Discussion:
Home Office is incompetent
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The Todal
2017-09-26 14:39:23 UTC
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Amber Rudd should resign. She certainly isn't fit to challenge Theresa
May for the leadership. She's a nitwit in charge of a department staffed
by inexperienced kids.

This sort of thing keeps happening:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/26/leave-uk-immediately-scientist-is-latest-victim-of-home-office-blunder

The Home Office is still sending out letters telling lawfully resident
migrants in Britain that they must leave the country a month after the
home secretary, Amber Rudd, had to apologise for “an unfortunate error”
in mistakenly telling 100 EU nationals they faced possible deportation.

The Home Office had to issue a further apology on Monday to a research
scientist who received a letter out of the blue on Friday telling him
that his driving licence was being revoked and he “should take steps to
leave the UK immediately”.

The Immigration Enforcement letter, in which his name was not even
spelled correctly, also warned him that he could face six months in
prison, forcible removal from the UK and a ban on returning to Britain
for up to 10 years if he did not leave voluntarily. It was issued by the
Croydon-based interventions and sanctions directorate of the Home Office.

Danaie said he felt offended by the letter and its self-assured tone:
“It did not leave any doubt that we have to get packing immediately.” He
said while there was a phone number to call for assistance with a
“voluntary return” there was no number to dispute the basis of the
letter. Instead he had to rely on sending an email and hoping somebody
would respond within a 10-day deadline.
R. Mark Clayton
2017-09-26 16:00:01 UTC
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On Tuesday, 26 September 2017 15:39:26 UTC+1, The Todal wrote:
> Amber Rudd should resign. She certainly isn't fit to challenge Theresa
> May for the leadership. She's a nitwit in charge of a department staffed
> by inexperienced kids.
>
> This sort of thing keeps happening:
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/26/leave-uk-immediately-scientist-is-latest-victim-of-home-office-blunder
>
> The Home Office is still sending out letters telling lawfully resident
> migrants in Britain that they must leave the country a month after the
> home secretary, Amber Rudd, had to apologise for “an unfortunate error”
> in mistakenly telling 100 EU nationals they faced possible deportation.
>
> The Home Office had to issue a further apology on Monday to a research
> scientist who received a letter out of the blue on Friday telling him
> that his driving licence was being revoked and he “should take steps to
> leave the UK immediately”.
>
> The Immigration Enforcement letter, in which his name was not even
> spelled correctly, also warned him that he could face six months in
> prison, forcible removal from the UK and a ban on returning to Britain
> for up to 10 years if he did not leave voluntarily. It was issued by the
> Croydon-based interventions and sanctions directorate of the Home Office.
>
> Danaie said he felt offended by the letter and its self-assured tone:
> “It did not leave any doubt that we have to get packing immediately.” He
> said while there was a phone number to call for assistance with a
> “voluntary return” there was no number to dispute the basis of the
> letter. Instead he had to rely on sending an email and hoping somebody
> would respond within a 10-day deadline.

Well I don't like Amber Rudd, but that the HO is staffed with bone brained jobsworths is nothing new (see my earlier post about them trying to deport a doctor because of their single character typo).

Turning this sort of ingrained culture around takes a long time, although one might wish there was some political impetus behind it.

Oddly, although a rightard, the Late David Waddington was quite enlightened in this regard sorting out a number of major miscarriages of justice while Home Secretary.
Ian Jackson
2017-09-26 18:30:39 UTC
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In message <***@mid.individual.net>, The Todal
<***@icloud.com> writes





>
>The Immigration Enforcement letter, in which his name was not even
>spelled correctly,

Even worse, there's the use of what appears to be a present tense, where
there should actually be a subjunctive. The sentence would also be
better with a "that" (although, arguably, this is optional).

"..... we are requesting the Secretary of State for Transport *revokes*
your driving licence ..... "

instead of

"..... we are requesting that the Secretary of State for Transport
revoke your driving licence ..... "

Shocking!
>
>

--
Ian
MM
2017-09-27 11:47:36 UTC
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On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 19:30:39 +0100, Ian Jackson
<***@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <***@mid.individual.net>, The Todal
><***@icloud.com> writes
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>The Immigration Enforcement letter, in which his name was not even
>>spelled correctly,
>
>Even worse, there's the use of what appears to be a present tense, where
>there should actually be a subjunctive. The sentence would also be
>better with a "that" (although, arguably, this is optional).
>
>"..... we are requesting the Secretary of State for Transport *revokes*
>your driving licence ..... "
>
>instead of
>
>"..... we are requesting that the Secretary of State for Transport
>revoke your driving licence ..... "
>
>Shocking!

Why not:

"We have requested the Secretary of State for Transport to revoke your
driving licence ..... "

The present tense is being used far too much nowadays. I avoid novels
written thus.

MM

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com
Basil Jet
2017-09-26 19:17:09 UTC
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On 2017\09\26 15:39, The Todal wrote:
> Amber Rudd should resign. She certainly isn't fit to challenge Theresa
> May for the leadership. She's a nitwit in charge of a department staffed
> by inexperienced kids.
>
> This sort of thing keeps happening:
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/26/leave-uk-immediately-scientist-is-latest-victim-of-home-office-blunder
>
>
> The Home Office is still sending out letters telling lawfully resident
> migrants in Britain that they must leave the country a month after the
> home secretary, Amber Rudd, had to apologise for “an unfortunate error”
> in mistakenly telling 100 EU nationals they faced possible deportation.
>
> The Home Office had to issue a further apology on Monday to a research
> scientist who received a letter out of the blue on Friday telling him
> that his driving licence was being revoked and he “should take steps to
> leave the UK immediately”.
>
> The Immigration Enforcement letter, in which his name was not even
> spelled correctly, also warned him that he could face six months in
> prison, forcible removal from the UK and a ban on returning to Britain
> for up to 10 years if he did not leave voluntarily. It was issued by the
> Croydon-based interventions and sanctions directorate of the Home Office.
>
> Danaie said he felt offended by the letter and its self-assured tone:
> “It did not leave any doubt that we have to get packing immediately.” He
> said while there was a phone number to call for assistance with a
> “voluntary return” there was no number to dispute the basis of the
> letter. Instead he had to rely on sending an email and hoping somebody
> would respond within a 10-day deadline.

What do these letters look like?
I'd like to mock one up and send it to Bummer Rod.
Incubus
2017-09-27 08:03:31 UTC
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On 26/09/2017 15:39, The Todal wrote:
> Amber Rudd should resign. She certainly isn't fit to challenge Theresa
> May for the leadership. She's a nitwit in charge of a department staffed
> by inexperienced kids.
>
> This sort of thing keeps happening:
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/26/leave-uk-immediately-scientist-is-latest-victim-of-home-office-blunder
>
>
> The Home Office is still sending out letters telling lawfully resident
> migrants in Britain that they must leave the country a month after the
> home secretary, Amber Rudd, had to apologise for “an unfortunate error”
> in mistakenly telling 100 EU nationals they faced possible deportation.
>
> The Home Office had to issue a further apology on Monday to a research
> scientist who received a letter out of the blue on Friday telling him
> that his driving licence was being revoked and he “should take steps to
> leave the UK immediately”.
>
> The Immigration Enforcement letter, in which his name was not even
> spelled correctly, also warned him that he could face six months in
> prison, forcible removal from the UK and a ban on returning to Britain
> for up to 10 years if he did not leave voluntarily. It was issued by the
> Croydon-based interventions and sanctions directorate of the Home Office.
>
> Danaie said he felt offended by the letter and its self-assured tone:
> “It did not leave any doubt that we have to get packing immediately.” He
> said while there was a phone number to call for assistance with a
> “voluntary return” there was no number to dispute the basis of the
> letter. Instead he had to rely on sending an email and hoping somebody
> would respond within a 10-day deadline.

The fault lies with the Civil Service, not the Home Secretary.

You really shouldn't let the Guardian do your thinking for you.
abelard
2017-09-27 08:47:34 UTC
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On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 09:03:31 +0100, Incubus <***@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On 26/09/2017 15:39, The Todal wrote:
>> Amber Rudd should resign. She certainly isn't fit to challenge Theresa
>> May for the leadership. She's a nitwit in charge of a department staffed
>> by inexperienced kids.
>>
>> This sort of thing keeps happening:
>>
>> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/26/leave-uk-immediately-scientist-is-latest-victim-of-home-office-blunder
>>
>>
>> The Home Office is still sending out letters telling lawfully resident
>> migrants in Britain that they must leave the country a month after the
>> home secretary, Amber Rudd, had to apologise for “an unfortunate error”
>> in mistakenly telling 100 EU nationals they faced possible deportation.
>>
>> The Home Office had to issue a further apology on Monday to a research
>> scientist who received a letter out of the blue on Friday telling him
>> that his driving licence was being revoked and he “should take steps to
>> leave the UK immediately”.
>>
>> The Immigration Enforcement letter, in which his name was not even
>> spelled correctly, also warned him that he could face six months in
>> prison, forcible removal from the UK and a ban on returning to Britain
>> for up to 10 years if he did not leave voluntarily. It was issued by the
>> Croydon-based interventions and sanctions directorate of the Home Office.
>>
>> Danaie said he felt offended by the letter and its self-assured tone:
>> “It did not leave any doubt that we have to get packing immediately.” He
>> said while there was a phone number to call for assistance with a
>> “voluntary return” there was no number to dispute the basis of the
>> letter. Instead he had to rely on sending an email and hoping somebody
>> would respond within a 10-day deadline.
>
>The fault lies with the Civil Service, not the Home Secretary.
>
>You really shouldn't let the Guardian do your thinking for you.

what choice does she have?

--
www.abelard.org
tim...
2017-09-27 17:47:50 UTC
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"abelard" <***@abelard.org> wrote in message
news:***@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 09:03:31 +0100, Incubus <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On 26/09/2017 15:39, The Todal wrote:
>>> Amber Rudd should resign. She certainly isn't fit to challenge Theresa
>>> May for the leadership. She's a nitwit in charge of a department staffed
>>> by inexperienced kids.
>>>
>>> This sort of thing keeps happening:
>>>
>>> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/26/leave-uk-immediately-scientist-is-latest-victim-of-home-office-blunder
>>>
>>>
>>> The Home Office is still sending out letters telling lawfully resident
>>> migrants in Britain that they must leave the country a month after the
>>> home secretary, Amber Rudd, had to apologise for "an unfortunate error"
>>> in mistakenly telling 100 EU nationals they faced possible deportation.
>>>
>>> The Home Office had to issue a further apology on Monday to a research
>>> scientist who received a letter out of the blue on Friday telling him
>>> that his driving licence was being revoked and he "should take steps to
>>> leave the UK immediately".
>>>
>>> The Immigration Enforcement letter, in which his name was not even
>>> spelled correctly, also warned him that he could face six months in
>>> prison, forcible removal from the UK and a ban on returning to Britain
>>> for up to 10 years if he did not leave voluntarily. It was issued by the
>>> Croydon-based interventions and sanctions directorate of the Home
>>> Office.
>>>
>>> Danaie said he felt offended by the letter and its self-assured tone:
>>> "It did not leave any doubt that we have to get packing immediately." He
>>> said while there was a phone number to call for assistance with a
>>> "voluntary return" there was no number to dispute the basis of the
>>> letter. Instead he had to rely on sending an email and hoping somebody
>>> would respond within a 10-day deadline.
>>
>>The fault lies with the Civil Service, not the Home Secretary.
>>
>>You really shouldn't let the Guardian do your thinking for you.
>
> what choice does she have?

other newspapers are available

tim


>
> --
> www.abelard.org
The Todal
2017-09-27 10:38:12 UTC
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Raw Message
On 27/09/2017 09:03, Incubus wrote:
> On 26/09/2017 15:39, The Todal wrote:
>> Amber Rudd should resign. She certainly isn't fit to challenge Theresa
>> May for the leadership. She's a nitwit in charge of a department
>> staffed by inexperienced kids.
>>
>> This sort of thing keeps happening:
>>
>> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/26/leave-uk-immediately-scientist-is-latest-victim-of-home-office-blunder
>>
>>
>> The Home Office is still sending out letters telling lawfully resident
>> migrants in Britain that they must leave the country a month after the
>> home secretary, Amber Rudd, had to apologise for “an unfortunate
>> error” in mistakenly telling 100 EU nationals they faced possible
>> deportation.
>>
>> The Home Office had to issue a further apology on Monday to a research
>> scientist who received a letter out of the blue on Friday telling him
>> that his driving licence was being revoked and he “should take steps
>> to leave the UK immediately”.
>>
>> The Immigration Enforcement letter, in which his name was not even
>> spelled correctly, also warned him that he could face six months in
>> prison, forcible removal from the UK and a ban on returning to Britain
>> for up to 10 years if he did not leave voluntarily. It was issued by
>> the Croydon-based interventions and sanctions directorate of the Home
>> Office.
>>
>> Danaie said he felt offended by the letter and its self-assured tone:
>> “It did not leave any doubt that we have to get packing immediately.”
>> He said while there was a phone number to call for assistance with a
>> “voluntary return” there was no number to dispute the basis of the
>> letter. Instead he had to rely on sending an email and hoping somebody
>> would respond within a 10-day deadline.
>
> The fault lies with the Civil Service, not the Home Secretary.
>
> You really shouldn't let the Guardian do your thinking for you.


In the past, ministers resigned when their departments fucked up. They
would say "the buck stops here". Not any more. Ministers insulate
themselves from the consequences of their actions. There will be
scapegoats and the minister will carry on regardless.
Joe
2017-09-27 11:23:52 UTC
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On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 11:38:12 +0100
The Todal <***@icloud.com> wrote:


>
> In the past, ministers resigned when their departments fucked up.

You have a long memory. Who was the last minister to do so?

--
Joe
The Todal
2017-09-27 11:53:12 UTC
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On 27/09/2017 12:23, Joe wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 11:38:12 +0100
> The Todal <***@icloud.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> In the past, ministers resigned when their departments fucked up.
>
> You have a long memory. Who was the last minister to do so?
>

Maybe Lord Carrington. This is a useful analysis of ministerial
responsibility for the faults of their department:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual_ministerial_responsibility
Handsome Jack
2017-09-27 15:59:01 UTC
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The Todal <***@icloud.com> posted
>On 27/09/2017 09:03, Incubus wrote:
>> On 26/09/2017 15:39, The Todal wrote:
>>> Amber Rudd should resign. She certainly isn't fit to challenge
>>>Theresa May for the leadership. She's a nitwit in charge of a
>>>department staffed by inexperienced kids.
>>>
>>> This sort of thing keeps happening:
>>>
>>>
>>>https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/26/leave-uk-immediately-s
>>>cientist-is-latest-victim-of-home-office-blunder
>>>
>>> The Home Office is still sending out letters telling lawfully
>>>resident migrants in Britain that they must leave the country a
>>>month after the home secretary, Amber Rudd, had to apologise for
>>>“an unfortunate error” in mistakenly telling 100 EU nationals
>>>they faced possible deportation.
>>>
>>> The Home Office had to issue a further apology on Monday to a
>>>research scientist who received a letter out of the blue on Friday
>>>telling him that his driving licence was being revoked and he
>>>“should take steps to leave the UK immediately”.
>>>
>>> The Immigration Enforcement letter, in which his name was not even
>>>spelled correctly, also warned him that he could face six months in
>>>prison, forcible removal from the UK and a ban on returning to
>>>Britain for up to 10 years if he did not leave voluntarily. It was
>>>issued by the Croydon-based interventions and sanctions directorate
>>>of the Home Office.
>>>
>>> Danaie said he felt offended by the letter and its self-assured
>>>tone: “It did not leave any doubt that we have to get packing
>>>immediately.” He said while there was a phone number to call for
>>>assistance with a “voluntary return” there was no number to
>>>dispute the basis of the letter. Instead he had to rely on sending
>>>an email and hoping somebody would respond within a 10-day deadline.
>> The fault lies with the Civil Service, not the Home Secretary.
>> You really shouldn't let the Guardian do your thinking for you.
>
>
>In the past, ministers resigned when their departments fucked up.

Civil servants fuck up literally *all* the time. The DWP is a byword for
incompetence. HMRC would be laughable if it didn't have the power to
seize the bank accounts of people who laughed at it.

>They would say "the buck stops here".

Only, I think, if the error is particularly grave one, or a persistent
or systemic error that should have been corrected from higher up.

>Not any more. Ministers insulate themselves from the consequences of
>their actions. There will be scapegoats and the minister will carry on
>regardless.

As has always been the case.

--
Jack
tim...
2017-09-27 17:48:45 UTC
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"The Todal" <***@icloud.com> wrote in message
news:***@mid.individual.net...
> On 27/09/2017 09:03, Incubus wrote:
>> On 26/09/2017 15:39, The Todal wrote:
>>> Amber Rudd should resign. She certainly isn't fit to challenge Theresa
>>> May for the leadership. She's a nitwit in charge of a department staffed
>>> by inexperienced kids.
>>>
>>> This sort of thing keeps happening:
>>>
>>> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/26/leave-uk-immediately-scientist-is-latest-victim-of-home-office-blunder
>>>
>>> The Home Office is still sending out letters telling lawfully resident
>>> migrants in Britain that they must leave the country a month after the
>>> home secretary, Amber Rudd, had to apologise for “an unfortunate error”
>>> in mistakenly telling 100 EU nationals they faced possible deportation.
>>>
>>> The Home Office had to issue a further apology on Monday to a research
>>> scientist who received a letter out of the blue on Friday telling him
>>> that his driving licence was being revoked and he “should take steps to
>>> leave the UK immediately”.
>>>
>>> The Immigration Enforcement letter, in which his name was not even
>>> spelled correctly, also warned him that he could face six months in
>>> prison, forcible removal from the UK and a ban on returning to Britain
>>> for up to 10 years if he did not leave voluntarily. It was issued by the
>>> Croydon-based interventions and sanctions directorate of the Home
>>> Office.
>>>
>>> Danaie said he felt offended by the letter and its self-assured tone:
>>> “It did not leave any doubt that we have to get packing immediately.” He
>>> said while there was a phone number to call for assistance with a
>>> “voluntary return” there was no number to dispute the basis of the
>>> letter. Instead he had to rely on sending an email and hoping somebody
>>> would respond within a 10-day deadline.
>>
>> The fault lies with the Civil Service, not the Home Secretary.
>>
>> You really shouldn't let the Guardian do your thinking for you.
>
>
> In the past, ministers resigned when their departments fucked up.

for strategic errors perhaps

not for minor admin cock ups

tim
R. Mark Clayton
2017-09-28 10:00:21 UTC
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On Wednesday, 27 September 2017 18:49:43 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
> "The Todal" <***@icloud.com> wrote in message
> news:***@mid.individual.net...
SNIP
> >
> >
> > In the past, ministers resigned when their departments fucked up.
>
> for strategic errors perhaps
>
> not for minor admin cock ups
>
> tim

Not responsible for trivial typos on important documents. Are responsible when deportation orders are served [on a doctor] because jobsworths won't correct their own typos that would be obvious even to a primary school child.
tim...
2017-09-29 09:08:59 UTC
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"R. Mark Clayton" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b6f62663-4053-42e4-8803-***@googlegroups.com...
> On Wednesday, 27 September 2017 18:49:43 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
>> "The Todal" <***@icloud.com> wrote in message
>> news:***@mid.individual.net...
> SNIP
>> >
>> >
>> > In the past, ministers resigned when their departments fucked up.
>>
>> for strategic errors perhaps
>>
>> not for minor admin cock ups
>>
>> tim
>
> Not responsible for trivial typos on important documents. Are responsible
> when deportation orders are served [on a doctor] because jobsworths won't
> correct their own typos that would be obvious even to a primary school
> child.

I seem to have missed your post about this (perhaps due to the Eternal
September cock up), and thus cannot evaluate the problem

tim




>
R. Mark Clayton
2017-09-29 10:13:55 UTC
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On Friday, 29 September 2017 10:09:57 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
> "R. Mark Clayton" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:b6f62663-4053-42e4-8803-***@googlegroups.com...
> > On Wednesday, 27 September 2017 18:49:43 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
> >> "The Todal" <***@icloud.com> wrote in message
> >> news:***@mid.individual.net...
> > SNIP
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > In the past, ministers resigned when their departments fucked up.
> >>
> >> for strategic errors perhaps
> >>
> >> not for minor admin cock ups
> >>
> >> tim
> >
> > Not responsible for trivial typos on important documents. Are responsible
> > when deportation orders are served [on a doctor] because jobsworths won't
> > correct their own typos that would be obvious even to a primary school
> > child.
>
> I seem to have missed your post about this (perhaps due to the Eternal
> September cock up), and thus cannot evaluate the problem
>
> tim
>
Doctor qualified from a UK medical school and was offered a job in the University's hospital. All forms etc. submitted correctly, but a numpty at the HO misspelled / mispelt her name in their records, so her visa had an extra character in her name (e.g. Miliband and Milliband), so when she returned from holiday to start work they let her in (perhaps because her previous student visa was still valid), but then served her with a seven day removal order.

Not unique - HO changed my date of birth on a walked through renewal passport, had to go to Liverpool again the following day to get it corrected >:-(
tim...
2017-09-29 17:12:42 UTC
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"R. Mark Clayton" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cd3efd52-0eab-4f5e-91f6-***@googlegroups.com...
> On Friday, 29 September 2017 10:09:57 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
>> "R. Mark Clayton" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:b6f62663-4053-42e4-8803-***@googlegroups.com...
>> > On Wednesday, 27 September 2017 18:49:43 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
>> >> "The Todal" <***@icloud.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:***@mid.individual.net...
>> > SNIP
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > In the past, ministers resigned when their departments fucked up.
>> >>
>> >> for strategic errors perhaps
>> >>
>> >> not for minor admin cock ups
>> >>
>> >> tim
>> >
>> > Not responsible for trivial typos on important documents. Are
>> > responsible
>> > when deportation orders are served [on a doctor] because jobsworths
>> > won't
>> > correct their own typos that would be obvious even to a primary school
>> > child.
>>
>> I seem to have missed your post about this (perhaps due to the Eternal
>> September cock up), and thus cannot evaluate the problem
>>
>> tim
>>
> Doctor qualified from a UK medical school and was offered a job in the
> University's hospital. All forms etc. submitted correctly, but a numpty
> at the HO misspelled / mispelt her name in their records, so her visa had
> an extra character in her name (e.g. Miliband and Milliband), so when she
> returned from holiday to start work they let her in (perhaps because her
> previous student visa was still valid), but then served her with a seven
> day removal order.

ok, so then what happened


> Not unique - HO changed my date of birth on a walked through renewal
> passport, had to go to Liverpool again the following day to get it
> corrected >:-(

staff make admin errors occur all the time - I bet you make them in your day
job (I do, or did when I had one)

you can't expect what is effectively the MD to resign because of it

tim
R. Mark Clayton
2017-09-30 18:25:04 UTC
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On Friday, 29 September 2017 18:13:41 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
> "R. Mark Clayton" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:cd3efd52-0eab-4f5e-91f6-***@googlegroups.com...
> > On Friday, 29 September 2017 10:09:57 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
> >> "R. Mark Clayton" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:b6f62663-4053-42e4-8803-***@googlegroups.com...
> >> > On Wednesday, 27 September 2017 18:49:43 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
> >> >> "The Todal" <***@icloud.com> wrote in message
> >> >> news:***@mid.individual.net...
> >> > SNIP
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > In the past, ministers resigned when their departments fucked up.
> >> >>
> >> >> for strategic errors perhaps
> >> >>
> >> >> not for minor admin cock ups
> >> >>
> >> >> tim
> >> >
> >> > Not responsible for trivial typos on important documents. Are
> >> > responsible
> >> > when deportation orders are served [on a doctor] because jobsworths
> >> > won't
> >> > correct their own typos that would be obvious even to a primary school
> >> > child.
> >>
> >> I seem to have missed your post about this (perhaps due to the Eternal
> >> September cock up), and thus cannot evaluate the problem
> >>
> >> tim
> >>
> > Doctor qualified from a UK medical school and was offered a job in the
> > University's hospital. All forms etc. submitted correctly, but a numpty
> > at the HO misspelled / mispelt her name in their records, so her visa had
> > an extra character in her name (e.g. Miliband and Milliband), so when she
> > returned from holiday to start work they let her in (perhaps because her
> > previous student visa was still valid), but then served her with a seven
> > day removal order.
>
> ok, so then what happened
>
>
> > Not unique - HO changed my date of birth on a walked through renewal
> > passport, had to go to Liverpool again the following day to get it
> > corrected >:-(
>
> staff make admin errors occur all the time - I bet you make them in your day
> job (I do, or did when I had one)
>
> you can't expect what is effectively the MD to resign because of it
>
> tim

People make mistakes all the time, but if they make an obvious mistake, one that will ruin someone's life, then I would expect them to correct it. Michael O'Leary might not be very good at running an airline, but if his planes crashed...
tim...
2017-10-01 09:24:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
"R. Mark Clayton" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3c5960ff-3b8d-4e38-8f7a-***@googlegroups.com...
> On Friday, 29 September 2017 18:13:41 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
>> "R. Mark Clayton" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:cd3efd52-0eab-4f5e-91f6-***@googlegroups.com...
>> > On Friday, 29 September 2017 10:09:57 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
>> >> "R. Mark Clayton" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:b6f62663-4053-42e4-8803-***@googlegroups.com...
>> >> > On Wednesday, 27 September 2017 18:49:43 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
>> >> >> "The Todal" <***@icloud.com> wrote in message
>> >> >> news:***@mid.individual.net...
>> >> > SNIP
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > In the past, ministers resigned when their departments fucked up.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> for strategic errors perhaps
>> >> >>
>> >> >> not for minor admin cock ups
>> >> >>
>> >> >> tim
>> >> >
>> >> > Not responsible for trivial typos on important documents. Are
>> >> > responsible
>> >> > when deportation orders are served [on a doctor] because jobsworths
>> >> > won't
>> >> > correct their own typos that would be obvious even to a primary
>> >> > school
>> >> > child.
>> >>
>> >> I seem to have missed your post about this (perhaps due to the Eternal
>> >> September cock up), and thus cannot evaluate the problem
>> >>
>> >> tim
>> >>
>> > Doctor qualified from a UK medical school and was offered a job in the
>> > University's hospital. All forms etc. submitted correctly, but a
>> > numpty
>> > at the HO misspelled / mispelt her name in their records, so her visa
>> > had
>> > an extra character in her name (e.g. Miliband and Milliband), so when
>> > she
>> > returned from holiday to start work they let her in (perhaps because
>> > her
>> > previous student visa was still valid), but then served her with a
>> > seven
>> > day removal order.
>>
>> ok, so then what happened
>>
>>
>> > Not unique - HO changed my date of birth on a walked through renewal
>> > passport, had to go to Liverpool again the following day to get it
>> > corrected >:-(
>>
>> staff make admin errors occur all the time - I bet you make them in your
>> day
>> job (I do, or did when I had one)
>>
>> you can't expect what is effectively the MD to resign because of it
>>
>> tim
>
> People make mistakes all the time, but if they make an obvious mistake,
> one that will ruin someone's life, then I would expect them to correct it.

you haven't provided any evidence that they didn't

tim
R. Mark Clayton
2017-10-01 12:30:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sunday, 1 October 2017 10:25:38 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
> "R. Mark Clayton" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message

SNIP

> >> >>
> >> > Doctor qualified from a UK medical school and was offered a job in the
> >> > University's hospital. All forms etc. submitted correctly, but a
> >> > numpty
> >> > at the HO misspelled / mispelt her name in their records, so her visa
> >> > had
> >> > an extra character in her name (e.g. Miliband and Milliband), so when
> >> > she
> >> > returned from holiday to start work they let her in (perhaps because
> >> > her
> >> > previous student visa was still valid), but then served her with a
> >> > seven
> >> > day removal order.
> >>
> >> ok, so then what happened
> >>
> >>
> >> > Not unique - HO changed my date of birth on a walked through renewal
> >> > passport, had to go to Liverpool again the following day to get it
> >> > corrected >:-(
> >>
> >> staff make admin errors occur all the time - I bet you make them in your
> >> day
> >> job (I do, or did when I had one)
> >>
> >> you can't expect what is effectively the MD to resign because of it
> >>
> >> tim
> >
> > People make mistakes all the time, but if they make an obvious mistake,
> > one that will ruin someone's life, then I would expect them to correct it.
>
> you haven't provided any evidence that they didn't

They only did when an MP intervened. That's how pig headed / stupid / useless jobsworths they are. Do you attend the HO during normal working hours or something?

>
> tim
tim...
2017-10-01 14:47:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
"R. Mark Clayton" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:90d30cdf-4ab5-4ade-a265-***@googlegroups.com...
> On Sunday, 1 October 2017 10:25:38 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
>> "R. Mark Clayton" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> SNIP
>
>> >> >>
>> >> > Doctor qualified from a UK medical school and was offered a job in
>> >> > the
>> >> > University's hospital. All forms etc. submitted correctly, but a
>> >> > numpty
>> >> > at the HO misspelled / mispelt her name in their records, so her
>> >> > visa
>> >> > had
>> >> > an extra character in her name (e.g. Miliband and Milliband), so
>> >> > when
>> >> > she
>> >> > returned from holiday to start work they let her in (perhaps because
>> >> > her
>> >> > previous student visa was still valid), but then served her with a
>> >> > seven
>> >> > day removal order.
>> >>
>> >> ok, so then what happened
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Not unique - HO changed my date of birth on a walked through renewal
>> >> > passport, had to go to Liverpool again the following day to get it
>> >> > corrected >:-(
>> >>
>> >> staff make admin errors occur all the time - I bet you make them in
>> >> your
>> >> day
>> >> job (I do, or did when I had one)
>> >>
>> >> you can't expect what is effectively the MD to resign because of it
>> >>
>> >> tim
>> >
>> > People make mistakes all the time, but if they make an obvious mistake,
>> > one that will ruin someone's life, then I would expect them to correct
>> > it.
>>
>> you haven't provided any evidence that they didn't
>
> They only did when an MP intervened. That's how pig headed / stupid /
> useless jobsworths they are. Do you attend the HO during normal working
> hours or something?

what makes you think that I go there at all?

All I need to know that they are likely to make admin mistakes is know that
they are a large organisation (or are you going to challenge how I know
that)

tim
R. Mark Clayton
2017-10-02 14:09:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sunday, 1 October 2017 15:48:11 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
> "R. Mark Clayton" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:90d30cdf-4ab5-4ade-a265-***@googlegroups.com...
> > On Sunday, 1 October 2017 10:25:38 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
> >> "R. Mark Clayton" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >
> > SNIP
> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> > Doctor qualified from a UK medical school and was offered a job in
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > University's hospital. All forms etc. submitted correctly, but a
> >> >> > numpty
> >> >> > at the HO misspelled / mispelt her name in their records, so her
> >> >> > visa
> >> >> > had
> >> >> > an extra character in her name (e.g. Miliband and Milliband), so
> >> >> > when
> >> >> > she
> >> >> > returned from holiday to start work they let her in (perhaps because
> >> >> > her
> >> >> > previous student visa was still valid), but then served her with a
> >> >> > seven
> >> >> > day removal order.
> >> >>
> >> >> ok, so then what happened
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > Not unique - HO changed my date of birth on a walked through renewal
> >> >> > passport, had to go to Liverpool again the following day to get it
> >> >> > corrected >:-(
> >> >>
> >> >> staff make admin errors occur all the time - I bet you make them in
> >> >> your
> >> >> day
> >> >> job (I do, or did when I had one)
> >> >>
> >> >> you can't expect what is effectively the MD to resign because of it
> >> >>
> >> >> tim
> >> >
> >> > People make mistakes all the time, but if they make an obvious mistake,
> >> > one that will ruin someone's life, then I would expect them to correct
> >> > it.
> >>
> >> you haven't provided any evidence that they didn't
> >
> > They only did when an MP intervened. That's how pig headed / stupid /
> > useless jobsworths they are. Do you attend the HO during normal working
> > hours or something?
>
> what makes you think that I go there at all?
>
> All I need to know that they are likely to make admin mistakes is know that
> they are a large organisation (or are you going to challenge how I know
> that)
>
> tim

round and round you go - yes there are always admin mistakes, what is different about the HO is that they won't recognise and correct even the most blatantly obvious of their own mistakes, but instead take draconian action against individuals. What you need to realise is that the culture is wrong and responsibility for that lies at the top, not the clerk who mistypes something.
Ian Jackson
2017-10-02 15:58:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In message <ed203fac-2584-4dce-a072-***@googlegroups.com>, R.
Mark Clayton <***@gmail.com> writes


>
>round and round you go - yes there are always admin mistakes, what is
>different about the HO is that they won't recognise and correct even
>the most blatantly obvious of their own mistakes, but instead take
>draconian action against individuals. What you need to realise is that
>the culture is wrong and responsibility for that lies at the top, not
>the clerk who mistypes something.

Are some of these 'mistakes' now 'deliberate'?
"Brussels investigates UK over deported EU citizens" (Guardian,
yesterday)
http://bit.ly/2yjiFRc
--
Ian
The Todal
2017-10-11 15:32:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 02/10/2017 16:58, Ian Jackson wrote:
> In message <ed203fac-2584-4dce-a072-***@googlegroups.com>, R.
> Mark Clayton <***@gmail.com> writes
>
>
>>
>> round and round you go - yes there are always admin mistakes, what is
>> different about the HO is that they won't recognise and correct even
>> the most blatantly obvious of their own mistakes, but instead take
>> draconian action against individuals.  What you need to realise is
>> that the culture is wrong and responsibility for that lies at the top,
>> not the clerk who mistypes something.
>
> Are some of these 'mistakes' now 'deliberate'?
> "Brussels investigates UK over deported EU citizens" (Guardian, yesterday)
> http://bit.ly/2yjiFRc

And the Home Office is *still* incompetent. What a bunch of cunts.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/oct/11/home-office-couple-living-legally-in-uk-criminals

A Spanish woman who has lived in the UK for 15 years has accused the
Home Office of treating her family like criminals after her American
husband and the father of her three children applied for a permanent
residency (PR) card.

In a three-year ordeal, the Home Office threatened to deport the
historian Stuart Ross three times, suggested he was lying about his
wife’s work as a Spanish language teacher and refused to accept a
judge’s verdict in a Belfast court that officials had been wrong to
refuse the 49-year-old a PR card when he first applied in 2013.

“It was really frustrating and I am still angry,” said Maria Cristina
Úbeda Tuero-O’Donnell, 41. “They treated us like criminals. We couldn’t
travel because they had our passports. I was pregnant and I couldn’t
travel on my own. I am an only child and my parents are elderly, but I
couldn’t see them. My family in Spain couldn’t understand and were
asking: ‘Why, what did you do?’”
Handsome Jack
2017-10-11 16:26:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
The Todal <***@icloud.com> posted
>On 02/10/2017 16:58, Ian Jackson wrote:
>> In message <ed203fac-2584-4dce-a072-***@googlegroups.com>,
>>R. Mark Clayton <***@gmail.com> writes
>>
>>>
>>> round and round you go - yes there are always admin mistakes, what
>>>is different about the HO is that they won't recognise and correct
>>>even the most blatantly obvious of their own mistakes, but instead
>>>take draconian action against individuals.  What you need to realise
>>>is that the culture is wrong and responsibility for that lies at the
>>>top, not the clerk who mistypes something.
>> Are some of these 'mistakes' now 'deliberate'?
>> "Brussels investigates UK over deported EU citizens" (Guardian, yesterday)
>> http://bit.ly/2yjiFRc
>
>And the Home Office is *still* incompetent. What a bunch of cunts.
>
>https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/oct/11/home-office-couple-livin
>g-legally-in-uk-criminals


The Guardian does not give a full chronology of this case, except the
date of 2-013 for the first application for permanent residency.

That was three years before the referendum, so we can assume HO's
behaviour had absolutely fuck all to do with Brexit (which FAOD was the
original reason why people here have suddenly started moaning about HO
incompetence in processing residency applications).

--
Jack
The Todal
2017-10-11 16:41:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 11/10/2017 17:26, Handsome Jack wrote:
> The Todal <***@icloud.com> posted
>> On 02/10/2017 16:58, Ian Jackson wrote:
>>> In message <ed203fac-2584-4dce-a072-***@googlegroups.com>,
>>> R.  Mark Clayton <***@gmail.com> writes
>>>
>>>>
>>>> round and round you go - yes there are always admin mistakes, what
>>>> is  different about the HO is that they won't recognise and correct
>>>> even  the most blatantly obvious of their own mistakes, but instead
>>>> take  draconian action against individuals.  What you need to
>>>> realise is  that the culture is wrong and responsibility for that
>>>> lies at the top,  not the clerk who mistypes something.
>>>  Are some of these 'mistakes' now 'deliberate'?
>>> "Brussels investigates UK over deported EU citizens" (Guardian,
>>> yesterday)
>>> http://bit.ly/2yjiFRc
>>
>> And the Home Office is *still* incompetent. What a bunch of cunts.
>>
>> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/oct/11/home-office-couple-livin
>> g-legally-in-uk-criminals
>
>
> The Guardian does not give a full chronology of this case, except the
> date of 2-013 for the first application for permanent residency.
>
> That was three years before the referendum, so we can assume HO's
> behaviour had absolutely fuck all to do with Brexit (which FAOD was the
> original reason why people here have suddenly started moaning about HO
> incompetence in processing residency applications).
>

I don't see it as a Brexit issue.

However, it has been pointed out by many in the know that the desperate
urgency to find civil servants to help with Brexit negotiations has left
the civil service desperately understaffed when carrying out its routine
duties. Blunders and incompetence can be expected in most departments as
the new recruits and the interns struggle to get to grips with the
paperwork.
tim...
2017-10-11 16:59:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
"The Todal" <***@icloud.com> wrote in message
news:***@mid.individual.net...
> On 11/10/2017 17:26, Handsome Jack wrote:
>> The Todal <***@icloud.com> posted
>>> On 02/10/2017 16:58, Ian Jackson wrote:
>>>> In message <ed203fac-2584-4dce-a072-***@googlegroups.com>, R.
>>>> Mark Clayton <***@gmail.com> writes
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> round and round you go - yes there are always admin mistakes, what is
>>>>> different about the HO is that they won't recognise and correct even
>>>>> the most blatantly obvious of their own mistakes, but instead take
>>>>> draconian action against individuals. What you need to realise is
>>>>> that the culture is wrong and responsibility for that lies at the top,
>>>>> not the clerk who mistypes something.
>>>> Are some of these 'mistakes' now 'deliberate'?
>>>> "Brussels investigates UK over deported EU citizens" (Guardian,
>>>> yesterday)
>>>> http://bit.ly/2yjiFRc
>>>
>>> And the Home Office is *still* incompetent. What a bunch of cunts.
>>>
>>> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/oct/11/home-office-couple-livin
>>> g-legally-in-uk-criminals
>>
>>
>> The Guardian does not give a full chronology of this case, except the
>> date of 2-013 for the first application for permanent residency.
>>
>> That was three years before the referendum, so we can assume HO's
>> behaviour had absolutely fuck all to do with Brexit (which FAOD was the
>> original reason why people here have suddenly started moaning about HO
>> incompetence in processing residency applications).
>>
>
> I don't see it as a Brexit issue.
>
> However, it has been pointed out by many in the know that the desperate
> urgency to find civil servants to help with Brexit negotiations has left
> the civil service desperately understaffed when carrying out its routine
> duties. Blunders and incompetence can be expected in most departments as
> the new recruits and the interns struggle to get to grips with the
> paperwork.

but it takes a certain sort of incompetence not to understand the difference
between official tax returns and private tax records

tim
Handsome Jack
2017-10-11 19:54:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
The Todal <***@icloud.com> posted
>
>However, it has been pointed out by many in the know that the desperate
>urgency to find civil servants to help with Brexit negotiations has
>left the civil service desperately understaffed when carrying out its
>routine duties. Blunders and incompetence can be expected in most
>departments as the new recruits and the interns struggle to get to
>grips with the paperwork.

Do you seriously think the people transferred to DEXEU to do
Brexit-related policy analysis were the numpties who had spent their
lives processing routine residence applications?

--
Jack
R. Mark Clayton
2017-10-12 11:16:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wednesday, 11 October 2017 17:41:21 UTC+1, The Todal wrote:
> On 11/10/2017 17:26, Handsome Jack wrote:
> > The Todal <***@icloud.com> posted
> >> On 02/10/2017 16:58, Ian Jackson wrote:
> >>> In message <ed203fac-2584-4dce-a072-***@googlegroups.com>,
> >>> R.  Mark Clayton <***@gmail.com> writes
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> round and round you go - yes there are always admin mistakes, what
> >>>> is  different about the HO is that they won't recognise and correct
> >>>> even  the most blatantly obvious of their own mistakes, but instead
> >>>> take  draconian action against individuals.  What you need to
> >>>> realise is  that the culture is wrong and responsibility for that
> >>>> lies at the top,  not the clerk who mistypes something.
> >>>  Are some of these 'mistakes' now 'deliberate'?
> >>> "Brussels investigates UK over deported EU citizens" (Guardian,
> >>> yesterday)
> >>> http://bit.ly/2yjiFRc
> >>
> >> And the Home Office is *still* incompetent. What a bunch of cunts.
> >>
> >> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/oct/11/home-office-couple-livin
> >> g-legally-in-uk-criminals
> >
> >
> > The Guardian does not give a full chronology of this case, except the
> > date of 2-013 for the first application for permanent residency.
> >
> > That was three years before the referendum, so we can assume HO's
> > behaviour had absolutely fuck all to do with Brexit (which FAOD was the
> > original reason why people here have suddenly started moaning about HO
> > incompetence in processing residency applications).
> >
>
> I don't see it as a Brexit issue.

Indeed the thread is about Home Office incompetence and bloody mindedness. If there is a hard Brexit these numpties will make things even worse.

>
> However, it has been pointed out by many in the know that the desperate
> urgency to find civil servants to help with Brexit negotiations has left
> the civil service desperately understaffed when carrying out its routine
> duties. Blunders and incompetence can be expected in most departments as
> the new recruits and the interns struggle to get to grips with the
> paperwork.
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