Discussion:
'Vince gets more like Victor Meldrew every day': MPs attack Lib Dem leader after he branded supporters of leaving the EU 'Brexit jihadis'
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Bod
2017-08-07 09:11:51 UTC
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His outburst was immediately condemned – with critics saying Sir Vince
was guilty of 'contempt for ordinary voters'.

Tory MP Andrew Bridgen said: 'Vince gets more like Victor Meldrew every
day. He is a Brexit denier and he doesn't accept the will of the British
people which was expressed again at the last general election which was
why the Lib Dems only got 12 seats.'

'The second referendum and anti-Brexit politics of the Lib Dems failed
at the recent election. They were rejected by the British people and he
needs to accept that.'

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article-4766436/Vince-Cable-says-supporters-leaving-EU-Brexit-jihadis.html
Ian Jackson
2017-08-07 13:28:38 UTC
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Post by Bod
His outburst was immediately condemned – with critics saying Sir
Vince was guilty of 'contempt for ordinary voters'.
Tory MP Andrew Bridgen said: 'Vince gets more like Victor Meldrew every
day. He is a Brexit denier and he doesn't accept the will of the
British people which was expressed again at the last general election
which was why the Lib Dems only got 12 seats.'
Knowing that voting Liberal could/would be a wasted vote, many voted
Labour so that there was a better chance of defeating the Tories. But,
of course, there was also a lot who voted Tory because they didn't
believe Jeremy Corbyn's manifesto.
Post by Bod
'The second referendum and anti-Brexit politics of the Lib Dems failed
at the recent election. They were rejected by the British people and he
needs to accept that.'
There was no 'second referendum'. The second referendum will be
something which will really allow the Will Of The People to prevail - ie
when The People can say yea or nay to the terms of Brexit (and is the
very thing that the Brexiteers don't want us to be allowed to have).
Post by Bod
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article-4766436/Vince-Cable-says-suppo
rters-leaving-EU-Brexit-jihadis.html
--
Ian
Yellow
2017-08-07 14:11:19 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
His outburst was immediately condemned ? with critics saying Sir
Vince was guilty of 'contempt for ordinary voters'.
Tory MP Andrew Bridgen said: 'Vince gets more like Victor Meldrew every
day. He is a Brexit denier and he doesn't accept the will of the
British people which was expressed again at the last general election
which was why the Lib Dems only got 12 seats.'
Knowing that voting Liberal could/would be a wasted vote, many voted
Labour so that there was a better chance of defeating the Tories. But,
of course, there was also a lot who voted Tory because they didn't
believe Jeremy Corbyn's manifesto.
'The second referendum and anti-Brexit politics of the Lib Dems failed
at the recent election. They were rejected by the British people and he
needs to accept that.'
There was no 'second referendum'. The second referendum will be
something which will really allow the Will Of The People to prevail - ie
when The People can say yea or nay to the terms of Brexit (and is the
very thing that the Brexiteers don't want us to be allowed to have).
Tell the honest truth - how would you have felt about a second EU
referendum within 2 years of the last if remain had won?

The *honest* truth please.
Post by Ian Jackson
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article-4766436/Vince-Cable-says-suppo
rters-leaving-EU-Brexit-jihadis.html
And it does not bother you that a UK politician is comparing people with
perfectly reasonable opinions about the EU with Islamic terrorists? You
know the ones, they blow up children and behead people in the streets.

That is good with you?
Ian Jackson
2017-08-07 16:09:55 UTC
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Post by Yellow
Post by Ian Jackson
His outburst was immediately condemned ? with critics saying Sir
Vince was guilty of 'contempt for ordinary voters'.
Tory MP Andrew Bridgen said: 'Vince gets more like Victor Meldrew every
day. He is a Brexit denier and he doesn't accept the will of the
British people which was expressed again at the last general election
which was why the Lib Dems only got 12 seats.'
Knowing that voting Liberal could/would be a wasted vote, many voted
Labour so that there was a better chance of defeating the Tories. But,
of course, there was also a lot who voted Tory because they didn't
believe Jeremy Corbyn's manifesto.
'The second referendum and anti-Brexit politics of the Lib Dems failed
at the recent election. They were rejected by the British people and he
needs to accept that.'
There was no 'second referendum'. The second referendum will be
something which will really allow the Will Of The People to prevail - ie
when The People can say yea or nay to the terms of Brexit (and is the
very thing that the Brexiteers don't want us to be allowed to have).
Tell the honest truth - how would you have felt about a second EU
referendum within 2 years of the last if remain had won?
The *honest* truth please.
If there had been a growing amount of evidence that remaining was likely
to be a total disaster for the UK, and that lots of people had champed
their minds? If that was the case, I'd be clamouring for a second
referendum. [Wouldn't you?]
Post by Yellow
Post by Ian Jackson
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article-4766436/Vince-Cable-says-suppo
rters-leaving-EU-Brexit-jihadis.html
And it does not bother you that a UK politician is comparing people with
perfectly reasonable opinions about the EU with Islamic terrorists? You
know the ones, they blow up children and behead people in the streets.
You obviously don't recognise figurative language, do you. If you
described someone as being 'just a little Hitler', would you really mean
that he was both little, and a clone of Hitler? Would a less evocative
'saboteur' be more acceptable?
Post by Yellow
That is good with you?
I don't worry about such things, provide they are not over-done.

BTW, being like Victor Meldrew is generally a good thing. He can
certainly recognise a balls-up and sheer stupidity - and he objects
strongly to it. Oh would there be more like him!!
--
Ian
Yellow
2017-08-07 17:04:58 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
Post by Ian Jackson
There was no 'second referendum'. The second referendum will be
something which will really allow the Will Of The People to prevail - ie
when The People can say yea or nay to the terms of Brexit (and is the
very thing that the Brexiteers don't want us to be allowed to have).
Tell the honest truth - how would you have felt about a second EU
referendum within 2 years of the last if remain had won?
The *honest* truth please.
If there had been a growing amount of evidence that remaining was likely
to be a total disaster for the UK, and that lots of people had champed
their minds? If that was the case, I'd be clamouring for a second
referendum. [Wouldn't you?]
And if there was no such evidence, bearing in mind opinion is not
evidence - what then? How would you feel if remain had won by a few
percent and within 2 years another referendum was held?

And remember to keep those answers honest.
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Bod
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article-4766436/Vince-Cable-says-suppo
rters-leaving-EU-Brexit-jihadis.html
And it does not bother you that a UK politician is comparing people with
perfectly reasonable opinions about the EU with Islamic terrorists? You
know the ones, they blow up children and behead people in the streets.
You obviously don't recognise figurative language, do you. If you
described someone as being 'just a little Hitler', would you really mean
that he was both little, and a clone of Hitler? Would a less evocative
'saboteur' be more acceptable?
Post by Yellow
That is good with you?
I don't worry about such things, provide they are not over-done.
At what point would you declare it over-done?
Post by Ian Jackson
BTW, being like Victor Meldrew is generally a good thing. He can
certainly recognise a balls-up and sheer stupidity - and he objects
strongly to it. Oh would there be more like him!!
Indeed, like Victor Meldrew, who just moans for the sake of moaning.
Ian Jackson
2017-08-09 10:05:43 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
Post by Ian Jackson
There was no 'second referendum'. The second referendum will be
something which will really allow the Will Of The People to prevail - ie
when The People can say yea or nay to the terms of Brexit (and is the
very thing that the Brexiteers don't want us to be allowed to have).
Tell the honest truth - how would you have felt about a second EU
referendum within 2 years of the last if remain had won?
The *honest* truth please.
If there had been a growing amount of evidence that remaining was likely
to be a total disaster for the UK, and that lots of people had champed
their minds? If that was the case, I'd be clamouring for a second
referendum. [Wouldn't you?]
And if there was no such evidence, bearing in mind opinion is not
evidence - what then?
If there was no growing amount of evidence that remaining in the EU was
likely to be detrimental for the UK, why would I clamour for a second
referendum?
Post by Yellow
How would you feel if remain had won by a few
percent
I'd have been delighted!
Post by Yellow
and within 2 years another referendum was held?
If the vote had been to remain, I guess that the status quo would have
continued. There would be none of the upheaval and that is occurring at
the moment.

However, as I have said before, a close vote would have given the
government a good opportunity to apply a lever to the EU. They could
have said "Look guys, we voted to stay - but it WAS a close-run thing,
and it was despite most of our MPs backing remaining. As there is
obviously a lot of popular support to leave, it's almost certain that if
our politicians had advocated leaving, there would have been a
considerable majority to do so. With this in mind, don't you think it's
time that the EU addressed some of our concerns, with a view to making
some changes? If these are not attended to, we could well be obliged to
hold another referendum in a couple of years time - and this time we
will be recommending that we leave. And don't forget that we are not
the only country that is expressing dissatisfaction about some aspects
of the EU. We might not be the only ones that want out."

Unfortunately - and probably because of the £350M - the vote went
slightly the other way. As a result, a slim majority of voters has
committed the UK to leaving the EU - apparently without any possibility
of them (plus those who should have voted, but didn't) being able to
consider if the agreement reached is satisfactory.

Of course, there are those who might say that there is no point in this,
as it's inevitable that initially we'll have take things on trust, and
see how they pan out in the following years. Only then will we be able
to make a valued judgement as to whether Brexit has turned out to be a
good idea. Unfortunately, by then, the UK could have descended into seep
shit - and that's a risk that most remainers probably don't want us to
take.
Post by Yellow
And remember to keep those answers honest.
Anything I say IS honest. Trust me - I'm a Usenet user.
--
Ian
Norman Wells
2017-08-09 11:25:48 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
Post by Ian Jackson
There was no 'second referendum'. The second referendum will be
something which will really allow the Will Of The People to
prevail - ie
Post by Yellow
Post by Ian Jackson
when The People can say yea or nay to the terms of Brexit (and is the
very thing that the Brexiteers don't want us to be allowed to have).
Tell the honest truth - how would you have felt about a second EU
referendum within 2 years of the last if remain had won?
The *honest* truth please.
If there had been a growing amount of evidence that remaining was likely
to be a total disaster for the UK, and that lots of people had champed
their minds? If that was the case, I'd be clamouring for a second
referendum. [Wouldn't you?]
And if there was no such evidence, bearing in mind opinion is not
evidence - what then?
If there was no growing amount of evidence that remaining in the EU was
likely to be detrimental for the UK, why would I clamour for a second
referendum?
Post by Yellow
How would you feel if remain had won by a few
percent
I'd have been delighted!
Post by Yellow
and within 2 years another referendum was held?
If the vote had been to remain, I guess that the status quo would have
continued. There would be none of the upheaval and that is occurring at
the moment.
However, as I have said before, a close vote would have given the
government a good opportunity to apply a lever to the EU. They could
have said "Look guys, we voted to stay - but it WAS a close-run thing,
and it was despite most of our MPs backing remaining. As there is
obviously a lot of popular support to leave, it's almost certain that if
our politicians had advocated leaving, there would have been a
considerable majority to do so. With this in mind, don't you think it's
time that the EU addressed some of our concerns, with a view to making
some changes? If these are not attended to, we could well be obliged to
hold another referendum in a couple of years time - and this time we
will be recommending that we leave. And don't forget that we are not
the only country that is expressing dissatisfaction about some aspects
of the EU. We might not be the only ones that want out."
What a bizarre notion. The EU would then have done nothing. 'You voted
remain, on the current terms, that is what you will do. It's what you
voted for.'

There are no levers in that. In fact, it's complete disarmament.

The EU wasn't much swayed by Cameron's shuttle diplomacy before the
referendum where he applied the lever that we might leave, was it? The
truth is, it won't do anything unless forced. Its members still regard
their organisation as perfect and above reproach, despite all the
evidence to the contrary, and despite losing one of its biggest members.

A little contrition might be in order.
Yellow
2017-08-09 11:30:54 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
How would you feel if remain had won by a few
percent
I'd have been delighted!
Post by Yellow
and within 2 years another referendum was held?
If the vote had been to remain, I guess that the status quo would have
continued. There would be none of the upheaval and that is occurring at
the moment.
However, as I have said before, a close vote would have given the
government a good opportunity to apply a lever to the EU. They could
have said "Look guys, we voted to stay - but it WAS a close-run thing,
and it was despite most of our MPs backing remaining. As there is
obviously a lot of popular support to leave, it's almost certain that if
our politicians had advocated leaving, there would have been a
considerable majority to do so. With this in mind, don't you think it's
time that the EU addressed some of our concerns, with a view to making
some changes? If these are not attended to, we could well be obliged to
hold another referendum in a couple of years time - and this time we
will be recommending that we leave. And don't forget that we are not
the only country that is expressing dissatisfaction about some aspects
of the EU. We might not be the only ones that want out."
What a bizarre notion. The EU would then have done nothing. 'You voted
remain, on the current terms, that is what you will do. It's what you
voted for.'
There are no levers in that. In fact, it's complete disarmament.
I completely agree - and that is the reason why some eurosceptics were
against the referendum. They thought remain would win and then the UK
would be forever screwed over in its membership of the EU.
Yellow
2017-08-09 11:27:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
Post by Ian Jackson
There was no 'second referendum'. The second referendum will be
something which will really allow the Will Of The People to prevail - ie
when The People can say yea or nay to the terms of Brexit (and is the
very thing that the Brexiteers don't want us to be allowed to have).
Tell the honest truth - how would you have felt about a second EU
referendum within 2 years of the last if remain had won?
The *honest* truth please.
If there had been a growing amount of evidence that remaining was likely
to be a total disaster for the UK, and that lots of people had champed
their minds? If that was the case, I'd be clamouring for a second
referendum. [Wouldn't you?]
And if there was no such evidence, bearing in mind opinion is not
evidence - what then?
If there was no growing amount of evidence that remaining in the EU was
likely to be detrimental for the UK, why would I clamour for a second
referendum?
Because you want to stay in the EU.
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
How would you feel if remain had won by a few
percent
I'd have been delighted!
Post by Yellow
and within 2 years another referendum was held?
If the vote had been to remain, I guess that the status quo would have
continued. There would be none of the upheaval and that is occurring at
the moment.
However, as I have said before, a close vote would have given the
government a good opportunity to apply a lever to the EU.
You are wrong, the EU would have laughed at us because they would now be
in full knowledge that they could continue full steam ahead with closer
integration and that we would not leave.
Post by Ian Jackson
They could
have said "Look guys, we voted to stay - but it WAS a close-run thing,
Yep - you can hear those belly laughs.
Post by Ian Jackson
and it was despite most of our MPs backing remaining. As there is
obviously a lot of popular support to leave, it's almost certain that if
our politicians had advocated leaving, there would have been a
considerable majority to do so. With this in mind, don't you think it's
time that the EU addressed some of our concerns, with a view to making
some changes?
The belly laughs are getting louder.
Post by Ian Jackson
If these are not attended to, we could well be obliged to
hold another referendum in a couple of years time - and this time we
will be recommending that we leave. And don't forget that we are not
the only country that is expressing dissatisfaction about some aspects
of the EU. We might not be the only ones that want out."
The EU could now be on the floor, howling with laugher.
Post by Ian Jackson
Unfortunately - and probably because of the £350M - the vote went
slightly the other way.
Even though that was the gross sum as explained at the time (actual
being £252 million in 2016), it was right that the people of the UK had
a measure of how much money the UK sends to the EU every week.

Or are you advocating that this figure should have been hidden from the
UK public, given you are so sure it contributed to referendum result?
Post by Ian Jackson
As a result, a slim majority of voters has
committed the UK to leaving the EU - apparently without any possibility
of them (plus those who should have voted, but didn't) being able to
consider if the agreement reached is satisfactory.
As discussed previously, the trade agreement we end up with will be
forever subject to change by future administrations, here and abroad, so
I am unclear what a vote on that would achieve. Unless of course it
becomes UK policy to have referendums on all our trade agreements with
foreign powers.

Perhaps you can enlighten me on this particular point.
Post by Ian Jackson
Of course, there are those who might say that there is no point in this,
as it's inevitable that initially we'll have take things on trust, and
see how they pan out in the following years.
How would this referendum of yours work? Would there be a tick box for
each agreed item or would it be a single question covering the entire
agreement?

Would we be further asked if we wanted to stay in the EU or if we still
wanted to leave but also wanted further negotiations (more tick boxes on
what items we wished to be re-negotiated) or if we were happy to go with
WTO rules?

And while all this was going on, how would this hand together with A50
being served and our leave date of March 2019?

It is easy to say "second referendum" but what in fact would it mean in
practical terms?
Post by Ian Jackson
Only then will we be able
to make a valued judgement as to whether Brexit has turned out to be a
good idea.
You see this is were you still do not get it. It is not about the nuance
of whether or not UK citizens who live in the EU will be able to
continue to travel freely across countries or whether EU citizens in the
UK will continue to have the protection of the EU court, for example.

The reasons for staying or leaving, for most people, are much more
fundamental - as they clearly are for you. And deals can change at any
point in the future.

Leave the EU or stay in - that is the only question that can be asked,
and it has been.
Post by Ian Jackson
Unfortunately, by then, the UK could have descended into seep
shit - and that's a risk that most remainers probably don't want us to
take.
The other side of the coin is that the EU is taking the UK to a place
most UK citizens, who expressed a preference, do not want to go.

It is your perception of risk vs my perception of certainty.
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
And remember to keep those answers honest.
Anything I say IS honest. Trust me - I'm a Usenet user.
Yellow
2017-08-09 11:33:34 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by Ian Jackson
Only then will we be able
to make a valued judgement as to whether Brexit has turned out to be a
good idea.
You see this is were you still do not get it.
Who'd believe English is my first language? :-)

"You say this but you do still not get it."

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