
Getting things obviously wrong (especially losing two world wars) is
usually a great incentive to examine your mistakes, and then revise your
policies. Getting things apparently right often encourages you to rest
on your laurels, and rely on the status quo.
--
Ian
The UK lost 383k military killed with a similar number wounded and 67,200 civilian casualties (including merchant navy). Germany around seven million killed and seven million wounded plus the country was ruined and occupied.
I think we were better off on the winning side somehow...
But it wasn't Britain versus Germany, no matter what the football fans
proudly believe.

The casualty figures probably reflect the relatively small contribution
made by Britain to the eventual Allied victory. Russian losses were
huge, and the war couldn't have been won without Russia's extreme
courage and perseverance.
R. Mark Clayton
2018-11-07 16:29:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by MM
Post by Byker
Almost everyone who has had a say in this adventure seems to belong to the
British establishment, meaning they went to an outrageously expensive
private school and completed their studies at Cambridge or Oxford. What in
the name of God do they teach them?
I've often wondered about that myself.
I remember reading "The Audit of War: The Illusion and Reality of Britain as
a Great Nation" (published as "The Pride and the Fall: The Dream and
Illusion of Britain as a Great Nation," in the USA), by Corelli Barnett,
https://www.amazon.com/Pride-Fall-Illusion-Britain-Nation/dp/002901851X
http://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-02-901851-4
This is not the book Brexiters would wish to read. It doesn't exactly cast
Britain in a good light.
If I remember right, the book's last sentence says Britain has "turned
to the dank reality of a segregated, subliterate, unskilled, unhealthy and
institutionalized proletariat hanging on the nipple of state maternalism."
Contemporary review: http://tinyurl.com/csln3dm
Have things improved in the last 30 years?
BTW, you should also check out Barnett's "The Collapse of British Power"
(1972). The first volume of Pride and Fall explains the decay of British
power between 1918 and 1940 and its final collapse between 1940 and 1945.
Some have sought to explain this ineptitude, particularly between the two
world wars, by citing the tremendous costs of the First World War. Not so,
says Corelli Barnett, who ruthlessly identifies the root causes which
reduced Britain eventually to a satellite of the USA.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/849439.The_Collapse_of_British_Power
I've read several of his books and believe his arguments totally.
Britain has done nothing over the past 150 years except decline.
Germany OTOH had two world wars and is now the largest economy in
Europe.
The Germans must be doing something right in recognising their
mistakes and setting out to correct them.
We must be doing something wrong by never accepting we make mistakes.
Getting things obviously wrong (especially losing two world wars) is
usually a great incentive to examine your mistakes, and then revise your
policies. Getting things apparently right often encourages you to rest
on your laurels, and rely on the status quo.
--
Ian
The UK lost 383k military killed with a similar number wounded and 67,200 civilian casualties (including merchant navy). Germany around seven million killed and seven million wounded plus the country was ruined and occupied.
I think we were better off on the winning side somehow...
But it wasn't Britain versus Germany, no matter what the football fans
proudly believe.
The casualty figures probably reflect the relatively small contribution
made by Britain to the eventual Allied victory. Russian losses were
huge, and the war couldn't have been won without Russia's extreme
courage and perseverance.
and participation

Agree.
Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
2018-11-07 18:02:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 13:29:44 +0000, Jon The Todal, a notorious semite
Post by The Todal
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by MM
Post by Byker
Almost everyone who has had a say in this adventure seems to belong to the
British establishment, meaning they went to an outrageously expensive
private school and completed their studies at Cambridge or Oxford. What in
the name of God do they teach them?
I've often wondered about that myself.
I remember reading "The Audit of War: The Illusion and Reality of Britain as
a Great Nation" (published as "The Pride and the Fall: The Dream and
Illusion of Britain as a Great Nation," in the USA), by Corelli Barnett,
https://www.amazon.com/Pride-Fall-Illusion-Britain-Nation/dp/002901851X
http://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-02-901851-4
This is not the book Brexiters would wish to read. It doesn't exactly cast
Britain in a good light.
If I remember right, the book's last sentence says Britain has "turned
to the dank reality of a segregated, subliterate, unskilled, unhealthy and
institutionalized proletariat hanging on the nipple of state maternalism."
Contemporary review: http://tinyurl.com/csln3dm
Have things improved in the last 30 years?
BTW, you should also check out Barnett's "The Collapse of British Power"
(1972). The first volume of Pride and Fall explains the decay of British
power between 1918 and 1940 and its final collapse between 1940 and 1945.
Some have sought to explain this ineptitude, particularly between the two
world wars, by citing the tremendous costs of the First World War. Not so,
says Corelli Barnett, who ruthlessly identifies the root causes which
reduced Britain eventually to a satellite of the USA.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/849439.The_Collapse_of_British_Power
I've read several of his books and believe his arguments totally.
Britain has done nothing over the past 150 years except decline.
Germany OTOH had two world wars and is now the largest economy in
Europe.
The Germans must be doing something right in recognising their
mistakes and setting out to correct them.
We must be doing something wrong by never accepting we make mistakes.
Getting things obviously wrong (especially losing two world wars) is
usually a great incentive to examine your mistakes, and then revise your
policies. Getting things apparently right often encourages you to rest
on your laurels, and rely on the status quo.
--
Ian
The UK lost 383k military killed with a similar number wounded and 67,200 civilian casualties (including merchant navy). Germany around seven million killed and seven million wounded plus the country was ruined and occupied.
I think we were better off on the winning side somehow...
But it wasn't Britain versus Germany, no matter what the football fans
proudly believe.
The casualty figures probably reflect the relatively small contribution
made by Britain to the eventual Allied victory. Russian losses were
huge, and the war couldn't have been won without Russia's extreme
courage and perseverance.
The weather's extreme perseverance made a far greater contribution
than the Russians did.
The Peeler
2018-11-07 19:35:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 07 Nov 2018 10:02:13 -0800, serbian bitch Razovic, the resident
psychopath of sci and scj and Usenet's famous sexual cripple, making an ass
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Post by The Todal
But it wasn't Britain versus Germany, no matter what the football fans
proudly believe.
The casualty figures probably reflect the relatively small contribution
made by Britain to the eventual Allied victory. Russian losses were
huge, and the war couldn't have been won without Russia's extreme
courage and perseverance.
The weather's extreme perseverance made a far greater contribution
than the Russians did.
The nazis' (especially psychopathic Hitler's) STUPIDITY made, by far, the
greatest contribution, psychopathic Retardovic!
--
Retarded, anal, subnormal and extremely proud of it: our resident
psychopath, dumb serbian bitch G. Razovic (aka "The Rectum").
R. Mark Clayton
2018-11-08 13:12:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 13:29:44 +0000, Jon The Todal, a notorious semite
SNIP
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Post by The Todal
Post by R. Mark Clayton
I think we were better off on the winning side somehow...
But it wasn't Britain versus Germany, no matter what the football fans
proudly believe.
The casualty figures probably reflect the relatively small contribution
made by Britain to the eventual Allied victory. Russian losses were
huge, and the war couldn't have been won without Russia's extreme
courage and perseverance.
The weather's extreme perseverance made a far greater contribution
than the Russians did.
The weather was the same for both sides. Google up General Georgy Zhukov.
Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
2018-11-08 19:47:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 8 Nov 2018 05:12:33 -0800 (PST), "R. Mark Clayton"
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 13:29:44 +0000, Jon The Todal, a notorious semite
SNIP
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Post by The Todal
Post by R. Mark Clayton
I think we were better off on the winning side somehow...
But it wasn't Britain versus Germany, no matter what the football fans
proudly believe.
The casualty figures probably reflect the relatively small contribution
made by Britain to the eventual Allied victory. Russian losses were
huge, and the war couldn't have been won without Russia's extreme
courage and perseverance.
The weather's extreme perseverance made a far greater contribution
than the Russians did.
The weather was the same for both sides. Google up General Georgy Zhukov.
The Russians could deal with it and were prepared for it. The Germans
couldn't and weren't. It stopped their advance dead.
The Peeler
2018-11-08 20:37:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 08 Nov 2018 11:47:25 -0800, serbian bitch Razovic, the resident
psychopath of sci and scj and Usenet's famous sexual cripple, making an ass
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Post by R. Mark Clayton
The weather was the same for both sides. Google up General Georgy Zhukov.
The Russians could deal with it and were prepared for it. The Germans
couldn't and weren't. It stopped their advance dead.
Goes to show, again, that the nazis' STUPIDITY brought about their downfall!
--
More from dumb anal Goran Razovic's anal world:
"In excremento veritas."
MID: <***@4ax.com>
Pamela
2018-11-09 22:51:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
On Thu, 8 Nov 2018 05:12:33 -0800 (PST), "R. Mark Clayton"
On Wednesday, 7 November 2018 18:02:23 UTC, Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 13:29:44 +0000, Jon The Todal, a notorious semite
SNIP
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Post by The Todal
Post by R. Mark Clayton
I think we were better off on the winning side somehow...
But it wasn't Britain versus Germany, no matter what the football
fans proudly believe.
The casualty figures probably reflect the relatively small
contribution made by Britain to the eventual Allied victory.
Russian losses were huge, and the war couldn't have been won
without Russia's extreme courage and perseverance.
The weather's extreme perseverance made a far greater contribution
than the Russians did.
The weather was the same for both sides. Google up General Georgy Zhukov.
The Russians could deal with it and were prepared for it. The Germans
couldn't and weren't. It stopped their advance dead.
Are you thinking of Kursk and Leningrad?

Both also required Russian fortitude.
Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
2018-11-10 13:45:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
On Thu, 8 Nov 2018 05:12:33 -0800 (PST), "R. Mark Clayton"
On Wednesday, 7 November 2018 18:02:23 UTC, Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 13:29:44 +0000, Jon The Todal, a notorious semite
SNIP
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Post by The Todal
Post by R. Mark Clayton
I think we were better off on the winning side somehow...
But it wasn't Britain versus Germany, no matter what the football
fans proudly believe.
The casualty figures probably reflect the relatively small
contribution made by Britain to the eventual Allied victory.
Russian losses were huge, and the war couldn't have been won
without Russia's extreme courage and perseverance.
The weather's extreme perseverance made a far greater contribution
than the Russians did.
The weather was the same for both sides. Google up General Georgy Zhukov.
The Russians could deal with it and were prepared for it. The Germans
couldn't and weren't. It stopped their advance dead.
Are you thinking of Kursk and Leningrad?
Both also required Russian fortitude.
I'm thinking of the Eastern Front offensive in general. The weather
had more to do with the German failure to advance than anything else.

Russian fortitude amounted to little more than throwing more and more
soldiers at the Germans and having more casualties than any other army
in the conflict as a result.
Pamela
2018-11-10 15:00:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Post by Pamela
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
On Thu, 8 Nov 2018 05:12:33 -0800 (PST), "R. Mark Clayton"
On Wednesday, 7 November 2018 18:02:23 UTC, Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 13:29:44 +0000, Jon The Todal, a notorious
SNIP
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Post by The Todal
Post by R. Mark Clayton
I think we were better off on the winning side somehow...
But it wasn't Britain versus Germany, no matter what the football
fans proudly believe.
The casualty figures probably reflect the relatively small
contribution made by Britain to the eventual Allied victory.
Russian losses were huge, and the war couldn't have been won
without Russia's extreme courage and perseverance.
The weather's extreme perseverance made a far greater contribution
than the Russians did.
The weather was the same for both sides. Google up General Georgy Zhukov.
The Russians could deal with it and were prepared for it. The
Germans couldn't and weren't. It stopped their advance dead.
Are you thinking of Kursk and Leningrad?
Both also required Russian fortitude.
I'm thinking of the Eastern Front offensive in general. The weather
had more to do with the German failure to advance than anything else.
Russian fortitude amounted to little more than throwing more and more
soldiers at the Germans and having more casualties than any other army
in the conflict as a result.
Very true about Russian "fortitude".
The Todal
2018-11-11 15:18:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Post by Pamela
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
On Thu, 8 Nov 2018 05:12:33 -0800 (PST), "R. Mark Clayton"
On Wednesday, 7 November 2018 18:02:23 UTC, Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 13:29:44 +0000, Jon The Todal, a notorious
SNIP
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Post by The Todal
Post by R. Mark Clayton
I think we were better off on the winning side somehow...
But it wasn't Britain versus Germany, no matter what the football
fans proudly believe.
The casualty figures probably reflect the relatively small
contribution made by Britain to the eventual Allied victory.
Russian losses were huge, and the war couldn't have been won
without Russia's extreme courage and perseverance.
The weather's extreme perseverance made a far greater contribution
than the Russians did.
The weather was the same for both sides. Google up General Georgy Zhukov.
The Russians could deal with it and were prepared for it. The
Germans couldn't and weren't. It stopped their advance dead.
Are you thinking of Kursk and Leningrad?
Both also required Russian fortitude.
I'm thinking of the Eastern Front offensive in general. The weather
had more to do with the German failure to advance than anything else.
Russian fortitude amounted to little more than throwing more and more
soldiers at the Germans and having more casualties than any other army
in the conflict as a result.
Very true about Russian "fortitude".
Throwing more and more soldiers at the opposing troops is actually how
it usually works.

We like to imagine that our own soldiers are more skilled at their craft
than the enemy soldiers, and that a dozen of ours are worth a hundred of
theirs. It doesn't usually pan out like that. Life is cheap for the
troops on both sides.

We buy poppies to commemmorate our human sacrifices. Our dead soldiers
didn't give their lives for our freedom. Their lives were cruelly taken
from them to enable generals to claim illusory victories, eventually
ending in a negotiated armistice.
Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
2018-11-11 18:26:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 15:18:33 +0000, Jon The Todal, a notorious semite
Post by The Todal
Post by Pamela
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Post by Pamela
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
On Thu, 8 Nov 2018 05:12:33 -0800 (PST), "R. Mark Clayton"
On Wednesday, 7 November 2018 18:02:23 UTC, Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 13:29:44 +0000, Jon The Todal, a notorious
SNIP
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Post by The Todal
Post by R. Mark Clayton
I think we were better off on the winning side somehow...
But it wasn't Britain versus Germany, no matter what the football
fans proudly believe.
The casualty figures probably reflect the relatively small
contribution made by Britain to the eventual Allied victory.
Russian losses were huge, and the war couldn't have been won
without Russia's extreme courage and perseverance.
The weather's extreme perseverance made a far greater contribution
than the Russians did.
The weather was the same for both sides. Google up General Georgy Zhukov.
The Russians could deal with it and were prepared for it. The
Germans couldn't and weren't. It stopped their advance dead.
Are you thinking of Kursk and Leningrad?
Both also required Russian fortitude.
I'm thinking of the Eastern Front offensive in general. The weather
had more to do with the German failure to advance than anything else.
Russian fortitude amounted to little more than throwing more and more
soldiers at the Germans and having more casualties than any other army
in the conflict as a result.
Very true about Russian "fortitude".
Throwing more and more soldiers at the opposing troops is actually how
it usually works.
We like to imagine that our own soldiers are more skilled at their craft
than the enemy soldiers, and that a dozen of ours are worth a hundred of
theirs. It doesn't usually pan out like that. Life is cheap for the
troops on both sides.
We buy poppies to commemmorate our human sacrifices. Our dead soldiers
didn't give their lives for our freedom. Their lives were cruelly taken
from them to enable generals to claim illusory victories, eventually
ending in a negotiated armistice.
YOUR dead soldiers? How many jews exactly were killed in the fields
of Flanders? Is there a SINGLE jew star of david in ANY of the
military cemeteries in Yurp???
The Peeler
2018-11-11 20:20:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 10:26:47 -0800, serbian bitch Razovic, the resident
psychopath of sci and scj and Usenet's famous sexual cripple, making an ass
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Post by The Todal
Throwing more and more soldiers at the opposing troops is actually how
it usually works.
We like to imagine that our own soldiers are more skilled at their craft
than the enemy soldiers, and that a dozen of ours are worth a hundred of
theirs. It doesn't usually pan out like that. Life is cheap for the
troops on both sides.
We buy poppies to commemmorate our human sacrifices. Our dead soldiers
didn't give their lives for our freedom. Their lives were cruelly taken
from them to enable generals to claim illusory victories, eventually
ending in a negotiated armistice.
YOUR dead soldiers? How many jews exactly were killed in the fields
of Flanders? Is there a SINGLE jew star of david in ANY of the
military cemeteries in Yurp???
Of course there are! You were provided with enough proofs repeatedly
already, you psychotic idiot!
--
Tony about psychopath Razovic:
"You have really made a complete fool out your self but you are too dumb to
notice."
MID: <951ce6b3-9c49-4426-ba53-***@googlegroups.com>
The Peeler
2018-11-10 17:58:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 05:45:53 -0800, serbian bitch Razovic, the resident
psychopath of sci and scj and Usenet's famous sexual cripple, making an ass
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
I'm thinking of the Eastern Front offensive in general. The weather
had more to do with the German failure to advance than anything else.
It all had to do with the nazis' STUPIDITY than anything else. Especially
with your idol Hitler's stupidity who refused to listen to the generals who
shook their heads at his absolutely idiotic decisions!
MM
2018-11-08 10:02:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
The casualty figures probably reflect the relatively small contribution
made by Britain to the eventual Allied victory. Russian losses were
huge, and the war couldn't have been won without Russia's extreme
courage and perseverance.
And huge quanitites of American matériel and troops.

MM
MM
2018-11-08 10:00:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 04:19:50 -0800 (PST), "R. Mark Clayton"
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by MM
Post by Byker
Almost everyone who has had a say in this adventure seems to belong to the
British establishment, meaning they went to an outrageously expensive
private school and completed their studies at Cambridge or Oxford. What in
the name of God do they teach them?
I've often wondered about that myself.
I remember reading "The Audit of War: The Illusion and Reality of Britain as
a Great Nation" (published as "The Pride and the Fall: The Dream and
Illusion of Britain as a Great Nation," in the USA), by Corelli Barnett,
https://www.amazon.com/Pride-Fall-Illusion-Britain-Nation/dp/002901851X
http://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-02-901851-4
This is not the book Brexiters would wish to read. It doesn't exactly cast
Britain in a good light.
If I remember right, the book's last sentence says Britain has "turned
to the dank reality of a segregated, subliterate, unskilled, unhealthy and
institutionalized proletariat hanging on the nipple of state maternalism."
Contemporary review: http://tinyurl.com/csln3dm
Have things improved in the last 30 years?
BTW, you should also check out Barnett's "The Collapse of British Power"
(1972). The first volume of Pride and Fall explains the decay of British
power between 1918 and 1940 and its final collapse between 1940 and 1945.
Some have sought to explain this ineptitude, particularly between the two
world wars, by citing the tremendous costs of the First World War. Not so,
says Corelli Barnett, who ruthlessly identifies the root causes which
reduced Britain eventually to a satellite of the USA.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/849439.The_Collapse_of_British_Power
I've read several of his books and believe his arguments totally.
Britain has done nothing over the past 150 years except decline.
Germany OTOH had two world wars and is now the largest economy in
Europe.
The Germans must be doing something right in recognising their
mistakes and setting out to correct them.
We must be doing something wrong by never accepting we make mistakes.
Getting things obviously wrong (especially losing two world wars) is
usually a great incentive to examine your mistakes, and then revise your
policies. Getting things apparently right often encourages you to rest
on your laurels, and rely on the status quo.
--
Ian
The UK lost 383k military killed with a similar number wounded and 67,200 civilian casualties (including merchant navy). Germany around seven million killed and seven million wounded plus the country was ruined and occupied.
I think we were better off on the winning side somehow...
That was then. But now we just continue our decline, while Germany
thrives. So much for resting on our laurels! We do far too much of
that, because we're basically a very lazy nation.

MM
MM
2018-11-08 09:59:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 10:39:25 +0000, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Getting things obviously wrong (especially losing two world wars) is
usually a great incentive to examine your mistakes, and then revise your
policies. Getting things apparently right often encourages you to rest
on your laurels, and rely on the status quo.
Which is what we're really good at.

MM
BurfordTJustice
2018-11-07 11:21:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
"Byker" <***@do~rag.net> wrote in message news:TO-dnZRXjLCau3_GnZ2dnUU7-***@supernews.com...
: On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 11:37:28 AM UTC, MM wrote:
: >
: > Almost everyone who has had a say in this adventure seems to belong to
the
: > British establishment, meaning they went to an outrageously expensive
: > private school and completed their studies at Cambridge or Oxford. What
in
: > the name of God do they teach them?
:
: I've often wondered about that myself.
:
: I remember reading "The Audit of War: The Illusion and Reality of Britain
as
: a Great Nation" (published as "The Pride and the Fall: The Dream and
: Illusion of Britain as a Great Nation," in the USA), by Corelli Barnett,
: when it was published in 1986:
:
: https://www.amazon.com/Pride-Fall-Illusion-Britain-Nation/dp/002901851X
:
: http://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-02-901851-4
:
: This is not the book Brexiters would wish to read. It doesn't exactly cast
: Britain in a good light.
:
: If I remember right, the book's last sentence says Britain has "turned
: to the dank reality of a segregated, subliterate, unskilled, unhealthy and
: institutionalized proletariat hanging on the nipple of state maternalism."
:
: Contemporary review: http://tinyurl.com/csln3dm
:
: Have things improved in the last 30 years?
:
: BTW, you should also check out Barnett's "The Collapse of British Power"
: (1972). The first volume of Pride and Fall explains the decay of British
: power between 1918 and 1940 and its final collapse between 1940 and 1945.
: Some have sought to explain this ineptitude, particularly between the two
: world wars, by citing the tremendous costs of the First World War. Not so,
: says Corelli Barnett, who ruthlessly identifies the root causes which
: reduced Britain eventually to a satellite of the USA.
: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/849439.The_Collapse_of_British_Power
:
Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
2018-11-07 18:02:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Byker
Almost everyone who has had a say in this adventure seems to belong to the
British establishment, meaning they went to an outrageously expensive
private school and completed their studies at Cambridge or Oxford. What in
the name of God do they teach them?
I've often wondered about that myself.
I remember reading "The Audit of War: The Illusion and Reality of Britain as
a Great Nation" (published as "The Pride and the Fall: The Dream and
Illusion of Britain as a Great Nation," in the USA), by Corelli Barnett,
https://www.amazon.com/Pride-Fall-Illusion-Britain-Nation/dp/002901851X
http://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-02-901851-4
This is not the book Brexiters would wish to read. It doesn't exactly cast
Britain in a good light.
If I remember right, the book's last sentence says Britain has "turned
to the dank reality of a segregated, subliterate, unskilled, unhealthy and
institutionalized proletariat hanging on the nipple of state maternalism."
You almost make that sound like a Bad Thing™, Kyker. This is how it
was before Thatcher. And it will revert to the same.
The Peeler
2018-11-07 19:37:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 07 Nov 2018 10:02:41 -0800, serbian bitch Razovic, the resident
psychopath of sci and scj and Usenet's famous sexual cripple, making an ass
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Post by Byker
If I remember right, the book's last sentence says Britain has "turned
to the dank reality of a segregated, subliterate, unskilled, unhealthy and
institutionalized proletariat hanging on the nipple of state maternalism."
You almost make that sound like a Bad Thing™, Kyker. This is how it
was before Thatcher. And it will revert to the same.
Hey, Retardovic, did you notice that "subliterate", "unskilled" and
"unhealthy" describes YOU to a T? LOL
--
Retarded, anal, subnormal and extremely proud of it: our resident
psychopath, dumb serbian bitch G. Razovic (aka "The Rectum").
The Todal
2018-11-07 13:33:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MM
By Jan Fleischhauer. See link at end.
"It’s symptomatic of Britain’s decline when a man such as Boris
Johnson is regarded as one of its clearest thinkers"
"I have always admired the British. We owe them afternoon tea, Monty
Python and the Beatles. This is more than many nations have achieved
in their history. I was also one of the few columnists in Germany who
found it ridiculous to be angry at our British neighbours after they
decided to leave the European club they had once helped to make great.
I felt sorry whenever I saw the British prime minister stumble through
a European summit, with her crooked smile and her even more crooked
offers. Right now, though, I’m feeling less sympathetic. In fact, I
have been catching myself thinking: 'Go with God. But go!' Maybe this
week could be the week things become clear. But who would bet on it?
"The UK is making a spectacular demonstration of how to make a fool of
yourself with the entire world looking on. What was once the most
powerful empire on Earth can’t even find its way to the door without
tripping over its own feet. When Theresa May arrives in Brussels with
yet another proposal, you can be sure it won’t be worth the paper it’s
written 24 hours later. She either presents ideas that Brussels has
long ago rejected, her plans have been rejected by her own party, or
Boris Johnson tears them to pieces in his newspaper column.
"No deal is better than a bad deal? If you are convinced of this: go
ahead. A hard Brexit will cost the rest of us a lot -- there’s no
question about that -- but it is nothing compared to what is awaiting
you Britons.
"First the trucks will be jammed all the way to Wales, because the
borders are back. Then the fuel will run out at filling stations and
medicines will run out in pharmacies. And once all the Polish plumbers
have gone home, there will be nobody to call when the toilet gets
blocked.
"So there you are: left in your water-damaged homes, without fuel and
aspirins, but with extremely bad-tempered Russians as neighbours. And
they will realise they have invested far too much money in the English
real estate market and will be incensed because their investments are
going down the drain.
"When I mocked the Brexit chaos in Der Spiegel recently, I received a
lot of mail saying that this wasn’t fair. One line of attack was that
only the English had voted to leave the European Union, so it was not
a British decision. Second, the government in London wouldn’t speak up
for right-thinking people who want to stay close to the EU.
"I can only say: sorry, folks, but it doesn’t work to declare the
government a kind of foreign power, whose rise can’t really be
explained. We Germans have tried to pull this nifty trick a few times
ourselves. Unfortunately, in a democracy any government that has come
into office not through a coup but through free elections is regarded
as an expression of the will of the people. That is why we are talking
about representative democracy.
"Almost everyone who has had a say in this adventure seems to belong
to the British establishment, meaning they went to an outrageously
expensive private school and completed their studies at Cambridge or
Oxford. What in the name of God do they teach them? It certainly can’t
be skills that prepare them for the real world. Or would you trust a
manager who regularly shows up to negotiations so haphazardly that
they have to be broken off again after just a few minutes?
"Wherever you look, you see buffoons. Of Johnson you can at least say
the man knows something about intrigue. He’s also a brilliant writer,
which naturally endears him to a columnist such as me. But, hand on
heart, what does it tell us about a country when a man like Johnson is
regarded as one of the clearest-thinking minds in the circle of power?
"Two weeks ago May had a chance to present her ideas for an orderly
exit to the other 27 EU heads. She left them confused, and trying to
figure out the meaning of her presentation over dinner. Angela Merkel
indicated that she didn’t really understand what May had said, but
that she would ask the Brexit chief negotiator Michel Barnier to
explain it to her. I didn’t make that up; Bloomberg reported it.
"The disadvantage of being intelligent is that it hurts when you act
stupid. The fool doesn’t feel this pain because they don’t have to
pretend. For a nation, the problem begins when the level of stupidity
at the top is unusually high, because the smarter people have thrown
in the towel. This is generally the point at which decline becomes
inevitable."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/06/britain-foolish-decline-boris-johnson
MM
Excellent piece, which shows Britain as others see us.

The ardent Brexiters will no doubt tell us that it's the view of one
sour German elitist, and that the rest of Europe admires Britain's
courageous stand against EU hegemony and the skill and intelligence of
Britain's negotiators.

Unfortunately most Brexiters don't actually have an O level between
them. But they read whatever newspapers confirm their own prejudices.
abelard
2018-11-07 14:09:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Excellent piece, which shows Britain as others see us.
The ardent Brexiters will no doubt tell us that it's the view of one
sour German elitist, and that the rest of Europe admires Britain's
courageous stand against EU hegemony and the skill and intelligence of
Britain's negotiators.
Unfortunately most Brexiters don't actually have an O level between
them. But they read whatever newspapers confirm their own prejudices.
you are unconsciously foolish enough to be amusing...half the
population now have 'o' levels and the world beats a path to
britain for education
not to germany...

it is also useful to see the sort of 'mind' that 'reads' the groaniad

i'll just bet you'd have been contributing to lining the roads to
greet and cheer the fuehrer..
of course he also lost and lost and lost
we have a word for it...hubris...we stole it from the greeks...
not the germans who are presently oppressing greece...again
--
www.abelard.org
Joe
2018-11-07 14:13:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 13:33:35 +0000
Post by The Todal
Unfortunately most Brexiters don't actually have an O level between
them. But they read whatever newspapers confirm their own prejudices.
While you clearly have no prejudices whatever...
--
Joe
The Todal
2018-11-07 14:45:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 13:33:35 +0000
Post by The Todal
Unfortunately most Brexiters don't actually have an O level between
them. But they read whatever newspapers confirm their own prejudices.
While you clearly have no prejudices whatever...
Only an idiot would claim that there are people who have no prejudices
whatever.

Absolutely everyone has prejudices. They are not necessarily harmful.
Ian Jackson
2018-11-07 14:57:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 13:33:35 +0000
Post by The Todal
Unfortunately most Brexiters don't actually have an O level between
them. But they read whatever newspapers confirm their own prejudices.
While you clearly have no prejudices whatever...
To be fair, I know several 100% Brexiteers who have good degrees.
However, most are also pretty old. This obviously indicates that a
having a good education and a long experience of life doesn't
necessarily mean that you are always good at weighing up the pros and
cons of an unusual, complex, once-in-a-lifetime situation (especially
one that may not affect your personal way of life too seriously), and
then making a sensible decision.
--
Ian
The Todal
2018-11-07 15:51:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Joe
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 13:33:35 +0000
Post by The Todal
Unfortunately most Brexiters don't actually have an O level between
them. But they read whatever newspapers confirm their own prejudices.
While you clearly have no prejudices whatever...
To be fair, I know several 100% Brexiteers who have good degrees.
Me too.

There are some Leave supporters in my family who have doctorates and
good careers.

Unfortunately they aren't typical of the majority of Leave voters, or
for that matter Remain voters.
Post by Ian Jackson
However, most are also pretty old. This obviously indicates that a
having a good education and a long experience of life doesn't
necessarily mean that you are always good at weighing up the pros and
cons of an unusual, complex, once-in-a-lifetime situation (especially
one that may not affect your personal way of life too seriously), and
then making a sensible decision.
Voting Leave was a perfectly reasonable decision. I still think so.

However, two years on and with much more information about the
consequences of Brexit, to dismiss all objections to Brexit as
irrelevant or ill-founded is the behaviour of a moron. To say that there
is a conspiracy of civil servants determined to sabotage Brexit or that
anyone opposed to Brexit is in the pay of the EU, is mule-like. A
determination to justify one's 2016 vote come what may.
Handsome Jack
2018-11-07 17:08:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Post by Ian Jackson
However, most are also pretty old. This obviously indicates that a
having a good education and a long experience of life doesn't
necessarily mean that you are always good at weighing up the pros and
cons of an unusual, complex, once-in-a-lifetime situation (especially
one that may not affect your personal way of life too seriously), and
then making a sensible decision.
No, it just indicates that some educated people don't agree with you.
Post by The Todal
Voting Leave was a perfectly reasonable decision. I still think so.
However, two years on and with much more information about the
consequences of Brexit, to dismiss all objections to Brexit as
irrelevant or ill-founded is the behaviour of a moron.
I know of no-one who has ever said that, do you? It is obvious that
there are pros and cons to belonging to the EU, and Leavers simply think
the cons outweigh the pros.
Post by The Todal
To say that there is a conspiracy of civil servants determined to
sabotage Brexit
There most certainly is. They are in the Cabinet Office's Europe unit.
--
Jack
Pamela
2018-11-08 21:54:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by The Todal
Post by Ian Jackson
However, most are also pretty old. This obviously indicates that a
having a good education and a long experience of life doesn't
necessarily mean that you are always good at weighing up the pros and
cons of an unusual, complex, once-in-a-lifetime situation (especially
one that may not affect your personal way of life too seriously), and
then making a sensible decision.
No, it just indicates that some educated people don't agree with you.
Post by The Todal
Voting Leave was a perfectly reasonable decision. I still think so.
However, two years on and with much more information about the
consequences of Brexit, to dismiss all objections to Brexit as
irrelevant or ill-founded is the behaviour of a moron.
I know of no-one who has ever said that, do you? It is obvious that
there are pros and cons to belonging to the EU, and Leavers simply think
the cons outweigh the pros.
I have come across many Brexiteers who say exactly what Todal describes.
The mentality of Brexiteers has been, well, illuminating but not in a good
way.
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by The Todal
To say that there is a conspiracy of civil servants determined to
sabotage Brexit
There most certainly is. They are in the Cabinet Office's Europe unit.
Paranoid piffle. A group of civil servants which is disposed towards good
relations with the EU hardly constitutes a conspiracy.
MM
2018-11-08 10:05:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Joe
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 13:33:35 +0000
Post by The Todal
Unfortunately most Brexiters don't actually have an O level between
them. But they read whatever newspapers confirm their own prejudices.
While you clearly have no prejudices whatever...
To be fair, I know several 100% Brexiteers who have good degrees.
Me too.
There are some Leave supporters in my family who have doctorates and
good careers.
Unfortunately they aren't typical of the majority of Leave voters, or
for that matter Remain voters.
Post by Ian Jackson
However, most are also pretty old. This obviously indicates that a
having a good education and a long experience of life doesn't
necessarily mean that you are always good at weighing up the pros and
cons of an unusual, complex, once-in-a-lifetime situation (especially
one that may not affect your personal way of life too seriously), and
then making a sensible decision.
Voting Leave was a perfectly reasonable decision. I still think so.
However, two years on and with much more information about the
consequences of Brexit, to dismiss all objections to Brexit as
irrelevant or ill-founded is the behaviour of a moron. To say that there
is a conspiracy of civil servants determined to sabotage Brexit or that
anyone opposed to Brexit is in the pay of the EU, is mule-like. A
determination to justify one's 2016 vote come what may.
That's because Brexit has become a religion for most of the 17 million
unthinking, poorly educated people who voted. Keep them in the dark
and feed them bullshit! David Cameron just didn't realise how many
thickoes would get out and vote.

MM
Fredxx
2018-11-10 20:42:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MM
Post by The Todal
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Joe
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 13:33:35 +0000
Post by The Todal
Unfortunately most Brexiters don't actually have an O level between
them. But they read whatever newspapers confirm their own prejudices.
While you clearly have no prejudices whatever...
To be fair, I know several 100% Brexiteers who have good degrees.
Me too.
There are some Leave supporters in my family who have doctorates and
good careers.
Unfortunately they aren't typical of the majority of Leave voters, or
for that matter Remain voters.
Post by Ian Jackson
However, most are also pretty old. This obviously indicates that a
having a good education and a long experience of life doesn't
necessarily mean that you are always good at weighing up the pros and
cons of an unusual, complex, once-in-a-lifetime situation (especially
one that may not affect your personal way of life too seriously), and
then making a sensible decision.
Voting Leave was a perfectly reasonable decision. I still think so.
However, two years on and with much more information about the
consequences of Brexit, to dismiss all objections to Brexit as
irrelevant or ill-founded is the behaviour of a moron. To say that there
is a conspiracy of civil servants determined to sabotage Brexit or that
anyone opposed to Brexit is in the pay of the EU, is mule-like. A
determination to justify one's 2016 vote come what may.
That's because Brexit has become a religion for most of the 17 million
unthinking, poorly educated people who voted.
You've summed yourself up admirably. Keep up the good work.
Post by MM
Keep them in the dark
and feed them bullshit! David Cameron just didn't realise how many
thickoes would get out and vote.
The real thickos are those who spoil their paper and rant on and abuse
Brexiters.
MM
2018-11-11 10:34:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Fredxx
Post by MM
Post by The Todal
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Joe
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 13:33:35 +0000
Post by The Todal
Unfortunately most Brexiters don't actually have an O level between
them. But they read whatever newspapers confirm their own prejudices.
While you clearly have no prejudices whatever...
To be fair, I know several 100% Brexiteers who have good degrees.
Me too.
There are some Leave supporters in my family who have doctorates and
good careers.
Unfortunately they aren't typical of the majority of Leave voters, or
for that matter Remain voters.
Post by Ian Jackson
However, most are also pretty old. This obviously indicates that a
having a good education and a long experience of life doesn't
necessarily mean that you are always good at weighing up the pros and
cons of an unusual, complex, once-in-a-lifetime situation (especially
one that may not affect your personal way of life too seriously), and
then making a sensible decision.
Voting Leave was a perfectly reasonable decision. I still think so.
However, two years on and with much more information about the
consequences of Brexit, to dismiss all objections to Brexit as
irrelevant or ill-founded is the behaviour of a moron. To say that there
is a conspiracy of civil servants determined to sabotage Brexit or that
anyone opposed to Brexit is in the pay of the EU, is mule-like. A
determination to justify one's 2016 vote come what may.
That's because Brexit has become a religion for most of the 17 million
unthinking, poorly educated people who voted.
You've summed yourself up admirably. Keep up the good work.
But *I* voted to remain, so that's another of your arguments deflating
rapidly.
Post by Fredxx
Post by MM
Keep them in the dark
and feed them bullshit! David Cameron just didn't realise how many
thickoes would get out and vote.
The real thickos are those who spoil their paper and rant on and abuse
Brexiters.
I didn't spoil mine! As a European I proudly placed my cross in the
Remain box.

MM
Incubus
2018-11-07 15:56:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Joe
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 13:33:35 +0000
Post by The Todal
Unfortunately most Brexiters don't actually have an O level between
them. But they read whatever newspapers confirm their own prejudices.
While you clearly have no prejudices whatever...
To be fair, I know several 100% Brexiteers who have good degrees.
However, most are also pretty old. This obviously indicates that a
having a good education and a long experience of life doesn't
necessarily mean that you are always good at weighing up the pros and
cons of an unusual, complex, once-in-a-lifetime situation (especially
one that may not affect your personal way of life too seriously), and
then making a sensible decision.
I suppose not, if your criterion for making a sensible decision is that it is
one with which you agree.
Ian Jackson
2018-11-07 16:26:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Incubus
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Joe
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 13:33:35 +0000
Post by The Todal
Unfortunately most Brexiters don't actually have an O level between
them. But they read whatever newspapers confirm their own prejudices.
While you clearly have no prejudices whatever...
To be fair, I know several 100% Brexiteers who have good degrees.
However, most are also pretty old. This obviously indicates that a
having a good education and a long experience of life doesn't
necessarily mean that you are always good at weighing up the pros and
cons of an unusual, complex, once-in-a-lifetime situation (especially
one that may not affect your personal way of life too seriously), and
then making a sensible decision.
I suppose not, if your criterion for making a sensible decision is that it is
one with which you agree.
With one friend, two years ago he immediately gave bent (or was it
straight?) bananas as his main reason for voting to leave. Even today,
he rather mischievously gives the same answer. Obviously, he has other
reasons, but in general they are fairly unspecific and vague. While most
of us would probably (and do) have some strong reasons for leaving, he
really doesn't - and seems fairly unconcerned about all potential chaos
it's likely create.
--
Ian
JNugent
2018-11-07 16:34:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Incubus
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Joe
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 13:33:35 +0000
Post by The Todal
Unfortunately most Brexiters don't actually have an O level between
them. But they read whatever newspapers confirm their own prejudices.
While you clearly have no prejudices whatever...
To be fair, I know several 100% Brexiteers who have good degrees.
However, most are also pretty old. This obviously indicates that a
having a good education and a long experience of life doesn't
necessarily mean that you are always good at weighing up the pros and
cons of an unusual, complex, once-in-a-lifetime situation (especially
one that may not affect your personal way of life too seriously), and
then making a sensible decision.
I suppose not, if your criterion for making a sensible decision is that it is
one with which you agree.
With one friend, two years ago he immediately gave bent (or was it
straight?) bananas as his main reason for voting to leave. Even today,
he rather mischievously gives the same answer. Obviously, he has other
reasons, but in general they are fairly unspecific and vague. While most
of us would probably (and do) have some strong reasons for leaving, he
really doesn't - and seems fairly unconcerned about all potential chaos
it's likely create.
With one friend, two years ago he immediately gave external constraint
of Conservative government as his main reason for voting to remain. Even
today, he unabashedly gives the same answer. Obviously, he has other
reasons, but in general they may be fairly unspecific and vague. While
most of us might probably have some reasons for remaining, he really
doesn't have any reason other than to try to frustrate the intentions of
UK voters and UK election outcomes (certain sorts). He seems fairly
unconcerned about the lack of principle involved. This is a friend I've
known since primary school. He didn't pass the 11+ or achieve any other
educational qualifications, but he's a good bloke and we've always
remained in touch - and got on, despite anything referred to above.
Incubus
2018-11-07 16:42:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Incubus
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Joe
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 13:33:35 +0000
Post by The Todal
Unfortunately most Brexiters don't actually have an O level between
them. But they read whatever newspapers confirm their own prejudices.
While you clearly have no prejudices whatever...
To be fair, I know several 100% Brexiteers who have good degrees.
However, most are also pretty old. This obviously indicates that a
having a good education and a long experience of life doesn't
necessarily mean that you are always good at weighing up the pros and
cons of an unusual, complex, once-in-a-lifetime situation (especially
one that may not affect your personal way of life too seriously), and
then making a sensible decision.
I suppose not, if your criterion for making a sensible decision is that it is
one with which you agree.
With one friend, two years ago he immediately gave bent (or was it
straight?) bananas as his main reason for voting to leave. Even today,
he rather mischievously gives the same answer. Obviously, he has other
reasons, but in general they are fairly unspecific and vague. While most
of us would probably (and do) have some strong reasons for leaving, he
really doesn't - and seems fairly unconcerned about all potential chaos
it's likely create.
Perhaps he just doesn't want to discuss it. Either way, I wouldn't be terribly
influenced in my opinions by one Leave voter.
Joe
2018-11-07 16:50:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 16:26:38 +0000
Post by Ian Jackson
With one friend, two years ago he immediately gave bent (or was it
straight?) bananas as his main reason for voting to leave. Even
today, he rather mischievously gives the same answer.
You clearly don't think it's a good reason. Why not?

Here we have a supra-national government asserting that bananas with
'abnormal curvature' cannot be considered Class A fruit, and presumably
making it a crime to so designate 'abnormally curved' bananas.

Is this really what you think a government should be doing with its
time and our money? Are you honestly incapable of looking at a banana,
its curvature, its colour, state of ripeness, whether it is undamaged,
and coming to your own conclusions about whether it is worth the
indicated price? Because the stupendously expensive EU government is
telling you that you are, and also telling you that it has no more
important matters to worry about. It has already fixed everything more
important than abnormally curved bananas. Do you think so?

That's what your friend was telling you. He may not even eat bananas.
--
Joe
Incubus
2018-11-07 17:21:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 16:26:38 +0000
Post by Ian Jackson
With one friend, two years ago he immediately gave bent (or was it
straight?) bananas as his main reason for voting to leave. Even
today, he rather mischievously gives the same answer.
You clearly don't think it's a good reason. Why not?
Here we have a supra-national government asserting that bananas with
'abnormal curvature' cannot be considered Class A fruit, and presumably
making it a crime to so designate 'abnormally curved' bananas.
Is this really what you think a government should be doing with its
time and our money? Are you honestly incapable of looking at a banana,
its curvature, its colour, state of ripeness, whether it is undamaged,
and coming to your own conclusions about whether it is worth the
indicated price? Because the stupendously expensive EU government is
telling you that you are, and also telling you that it has no more
important matters to worry about. It has already fixed everything more
important than abnormally curved bananas. Do you think so?
That's what your friend was telling you. He may not even eat bananas.
They have to give themselves things to do otherwise we will start to wonder
what they are doing for us besides flooding us with migrants and costing us
money.
Pamela
2018-11-09 22:55:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 16:26:38 +0000
Post by Ian Jackson
With one friend, two years ago he immediately gave bent (or was it
straight?) bananas as his main reason for voting to leave. Even
today, he rather mischievously gives the same answer.
You clearly don't think it's a good reason. Why not?
Here we have a supra-national government asserting that bananas with
'abnormal curvature' cannot be considered Class A fruit, and presumably
making it a crime to so designate 'abnormally curved' bananas.
Is this really what you think a government should be doing with its
time and our money? Are you honestly incapable of looking at a banana,
its curvature, its colour, state of ripeness, whether it is undamaged,
and coming to your own conclusions about whether it is worth the
indicated price? Because the stupendously expensive EU government is
telling you that you are, and also telling you that it has no more
important matters to worry about. It has already fixed everything more
important than abnormally curved bananas. Do you think so?
That's what your friend was telling you. He may not even eat bananas.
You shouldn't believe the Boris Johnson version of this.

The EU banana regs only set grading boundaries rules. This was requested
by industry to make sure importers know exactly what they'll be getting
when they order a box of bananas.

Trust the UK to misunderstand something as simple as that.
Bod
2018-11-07 17:23:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Incubus
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Joe
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 13:33:35 +0000
Post by The Todal
Unfortunately most Brexiters don't actually have an O level between
them. But they read whatever newspapers confirm their own prejudices.
While you clearly have no prejudices whatever...
To be fair, I know several 100% Brexiteers who have good degrees.
However, most are also pretty old. This obviously indicates that a
having a good education and a long experience of life doesn't
necessarily mean that you are always good at weighing up the pros and
cons of an unusual, complex, once-in-a-lifetime situation (especially
one that may not affect your personal way of life too seriously), and
then making a sensible decision.
I suppose not, if your criterion for making a sensible decision is that it is
one with which you agree.
With one friend, two years ago he immediately gave bent (or was it
straight?) bananas as his main reason for voting to leave. Even today,
he rather mischievously gives the same answer. Obviously, he has other
reasons, but in general they are fairly unspecific and vague. While most
of us would probably (and do) have some strong reasons for leaving, he
really doesn't - and seems fairly unconcerned about all potential chaos
it's likely create.
We're leaving so we can make our own laws, not what the EU dictates.
--
Bod
MM
2018-11-08 10:07:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Incubus
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Joe
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 13:33:35 +0000
Post by The Todal
Unfortunately most Brexiters don't actually have an O level between
them. But they read whatever newspapers confirm their own prejudices.
While you clearly have no prejudices whatever...
To be fair, I know several 100% Brexiteers who have good degrees.
However, most are also pretty old. This obviously indicates that a
having a good education and a long experience of life doesn't
necessarily mean that you are always good at weighing up the pros and
cons of an unusual, complex, once-in-a-lifetime situation (especially
one that may not affect your personal way of life too seriously), and
then making a sensible decision.
I suppose not, if your criterion for making a sensible decision is that it is
one with which you agree.
With one friend, two years ago he immediately gave bent (or was it
straight?) bananas as his main reason for voting to leave. Even today,
he rather mischievously gives the same answer. Obviously, he has other
reasons, but in general they are fairly unspecific and vague. While most
of us would probably (and do) have some strong reasons for leaving, he
really doesn't - and seems fairly unconcerned about all potential chaos
it's likely create.
We're leaving so we can make our own laws, not what the EU dictates.
Does that include getting a job lot of straight bananas delivered to
Britain?

MM
The Todal
2018-11-08 17:22:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MM
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Incubus
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Joe
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 13:33:35 +0000
Post by The Todal
Unfortunately most Brexiters don't actually have an O level between
them. But they read whatever newspapers confirm their own prejudices.
While you clearly have no prejudices whatever...
To be fair, I know several 100% Brexiteers who have good degrees.
However, most are also pretty old. This obviously indicates that a
having a good education and a long experience of life doesn't
necessarily mean that you are always good at weighing up the pros and
cons of an unusual, complex, once-in-a-lifetime situation (especially
one that may not affect your personal way of life too seriously), and
then making a sensible decision.
I suppose not, if your criterion for making a sensible decision is that it is
one with which you agree.
With one friend, two years ago he immediately gave bent (or was it
straight?) bananas as his main reason for voting to leave. Even today,
he rather mischievously gives the same answer. Obviously, he has other
reasons, but in general they are fairly unspecific and vague. While most
of us would probably (and do) have some strong reasons for leaving, he
really doesn't - and seems fairly unconcerned about all potential chaos
it's likely create.
We're leaving so we can make our own laws, not what the EU dictates.
Does that include getting a job lot of straight bananas delivered to
Britain?
MM
Our factories will close and our financial service businesses will be
transferred to Germany or France.

But one type of business which is booming in Britain is personal
training. Lots of people offer their services as experts in physical
exercise and getting fit. We will lead the world in personal training.
People will come from far and wide to attend our classes.

And we'll continue to sell our houses and office blocks to overseas
investors so that fewer Brits than ever will be able to afford starter
homes. That won't change. We will be able to make our own laws. Those
laws won't help ordinary people.
Pamela
2018-11-10 13:43:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Joe
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 13:33:35 +0000
Post by The Todal
Unfortunately most Brexiters don't actually have an O level between
them. But they read whatever newspapers confirm their own prejudices.
While you clearly have no prejudices whatever...
To be fair, I know several 100% Brexiteers who have good degrees.
However, most are also pretty old. This obviously indicates that a
having a good education and a long experience of life doesn't
necessarily mean that you are always good at weighing up the pros and
cons of an unusual, complex, once-in-a-lifetime situation (especially
one that may not affect your personal way of life too seriously), and
then making a sensible decision.
A lot of gullible people voted Leave.

In addition, the Brexit campaign was characterised by outright lies,
promises which couldn't be delivered, unaccountability, an anti-govt
protest vote and funded illegally - all of which were sufficient to tip
the balance of the outcome.

Many Remainers now openly complain they were misled or cheated.
Norman Wells
2018-11-10 16:09:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
A lot of gullible people voted Leave.
I expect a lot voted remain too. That's the trouble with elections.
You get a cross-section.
Post by Pamela
In addition, the Brexit campaign was characterised by outright lies,
promises which couldn't be delivered, unaccountability, an anti-govt
protest vote and funded illegally - all of which were sufficient to tip
the balance of the outcome.
Many Remainers now openly complain they were misled or cheated.
I think you'll find it's a characteristic of Remainers. They lost, you
see, and do not have the grace to accept that they lost. It's not for
nothing that the term 'Remoaners' has come into the English language.
The Todal
2018-11-11 15:21:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
A lot of gullible people voted Leave.
I expect a lot voted remain too.  That's the trouble with elections. You
get a cross-section.
Post by Pamela
In addition, the Brexit campaign was characterised by outright lies,
promises which couldn't be delivered, unaccountability, an anti-govt
protest vote and funded illegally - all of which were sufficient to tip
the balance of the outcome.
Many Remainers now openly complain they were misled or cheated.
I think you'll find it's a characteristic of Remainers.  They lost, you
see, and do not have the grace to accept that they lost.  It's not for
nothing that the term 'Remoaners' has come into the English language.
No, it was the country that lost. Not the remainers.

Fortunately we won't be leaving the EU. All the intelligent politicians
now know and understand that leaving the EU would be a grotesque act of
self-harm, so whether or not you call those politicians "remoaners",
they will ultimately win, and the dolts and fools will lose.
The Todal
2018-11-11 15:53:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Post by Pamela
A lot of gullible people voted Leave.
I expect a lot voted remain too.  That's the trouble with elections.
You get a cross-section.
Post by Pamela
In addition, the Brexit campaign was characterised by outright lies,
promises which couldn't be delivered, unaccountability, an anti-govt
protest vote and funded illegally - all of which were sufficient to tip
the balance of the outcome.
Many Remainers now openly complain they were misled or cheated.
I think you'll find it's a characteristic of Remainers.  They lost,
you see, and do not have the grace to accept that they lost.  It's not
for nothing that the term 'Remoaners' has come into the English language.
No, it was the country that lost. Not the remainers.
Fortunately we won't be leaving the EU.  All the intelligent politicians
now know and understand that leaving the EU would be a grotesque act of
self-harm, so whether or not you call those politicians "remoaners",
they will ultimately win, and the dolts and fools will lose.
By the way, the dolts and fools aren't the voters. The voters have done
nothing wrong. The dolts and fools are the politicians who believe that
Brexit can be good for our country and who think that wishing it so will
make it so.
abelard
2018-11-11 16:32:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Post by The Todal
Post by Pamela
A lot of gullible people voted Leave.
I expect a lot voted remain too.  That's the trouble with elections.
You get a cross-section.
Post by Pamela
In addition, the Brexit campaign was characterised by outright lies,
promises which couldn't be delivered, unaccountability, an anti-govt
protest vote and funded illegally - all of which were sufficient to tip
the balance of the outcome.
Many Remainers now openly complain they were misled or cheated.
I think you'll find it's a characteristic of Remainers.  They lost,
you see, and do not have the grace to accept that they lost.  It's not
for nothing that the term 'Remoaners' has come into the English language.
No, it was the country that lost. Not the remainers.
Fortunately we won't be leaving the EU.  All the intelligent politicians
now know and understand that leaving the EU would be a grotesque act of
self-harm, so whether or not you call those politicians "remoaners",
they will ultimately win, and the dolts and fools will lose.
By the way, the dolts and fools aren't the voters. The voters have done
nothing wrong. The dolts and fools are the politicians who believe that
Brexit can be good for our country and who think that wishing it so will
make it so.
just more of your vacuous religious pronouncements that you never
can make good on
--
www.abelard.org
Norman Wells
2018-11-11 17:28:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Post by Pamela
A lot of gullible people voted Leave.
I expect a lot voted remain too.  That's the trouble with elections.
You get a cross-section.
Post by Pamela
In addition, the Brexit campaign was characterised by outright lies,
promises which couldn't be delivered, unaccountability, an anti-govt
protest vote and funded illegally - all of which were sufficient to tip
the balance of the outcome.
Many Remainers now openly complain they were misled or cheated.
I think you'll find it's a characteristic of Remainers.  They lost,
you see, and do not have the grace to accept that they lost.  It's not
for nothing that the term 'Remoaners' has come into the English language.
No, it was the country that lost. Not the remainers.
But it's only the remainers who are complaining. The country hasn't
said a word.
Post by The Todal
Fortunately we won't be leaving the EU.  All the intelligent politicians
now know and understand that leaving the EU would be a grotesque act of
self-harm, so whether or not you call those politicians "remoaners",
they will ultimately win, and the dolts and fools will lose.
So, how will that happen then? Give your most likely course of events.
abelard
2018-11-10 16:59:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
A lot of gullible people voted Leave.
In addition, the Brexit campaign was characterised by outright lies,
promises which couldn't be delivered, unaccountability, an anti-govt
protest vote and funded illegally - all of which were sufficient to tip
the balance of the outcome.
Many Remainers now openly complain they were misled or cheated.
exactly the same can as accurately be said of both sides..in fact you
continue to assert claims that you cannot back up
--
www.abelard.org
Joe
2018-11-10 20:59:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 13:43:58 GMT
Post by Pamela
Many Remainers now openly complain they were misled or cheated.
Anybody who voted on the basis of what they were told by other people
has no cause for complaint.
--
Joe
Incubus
2018-11-07 15:46:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Post by MM
By Jan Fleischhauer. See link at end.
"It’s symptomatic of Britain’s decline when a man such as Boris
Johnson is regarded as one of its clearest thinkers"
"I have always admired the British. We owe them afternoon tea, Monty
Python and the Beatles. This is more than many nations have achieved
in their history. I was also one of the few columnists in Germany who
found it ridiculous to be angry at our British neighbours after they
decided to leave the European club they had once helped to make great.
I felt sorry whenever I saw the British prime minister stumble through
a European summit, with her crooked smile and her even more crooked
offers. Right now, though, I’m feeling less sympathetic. In fact, I
have been catching myself thinking: 'Go with God. But go!' Maybe this
week could be the week things become clear. But who would bet on it?
"The UK is making a spectacular demonstration of how to make a fool of
yourself with the entire world looking on. What was once the most
powerful empire on Earth can’t even find its way to the door without
tripping over its own feet. When Theresa May arrives in Brussels with
yet another proposal, you can be sure it won’t be worth the paper it’s
written 24 hours later. She either presents ideas that Brussels has
long ago rejected, her plans have been rejected by her own party, or
Boris Johnson tears them to pieces in his newspaper column.
"No deal is better than a bad deal? If you are convinced of this: go
ahead. A hard Brexit will cost the rest of us a lot -- there’s no
question about that -- but it is nothing compared to what is awaiting
you Britons.
"First the trucks will be jammed all the way to Wales, because the
borders are back. Then the fuel will run out at filling stations and
medicines will run out in pharmacies. And once all the Polish plumbers
have gone home, there will be nobody to call when the toilet gets
blocked.
"So there you are: left in your water-damaged homes, without fuel and
aspirins, but with extremely bad-tempered Russians as neighbours. And
they will realise they have invested far too much money in the English
real estate market and will be incensed because their investments are
going down the drain.
"When I mocked the Brexit chaos in Der Spiegel recently, I received a
lot of mail saying that this wasn’t fair. One line of attack was that
only the English had voted to leave the European Union, so it was not
a British decision. Second, the government in London wouldn’t speak up
for right-thinking people who want to stay close to the EU.
"I can only say: sorry, folks, but it doesn’t work to declare the
government a kind of foreign power, whose rise can’t really be
explained. We Germans have tried to pull this nifty trick a few times
ourselves. Unfortunately, in a democracy any government that has come
into office not through a coup but through free elections is regarded
as an expression of the will of the people. That is why we are talking
about representative democracy.
"Almost everyone who has had a say in this adventure seems to belong
to the British establishment, meaning they went to an outrageously
expensive private school and completed their studies at Cambridge or
Oxford. What in the name of God do they teach them? It certainly can’t
be skills that prepare them for the real world. Or would you trust a
manager who regularly shows up to negotiations so haphazardly that
they have to be broken off again after just a few minutes?
"Wherever you look, you see buffoons. Of Johnson you can at least say
the man knows something about intrigue. He’s also a brilliant writer,
which naturally endears him to a columnist such as me. But, hand on
heart, what does it tell us about a country when a man like Johnson is
regarded as one of the clearest-thinking minds in the circle of power?
"Two weeks ago May had a chance to present her ideas for an orderly
exit to the other 27 EU heads. She left them confused, and trying to
figure out the meaning of her presentation over dinner. Angela Merkel
indicated that she didn’t really understand what May had said, but
that she would ask the Brexit chief negotiator Michel Barnier to
explain it to her. I didn’t make that up; Bloomberg reported it.
"The disadvantage of being intelligent is that it hurts when you act
stupid. The fool doesn’t feel this pain because they don’t have to
pretend. For a nation, the problem begins when the level of stupidity
at the top is unusually high, because the smarter people have thrown
in the towel. This is generally the point at which decline becomes
inevitable."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/06/britain-foolish-decline-boris-johnson
MM
Excellent piece, which shows Britain as others see us.
The ardent Brexiters will no doubt tell us that it's the view of one
sour German elitist, and that the rest of Europe admires Britain's
courageous stand against EU hegemony and the skill and intelligence of
Britain's negotiators.
Unfortunately most Brexiters don't actually have an O level between
them. But they read whatever newspapers confirm their own prejudices.
One could say the same for the Remainers, whose bias continues to be extreme.

Who but the most simplistic of individuals would believe that an entire country
is being judged on the performance of a few of its politicians? By the same
token, we might judge much of Europe and find them wanting.
R. Mark Clayton
2018-11-07 16:31:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Post by MM
By Jan Fleischhauer. See link at end.
"It’s symptomatic of Britain’s decline when a man such as Boris
Johnson is regarded as one of its clearest thinkers"
"I have always admired the British. We owe them afternoon tea, Monty
Python and the Beatles. This is more than many nations have achieved
in their history. I was also one of the few columnists in Germany who
found it ridiculous to be angry at our British neighbours after they
decided to leave the European club they had once helped to make great.
I felt sorry whenever I saw the British prime minister stumble through
a European summit, with her crooked smile and her even more crooked
offers. Right now, though, I’m feeling less sympathetic. In fact, I
have been catching myself thinking: 'Go with God. But go!' Maybe this
week could be the week things become clear. But who would bet on it?
"The UK is making a spectacular demonstration of how to make a fool of
yourself with the entire world looking on. What was once the most
powerful empire on Earth can’t even find its way to the door without
tripping over its own feet. When Theresa May arrives in Brussels with
yet another proposal, you can be sure it won’t be worth the paper it’s
written 24 hours later. She either presents ideas that Brussels has
long ago rejected, her plans have been rejected by her own party, or
Boris Johnson tears them to pieces in his newspaper column.
"No deal is better than a bad deal? If you are convinced of this: go
ahead. A hard Brexit will cost the rest of us a lot -- there’s no
question about that -- but it is nothing compared to what is awaiting
you Britons.
"First the trucks will be jammed all the way to Wales, because the
borders are back. Then the fuel will run out at filling stations and
medicines will run out in pharmacies. And once all the Polish plumbers
have gone home, there will be nobody to call when the toilet gets
blocked.
"So there you are: left in your water-damaged homes, without fuel and
aspirins, but with extremely bad-tempered Russians as neighbours. And
they will realise they have invested far too much money in the English
real estate market and will be incensed because their investments are
going down the drain.
"When I mocked the Brexit chaos in Der Spiegel recently, I received a
lot of mail saying that this wasn’t fair. One line of attack was that
only the English had voted to leave the European Union, so it was not
a British decision. Second, the government in London wouldn’t speak up
for right-thinking people who want to stay close to the EU.
"I can only say: sorry, folks, but it doesn’t work to declare the
government a kind of foreign power, whose rise can’t really be
explained. We Germans have tried to pull this nifty trick a few times
ourselves. Unfortunately, in a democracy any government that has come
into office not through a coup but through free elections is regarded
as an expression of the will of the people. That is why we are talking
about representative democracy.
"Almost everyone who has had a say in this adventure seems to belong
to the British establishment, meaning they went to an outrageously
expensive private school and completed their studies at Cambridge or
Oxford. What in the name of God do they teach them? It certainly can’t
be skills that prepare them for the real world. Or would you trust a
manager who regularly shows up to negotiations so haphazardly that
they have to be broken off again after just a few minutes?
"Wherever you look, you see buffoons. Of Johnson you can at least say
the man knows something about intrigue. He’s also a brilliant writer,
which naturally endears him to a columnist such as me. But, hand on
heart, what does it tell us about a country when a man like Johnson is
regarded as one of the clearest-thinking minds in the circle of power?
"Two weeks ago May had a chance to present her ideas for an orderly
exit to the other 27 EU heads. She left them confused, and trying to
figure out the meaning of her presentation over dinner. Angela Merkel
indicated that she didn’t really understand what May had said, but
that she would ask the Brexit chief negotiator Michel Barnier to
explain it to her. I didn’t make that up; Bloomberg reported it.
"The disadvantage of being intelligent is that it hurts when you act
stupid. The fool doesn’t feel this pain because they don’t have to
pretend. For a nation, the problem begins when the level of stupidity
at the top is unusually high, because the smarter people have thrown
in the towel. This is generally the point at which decline becomes
inevitable."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/06/britain-foolish-decline-boris-johnson
MM
Excellent piece, which shows Britain as others see us.
The ardent Brexiters will no doubt tell us that it's the view of one
sour German elitist, and that the rest of Europe admires Britain's
courageous stand against EU hegemony and the skill and intelligence of
Britain's negotiators.
Unfortunately most Brexiters don't actually have an O level between
them.
Please don't exaggerate - it's an A'level.
Post by The Todal
But they read whatever newspapers confirm their own prejudices.
OTOH some can't even do that...
Handsome Jack
2018-11-07 17:10:51 UTC
Reply
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Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by The Todal
Unfortunately most Brexiters don't actually have an O level between
them.
Please don't exaggerate - it's an A'level.
This from the man who said the Isle of Man took part in the referendum.
--
Jack
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