Discussion:
Debt, what to do. (sorry, it's a long one)
(too old to reply)
I'm in trouble
2007-11-08 10:30:13 UTC
Permalink
Ok, I appreciate most answerers will want to include "pay them
back" but please try and avoid that for now.

Quite some time ago, (more than 6 months) my better half was
admitted to hospital in a critical condition having deteriorated
rapidly overnight. They remain there still and ( on the latest
review ) are expected to do so for the next 3 to 6 months. As a
side note this hospital is a 50 mile round trip from our home.

You will hopefully ( or may not ) understand that I have spent
the majority of my time there generally only returning home for a
shower etc, as it has been a very close call quite a few times
and when I have tried resuming a "normal" life have found myself
called in by the ward sister or a doctor as things have looked
bleak.

Anyway, I continued to meet our monthly commitments for the next
couple of months and then wrote to all our creditors explaining
the situation, offering to supply medical information if required
and asking for their help and understanding.

The response was very mixed, especially interesting as 5 of our
debts are within the same group. The last of our creditors, the
one I expected the most trouble with, has been great (thanks
Lloyds). Anyway back to the other 5, for the most part I have now
temporarily sorted these where everyone is reasonably happy but
my own credit card within this group have passed it over to debt
collection even though they have had the same information as
everyone else and are now looking at selling it on.

I have talked myself blue in the face trying to make them
understand the situation and am having great difficulty
understanding how I can get such a very different response from
the same organisation. I have sought advice from the CAB, CCCS
Ltd and Payplan in an attempt to find some common ground where
this creditor would be happy but all 3 organisations have said
the same thing - due to your current circumstances, make
yourselves bankrupt.

We are not frivolous youngsters that have squandered the money
and find the idea of bankruptcy abhorrent but can honestly see no
other option but, we cannot even afford the court fees for
bankruptcy and would need several months to save such a sum.

Is there any other route I can take to hold these at bay for now,
is there any way to offset the fees that are payable and finally
can a person that is currently bed bound in hospital make
themselves bankrupt without attending court ?

Many thanks for any constructive replies offered.
Robin T Cox
2007-11-08 11:21:16 UTC
Permalink
Ok, I appreciate most answerers will want to include "pay them back" but
please try and avoid that for now.
Quite some time ago, (more than 6 months) my better half was admitted to
hospital in a critical condition having deteriorated rapidly overnight.
They remain there still and ( on the latest review ) are expected to do
so for the next 3 to 6 months. As a side note this hospital is a 50 mile
round trip from our home.
You will hopefully ( or may not ) understand that I have spent the
majority of my time there generally only returning home for a shower
etc, as it has been a very close call quite a few times and when I have
tried resuming a "normal" life have found myself called in by the ward
sister or a doctor as things have looked bleak.
Anyway, I continued to meet our monthly commitments for the next couple
of months and then wrote to all our creditors explaining the situation,
offering to supply medical information if required and asking for their
help and understanding.
The response was very mixed, especially interesting as 5 of our debts
are within the same group. The last of our creditors, the one I expected
the most trouble with, has been great (thanks Lloyds). Anyway back to
the other 5, for the most part I have now temporarily sorted these where
everyone is reasonably happy but my own credit card within this group
have passed it over to debt collection even though they have had the
same information as everyone else and are now looking at selling it on.
I have talked myself blue in the face trying to make them understand the
situation and am having great difficulty understanding how I can get
such a very different response from the same organisation. I have sought
advice from the CAB, CCCS Ltd and Payplan in an attempt to find some
common ground where this creditor would be happy but all 3 organisations
have said the same thing - due to your current circumstances, make
yourselves bankrupt.
We are not frivolous youngsters that have squandered the money and find
the idea of bankruptcy abhorrent but can honestly see no other option
but, we cannot even afford the court fees for bankruptcy and would need
several months to save such a sum.
Is there any other route I can take to hold these at bay for now, is
there any way to offset the fees that are payable and finally can a
person that is currently bed bound in hospital make themselves bankrupt
without attending court ?
Many thanks for any constructive replies offered.
The following site, which primarily deals with repossession, has some
excellent advice which also applies in situations like yours:

http://www.home-repo.org/reposses/dos.htm

Have a look at the section entitled 'After they contact you and demand
cash', and note the following.

1. At the moment, you are being presented with a claim for money. Unless
either you admit that the claim is correct, or a court independently
makes a judgement establishing that you in fact owe a particular sum to a
particular person, you do not have a debt. Please be very clear in your
mind about this. Obviously, you should not admit the claim unless it is
correct, according to the strict standards of proof that a court would
apply.

2. You are entitled to receive from the claimant an exact account of the
alleged debt, including a copy of any original agreement signed by
yourself, and an itemised statement showing how the amount claimed is
calculated.

3. You are entitled to receive particulars of the information held about
you by the claimant, under the Data Protection legislation, and this will
be useful to you.

You should write to the claimant asking for this information. Usually a
modest charge, up to £10 is made.

See:

http://tinyurl.com/39cg35

4. You should not, under any circumstances, conduct negotiations with the
claimant over the phone. This will render you susceptible to further
pressure, and you will have no record, should court action take place, of
your negotiations. Inform the claimants that you will only discuss the
matter in writing.

5. The following paragraphs could be used in your letter:

<quote>
Please note that I do not wish to receive any telephone calls in respect
of this matter. I do not wish to receive callers at my home address for
any reason. I will be prepared to discuss this issue only in
correspondence or otherwise by prior written agreement.

I will regard any further approaches other than in writing as harassment
under S40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970, and any
inappropriate written contact as harassment under that Act or S1 of the
Malicious Communications Act 1988.

I am advised that your approach so far may already be considered in
breach of regulations governing debt collection practices as summarised
in the attached sheet. If necessary I will report the matter immediately
to the OFT which may have implications for both your own company and any
employees/ clients involved.

I do not admit the claimed debt without further proof, and I am unable to
make any offer of payment at present. As soon as I have full details of
the amount and can establish to my satisfaction that the claim is valid,
I will make whatever offer I can afford to resolve the matter.

Please send me a true copy of the credit agreement with <name of credit
company>. I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections
77−79), I am entitled to receive a copy of my credit agreement on request
and this should be supplied within 12 working days. I enclose a payment
of £1.00 which represents the fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act.

Non-compliance with my request is a criminal offence under the above Act
and will result in a report being submitted to the relevant statutory
authorities. As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly
documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the
CCA and therefore is a complete defence to any court claim that is
issued. Please note that under Section 189 you are obliged to supply
these documents whether you are the original creditor or not.

Please also send me an itemised statement of the amount of the claim and
the grounds for assuming the contract was still in operation.

I am also issuing a Subject Access Rights Notice granted to me by the
Data Protection Act 1998. Please forward me details of all information
you keep on me that falls within the terms of the Act. I was unable to
establish if and what charge you make for doing this but will forward the
amount due if you notify me of it.

</quote>

FYI debt collectors are subject to strict oversight by the Office of Fair
Trading, and you may also find their web site helpful.

http://tinyurl.com/2ko7zz
I'm in trouble
2007-11-09 13:42:34 UTC
Permalink
Robin T Cox wrote in message news:MiCYi.763$***@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net...
: On Thu, 08 Nov 2007 10:30:13 +0000, I'm in trouble wrote:
<Big Snip>
: Have a look at the section entitled 'After they contact you and
demand
: cash', and note the following.
<Snip>
: 4. You should not, under any circumstances, conduct
negotiations with the
: claimant over the phone. This will render you susceptible to
further
: pressure, and you will have no record, should court action take
place, of
: your negotiations. Inform the claimants that you will only
discuss the
: matter in writing.

I appreciate that is sound advice and generally I adhere to it.
If I do find the need to talk to them it is always at my
instigation and the conversation is *always* recorded.

They are unable to telephone me / catch me unawares as the only
number they have is permanently routed to an answering service.


: 5. The following paragraphs could be used in your letter:
<Snip>

I'll certainly be referring back to this if the things get worse.

: I do not admit the claimed debt without further proof, and I am
unable to
: make any offer of payment at present. As soon as I have full
details of
: the amount and can establish to my satisfaction that the claim
is valid,
: I will make whatever offer I can afford to resolve the matter.
<Snip>

I'm inclined to think this is a little pointless. There is no
doubt that the debt is mine and I have never denied it. In the
beginning I did as they all suggest and contacted them as soon as
I knew that things were not going to improve in the near future -
I would be inclined to suggest to others in this position, don't
bother.

Thanks for your reply and information Robin, I very much
appreciate it.
R D S
2007-11-08 11:45:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by I'm in trouble
Ok, I appreciate most answerers will want to include "pay them
back" but please try and avoid that for now.
Just my experience, I am far from an expert.

Pay your mortgage, and any gov't related bills like council tax etc. and
anything secured.
Loans/credit cards etc, if you can't pay them don't lose sleep worrying.
They will threaten you mercilessly but there is usually nothing to back it
up. Contact any card companies and tell them you can't pay and ask them to
stop charging you the fees for missing the monthly payments, cancel any DD's
so the bank aren't racking up default charges.
If you have any income try to get it paid into somewhere who you owe nothing
to, it's not unheard of for banks to dip into one account to pay another.
I went about 24 months without paying a penny to Alliance and Leicester, in
the end I had to contact them to arrange to make payment, I hadn't heard
from them in 6 months.

I have cleared all my old debts now, credit score is shining up nicely, hope
you manage to sort yourself out.
I'm in trouble
2007-11-09 13:42:42 UTC
Permalink
R D S wrote in message news:***@mid.individual.net...
: Pay your mortgage, and any gov't related bills like council tax
etc. and
: anything secured.

No secured credit. <Phew!>

: Loans/credit cards etc, if you can't pay them don't lose sleep
worrying.

At the risk of sounding mercenary, I don't, but only because my
mind is occupied with things that I consider more important.

Thanks.
Peter Crosland
2007-11-08 12:15:03 UTC
Permalink
Go and seen your local Citizens Advice Bureau. This sort of thing is an
everyday occurrence to them and they will be able to help.


Peter Crosland
I'm in trouble
2007-11-09 13:42:35 UTC
Permalink
Peter Crosland wrote in message news:***@corp.supernews.com...
: Go and seen your local Citizens Advice Bureau. This sort of
thing is an
: everyday occurrence to them and they will be able to help.

Did that at the outset, useful but not to the point that I would
repeat the experience if there is *any* other feasible option.

Thanks.
Maria
2007-11-08 12:57:01 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 10:30:13 -0000, "I'm in trouble"
Post by I'm in trouble
Ok, I appreciate most answerers will want to include "pay them
back" but please try and avoid that for now.
Quite some time ago, (more than 6 months) my better half was
admitted to hospital in a critical condition having deteriorated
rapidly overnight. They remain there still and ( on the latest
review ) are expected to do so for the next 3 to 6 months. As a
side note this hospital is a 50 mile round trip from our home.
You will hopefully ( or may not ) understand that I have spent
the majority of my time there generally only returning home for a
shower etc, as it has been a very close call quite a few times
and when I have tried resuming a "normal" life have found myself
called in by the ward sister or a doctor as things have looked
bleak.
Anyway, I continued to meet our monthly commitments for the next
couple of months and then wrote to all our creditors explaining
the situation, offering to supply medical information if required
and asking for their help and understanding.
The response was very mixed, especially interesting as 5 of our
debts are within the same group. The last of our creditors, the
one I expected the most trouble with, has been great (thanks
Lloyds). Anyway back to the other 5, for the most part I have now
temporarily sorted these where everyone is reasonably happy but
my own credit card within this group have passed it over to debt
collection even though they have had the same information as
everyone else and are now looking at selling it on.
I have talked myself blue in the face trying to make them
understand the situation and am having great difficulty
understanding how I can get such a very different response from
the same organisation. I have sought advice from the CAB, CCCS
Ltd and Payplan in an attempt to find some common ground where
this creditor would be happy but all 3 organisations have said
the same thing - due to your current circumstances, make
yourselves bankrupt.
We are not frivolous youngsters that have squandered the money
and find the idea of bankruptcy abhorrent but can honestly see no
other option but, we cannot even afford the court fees for
bankruptcy and would need several months to save such a sum.
Is there any other route I can take to hold these at bay for now,
is there any way to offset the fees that are payable and finally
can a person that is currently bed bound in hospital make
themselves bankrupt without attending court ?
Many thanks for any constructive replies offered.
I don't know who those companies are advising you to go bankrupt - I
would guess there is something in it for them if you do, like these
companies that arrange IVA's for you and make money from it.
If you haven't even got a court order yet, going bankrupt seems a bit
premature!

I don't know if things have changed, but courts used to be quite
helpful to debtors in genuine trouble, if they had made some effort to
mitigate their circumstances by making reasonable offers of payment
previously. If the creditor refuses, it makes them look unreasonable.
Keep copies of all correspondence and if they say they have not
received anthing, sent it again using Special Delivery so you can
prove they received it.
If the debt is one which is still acquiring interest, have you
requested that the interest be frozen?
Mike_B
2007-11-08 22:54:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maria
I don't know who those companies are advising you to go bankrupt - I
would guess there is something in it for them if you do, like these
companies that arrange IVA's for you and make money from it.
If you haven't even got a court order yet, going bankrupt seems a bit
premature!
Well I know who they are. The three he mentioned are three of the
biggest debt advice agencies in the country, 2 of which are
not-for-profit agencies and none of which would make a single penny out
of someone filing for bankruptcy. On the contrary, Payplan is a supplier
of IVA's and Debt Management Plans and would make money for themselves
only if they sold him an IVA or placed him into a debt management plan.
There is no benefit to them at all if he files for bankruptcy and even
they are advising him that it is the correct course of action for him.
If all three of them have independently assessed the OP's situation and
come to the same conclusion, you can be sure that their advice is not
premature.
--
Mike_B
Maria
2007-11-09 13:44:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike_B
Post by Maria
I don't know who those companies are advising you to go bankrupt - I
would guess there is something in it for them if you do, like these
companies that arrange IVA's for you and make money from it.
If you haven't even got a court order yet, going bankrupt seems a bit
premature!
Well I know who they are. The three he mentioned are three of the
biggest debt advice agencies in the country, 2 of which are
not-for-profit agencies and none of which would make a single penny out
of someone filing for bankruptcy. On the contrary, Payplan is a supplier
of IVA's and Debt Management Plans and would make money for themselves
only if they sold him an IVA or placed him into a debt management plan.
There is no benefit to them at all if he files for bankruptcy and even
they are advising him that it is the correct course of action for him.
If all three of them have independently assessed the OP's situation and
come to the same conclusion, you can be sure that their advice is not
premature.
Sorry , my mistake - I thought I recognised the names as the agencies
that arrange IVA's for money. They have been plaguing myself and my
friends telling us we need IVA's when we don't even have any unpaid
debts.
Mike_B
2007-11-09 14:27:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maria
Sorry , my mistake - I thought I recognised the names as the agencies
that arrange IVA's for money. They have been plaguing myself and my
friends telling us we need IVA's when we don't even have any unpaid
debts.
What a terrible waste of their time.
--
Mike_B
Maria
2007-11-09 14:29:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike_B
Post by Maria
Sorry , my mistake - I thought I recognised the names as the agencies
that arrange IVA's for money. They have been plaguing myself and my
friends telling us we need IVA's when we don't even have any unpaid
debts.
What a terrible waste of their time.
My friend is in so much debt that she has signed up for one. She
doesn't owe any arrears or anything, but is scared that she won't be
able to pay it all back.
We get two or three.of these companies a week auto-ringing our phone
with recorded messages offering IVA's.
I'm in trouble
2007-11-09 13:42:35 UTC
Permalink
Maria wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
<Snip>
: I don't know who those companies are advising you to go
bankrupt - I
: would guess there is something in it for them if you do, like
these
: companies that arrange IVA's for you and make money from it.
: If you haven't even got a court order yet, going bankrupt seems
a bit
: premature!

See the reply from Mike.

Thanks.
Mike_B
2007-11-08 13:17:20 UTC
Permalink
Is there any other route I can take to hold these at bay for now, is
there any way to offset the fees that are payable and finally can a
person that is currently bed bound in hospital make themselves bankrupt
without attending court ?
Hi,

It seems that you have already contacted 3 specialist debt advice
agencies and they have all given you the same advice, presumably in the
full knowledge of your circumstances. It seems unlikely that you will
receive better advice from newsgroup posters who know little of your
financial circumstances. Perhaps its time to stop looking for
alternatives and accept the people who know what they are talking about
are giving you good advice, regardless of how you feel about it.

Your only alternative is to continue to choose not to take that advice,
and instead to continue to receive ever increasingly threatening demands
from creditors and debt collection agencies.

As to your latter question, you would need to speak to the court. I have
known a District Judge issue a bankruptcy order in a car park because
the petitioner couldn't make it into the court, but they would have to
guide you on how far they would be prepared to go to facilitate a
petition.
--
Mike_B
Mike_B
2007-11-08 14:50:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike_B
Is there any other route I can take to hold these at bay for now, is
there any way to offset the fees that are payable and finally can a
person that is currently bed bound in hospital make themselves
bankrupt without attending court ?
Hi,
It seems that you have already contacted 3 specialist debt advice
agencies and they have all given you the same advice, presumably in the
full knowledge of your circumstances. It seems unlikely that you will
receive better advice from newsgroup posters who know little of your
financial circumstances. Perhaps its time to stop looking for
alternatives and accept the people who know what they are talking about
are giving you good advice, regardless of how you feel about it.
Your only alternative is to continue to choose not to take that advice,
and instead to continue to receive ever increasingly threatening
demands from creditors and debt collection agencies.
As to your latter question, you would need to speak to the court. I
have known a District Judge issue a bankruptcy order in a car park
because the petitioner couldn't make it into the court, but they would
have to guide you on how far they would be prepared to go to facilitate
a petition.
My apologies, I forgot to add an answer regarding the fees. Depending on
your household income, you may be able to get remission for the court
fee element. The Official Receiver's deposit would still be payable and
there are ways of raising that money. If your situation is such that you
are truly unable to raise the money yourself then there are various
charitable trusts who might pay the fees for you. As a last resort,
courts have found that if bankruptcy is your only option and there is no
other way for you to raise the money, it would be acceptable to use any
remaining available credit you might have access to in order to pay the
fees.
--
Mike_B
I'm in trouble
2007-11-09 13:42:33 UTC
Permalink
Mike_B wrote in message news:yr6XBX+***@localhosts.net...
: My apologies, I forgot to add an answer regarding the fees.
Depending on
: your household income, you may be able to get remission for the
court
: fee element. The Official Receiver's deposit would still be
payable and
: there are ways of raising that money. If your situation is such
that you
: are truly unable to raise the money yourself then there are
various
: charitable trusts who might pay the fees for you. As a last
resort,
: courts have found that if bankruptcy is your only option and
there is no
: other way for you to raise the money, it would be acceptable to
use any
: remaining available credit you might have access to in order to
pay the
: fees.

Thank you for the advice Mike, much appreciated.
Cynic
2007-11-12 13:55:09 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 10:30:13 -0000, "I'm in trouble"
Post by I'm in trouble
We are not frivolous youngsters that have squandered the money
and find the idea of bankruptcy abhorrent but can honestly see no
other option but, we cannot even afford the court fees for
bankruptcy and would need several months to save such a sum.
Do not be afraid of bankruptcy. In your circumstances you will almost
certainly find it to be a simple process that gives you a great deal
of relief. It is over in only 12 months, and has the effect of wiping
out all your debts. Sure, you will not have a fantastic credit rating
afterwards, but IIUC that will not affect you.

ISTM that it is the best way of getting rid of all the worries being
cause by your creditors, and will allow you to concentrate on the more
important aspects of your life right now.

I wish you the best of luck, and more importantly hope that your
partner recovers soon, and that things get back to a more bearable
level in the near future.

Another poster has suggested ways of overcoming the financial outlay
involved in declaring voluntary bankruptcy. There is no stigma
attached to bankruptcy these days - don't worry about it - it is
designed to help people in *eaxctly* your position.

Also don't feel shy about investigating what benefits and state help
you may be eligible for. You have paid taxes all your life that are
well in excess of most other countries in order to support a state
benefits system, and so are *entitled* to ask it to assist you in your
time of need. It's not as if you are a scrounger who is using the
system as a lazy alternative to working.
--
Cynic
I'm in trouble
2007-11-12 22:27:03 UTC
Permalink
Cynic wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 10:30:13 -0000, "I'm in trouble"
<Snip>
: Do not be afraid of bankruptcy. In your circumstances you will
almost
: certainly find it to be a simple process that gives you a great
deal
: of relief. It is over in only 12 months, and has the effect of
wiping
: out all your debts. Sure, you will not have a fantastic credit
rating
: afterwards, but IIUC that will not affect you.
<Snip>

Thanks Cynic, your advice and kind words are very much
appreciated.

Regards,
Mike_B
2007-11-13 08:45:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by I'm in trouble
: On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 10:30:13 -0000, "I'm in trouble"
<Snip>
: Do not be afraid of bankruptcy. In your circumstances you will
almost
: certainly find it to be a simple process that gives you a great
deal
: of relief. It is over in only 12 months, and has the effect of
wiping
: out all your debts. Sure, you will not have a fantastic credit
rating
: afterwards, but IIUC that will not affect you.
<Snip>
Thanks Cynic, your advice and kind words are very much
appreciated.
It could be even better than that. If you have no income nor assets to
be dealt with and the debts are straightforward, people are being
processed and discharged from bankruptcy in as little as 3-6 months
these days.
--
Mike_B
I'm in trouble
2007-11-13 22:48:09 UTC
Permalink
Mike_B wrote in message news:***@localhosts.net...
<Snip>
: It could be even better than that. If you have no income nor
assets to
: be dealt with and the debts are straightforward, people are
being
: processed and discharged from bankruptcy in as little as 3-6
months
: these days.

Thanks for the additional information Mike. I trust you will
understand when I say that it doesn't really matter what the
length of time is as we would rather not be doing it. The reality
is that I have to accept the situation for what it is, something
that was brought about by an unfortunate set of circumstances
that we could not have predicted nor planned for.

It's all very well saving for a rainy day but it doesn't help in
the slightest when the first drops turn out to be a pigging
monsoon :o(
Mike_B
2007-11-14 10:17:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by I'm in trouble
<Snip>
: It could be even better than that. If you have no income nor
assets to
: be dealt with and the debts are straightforward, people are
being
: processed and discharged from bankruptcy in as little as 3-6
months
: these days.
Thanks for the additional information Mike. I trust you will
understand when I say that it doesn't really matter what the
length of time is as we would rather not be doing it. The reality
is that I have to accept the situation for what it is, something
that was brought about by an unfortunate set of circumstances
that we could not have predicted nor planned for.
It's all very well saving for a rainy day but it doesn't help in
the slightest when the first drops turn out to be a pigging
monsoon :o(
I sympathise greatly with the position you find yourself in, and indeed
bankruptcy is something most people would rather not do if they could
avoid it. Having said that, 100,000 people declared themselves to be
insolvent last year, many through unforeseen changes of circumstances
rather than reckless spending. You are not alone and at this time, debts
need to be dealt with so that you can concentrate on more important
matters.
--
Mike_B
Cynic
2007-11-14 12:12:32 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:48:09 -0000, "I'm in trouble"
Post by I'm in trouble
Thanks for the additional information Mike. I trust you will
understand when I say that it doesn't really matter what the
length of time is as we would rather not be doing it.
Why not? The stigma is all in your mind!
Post by I'm in trouble
The reality
is that I have to accept the situation for what it is, something
that was brought about by an unfortunate set of circumstances
that we could not have predicted nor planned for.
Absolutely - and that is *exactly* the reason that the bankruptcy laws
were brought into being. Some people exploit the law to get away with
non-payment of debts that they knew full well they didn't have much of
a chance of paying, but that does not mean that *your* situation is at
all dishonest or dishonourable.
Post by I'm in trouble
It's all very well saving for a rainy day but it doesn't help in
the slightest when the first drops turn out to be a pigging
monsoon :o(
Isn't that the truth. Bankruptcy will allow you to start over with a
clean slate and so have a far better chance of bouncing back.
--
Cynic
I'm in trouble
2008-01-01 08:40:37 UTC
Permalink
I'm in trouble wrote in message news:cMOdnToSt-***@brightview.com...
<Big Snip>

Hi all and Happy New Year.

First of all, many, many thanks for your previous help and
advice, we really do appreciate it.

I have taken onboard the general consensus that bankruptcy is the
best course of action and am currently trying to raise the funds
to do this.

In the meantime I have written to the creditors again with an up
to date budget planner and stating that I am more than happy to
continue to reach a mutually acceptable agreement but that all
communication must be in writing as I could not guarantee giving
them my undivided attention during a telephone conversation. The
letters were sent recorded delivery so I know they arrived and,
funnily enough, I'm now getting more calls.

Anyway, the one "acknowledgement" has been a request for details
of our other creditors, amount and to whom. Do I have to supply
this information to them.

Also, you will recall that most of our problems are within the
same group. We are now getting mail from several offshoots
insisting that we ring them, blah blah. I have no intention of
discussing the same issue with half a dozen different departments
as whether by phone or post I consider it a waste of my time and
counter productive as there doesn't appear to be any continuity
in what they say. Is this acceptable.

Many thanks again,
Mike_B
2008-01-01 09:40:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by I'm in trouble
<Big Snip>
Hi all and Happy New Year.
First of all, many, many thanks for your previous help and
advice, we really do appreciate it.
I have taken onboard the general consensus that bankruptcy is the
best course of action and am currently trying to raise the funds
to do this.
In the meantime I have written to the creditors again with an up
to date budget planner and stating that I am more than happy to
continue to reach a mutually acceptable agreement but that all
communication must be in writing as I could not guarantee giving
them my undivided attention during a telephone conversation. The
letters were sent recorded delivery so I know they arrived and,
funnily enough, I'm now getting more calls.
Anyway, the one "acknowledgement" has been a request for details
of our other creditors, amount and to whom. Do I have to supply
this information to them.
Also, you will recall that most of our problems are within the
same group. We are now getting mail from several offshoots
insisting that we ring them, blah blah. I have no intention of
discussing the same issue with half a dozen different departments
as whether by phone or post I consider it a waste of my time and
counter productive as there doesn't appear to be any continuity
in what they say. Is this acceptable.
Many thanks again,
Debt collectors don't take a blind bit of notice of requests for contact
to be only in writing. They just want to recover as much money from you
as they can before your bankruptcy puts a stop to their actions. If you
are filing for bankruptcy then you do not have to send anything to the
creditors. Once the court has issued the bankruptcy order the official
receiver will contact each of your creditors and will deal with them
from that point on. In this situation I would likely write one letter to
each company, explaining that I have no assets, am about to petition for
bankruptcy, that I will not be corresponding with them again on the
matter either by letter or telephone other than to supply them with a
copy of the bankruptcy petition in due course, and that they will hear
after that from the Official Receiver's office.

They wont take any notice, you will still get the calls and letters but
at least you will have had the courtesy of keeping them informed and can
then safely ignore their correspondence. (Keep it, the OR will want it.)

If you are filing for bankruptcy then coming to any "mutually acceptable
agreement" at this point is a waste of your time and effort.
--
Mike_B
I'm in trouble
2008-01-02 07:53:54 UTC
Permalink
Mike_B wrote in message news:lswa$***@localhosts.net...
: Debt collectors don't take a blind bit of notice of requests
for contact
: to be only in writing. They just want to recover as much money
from you
: as they can before your bankruptcy puts a stop to their
actions. If you
: are filing for bankruptcy then you do not have to send anything
to the
: creditors.

Ok, but it is still going to be a while until we have sufficient
funds to proceed. I haven't told any of our creditors that it is
our intention to file for bankruptcy, I didn't think it would
serve any purpose.

: Once the court has issued the bankruptcy order the official
: receiver will contact each of your creditors and will deal with
them
: from that point on. In this situation I would likely write one
letter to
: each company, explaining that I have no assets, am about to
petition for
: bankruptcy, that I will not be corresponding with them again on
the
: matter either by letter or telephone other than to supply them
with a
: copy of the bankruptcy petition in due course, and that they
will hear
: after that from the Official Receiver's office.

It is likely to take me another three months to get the money
together, is it wise to divulge plans with so long to go, it
could make the intervening time very stressful for my other half
and as the serious health concerns are still ongoing this is
something I want to avoid.

: They wont take any notice, you will still get the calls and
letters but
: at least you will have had the courtesy of keeping them
informed and can
: then safely ignore their correspondence. (Keep it, the OR will
want it.)
: If you are filing for bankruptcy then coming to any "mutually
acceptable
: agreement" at this point is a waste of your time and effort.

I appreciate that but, I was looking at it as a stalling tactic
to allow me to gather the required money.

Thanks for your help Mike.
Mike_B
2008-01-02 09:04:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by I'm in trouble
Ok, but it is still going to be a while until we have sufficient
funds to proceed. I haven't told any of our creditors that it is
our intention to file for bankruptcy, I didn't think it would
serve any purpose.
It is likely to take me another three months to get the money
together, is it wise to divulge plans with so long to go, it
could make the intervening time very stressful for my other half
and as the serious health concerns are still ongoing this is
something I want to avoid.
I appreciate that but, I was looking at it as a stalling tactic
to allow me to gather the required money.
Thanks for your help Mike.
My personal feeling is that one of the big advantages to bankruptcy is
the fact that it makes the creditors realise that your situation is such
that they are not likely to recover their money and that you are not
simply ducking and diving and trying to avoid making payment that you
could in fact make.

IMO there is no reason to stall them. Be honest, tell them that you have
taken professional advice (from 3 debt advice agencies if I recall
correctly) and all have advised you to petition for bankruptcy. That
under the circumstances it would be inappropriate for you to enter into
any arrangements and in any case you need to keep all the spare money
you might have to save for the costs of the bankruptcy petition. This
would also alert them to the fact that if they take court action to
obtain a CCJ in the meantime they will be throwing good money after bad
as they wont recover anything through it.

To do otherwise would be to enter into arrangements in bad faith,
knowing full well you have no intention of keeping to them. However I
accept that this opinion is not one that is shared by some others, who
would opt to keep it quiet until the last minute, though I've yet to
hear a convincing argument for that where no assets are involved.
Entering into payment arrangements will also mean that some of the money
you could put toward your petition costs will be going to the creditors,
thus slowing down your ability to make the petition.

Yes, they will continue to ring and write in the meantime (and for a
short time afterwards) but they will do that anyway. Just remember, you
are not obliged to keep responding to their letters and you are not
obliged to enter into telephone discussions with them so it needn't be
all that stressful as you have now made the important decision and there
is nothing the creditors can do about that no matter how much they huff
and puff.
--
Mike_B
I'm in trouble
2008-01-02 15:35:52 UTC
Permalink
Mike_B wrote in message news:***@localhosts.net...
: My personal feeling is that one of the big advantages to
bankruptcy is
: the fact that it makes the creditors realise that your
situation is such
: that they are not likely to recover their money and that you
are not
: simply ducking and diving and trying to avoid making payment
that you
: could in fact make.
:
: IMO there is no reason to stall them. Be honest, tell them that
you have
: taken professional advice (from 3 debt advice agencies if I
recall
: correctly) and all have advised you to petition for bankruptcy.
That
: under the circumstances it would be inappropriate for you to
enter into
: any arrangements and in any case you need to keep all the spare
money
: you might have to save for the costs of the bankruptcy
petition. This
: would also alert them to the fact that if they take court
action to
: obtain a CCJ in the meantime they will be throwing good money
after bad
: as they wont recover anything through it.
:
: To do otherwise would be to enter into arrangements in bad
faith,
: knowing full well you have no intention of keeping to them.
However I
: accept that this opinion is not one that is shared by some
others, who
: would opt to keep it quiet until the last minute, though I've
yet to
: hear a convincing argument for that where no assets are
involved.
: Entering into payment arrangements will also mean that some of
the money
: you could put toward your petition costs will be going to the
creditors,
: thus slowing down your ability to make the petition.
:
: Yes, they will continue to ring and write in the meantime (and
for a
: short time afterwards) but they will do that anyway. Just
remember, you
: are not obliged to keep responding to their letters and you are
not
: obliged to enter into telephone discussions with them so it
needn't be
: all that stressful as you have now made the important decision
and there
: is nothing the creditors can do about that no matter how much
they huff
: and puff.

All valid points and solid advice. When I thought about it again
I realised I would be mighty miffed if I was deliberately misled
in the way I was planning.

I will write to them all at the weekend. Thank you again for
continuing to offer advice Mike, it's very kind of you.
TimB
2008-01-02 09:27:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by I'm in trouble
: Debt collectors don't take a blind bit of notice of requests
for contact
: to be only in writing. They just want to recover as much money
from you
: as they can before your bankruptcy puts a stop to their
actions. If you
: are filing for bankruptcy then you do not have to send anything
to the
: creditors.
Ok, but it is still going to be a while until we have sufficient
funds to proceed. I haven't told any of our creditors that it is
our intention to file for bankruptcy, I didn't think it would
serve any purpose.
The purpose it serves is to make them aware of two things: First, you
are not in a position to commit to a long term payment plan, and
second, chances are, they're not going to get any money from you. Do
not be afraid of letting them know this.
Post by I'm in trouble
It is likely to take me another three months to get the money
together, is it wise to divulge plans with so long to go, it
could make the intervening time very stressful for my other half
and as the serious health concerns are still ongoing this is
something I want to avoid.
It makes no difference whatsoever. If anything, it may make them
realise they're wasting their time, and get them off your back. Do not
allow them to put you in a position where you're stressed. The time to
be stressed is when you have demands coming in, no way to pay them,
and no idea what to do about it. Once you're clear in your own head
that bankruptcy is the way to go, that time has passed. You know the
letters will stop, and your creditors will be dealt with, as soon as
the bankruptcy proceedings are done with. Since you know that you're
dealing with it, and the end is in sight, there is absolutely no need
to worry about it (and in all honesty, very little point in paying
them - better to keep what funds you do have to one side, and let the
OR deal with sharing it out).

If they call you, don't even bother to answer the security questions.
Remember, the wheels turn slowly in these situations - by the time the
first ones are even thinking of taking you to court, the bankruptcy
process will be well underway, and the action will be pointless.
Worrying about it at this point is an exercise in futility.
Post by I'm in trouble
I appreciate that but, I was looking at it as a stalling tactic
to allow me to gather the required money.
To gather the money, I'd take one action only: Write to *all*
creditors, including the ones you are currently managing to pay. Tell
them you're petitioning for bankruptcy, and the OR will be in touch in
due course. Then stop paying them. The whole point of the bankruptcy
process is that you don't need to pay them anymore - an extra month or
two will make very little difference to anyone.

Personally, I wouldn't even bother writing to them, but that's just
me.
I'm in trouble
2008-01-02 15:35:55 UTC
Permalink
TimB wrote in message news:74b62250-1cb4-42b1-b03f-***@c4g2000hsg.googlegroups
.com...
: The purpose it serves is to make them aware of two things:
First, you
: are not in a position to commit to a long term payment plan,
and
: second, chances are, they're not going to get any money from
you. Do
: not be afraid of letting them know this.
:
: > It is likely to take me another three months to get the money
: > together, is it wise to divulge plans with so long to go, it
: > could make the intervening time very stressful for my other
half
: > and as the serious health concerns are still ongoing this is
: > something I want to avoid.
:
: It makes no difference whatsoever. If anything, it may make
them
: realise they're wasting their time, and get them off your back.
Do not
: allow them to put you in a position where you're stressed. The
time to
: be stressed is when you have demands coming in, no way to pay
them,
: and no idea what to do about it. Once you're clear in your own
head
: that bankruptcy is the way to go, that time has passed. You
know the
: letters will stop, and your creditors will be dealt with, as
soon as
: the bankruptcy proceedings are done with. Since you know that
you're
: dealing with it, and the end is in sight, there is absolutely
no need
: to worry about it (and in all honesty, very little point in
paying
: them - better to keep what funds you do have to one side, and
let the
: OR deal with sharing it out).
:
: If they call you, don't even bother to answer the security
questions.
: Remember, the wheels turn slowly in these situations - by the
time the
: first ones are even thinking of taking you to court, the
bankruptcy
: process will be well underway, and the action will be
pointless.
: Worrying about it at this point is an exercise in futility.
:
: > I appreciate that but, I was looking at it as a stalling
tactic
: > to allow me to gather the required money.
:
: To gather the money, I'd take one action only: Write to *all*
: creditors, including the ones you are currently managing to
pay. Tell
: them you're petitioning for bankruptcy, and the OR will be in
touch in
: due course. Then stop paying them. The whole point of the
bankruptcy
: process is that you don't need to pay them anymore - an extra
month or
: two will make very little difference to anyone.

Again, all valid points that I should have considered from the
outset. I'll set about sorting this out at the weekend.

: Personally, I wouldn't even bother writing to them, but that's
just
: me.

In different circumstances I would agree with you but I have to
give consideration to the non-financial problems we are facing
and how they will be affected.

Thanks Tim, you have been a great help.

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