Discussion:
Fifty four percent in favour of proroguing Parliament??
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The Todal
2019-08-13 09:04:56 UTC
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Controversial news story of the day - based on a ComRes opinion poll
published in the Telegraph.

So maybe 54% aren't necessarily in favour of proroguing, but they are in
favour of Brexit, and a no-deal one if that's all that's available. And
62% believe that Parliament ISN'T more in tune with public opinion than
Boris Johnson (but does that actually mean anything? It means making
assumptions about what your fellow citizens think).

https://www.markpack.org.uk/159481/dreadful-opinion-poll-reporting-by-the-daily-telegraph/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/12/boris-johnson-has-publics-support-shut-parliament-get-brexit/
Ian Jackson
2019-08-13 10:03:13 UTC
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Post by The Todal
Controversial news story of the day - based on a ComRes opinion poll
published in the Telegraph.
So maybe 54% aren't necessarily in favour of proroguing, but they are
in favour of Brexit, and a no-deal one if that's all that's available.
And 62% believe that Parliament ISN'T more in tune with public opinion
than Boris Johnson (but does that actually mean anything? It means
making assumptions about what your fellow citizens think).
https://www.markpack.org.uk/159481/dreadful-opinion-poll-reporting-by-th
e-daily-telegraph/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/12/boris-johnson-has-public
s-support-shut-parliament-get-brexit/
Boris has said he is going to carry out lots of 'what's not to like'
policies. [Most of them are, of course, simply making good the damage
and neglect of his Conservative predecessors, but let's try not to
mention that.] If we get rid of him, these won't be happening - and many
probably consider that allowing him also to carry out Brexit will be an
acceptable price to pay for all the real benefits he has promised.
--
Ian
kat
2019-08-13 11:47:02 UTC
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writes
Controversial news story of the day - based on a ComRes opinion poll published
in the Telegraph.
So maybe 54% aren't necessarily in favour of proroguing, but they are in
favour of Brexit, and a no-deal one if that's all that's available. And 62%
believe that Parliament ISN'T more in tune with public opinion than Boris
Johnson (but does that actually mean anything? It means making assumptions
about what your fellow citizens think).
https://www.markpack.org.uk/159481/dreadful-opinion-poll-reporting-by-th
e-daily-telegraph/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/12/boris-johnson-has-public
s-support-shut-parliament-get-brexit/
Boris has said he is going to carry out lots of 'what's not to like' policies.
[Most of them are, of course, simply making good the damage and neglect of his
Conservative predecessors, but let's try not to mention that.] If we get rid of
him, these won't be happening - and many probably consider that allowing him
also to carry out Brexit will be an acceptable price to pay for all the real
benefits he has promised.
Or, maybe, the many who voted to leave do actually just want to do that. And if
the only way out is to force a No Deal through, despite the Brexit wreckers in
Parliament, that's what they would prefer?
--
kat
^..^<
tim...
2019-08-13 12:33:45 UTC
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Post by Ian Jackson
Post by The Todal
Controversial news story of the day - based on a ComRes opinion poll
published in the Telegraph.
So maybe 54% aren't necessarily in favour of proroguing, but they are in
favour of Brexit, and a no-deal one if that's all that's available. And
62% believe that Parliament ISN'T more in tune with public opinion than
Boris Johnson (but does that actually mean anything? It means making
assumptions about what your fellow citizens think).
https://www.markpack.org.uk/159481/dreadful-opinion-poll-reporting-by-th
e-daily-telegraph/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/12/boris-johnson-has-public
s-support-shut-parliament-get-brexit/
Boris has said he is going to carry out lots of 'what's not to like'
policies. [Most of them are, of course, simply making good the damage and
neglect of his Conservative predecessors, but let's try not to mention
that.]
I don't see the problem with mentioning that

None of the alternatives for Tory leader have taken the same view, nor for
that matter, in respect of some items, does the opposition.

It's irrelevant how we got here if he's the only person agreeing with the
public that doing it was wrong

tim
Yellow
2019-08-13 17:28:44 UTC
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Post by The Todal
Controversial news story of the day - based on a ComRes opinion poll
published in the Telegraph.
So maybe 54% aren't necessarily in favour of proroguing, but they are in
favour of Brexit, and a no-deal one if that's all that's available. And
62% believe that Parliament ISN'T more in tune with public opinion than
Boris Johnson (but does that actually mean anything? It means making
assumptions about what your fellow citizens think).
https://www.markpack.org.uk/159481/dreadful-opinion-poll-reporting-by-the-daily-telegraph/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/12/boris-johnson-has-publics-support-shut-parliament-get-brexit/
I am surprised you are surprised that people are fed up with
Parliament's behaviour over the last 3 years, driving us up a creak
without a paddle, so just want the silliness to stop.

We cannot move forward until we have left the EU and the threat of more
attempts by MPs to keep us exactly where we are for another extension
and then another and another, in the hope the public will cave needs to
stop.

And.... here we go again....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49329630

"Brexit: Ministers expect no-deal challenge next month"

"A No 10 source said they expected the challenge to come in the second
week of September, when MPs are are due to debate a report on Northern
Ireland.

The source assumes the EU will wait until after that date before
engaging in further negotiations."
Ian Jackson
2019-08-13 18:46:26 UTC
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Post by Yellow
Post by The Todal
Controversial news story of the day - based on a ComRes opinion poll
published in the Telegraph.
So maybe 54% aren't necessarily in favour of proroguing, but they are in
favour of Brexit, and a no-deal one if that's all that's available. And
62% believe that Parliament ISN'T more in tune with public opinion than
Boris Johnson (but does that actually mean anything? It means making
assumptions about what your fellow citizens think).
https://www.markpack.org.uk/159481/dreadful-opinion-poll-reporting-by-t
he-daily-telegraph/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/12/boris-johnson-has-publi
cs-support-shut-parliament-get-brexit/
I am surprised you are surprised that people are fed up with
Parliament's behaviour over the last 3 years, driving us up a creak
without a paddle, so just want the silliness to stop.
We cannot move forward until we have left the EU and the threat of more
attempts by MPs to keep us exactly where we are for another extension
and then another and another, in the hope the public will cave needs to
stop.
And.... here we go again....
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49329630
"Brexit: Ministers expect no-deal challenge next month"
"A No 10 source said they expected the challenge to come in the second
week of September, when MPs are are due to debate a report on Northern
Ireland.
The source assumes the EU will wait until after that date before
engaging in further negotiations."
Of course all this malarkey could be avoided if we took one step back,
asked for a further extension of A50 - and did the obvious thing of
asking The People if, in the light of experience of the last three years
(and also of various troublesome world events that are presently
unfolding) they really REALLY want us to continue on the present course.
Unfortunately, loud voices continue to scream UNDEMOCRATIC!!!!
--
Ian
Norman Wells
2019-08-13 18:53:58 UTC
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Post by Ian Jackson
Of course all this malarkey could be avoided if we took one step back,
asked for a further extension of A50 - and did the obvious thing of
asking The People if, in the light of experience of the last three years
(and also of various troublesome world events that are presently
unfolding) they really REALLY want us to continue on the present course.
Unfortunately, loud voices continue to scream UNDEMOCRATIC!!!!
Here's the view of the US's National Security Advisor:

"Mr Bolton called the EU’s bluff and insisted its refusal to
re-negotiate the failed withdrawal agreement was a ploy to “make the
peasants vote again and again”. Mr Bolton said: “The fashion in the
European Union is when the people vote the wrong way from the way the
elites want to go, is to make the peasants vote again and again until
they get it right."

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1165055/brexit-news-john-bolton-US-trade-deal-donald-trump-boris-johnson-eu
Ian Jackson
2019-08-13 19:08:16 UTC
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Post by Norman Wells
Post by Ian Jackson
Of course all this malarkey could be avoided if we took one step
back, asked for a further extension of A50 - and did the obvious
thing of asking The People if, in the light of experience of the last
three years (and also of various troublesome world events that are
presently unfolding) they really REALLY want us to continue on the
present course. Unfortunately, loud voices continue to scream UNDEMOCRATIC!!!!
"Mr Bolton called the EU’s bluff and insisted its refusal to
re-negotiate the failed withdrawal agreement was a ploy to “make the
peasants vote again and again”. Mr Bolton said: “The fashion in the
European Union is when the people vote the wrong way from the way the
elites want to go, is to make the peasants vote again and again until
they get it right."
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1165055/brexit-news-john-bolton-
US-trade-deal-donald-trump-boris-johnson-eu
Do you remember all fuss when Obama made an essentially off-the-cuff
comment that if the UK left the EU, we couldn't count on any priority
treatment when it came to making a trade deal with the USA -and he said
we would have to take our place at the back of the queue? Can you remind
me what the Brexiteers said?
--
Ian
Fredxx
2019-08-13 19:55:52 UTC
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Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Ian Jackson
Of course all this malarkey could be avoided if we took one step
back,  asked for a further extension of A50 - and did the obvious
thing of  asking The People if, in the light of experience of the
last three years  (and also of various troublesome world events that
are presently  unfolding) they really REALLY want us to continue on
the present course.  Unfortunately, loud voices continue to scream
UNDEMOCRATIC!!!!
"Mr Bolton called the EU’s bluff and insisted its refusal to
re-negotiate the failed withdrawal agreement was a ploy to “make the
peasants vote again and again”. Mr Bolton said: “The fashion in the
European Union is when the people vote the wrong way from the way the
elites want to go, is to make the peasants vote again and again until
they get it right."
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1165055/brexit-news-john-bolton-
US-trade-deal-donald-trump-boris-johnson-eu
Do you remember all fuss when Obama made an essentially off-the-cuff
comment that if the UK left the EU, we couldn't count on any priority
treatment when it came to making a trade deal with the USA -and he said
we would have to take our place at the back of the queue? Can you remind
me what the Brexiteers said?
I do, and much of the fuss was over the words and the turn of phrase
that someone versed in American English would never use. I do wonder
what Camoron gave away in return for those words.
Ian Jackson
2019-08-13 20:45:23 UTC
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In message <qiv4k6$m22$***@dont-email.me>, Fredxx <***@nospam.com>
writes
Post by Fredxx
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Ian Jackson
Of course all this malarkey could be avoided if we took one step
back,  asked for a further extension of A50 - and did the obvious
thing of  asking The People if, in the light of experience of the
last three years  (and also of various troublesome world events
that are presently  unfolding) they really REALLY want us to
continue on the present course.  Unfortunately, loud voices
continue to scream UNDEMOCRATIC!!!!
"Mr Bolton called the EU’s bluff and insisted its refusal to
re-negotiate the failed withdrawal agreement was a ploy to “make
the peasants vote again and again”. Mr Bolton said: “The fashion
in the European Union is when the people vote the wrong way from the
way the elites want to go, is to make the peasants vote again and
again until they get it right."
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1165055/brexit-news-john-bolton-
US-trade-deal-donald-trump-boris-johnson-eu
Do you remember all fuss when Obama made an essentially off-the-cuff
comment that if the UK left the EU, we couldn't count on any priority
treatment when it came to making a trade deal with the USA -and he
said we would have to take our place at the back of the queue? Can
you remind me what the Brexiteers said?
I do, and much of the fuss was over the words and the turn of phrase
that someone versed in American English would never use. I do wonder
what Camoron gave away in return for those words.
Don't you think that Obama didn't know that we use the word 'queue'? And
although 'line' is the usual word in the USA, 'queue' is not totally
unknown - especially when used as a computing term.
--
Ian
Fredxx
2019-08-13 21:23:51 UTC
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Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Fredxx
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Ian Jackson
Of course all this malarkey could be avoided if we took one step
back,  asked for a further extension of A50 - and did the obvious
thing of  asking The People if, in the light of experience of the
last three years  (and also of various troublesome world events
that  are presently  unfolding) they really REALLY want us to
continue on  the present course.  Unfortunately, loud voices
continue to scream UNDEMOCRATIC!!!!
"Mr Bolton called the EU’s bluff and insisted its refusal to
re-negotiate the failed withdrawal agreement was a ploy to “make
the  peasants vote again and again”. Mr Bolton said: “The fashion in
the  European Union is when the people vote the wrong way from the
way the  elites want to go, is to make the peasants vote again and
again until  they get it right."
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1165055/brexit-news-john-bolton-
US-trade-deal-donald-trump-boris-johnson-eu
Do you remember all fuss when Obama made an essentially off-the-cuff
comment that if the UK left the EU, we couldn't count on any priority
treatment when it came to making a trade deal with the USA -and he
said  we would have to take our place at the back of the queue? Can
you remind  me what the Brexiteers said?
I do, and much of the fuss was over the words and the turn of phrase
that someone versed in American English would never use. I do wonder
what Camoron gave away in return for those words.
Don't you think that Obama didn't know that we use the word 'queue'? And
although 'line' is the usual word in the USA, 'queue' is not totally
unknown - especially when used as a computing term.
https://news.sky.com/story/cameron-personally-requested-obamas-back-of-the-queue-brexit-warning-11423669

The damage was done with the resulting backlash. It makes whingeing
about Russian influence in elections somewhat puerile.
Norman Wells
2019-08-13 22:00:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Ian Jackson
Of course all this malarkey could be avoided if we took one step
back,  asked for a further extension of A50 - and did the obvious
thing of  asking The People if, in the light of experience of the
last three years  (and also of various troublesome world events that
are presently  unfolding) they really REALLY want us to continue on
the present course.  Unfortunately, loud voices continue to scream
UNDEMOCRATIC!!!!
"Mr Bolton called the EU’s bluff and insisted its refusal to
re-negotiate the failed withdrawal agreement was a ploy to “make the
peasants vote again and again”. Mr Bolton said: “The fashion in the
European Union is when the people vote the wrong way from the way the
elites want to go, is to make the peasants vote again and again until
they get it right."
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1165055/brexit-news-john-bolton-
US-trade-deal-donald-trump-boris-johnson-eu
Do you remember all fuss when Obama made an essentially off-the-cuff
comment that if the UK left the EU, we couldn't count on any priority
treatment when it came to making a trade deal with the USA -and he said
we would have to take our place at the back of the queue? Can you remind
me what the Brexiteers said?
Yes indeed. They said it was a load of bollocks. There isn't a queue.
Everyone interested in a trade deal can be dealt with in parallel.
Yellow
2019-08-13 22:59:12 UTC
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Permalink
On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 20:08:16 +0100 Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Of course all this malarkey could be avoided if we took one step
back, asked for a further extension of A50 - and did the obvious
thing of asking The People if, in the light of experience of the last
three years (and also of various troublesome world events that are
presently unfolding) they really REALLY want us to continue on the
present course. Unfortunately, loud voices continue to scream UNDEMOCRATIC!!!!
"Mr Bolton called the EU?s bluff and insisted its refusal to
re-negotiate the failed withdrawal agreement was a ploy to ?make the
peasants vote again and again?. Mr Bolton said: ?The fashion in the
European Union is when the people vote the wrong way from the way the
elites want to go, is to make the peasants vote again and again until
they get it right."
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1165055/brexit-news-john-bolton-
US-trade-deal-donald-trump-boris-johnson-eu
Do you remember all fuss when Obama made an essentially off-the-cuff
comment
If you truly and honestly believe that then you are an idiot.
Post by Ian Jackson
that if the UK left the EU, we couldn't count on any priority
treatment when it came to making a trade deal with the USA -and he said
we would have to take our place at the back of the queue? Can you remind
me what the Brexiteers said?
R. Mark Clayton
2019-08-14 14:16:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Controversial news story of the day - based on a ComRes opinion poll
published in the Telegraph.
So maybe 54% aren't necessarily in favour of proroguing, but they are in
favour of Brexit, and a no-deal one if that's all that's available. And
62% believe that Parliament ISN'T more in tune with public opinion than
Boris Johnson (but does that actually mean anything? It means making
assumptions about what your fellow citizens think).
https://www.markpack.org.uk/159481/dreadful-opinion-poll-reporting-by-the-daily-telegraph/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/12/boris-johnson-has-publics-support-shut-parliament-get-brexit/
Very dubious poll - of course the last thing Brextremists want now is a real vote - they know they would lose.
Norman Wells
2019-08-14 15:34:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by The Todal
Controversial news story of the day - based on a ComRes opinion poll
published in the Telegraph.
So maybe 54% aren't necessarily in favour of proroguing, but they are in
favour of Brexit, and a no-deal one if that's all that's available. And
62% believe that Parliament ISN'T more in tune with public opinion than
Boris Johnson (but does that actually mean anything? It means making
assumptions about what your fellow citizens think).
https://www.markpack.org.uk/159481/dreadful-opinion-poll-reporting-by-the-daily-telegraph/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/12/boris-johnson-has-publics-support-shut-parliament-get-brexit/
Very dubious poll - of course the last thing Brextremists want now is a real vote - they know they would lose.
Here's the view of the USA's National Security Advisor:

"Mr Bolton called the EU’s bluff and insisted its refusal to
re-negotiate the failed withdrawal agreement was a ploy to “make the
peasants vote again and again”. Mr Bolton said: “The fashion in the
European Union is when the people vote the wrong way from the way the
elites want to go, is to make the peasants vote again and again until
they get it right."

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1165055/brexit-news-john-bolton-US-trade-deal-donald-trump-boris-johnson-eu
pensive hamster
2019-08-14 16:12:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by The Todal
Controversial news story of the day - based on a ComRes opinion poll
published in the Telegraph.
So maybe 54% aren't necessarily in favour of proroguing, but they are in
favour of Brexit, and a no-deal one if that's all that's available. And
62% believe that Parliament ISN'T more in tune with public opinion than
Boris Johnson (but does that actually mean anything? It means making
assumptions about what your fellow citizens think).
https://www.markpack.org.uk/159481/dreadful-opinion-poll-reporting-by-the-daily-telegraph/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/12/boris-johnson-has-publics-support-shut-parliament-get-brexit/
Very dubious poll - of course the last thing Brextremists want now is a real vote - they know they would lose.
"Mr Bolton called the EU’s bluff and insisted its refusal to
re-negotiate the failed withdrawal agreement was a ploy to “make the
peasants vote again and again”. Mr Bolton said: “The fashion in the
European Union is when the people vote the wrong way from the way the
elites want to go, is to make the peasants vote again and again until
they get it right."
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1165055/brexit-news-john-bolton-US-trade-deal-donald-trump-boris-johnson-eu
If the USA's National Security Advisor is right, then we are doomed.
The elite always wins, that's why they are the elite.

Name me one successful peasant's revolt. The Russian revolution,
for example, simply replaced one elite with another, rather more
vicious elite.

'Hurrah for revolution and more cannon-shot!
A beggar upon horseback lashes a beggar on foot.
Hurrah for revolution and cannon come again!
The beggars have changed places, but the lash goes on.'
R. Mark Clayton
2019-08-15 11:39:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by The Todal
Controversial news story of the day - based on a ComRes opinion poll
published in the Telegraph.
So maybe 54% aren't necessarily in favour of proroguing, but they are in
favour of Brexit, and a no-deal one if that's all that's available. And
62% believe that Parliament ISN'T more in tune with public opinion than
Boris Johnson (but does that actually mean anything? It means making
assumptions about what your fellow citizens think).
https://www.markpack.org.uk/159481/dreadful-opinion-poll-reporting-by-the-daily-telegraph/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/12/boris-johnson-has-publics-support-shut-parliament-get-brexit/
Very dubious poll - of course the last thing Brextremists want now is a real vote - they know they would lose.
"Mr Bolton called the EU’s bluff and insisted its refusal to
re-negotiate the failed withdrawal agreement was a ploy to “make the
peasants vote again and again”. Mr Bolton said: “The fashion in the
European Union is when the people vote the wrong way from the way the
elites want to go, is to make the peasants vote again and again until
they get it right."
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1165055/brexit-news-john-bolton-US-trade-deal-donald-trump-boris-johnson-eu
As opposed to the Brextremist view that after the peasants have been successfully conned once, there is no need for them to ever vote again...
Ian Jackson
2019-08-15 12:17:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by The Todal
Controversial news story of the day - based on a ComRes opinion poll
published in the Telegraph.
So maybe 54% aren't necessarily in favour of proroguing, but they are in
favour of Brexit, and a no-deal one if that's all that's available. And
62% believe that Parliament ISN'T more in tune with public opinion than
Boris Johnson (but does that actually mean anything? It means making
assumptions about what your fellow citizens think).
Post by The Todal
https://www.markpack.org.uk/159481/dreadful-opinion-poll-reporting-by-the-daily-telegraph/
Post by The Todal
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/12/boris-johnson-has-publics-support-shut-parliament-get-brexit/
Very dubious poll - of course the last thing Brextremists want now
is a real vote - they know they would lose.
"Mr Bolton called the EU’s bluff and insisted its refusal to
re-negotiate the failed withdrawal agreement was a ploy to “make the
peasants vote again and again”. Mr Bolton said: “The fashion in the
European Union is when the people vote the wrong way from the way the
elites want to go, is to make the peasants vote again and again until
they get it right."
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1165055/brexit-news-john-bolton
-US-trade-deal-donald-trump-boris-johnson-eu
As opposed to the Brextremist view that after the peasants have been
successfully conned once, there is no need for them to ever vote
again...
As many Brexiteers say, "It's undemocratic to be forced to vote and vote
until we give the right answer."
--
Ian
pensive hamster
2019-08-15 16:09:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Controversial news story of the day - based on a ComRes opinion poll
published in the Telegraph.
So maybe 54% aren't necessarily in favour of proroguing, but they are in
favour of Brexit, and a no-deal one if that's all that's available. And
62% believe that Parliament ISN'T more in tune with public opinion than
Boris Johnson (but does that actually mean anything? It means making
assumptions about what your fellow citizens think).
https://www.markpack.org.uk/159481/dreadful-opinion-poll-reporting-by-the-daily-telegraph/
The above Mark Pack source says it is 44%:

=== Start Quote ===

The online version is at
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/12/boris-johnson-has-publics-support-shut-parliament-get-brexit/

and states, “The ComRes survey for The Telegraph found that 54 per cent of British adults think Parliament should be prorogued to prevent MPs stopping a no-deal Brexit.”

However, the data provided by ComRes itself is different. The data
has been published at
https://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/The-Telegraph_August-2019-Tables.pdf – Table 53.

This data shows two important differences from what the Telegraph reported:

(1) Telegraph: “54% of British adults…”, ComRes data: 44% (a minority
rather than a majority, and therefore both an error and more than a trivial
error),

(2) Telegraph: “think Parliament should be prorogued”, ComRes wording:
“Boris needs to deliver Brexit by any means, including suspending
parliament if necessary” – this is a very different wording, including both
the framing of the point (making the question about delivering Brexit
primarily) and also the use of “if necessary” is not the same as saying
something “should” happen

=== End Quote ===

Seems like the Telegraph is going in for fake news too.
Post by The Todal
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/12/boris-johnson-has-publics-support-shut-parliament-get-brexit/
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