Discussion:
Vince Cable - You are all Racists
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Yellow
2018-03-12 14:43:31 UTC
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I thought, since Gordon Brown, the left realised that calling people
racists no longer makes them run in fear of the label but instead just
pisses them off.

So I wonder who advised Vince Cable that the way to get leavers on side,
to stop Brexit, is to call them a bunch of racists?

Way to do Vince! All you have done is make people dig in further. :-)
R. Mark Clayton
2018-03-12 15:14:15 UTC
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Post by Yellow
I thought, since Gordon Brown, the left realised that calling people
racists no longer makes them run in fear of the label but instead just
pisses them off.
So I wonder who advised Vince Cable that the way to get leavers on side,
to stop Brexit, is to call them a bunch of racists?
Way to do Vince! All you have done is make people dig in further. :-)
The message was that racists voted leave, and too many voted leave for that reason, not that all Leave voters were racist (only about half IME).

Sajid Javid has criticised Sir Vince. Tell you what Sajid - how many white faces do you see in this image (apart from Nigel Farage's light fake tan of course and a couple of press)?

Loading Image...

The poster was not illegal, but of course it was designed to appeal to [racial and religious] prejudice. Sadly it succeed - appearing just as the postal votes went out to the mainly older people who have them.



Anyway just in case you hadn't worked it out Vince's speech was not designed to appeal to xenophobic Brextremists - they won't vote Liberal in a month of Thursdays, but to non racists.


Interestingly Steve Bannon has been to France. Their National Front is changing its name and distancing itself from it Holocaust denier* founding father to make itself more electorally attractive. Bannon has told them racism is a badge garlic munching frogs [oops] sorry the French should wear with pride: -

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/12/steve-bannon-tells-france-right-wing-to-embrace-racist-tag.html



* heard him first hand
Yellow
2018-03-12 16:00:57 UTC
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On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 08:14:15 -0700 (PDT) R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
I thought, since Gordon Brown, the left realised that calling people
racists no longer makes them run in fear of the label but instead just
pisses them off.
So I wonder who advised Vince Cable that the way to get leavers on side,
to stop Brexit, is to call them a bunch of racists?
Way to do Vince! All you have done is make people dig in further. :-)
The message was that racists voted leave, and too many voted leave for that reason, not that all Leave voters were racist (only about half IME).
Where did Vince say that?


<snip>
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Anyway just in case you hadn't worked it out Vince's speech was not designed to appeal to xenophobic Brextremists - they won't vote Liberal in a month of Thursdays, but to non racists.
You mean the non-racists who he has just called out for being racist?
Ophelia
2018-03-12 16:09:10 UTC
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"Yellow" wrote in message news:***@News.Individual.NET...

On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 08:14:15 -0700 (PDT) R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
I thought, since Gordon Brown, the left realised that calling people
racists no longer makes them run in fear of the label but instead just
pisses them off.
So I wonder who advised Vince Cable that the way to get leavers on side,
to stop Brexit, is to call them a bunch of racists?
Way to do Vince! All you have done is make people dig in further. :-)
The message was that racists voted leave, and too many voted leave for
that reason, not that all Leave voters were racist (only about half IME).
Where did Vince say that?


<snip>
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Anyway just in case you hadn't worked it out Vince's speech was not
designed to appeal to xenophobic Brextremists - they won't vote Liberal in
a month of Thursdays, but to non racists.
You mean the non-racists who he has just called out for being racist?

==

They will be the ones!
R. Mark Clayton
2018-03-12 16:10:40 UTC
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Post by Yellow
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 08:14:15 -0700 (PDT) R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
I thought, since Gordon Brown, the left realised that calling people
racists no longer makes them run in fear of the label but instead just
pisses them off.
So I wonder who advised Vince Cable that the way to get leavers on side,
to stop Brexit, is to call them a bunch of racists?
Way to do Vince! All you have done is make people dig in further. :-)
The message was that racists voted leave, and too many voted leave for that reason, not that all Leave voters were racist (only about half IME).
Where did Vince say that?
"Too many were driven by a nostalgia for a world where passports were blue, faces were white, and the map was coloured imperial pink. "

from transcript.
Post by Yellow
<snip>
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Anyway just in case you hadn't worked it out Vince's speech was not designed to appeal to xenophobic Brextremists - they won't vote Liberal in a month of Thursdays, but to non racists.
You mean the non-racists who he has just called out for being racist?
Hopefully they will examine their motives for voting leave and realise they were wrong.
Yellow
2018-03-12 16:41:08 UTC
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On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 09:10:40 -0700 (PDT) R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 08:14:15 -0700 (PDT) R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
I thought, since Gordon Brown, the left realised that calling people
racists no longer makes them run in fear of the label but instead just
pisses them off.
So I wonder who advised Vince Cable that the way to get leavers on side,
to stop Brexit, is to call them a bunch of racists?
Way to do Vince! All you have done is make people dig in further. :-)
The message was that racists voted leave, and too many voted leave for that reason, not that all Leave voters were racist (only about half IME).
Where did Vince say that?
"Too many were driven by a nostalgia for a world where passports were blue, faces were white, and the map was coloured imperial pink. "
from transcript.
OK - I concede you could read it that way. But I don't think anyone but
you has.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
<snip>
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Anyway just in case you hadn't worked it out Vince's speech was not designed to appeal to xenophobic Brextremists - they won't vote Liberal in a month of Thursdays, but to non racists.
You mean the non-racists who he has just called out for being racist?
Hopefully they will examine their motives for voting leave and realise they were wrong.
Why would calling a non-racist, a racist, have that consequence of them
changing their mind on Brexit? Given they did not vote the way they did
because they want to see more white faces and long for a return of
empire and blue passports?

How does accusing them of racism move the argument of EU membership
forward?
R. Mark Clayton
2018-03-12 17:39:42 UTC
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Post by Yellow
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 09:10:40 -0700 (PDT) R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 08:14:15 -0700 (PDT) R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
I thought, since Gordon Brown, the left realised that calling people
racists no longer makes them run in fear of the label but instead just
pisses them off.
So I wonder who advised Vince Cable that the way to get leavers on side,
to stop Brexit, is to call them a bunch of racists?
Way to do Vince! All you have done is make people dig in further. :-)
The message was that racists voted leave, and too many voted leave for that reason, not that all Leave voters were racist (only about half IME).
Where did Vince say that?
"Too many were driven by a nostalgia for a world where passports were blue, faces were white, and the map was coloured imperial pink. "
from transcript.
OK - I concede you could read it that way. But I don't think anyone but
you has.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
<snip>
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Anyway just in case you hadn't worked it out Vince's speech was not designed to appeal to xenophobic Brextremists - they won't vote Liberal in a month of Thursdays, but to non racists.
You mean the non-racists who he has just called out for being racist?
Hopefully they will examine their motives for voting leave and realise they were wrong.
Why would calling a non-racist, a racist, have that consequence of them
changing their mind on Brexit? Given they did not vote the way they did
because they want to see more white faces and long for a return of
empire and blue passports?
How does accusing them of racism move the argument of EU membership
forward?
As I said racists voted leave and Vince said too many voted leave because they want to see more white faces - non racists will want to distance themselves from that.
Yellow
2018-03-12 18:35:20 UTC
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On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 10:39:42 -0700 (PDT) R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 09:10:40 -0700 (PDT) R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Anyway just in case you hadn't worked it out Vince's speech was not designed to appeal to xenophobic Brextremists - they won't vote Liberal in a month of Thursdays, but to non racists.
You mean the non-racists who he has just called out for being racist?
Hopefully they will examine their motives for voting leave and realise they were wrong.
Why would calling a non-racist, a racist, have that consequence of them
changing their mind on Brexit? Given they did not vote the way they did
because they want to see more white faces and long for a return of
empire and blue passports?
How does accusing them of racism move the argument of EU membership
forward?
As I said racists voted leave and Vince said too many voted leave because they want to see more white faces - non racists will want to distance themselves from that.
You have not answered my question so let me try again - how does
accusing non-racists of racism move the argument of EU membership
forward?

They did not vote to leave the EU because they want to see more white
faces so clearly they had other reasons - so how does shouting "racist,
racist, racist" at them address their actual reasons for voting how they
did?

How will shouting "racist, racist, racist" at them get them to change
their vote?
pamela
2018-03-12 18:50:13 UTC
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Post by Yellow
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 10:39:42 -0700 (PDT) R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 09:10:40 -0700 (PDT) R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Anyway just in case you hadn't worked it out Vince's
speech was not designed to appeal to xenophobic
Brextremists - they won't vote Liberal in a month of
Thursdays, but to non racists.
You mean the non-racists who he has just called out for
being racist?
Hopefully they will examine their motives for voting leave
and realise they were wrong.
Why would calling a non-racist, a racist, have that consequence
of them changing their mind on Brexit? Given they did not vote
the way they did because they want to see more white faces and
long for a return of empire and blue passports?
How does accusing them of racism move the argument of EU
membership forward?
As I said racists voted leave and Vince said too many voted leave
because they want to see more white faces - non racists will want
to distance themselves from that.
You have not answered my question so let me try again - how does
accusing non-racists of racism move the argument of EU membership
forward?
They did not vote to leave the EU because they want to see more
white faces so clearly they had other reasons - so how does
shouting "racist, racist, racist" at them address their actual
reasons for voting how they did?
How will shouting "racist, racist, racist" at them get them to
change their vote?
Why not re-read what Mark and Vince Cable said.

They did not say all those who voted Leave are racists. They said
racists most likely voted for Brexit. Do you need a Venn diagram?

Your logic is wonky.
Ian Jackson
2018-03-12 20:31:31 UTC
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Post by pamela
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 10:39:42 -0700 (PDT) R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 09:10:40 -0700 (PDT) R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Anyway just in case you hadn't worked it out Vince's
speech was not designed to appeal to xenophobic
Brextremists - they won't vote Liberal in a month of
Thursdays, but to non racists.
You mean the non-racists who he has just called out for being racist?
Hopefully they will examine their motives for voting leave
and realise they were wrong.
Why would calling a non-racist, a racist, have that consequence
of them changing their mind on Brexit? Given they did not vote
the way they did because they want to see more white faces and
long for a return of empire and blue passports?
How does accusing them of racism move the argument of EU
membership forward?
As I said racists voted leave and Vince said too many voted leave
because they want to see more white faces - non racists will want
to distance themselves from that.
You have not answered my question so let me try again - how does
accusing non-racists of racism move the argument of EU membership
forward?
They did not vote to leave the EU because they want to see more
white faces so clearly they had other reasons - so how does
shouting "racist, racist, racist" at them address their actual
reasons for voting how they did?
How will shouting "racist, racist, racist" at them get them to
change their vote?
Why not re-read what Mark and Vince Cable said.
They did not say all those who voted Leave are racists. They said
racists most likely voted for Brexit. Do you need a Venn diagram?
Your logic is wonky.
Indeed. You don't HAVE to be a racist (and better still, an OLD racist)
to vote Leave - but it helps.
--
Ian
pensive hamster
2018-03-12 19:50:52 UTC
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Post by Yellow
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 09:10:40 -0700 (PDT) R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Anyway just in case you hadn't worked it out Vince's speech was not designed to appeal to xenophobic Brextremists - they won't vote Liberal in a month of Thursdays, but to non racists.
You mean the non-racists who he has just called out for being racist?
Hopefully they will examine their motives for voting leave and realise they were wrong.
Why would calling a non-racist, a racist, have that consequence of them
changing their mind on Brexit? Given they did not vote the way they did
because they want to see more white faces and long for a return of
empire and blue passports?
How does accusing them of racism move the argument of EU membership
forward?
As I said racists voted leave and Vince said too many voted leave because they want to see more white faces - non racists will want to distance themselves from that.
You have not answered my question so let me try again - how does
accusing non-racists of racism
Who has accused non-racists of racism? Cite?
Post by Yellow
move the argument of EU membership
forward?
They did not vote to leave the EU because they want to see more white
faces so clearly they had other reasons - so how does shouting "racist,
racist, racist" at them address their actual reasons for voting how they
did?
How will shouting "racist, racist, racist" at them get them to change
their vote?
R. Mark Clayton
2018-03-12 21:39:48 UTC
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Post by Yellow
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 10:39:42 -0700 (PDT) R. Mark Clayton
SNIP
Post by Yellow
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As I said racists voted leave and Vince said too many voted leave because they want to see more white faces - non racists will want to distance themselves from that.
You have not answered my question so let me try again - how does
accusing non-racists of racism move the argument of EU membership
forward?
He / I didn't - the claim is racists voted overwhelming leave NOT that all leave voters were racists. About 2:1, so my initial estimate was a little high.
Post by Yellow
They did not vote to leave the EU because they want to see more white
faces so clearly they had other reasons - so how does shouting "racist,
racist, racist" at them address their actual reasons for voting how they
did?
It doesn't, it highlights one of the reasons they shouldn't have nor support leaving in future.

People might vote for free beer, until they saw how much the tax on everything else would have to go up. Similarly people voted for £358M per week for the NHS and other dishonest claims.
Post by Yellow
How will shouting "racist, racist, racist" at them get them to change
their vote?
They won't want to identify with the heavily racist component of the leave campaign, and perpetuated by the hard Brextremists now - control our own borders, stop Poles stealing our jobs etc. etc.
Yellow
2018-03-13 00:23:36 UTC
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On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 14:39:48 -0700 (PDT) R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
How will shouting "racist, racist, racist" at them get them to change
their vote?
They won't want to identify with the heavily racist component of the leave campaign, and perpetuated by the hard Brextremists now - control our own borders, stop Poles stealing our jobs etc. etc.
Yes, I get that the idea is to tar everyone who voted Brexit with the
same brush of being a racist - we all do.

But I do not get is, given that game no longer works and has not for
some time, why it is being played anyway. That is the puzzle.

And I read Vince has now been reported to the police - for hate speech.
pensive hamster
2018-03-13 18:33:23 UTC
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Post by Yellow
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
How will shouting "racist, racist, racist" at them get them to change
their vote?
They won't want to identify with the heavily racist component of the leave campaign, and perpetuated by the hard Brextremists now - control our own borders, stop Poles stealing our jobs etc. etc.
Yes, I get that the idea is to tar everyone who voted Brexit with the
same brush of being a racist - we all do.
Where do you (or "we all") get that idea from, it seems like your
spin.

As I understand it, the idea is that some Brexit voters are racist,
to varying degrees, and that racist element might have been enough
to swing the result, given that Leave only got approx 4% more of the
total vote than Remain.

Farage certainly seemed to deliberately appeal to racism and
xenophobia:

http://static1.uk.businessinsider.com/image/576416d391058424008c9cf2/nigel-farages-new-brexit-poster-was-reported-to-police-over-claims-it-incites-racial-hatred.jpg
Post by Yellow
But I do not get is, given that game no longer works and has not for
some time, why it is being played anyway. That is the puzzle.
And I read Vince has now been reported to the police - for hate speech.
Yeah, by UKIP member David Kurten.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/930790/brexit-vince-cable-speech-european-union-police-david-kurten
tim...
2018-03-13 19:18:51 UTC
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Post by pensive hamster
Post by Yellow
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
How will shouting "racist, racist, racist" at them get them to change
their vote?
They won't want to identify with the heavily racist component of the
leave campaign, and perpetuated by the hard Brextremists now - control
our own borders, stop Poles stealing our jobs etc. etc.
Yes, I get that the idea is to tar everyone who voted Brexit with the
same brush of being a racist - we all do.
Where do you (or "we all") get that idea from, it seems like your
spin.
As I understand it, the idea is that some Brexit voters are racist,
to varying degrees, and that racist element might have been enough
to swing the result, given that Leave only got approx 4% more of the
total vote than Remain.
If it's one's position that it was the 4% swing vote that are "racist" then
it is incumbent on one to make that clear in your speech

Vince did not

"... But 70% of over 65s voted for Brexit. Too many were driven by a
nostalgia for a world where passports were blue, faces were white, and the
map was coloured imperial pink."

tim
pensive hamster
2018-03-13 19:53:18 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Yellow
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
How will shouting "racist, racist, racist" at them get them to change
their vote?
They won't want to identify with the heavily racist component of the
leave campaign, and perpetuated by the hard Brextremists now - control
our own borders, stop Poles stealing our jobs etc. etc.
Yes, I get that the idea is to tar everyone who voted Brexit with the
same brush of being a racist - we all do.
Where do you (or "we all") get that idea from, it seems like your
spin.
As I understand it, the idea is that some Brexit voters are racist,
to varying degrees, and that racist element might have been enough
to swing the result, given that Leave only got approx 4% more of the
total vote than Remain.
If it's one's position that it was the 4% swing vote that are "racist" then
it is incumbent on one to make that clear in your speech
Vince did not
"... But 70% of over 65s voted for Brexit. Too many were driven by a
nostalgia for a world where passports were blue, faces were white, and the
map was coloured imperial pink."
It doesn't seem to me to be solely Vince Cable's position,
more a general idea or concern, that some Brexit voters are
racist to some degree, as evidenced by what various UKIP
members (or their girlfriends) have said, by the reported rise
in hate crimes after the Brexit vote, by the Farage poster, etc.

Cable was partly alluding to this, without being too strong or
specific on it, but I would imagine he was primarily trying to
appeal to younger voters, or at least to the under 65s. The
ones not so driven by nostalgia.
tim...
2018-03-14 09:07:13 UTC
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Post by pensive hamster
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Yellow
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
How will shouting "racist, racist, racist" at them get them to change
their vote?
They won't want to identify with the heavily racist component of the
leave campaign, and perpetuated by the hard Brextremists now - control
our own borders, stop Poles stealing our jobs etc. etc.
Yes, I get that the idea is to tar everyone who voted Brexit with the
same brush of being a racist - we all do.
Where do you (or "we all") get that idea from, it seems like your
spin.
As I understand it, the idea is that some Brexit voters are racist,
to varying degrees, and that racist element might have been enough
to swing the result, given that Leave only got approx 4% more of the
total vote than Remain.
If it's one's position that it was the 4% swing vote that are "racist" then
it is incumbent on one to make that clear in your speech
Vince did not
"... But 70% of over 65s voted for Brexit. Too many were driven by a
nostalgia for a world where passports were blue, faces were white, and the
map was coloured imperial pink."
It doesn't seem to me to be solely Vince Cable's position,
how does the fact that the are other bigots who agree with him, excuse him?
Post by pensive hamster
more a general idea or concern, that some Brexit voters are
racist to some degree,
so when you insult them you make sure that you target them correctly

making sweeping generalization like Cable did is bigoted
Post by pensive hamster
as evidenced by what various UKIP
members (or their girlfriends) have said, by the reported rise
in hate crimes after the Brexit vote, by the Farage poster, etc.
Cable was partly alluding to this, without being too strong or
specific on it, but I would imagine he was primarily trying to
appeal to younger voters, or at least to the under 65s. The
ones not so driven by nostalgia.
Not an excuse

he could have easily made the nostalgic point without dressing it up as
racist

tim
Ian Jackson
2018-03-14 15:05:06 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Yellow
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
How will shouting "racist, racist, racist" at them get them
to change
their vote?
They won't want to identify with the heavily racist component of the
leave campaign, and perpetuated by the hard Brextremists now -
our own borders, stop Poles stealing our jobs etc. etc.
Yes, I get that the idea is to tar everyone who voted Brexit with the
same brush of being a racist - we all do.
Where do you (or "we all") get that idea from, it seems like your
spin.
As I understand it, the idea is that some Brexit voters are racist,
to varying degrees, and that racist element might have been enough
to swing the result, given that Leave only got approx 4% more of the
total vote than Remain.
If it's one's position that it was the 4% swing vote that are "racist" then
it is incumbent on one to make that clear in your speech
Vince did not
"... But 70% of over 65s voted for Brexit. Too many were driven by a
nostalgia for a world where passports were blue, faces were white,
and the
map was coloured imperial pink."
It doesn't seem to me to be solely Vince Cable's position,
how does the fact that the are other bigots who agree with him, excuse him?
Post by pensive hamster
more a general idea or concern, that some Brexit voters are
racist to some degree,
so when you insult them you make sure that you target them correctly
making sweeping generalization like Cable did is bigoted
Post by pensive hamster
as evidenced by what various UKIP
members (or their girlfriends) have said, by the reported rise
in hate crimes after the Brexit vote, by the Farage poster, etc.
Cable was partly alluding to this, without being too strong or
specific on it, but I would imagine he was primarily trying to
appeal to younger voters, or at least to the under 65s. The
ones not so driven by nostalgia.
Not an excuse
he could have easily made the nostalgic point without dressing it up as
racist
'Racist'? He's simply stating the bleedin' obvious.

I'm not a racist (well, I try not to be), but even I have a certain
nostalgia for what I thought were the good old days.

Although life has not been without its severe trials and tribulations,
maybe it's because I've been fortunate to do reasonably well that I am
not seeking reasons as to why my present circumstances are so
unsatisfactory that I would prefer to turn the clock back 50 or 60 years
- to the sort of time that Vince Cable is alluding to.

Yes - there ARE lots of things wrong with life today - things I'm keenly
aware of. Some seriously affect me and my family, and some seriously
affect mainly other people. However, when I weigh up what is wrong, most
of it seems to be simply because of successive bad or misguided
governments - and some of it has been imposed on us by the actions of
other countries. Some is simply just bad luck. However, I can honestly
attribute very little of it to UK's membership of the EEC/EU.
--
Ian
tim...
2018-03-14 15:31:05 UTC
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writes
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Yellow
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
How will shouting "racist, racist, racist" at them get them to change
their vote?
They won't want to identify with the heavily racist component of the
leave campaign, and perpetuated by the hard Brextremists now -
our own borders, stop Poles stealing our jobs etc. etc.
Yes, I get that the idea is to tar everyone who voted Brexit with the
same brush of being a racist - we all do.
Where do you (or "we all") get that idea from, it seems like your
spin.
As I understand it, the idea is that some Brexit voters are racist,
to varying degrees, and that racist element might have been enough
to swing the result, given that Leave only got approx 4% more of the
total vote than Remain.
If it's one's position that it was the 4% swing vote that are "racist" then
it is incumbent on one to make that clear in your speech
Vince did not
"... But 70% of over 65s voted for Brexit. Too many were driven by a
nostalgia for a world where passports were blue, faces were white, and the
map was coloured imperial pink."
It doesn't seem to me to be solely Vince Cable's position,
how does the fact that the are other bigots who agree with him, excuse him?
Post by pensive hamster
more a general idea or concern, that some Brexit voters are
racist to some degree,
so when you insult them you make sure that you target them correctly
making sweeping generalization like Cable did is bigoted
Post by pensive hamster
as evidenced by what various UKIP
members (or their girlfriends) have said, by the reported rise
in hate crimes after the Brexit vote, by the Farage poster, etc.
Cable was partly alluding to this, without being too strong or
specific on it, but I would imagine he was primarily trying to
appeal to younger voters, or at least to the under 65s. The
ones not so driven by nostalgia.
Not an excuse
he could have easily made the nostalgic point without dressing it up as
racist
'Racist'? He's simply stating the bleedin' obvious.
you didn't think that the line that I quoted was racist?

I did

and I see lots of things which others claim are racist and I think "you've
got to be kidding"
I'm not a racist (well, I try not to be), but even I have a certain
nostalgia for what I thought were the good old days.
That's not the point

it isn't the nostalgia bit that's the problem

it was his choice of words when describing it.

tim
pensive hamster
2018-03-14 17:24:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Yellow
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
How will shouting "racist, racist, racist" at them get them to change
their vote?
They won't want to identify with the heavily racist component of the
leave campaign, and perpetuated by the hard Brextremists now - control
our own borders, stop Poles stealing our jobs etc. etc.
Yes, I get that the idea is to tar everyone who voted Brexit with the
same brush of being a racist - we all do.
Where do you (or "we all") get that idea from, it seems like your
spin.
As I understand it, the idea is that some Brexit voters are racist,
to varying degrees, and that racist element might have been enough
to swing the result, given that Leave only got approx 4% more of the
total vote than Remain.
If it's one's position that it was the 4% swing vote that are "racist" then
it is incumbent on one to make that clear in your speech
Vince did not
"... But 70% of over 65s voted for Brexit. Too many were driven by a
nostalgia for a world where passports were blue, faces were white, and the
map was coloured imperial pink."
It doesn't seem to me to be solely Vince Cable's position,
how does the fact that the are other bigots who agree with him, excuse him?
That seems like a heavily loaded pseudo-question, in fact
more like an insinuation masquerading as a question. How
would you feel if someone asked:

"How does the fact that there are other bigots who agree with you,
excuse you?"

You refer to "other bigots", which implies that you you think Cable
is a bigot. Why do you think he is a bigot? Who are these other
alleged bigots who agree with him?
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
more a general idea or concern, that some Brexit voters are
racist to some degree,
so when you insult them you make sure that you target them correctly
Who has Cable insulted, and how has he managed to insult them
if he has failed to target them correctly?
Post by tim...
making sweeping generalization like Cable did is bigoted
That seems an unusual definition of bigoted. Can you quote
a sweeping generalisation that Cable has made?
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
as evidenced by what various UKIP
members (or their girlfriends) have said, by the reported rise
in hate crimes after the Brexit vote, by the Farage poster, etc.
Cable was partly alluding to this, without being too strong or
specific on it, but I would imagine he was primarily trying to
appeal to younger voters, or at least to the under 65s. The
ones not so driven by nostalgia.
Not an excuse
I agree it is not an excuse; there is nothing to excuse, so far as
I can see
Post by tim...
he could have easily made the nostalgic point without dressing it up as
racist
Isn't that what he did? It was the OP who dressed up Cable's
comments as racist, in titling this thread "Vince Cable - You are
all Racists"
tim...
2018-03-14 18:38:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by pensive hamster
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Yellow
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
How will shouting "racist, racist, racist" at them get them to change
their vote?
They won't want to identify with the heavily racist component of the
leave campaign, and perpetuated by the hard Brextremists now - control
our own borders, stop Poles stealing our jobs etc. etc.
Yes, I get that the idea is to tar everyone who voted Brexit with the
same brush of being a racist - we all do.
Where do you (or "we all") get that idea from, it seems like your
spin.
As I understand it, the idea is that some Brexit voters are racist,
to varying degrees, and that racist element might have been enough
to swing the result, given that Leave only got approx 4% more of the
total vote than Remain.
If it's one's position that it was the 4% swing vote that are "racist" then
it is incumbent on one to make that clear in your speech
Vince did not
"... But 70% of over 65s voted for Brexit. Too many were driven by a
nostalgia for a world where passports were blue, faces were white, and the
map was coloured imperial pink."
It doesn't seem to me to be solely Vince Cable's position,
how does the fact that the are other bigots who agree with him, excuse him?
That seems like a heavily loaded pseudo-question, in fact
more like an insinuation masquerading as a question. How
"How does the fact that there are other bigots who agree with you,
excuse you?"
You refer to "other bigots", which implies that you you think Cable
is a bigot. Why do you think he is a bigot? Who are these other
alleged bigots who agree with him?
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
more a general idea or concern, that some Brexit voters are
racist to some degree,
so when you insult them you make sure that you target them correctly
Who has Cable insulted, and how has he managed to insult them
He implied that all leavers (over a certain age) are racists

tim
R. Mark Clayton
2018-03-14 18:49:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Yellow
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
How will shouting "racist, racist, racist" at them get them to
change
their vote?
They won't want to identify with the heavily racist component of the
leave campaign, and perpetuated by the hard Brextremists now -
control
our own borders, stop Poles stealing our jobs etc. etc.
Yes, I get that the idea is to tar everyone who voted Brexit with the
same brush of being a racist - we all do.
Where do you (or "we all") get that idea from, it seems like your
spin.
As I understand it, the idea is that some Brexit voters are racist,
to varying degrees, and that racist element might have been enough
to swing the result, given that Leave only got approx 4% more of the
total vote than Remain.
If it's one's position that it was the 4% swing vote that are "racist" then
it is incumbent on one to make that clear in your speech
Vince did not
"... But 70% of over 65s voted for Brexit. Too many were driven by a
nostalgia for a world where passports were blue, faces were white, and the
map was coloured imperial pink."
It doesn't seem to me to be solely Vince Cable's position,
how does the fact that the are other bigots who agree with him, excuse him?
That seems like a heavily loaded pseudo-question, in fact
more like an insinuation masquerading as a question. How
"How does the fact that there are other bigots who agree with you,
excuse you?"
You refer to "other bigots", which implies that you you think Cable
is a bigot. Why do you think he is a bigot? Who are these other
alleged bigots who agree with him?
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
more a general idea or concern, that some Brexit voters are
racist to some degree,
so when you insult them you make sure that you target them correctly
Who has Cable insulted, and how has he managed to insult them
He implied that all leavers (over a certain age) are racists
tim
No he didn't, you are just pretending he did.
Ian Jackson
2018-03-14 20:28:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Yellow
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
How will shouting "racist, racist, racist" at them get them to
change
their vote?
They won't want to identify with the heavily racist component of
the
leave campaign, and perpetuated by the hard Brextremists now -
control
our own borders, stop Poles stealing our jobs etc. etc.
Yes, I get that the idea is to tar everyone who voted Brexit with the
same brush of being a racist - we all do.
Where do you (or "we all") get that idea from, it seems like your
spin.
As I understand it, the idea is that some Brexit voters are racist,
to varying degrees, and that racist element might have been enough
to swing the result, given that Leave only got approx 4% more of the
total vote than Remain.
If it's one's position that it was the 4% swing vote that are "racist" then
it is incumbent on one to make that clear in your speech
Vince did not
"... But 70% of over 65s voted for Brexit. Too many were driven by a
nostalgia for a world where passports were blue, faces were white, and the
map was coloured imperial pink."
It doesn't seem to me to be solely Vince Cable's position,
how does the fact that the are other bigots who agree with him, excuse him?
That seems like a heavily loaded pseudo-question, in fact
more like an insinuation masquerading as a question. How
"How does the fact that there are other bigots who agree with you,
excuse you?"
You refer to "other bigots", which implies that you you think Cable
is a bigot. Why do you think he is a bigot? Who are these other
alleged bigots who agree with him?
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
more a general idea or concern, that some Brexit voters are
racist to some degree,
so when you insult them you make sure that you target them correctly
Who has Cable insulted, and how has he managed to insult them
He implied that all leavers (over a certain age) are racists
tim
No he didn't, you are just pretending he did.
Some people don't seem to understand English too well - and because of
that, they are obliged to imagine or make up those bits they've missed.
They often believe that what they've misunderstood is real - and if this
happens, there's really no way you can persuade them to dis-believe it.
--
Ian
tim...
2018-03-15 08:09:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 14:39:48 -0700 (PDT) R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
How will shouting "racist, racist, racist" at them get them to
change
their vote?
They won't want to identify with the heavily racist component
of
the
leave campaign, and perpetuated by the hard Brextremists now -
control
our own borders, stop Poles stealing our jobs etc. etc.
Yes, I get that the idea is to tar everyone who voted Brexit
with
the
same brush of being a racist - we all do.
Where do you (or "we all") get that idea from, it seems like your
spin.
As I understand it, the idea is that some Brexit voters are racist,
to varying degrees, and that racist element might have been enough
to swing the result, given that Leave only got approx 4% more of the
total vote than Remain.
If it's one's position that it was the 4% swing vote that are
"racist"
then
it is incumbent on one to make that clear in your speech
Vince did not
"... But 70% of over 65s voted for Brexit. Too many were driven by a
nostalgia for a world where passports were blue, faces were white,
and
the
map was coloured imperial pink."
It doesn't seem to me to be solely Vince Cable's position,
how does the fact that the are other bigots who agree with him, excuse him?
That seems like a heavily loaded pseudo-question, in fact
more like an insinuation masquerading as a question. How
"How does the fact that there are other bigots who agree with you,
excuse you?"
You refer to "other bigots", which implies that you you think Cable
is a bigot. Why do you think he is a bigot? Who are these other
alleged bigots who agree with him?
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
more a general idea or concern, that some Brexit voters are
racist to some degree,
so when you insult them you make sure that you target them correctly
Who has Cable insulted, and how has he managed to insult them
He implied that all leavers (over a certain age) are racists
tim
No he didn't, you are just pretending he did.
As I have already pointed out,

I have seen far more benign comments made by people that others have claimed
are racist

I REALLY do interpret his comment as calling me a racist

IMHO you cannot argue with that position , it is my well founded belief that
he did so.

tim
Ian Jackson
2018-03-15 08:27:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
I REALLY do interpret his comment as calling me a racist
Then you have a poor understanding of the English language.
Post by tim...
IMHO you cannot argue with that position , it is my well founded belief
that he did so.
If I tell you it's Thursday - and your interpretation is that it's
Friday - who is to blame?
--
Ian
Yellow
2018-03-15 14:18:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 08:27:49 +0000, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by tim...
I REALLY do interpret his comment as calling me a racist
Then you have a poor understanding of the English language.
Post by tim...
IMHO you cannot argue with that position , it is my well founded belief
that he did so.
If I tell you it's Thursday - and your interpretation is that it's
Friday - who is to blame?
Hate crime is defined by how an act is perceived, not how it is
directed.
Vidcapper
2018-03-15 15:11:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Hate crime is defined by how an act is perceived, not how it is
directed.
If so, that's a flawed definition, as it allows 'professional offence
takers' to stir up unnecessary trouble.
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
tim...
2018-03-15 16:33:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Vidcapper
Post by Yellow
Hate crime is defined by how an act is perceived, not how it is
directed.
If so, that's a flawed definition,
perhaps

but it does now appear to be the accepted norm
Post by Vidcapper
as it allows 'professional offence takers' to stir up unnecessary trouble.
so it does

tim
Yellow
2018-03-15 17:31:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fredxx
Post by Vidcapper
Post by Yellow
Hate crime is defined by how an act is perceived, not how it is
directed.
If so, that's a flawed definition,
perhaps
but it does now appear to be the accepted norm
I believe it is how the law is written.
Post by Fredxx
Post by Vidcapper
as it allows 'professional offence takers' to stir up unnecessary trouble.
so it does
tim
kat
2018-03-17 21:21:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by Fredxx
Post by Vidcapper
Post by Yellow
Hate crime is defined by how an act is perceived, not how it is
directed.
If so, that's a flawed definition,
perhaps
but it does now appear to be the accepted norm
I believe it is how the law is written.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/hate-crime/what-are-hate-incidents-and-hate-crime/

The police and Crown Prosecution Service have agreed a common definition of hate
incidents.

They say something is a hate incident if the victim or anyone else think it was
motivated by hostility or prejudice etc.

Admittedly one of the things upon which it can be based is not being an elderly
brexiteer. But the principle, surely, still applies. Vince Cable could
certainly be said to be motivated by hostility towards a particular group of people!
--
kat
Post by Yellow
^..^<
pensive hamster
2018-03-17 22:54:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by kat
Post by Yellow
Post by Fredxx
Post by Vidcapper
Post by Yellow
Hate crime is defined by how an act is perceived, not how it is
directed.
If so, that's a flawed definition,
perhaps
but it does now appear to be the accepted norm
I believe it is how the law is written.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/hate-crime/what-are-hate-incidents-and-hate-crime/
The police and Crown Prosecution Service have agreed a common definition of hate
incidents.
They say something is a hate incident if the victim or anyone else think it was
motivated by hostility or prejudice etc.
Admittedly one of the things upon which it can be based is not being an elderly
brexiteer. But the principle, surely, still applies. Vince Cable could
certainly be said to be motivated by hostility towards a particular group of people!
So if somebody uses the term "Remoaner", is that a hate incident?

Such usage seems to be motivated by hostility towards people who
think Brexit may not be a good idea.

Sauce for the goose, etc.
kat
2018-03-18 00:17:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by pensive hamster
Post by kat
Post by Yellow
Post by Fredxx
Post by Vidcapper
Post by Yellow
Hate crime is defined by how an act is perceived, not how it is
directed.
If so, that's a flawed definition,
perhaps
but it does now appear to be the accepted norm
I believe it is how the law is written.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/hate-crime/what-are-hate-incidents-and-hate-crime/
The police and Crown Prosecution Service have agreed a common definition of hate
incidents.
They say something is a hate incident if the victim or anyone else think it was
motivated by hostility or prejudice etc.
Admittedly one of the things upon which it can be based is not being an elderly
brexiteer. But the principle, surely, still applies. Vince Cable could
certainly be said to be motivated by hostility towards a particular group of people!
So if somebody uses the term "Remoaner", is that a hate incident?
It's a description of certain people, rather like "brexiteer". Surely it's what
one says about them, or does to them that becomes the incident.
Post by pensive hamster
Such usage seems to be motivated by hostility towards people who
think Brexit may not be a good idea.
Sauce for the goose, etc.
Not really - I have been away and missed Mr Cable's actual tirade, but I gather
he suggested certain motives which caused a certain section of brexit voters to
vote that way were less than honourable. One can call people who whinge about
the result remoaners without implying their motives for wishing to remain in the
EU are less than honourable, just as Mr Cable didn't need to suggest what he did.
--
kat
Post by pensive hamster
^..^<
Vidcapper
2018-03-18 07:45:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by kat
Not really - I have been away and missed Mr Cable's actual tirade, but I
gather he suggested certain motives which caused a certain section of
brexit voters to vote that way were less than honourable. One can call
people who whinge about the result remoaners without implying their
motives for wishing to remain in the EU are less than honourable, just
as Mr Cable didn't need to suggest what he did.
Surely people should vote for what they believe in, whatever the
underlying motivations?
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
Ian Jackson
2018-03-18 08:08:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Vidcapper
Surely people should vote for what they believe in, whatever the
underlying motivations?
But when the result of the vote is going to seriously impact the lives
of other people, it helps if what they believe in is actually true, and
not simply a figment of their (or someone else's) misguided imagination.
--
Ian
kat
2018-03-18 14:04:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Surely people should vote for what they believe in, whatever the underlying
motivations?
But when the result of the vote is going to seriously impact the lives of other
people, it helps if what they believe in is actually true, and not simply a
figment of their (or someone else's) misguided imagination.
Project Fear...
--
kat
^..^<
Yellow
2018-03-19 03:17:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 08:08:49 +0000, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Vidcapper
Surely people should vote for what they believe in, whatever the
underlying motivations?
But when the result of the vote is going to seriously impact the lives
of other people, it helps if what they believe in is actually true, and
not simply a figment of their (or someone else's) misguided imagination.
The result of *every* vote has a serious impact on the lives of other
people, as well as our own - yet still we allow people to make up their
own minds on how to vote.

Are we suggesting their reasons for that choice should now be vetted?
Vidcapper
2018-03-19 08:03:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 08:08:49 +0000, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Vidcapper
Surely people should vote for what they believe in, whatever the
underlying motivations?
But when the result of the vote is going to seriously impact the lives
of other people, it helps if what they believe in is actually true, and
not simply a figment of their (or someone else's) misguided imagination.
The result of *every* vote has a serious impact on the lives of other
people, as well as our own - yet still we allow people to make up their
own minds on how to vote.
Are we suggesting their reasons for that choice should now be vetted?
It's curious how the complaints almost inevitably come from those who
lost a vote. :p
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
Yellow
2018-03-19 08:21:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Vidcapper
Post by Yellow
On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 08:08:49 +0000, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Vidcapper
Surely people should vote for what they believe in, whatever the
underlying motivations?
But when the result of the vote is going to seriously impact the lives
of other people, it helps if what they believe in is actually true, and
not simply a figment of their (or someone else's) misguided imagination.
The result of *every* vote has a serious impact on the lives of other
people, as well as our own - yet still we allow people to make up their
own minds on how to vote.
Are we suggesting their reasons for that choice should now be vetted?
It's curious how the complaints almost inevitably come from those who
lost a vote. :p
I was watching The Big Questions on the telly yesterday, and the remain
people were demanding a second referendum, stating that we would change
our minds on leave if we had understood what we were voting for and
claiming that the ballot did not have boxes for us to specifically state
we wanted to leave the Customs Union and Single Market.

Same old same old.

But what struck me more than usual as I was watching it was that all
these claims and demands only ever seem to come from the remainers.

On these shows it is never the leave voters demanding a second
referendum. It is never the leave voters claiming that they did not know
what they were voting for. It is never the leave voters who state they
did not vote to leave the Customs Union or the Single Market.

But I am sure Ian will be along shortly to claim it is because leave
voters are simply too stupid, which of course is another claim that you
only every hear from remainers.
Ophelia
2018-03-19 11:19:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Vidcapper
Post by Yellow
On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 08:08:49 +0000, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Vidcapper
Surely people should vote for what they believe in, whatever the
underlying motivations?
But when the result of the vote is going to seriously impact the lives
of other people, it helps if what they believe in is actually true, and
not simply a figment of their (or someone else's) misguided
imagination.
The result of *every* vote has a serious impact on the lives of other
people, as well as our own - yet still we allow people to make up their
own minds on how to vote.
Are we suggesting their reasons for that choice should now be vetted?
It's curious how the complaints almost inevitably come from those who
lost a vote. :p
I was watching The Big Questions on the telly yesterday, and the remain
people were demanding a second referendum, stating that we would change
our minds on leave if we had understood what we were voting for and
claiming that the ballot did not have boxes for us to specifically state
we wanted to leave the Customs Union and Single Market.

Same old same old.

But what struck me more than usual as I was watching it was that all
these claims and demands only ever seem to come from the remainers.

On these shows it is never the leave voters demanding a second
referendum. It is never the leave voters claiming that they did not know
what they were voting for. It is never the leave voters who state they
did not vote to leave the Customs Union or the Single Market.

But I am sure Ian will be along shortly to claim it is because leave
voters are simply too stupid, which of course is another claim that you
only every hear from remainers.

==

None stop!
R. Mark Clayton
2018-03-19 15:13:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Vidcapper
Post by Yellow
On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 08:08:49 +0000, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Vidcapper
Surely people should vote for what they believe in, whatever the
underlying motivations?
But when the result of the vote is going to seriously impact the lives
of other people, it helps if what they believe in is actually true, and
not simply a figment of their (or someone else's) misguided imagination.
The result of *every* vote has a serious impact on the lives of other
people, as well as our own - yet still we allow people to make up their
own minds on how to vote.
Are we suggesting their reasons for that choice should now be vetted?
It's curious how the complaints almost inevitably come from those who
lost a vote. :p
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
It's the same with football - "we wuz robbed", "ref was blind" etc. Oddly enough winners rarely complain...
Ian Jackson
2018-03-19 08:49:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 08:08:49 +0000, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Vidcapper
Surely people should vote for what they believe in, whatever the
underlying motivations?
But when the result of the vote is going to seriously impact the lives
of other people, it helps if what they believe in is actually true, and
not simply a figment of their (or someone else's) misguided imagination.
The result of *every* vote has a serious impact on the lives of other
people, as well as our own
It depends.

My vote in the local council elections is unlikely to have any effect on
Joe Bloggs in Spalding. However, in the case of the referendum, my vote
contributed directly to determining how Joe would be able to carry on
supplying his genuine Spalding Widgets to his customer in Paris.

I voted to allow him to continue to simply load up his van and drive
them there without any let or hindrance (which is how I presume is how
he likes to do it), but others voted to interfere with his business -
and it could be that his ability to trade will soon become somewhat more
difficult, and therefore less economically viable.

Of course, the referendum didn't specifically ask "Do you want to make
it more difficult for Joe Bloggs to sell his widgets". Nevertheless,
that could well be a direct consequence of what they voted for. In
fairness, while I doubt if any Leave voter actually wanted to make life
more difficult for Joe, most will still claim that they knew exactly
what they were voting for.
Post by Yellow
- yet still we allow people to make up their
own minds on how to vote.
Are we suggesting their reasons for that choice should now be vetted?
Well it does help if people actually know what they are actually voting
for, and the consequences thereof. A fair proportion of Brexiteers
didn't know what they were voting for (apart from the brain-dead chant
of "We voted to leave") - and, arguably, nearly two years on, they still
don't (especially their leaders).
--
Ian
Yellow
2018-03-19 08:56:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 08:49:56 +0000, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 08:08:49 +0000, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Vidcapper
Surely people should vote for what they believe in, whatever the
underlying motivations?
But when the result of the vote is going to seriously impact the lives
of other people, it helps if what they believe in is actually true, and
not simply a figment of their (or someone else's) misguided imagination.
The result of *every* vote has a serious impact on the lives of other
people, as well as our own
It depends.
No it doesn't. Local election, general election, EU election or
referendum - our collective decision decides who will be making the
political decisions that affect us all.
Post by Ian Jackson
My vote in the local council elections is unlikely to have any effect on
Joe Bloggs in Spalding. However, in the case of the referendum, my vote
contributed directly to determining how Joe would be able to carry on
supplying his genuine Spalding Widgets to his customer in Paris.
I voted to allow him to continue to simply load up his van and drive
them there without any let or hindrance (which is how I presume is how
he likes to do it), but others voted to interfere with his business -
and it could be that his ability to trade will soon become somewhat more
difficult, and therefore less economically viable.
Of course, the referendum didn't specifically ask "Do you want to make
it more difficult for Joe Bloggs to sell his widgets". Nevertheless,
that could well be a direct consequence of what they voted for. In
fairness, while I doubt if any Leave voter actually wanted to make life
more difficult for Joe, most will still claim that they knew exactly
what they were voting for.
Post by Yellow
- yet still we allow people to make up their
own minds on how to vote.
Are we suggesting their reasons for that choice should now be vetted?
Well it does help if people actually know what they are actually voting
for, and the consequences thereof. A fair proportion of Brexiteers
didn't know what they were voting for (apart from the brain-dead chant
of "We voted to leave") - and, arguably, nearly two years on, they still
don't (especially their leaders).
So you are or you aren't? I am left unclear.
Ian Jackson
2018-03-19 10:33:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 08:49:56 +0000, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
The result of *every* vote has a serious impact on the lives of other
people, as well as our own
It depends.
No it doesn't. Local election, general election, EU election or
referendum - our collective decision decides who will be making the
political decisions that affect us all.
How I vote in my local council election might just (and I mean 'JUST')
have some influence how many potholes get filled in in my locality.
However, it's certainly not going to make a scrap of difference in the
Spalding area. [Sorry, Joe. I did my best - but failed. But as you
probably won't be using your van much longer to pop over to Paris with
your widgets, your un-filled potholes may not affect you too much.]
--
Ian
Yellow
2018-03-19 16:33:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 10:33:29 +0000, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 08:49:56 +0000, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
The result of *every* vote has a serious impact on the lives of other
people, as well as our own
It depends.
No it doesn't. Local election, general election, EU election or
referendum - our collective decision decides who will be making the
political decisions that affect us all.
How I vote in my local council election might just (and I mean 'JUST')
have some influence how many potholes get filled in in my locality.
However, it's certainly not going to make a scrap of difference in the
Spalding area. [Sorry, Joe. I did my best - but failed. But as you
probably won't be using your van much longer to pop over to Paris with
your widgets, your un-filled potholes may not affect you too much.]
I have no idea why you keeping going on about Spalding. Is this even a
real place?

But in any case, why you arguing that the who you vote for in the local
council makes no difference to other people is one of your odder notions
if I may say so. Do you really think all they have power over is the
fixing of pot holes? LOL! Perhaps you do.
Ian Jackson
2018-03-19 17:30:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 10:33:29 +0000, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 08:49:56 +0000, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
The result of *every* vote has a serious impact on the lives of other
people, as well as our own
It depends.
No it doesn't. Local election, general election, EU election or
referendum - our collective decision decides who will be making the
political decisions that affect us all.
How I vote in my local council election might just (and I mean 'JUST')
have some influence how many potholes get filled in in my locality.
However, it's certainly not going to make a scrap of difference in the
Spalding area. [Sorry, Joe. I did my best - but failed. But as you
probably won't be using your van much longer to pop over to Paris with
your widgets, your un-filled potholes may not affect you too much.]
I have no idea why you keeping going on about Spalding. Is this even a
real place?
I wonder if your appalling lack of knowledge about the geography of the
UK influenced your decision to vote to leave the EU?

Spalding is, of course, famous for its widget mining. They come out of
the ground around 90% pure, and only need a little refining and
burnishing to bring them up to the EU minimum standard of 98%.
http://bit.ly/2u3E8Mo
Post by Yellow
But in any case, why you arguing that the who you vote for in the local
council makes no difference to other people is one of your odder notions
if I may say so.
Do you really think all they have power over is the
fixing of pot holes? LOL! Perhaps you do.
Didn't you say "The result of *every* vote has a serious impact on the
lives of other people, as well as our own"?
--
Ian
kat
2018-03-18 14:04:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by kat
Not really - I have been away and missed Mr Cable's actual tirade, but I
gather he suggested certain motives which caused a certain section of
brexit voters to vote that way were less than honourable.   One can call
people who whinge about the result remoaners without implying their
motives for wishing to remain in the EU are less than honourable, just
as Mr Cable didn't need to suggest what he did.
Surely people should vote for what they believe in, whatever the underlying
motivations?
So they should. But even if their motives were racist, Mr Cable doesn't need to
say so, and he is ill advised to do so. I saw a sign the other day -
"don't throw dirt, you only lose ground."
--
kat
^..^<
pensive hamster
2018-03-19 15:32:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by kat
Post by pensive hamster
Post by kat
Post by Yellow
Post by Fredxx
Post by Vidcapper
Post by Yellow
Hate crime is defined by how an act is perceived, not how it is
directed.
If so, that's a flawed definition,
perhaps
but it does now appear to be the accepted norm
I believe it is how the law is written.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/hate-crime/what-are-hate-incidents-and-hate-crime/
The police and Crown Prosecution Service have agreed a common definition of hate
incidents.
They say something is a hate incident if the victim or anyone else think it was
motivated by hostility or prejudice etc.
Admittedly one of the things upon which it can be based is not being an elderly
brexiteer. But the principle, surely, still applies. Vince Cable could
certainly be said to be motivated by hostility towards a particular group of people!
So if somebody uses the term "Remoaner", is that a hate incident?
It's a description of certain people, rather like "brexiteer".
"Remoaner" is a pejorative and dismissive term, "brexiteer" isn't,
so far as I can see.
Post by kat
Surely it's what
one says about them, or does to them that becomes the incident.
Yes, it's what one says about them, the words one uses, and the
meaning of those words.
Post by kat
Post by pensive hamster
Such usage seems to be motivated by hostility towards people who
think Brexit may not be a good idea.
Sauce for the goose, etc.
Not really - I have been away and missed Mr Cable's actual tirade,
Why do you call it a "tirade" (another pejorative word) if you
have missed his actual comments?
Post by kat
but I gather
he suggested certain motives which caused a certain section of brexit voters to
vote that way were less than honourable.
He suggested the reasons why a certain section of brexit voters
voted the way they did, may not have been very objective or
realistic:

-------------------------------
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43367204
12 March 2018
'... In his speech on Sunday, Sir Vince said a "nostalgia for a
world where passports were blue, faces were white and the
map was coloured imperial pink" had driven some older voters
to Brexit.

"And it was their votes on one wet day in June which crushed
the hopes and aspirations of young people for years to come,"
he added.
-------------------------------
Post by kat
One can call people who whinge about
the result
"Whinge" is another pejorative and dismissive word. If you
think Remainer's concerns lack merit, why not say so politely,
and possibly even give your reasons?
Post by kat
remoaners without implying their motives for wishing to remain in the
EU are less than honourable,
What do you think "whinging remoaners" implies.
Post by kat
just as Mr Cable didn't need to suggest what he did.
How do you know what Mr Cable suggested, if you "missed
Mr Cable's actual tirade"?
Vidcapper
2018-03-16 07:59:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fredxx
Post by Vidcapper
Post by Yellow
Hate crime is defined by how an act is perceived, not how it is
directed.
If so, that's a flawed definition,
perhaps
but it does now appear to be the accepted norm
By whom - PC brainwashed uni students? :p
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
Yellow
2018-03-16 15:28:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Vidcapper
Post by Fredxx
Post by Vidcapper
Post by Yellow
Hate crime is defined by how an act is perceived, not how it is
directed.
If so, that's a flawed definition,
perhaps
but it does now appear to be the accepted norm
By whom - PC brainwashed uni students? :p
Actually it is the law.
Vidcapper
2018-03-17 06:52:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by Vidcapper
Post by Fredxx
Post by Vidcapper
Post by Yellow
Hate crime is defined by how an act is perceived, not how it is
directed.
If so, that's a flawed definition,
perhaps
but it does now appear to be the accepted norm
By whom - PC brainwashed uni students? :p
Actually it is the law.
Ok then - PC brainwashed politicians.
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
pensive hamster
2018-03-17 16:43:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Vidcapper
Post by Yellow
Post by Vidcapper
Post by Fredxx
Post by Vidcapper
Post by Yellow
Hate crime is defined by how an act is perceived, not how it is
directed.
If so, that's a flawed definition,
perhaps
but it does now appear to be the accepted norm
By whom - PC brainwashed uni students? :p
Actually it is the law.
Ok then - PC brainwashed politicians.
It's not quite true to say that a "hate crime is defined by how
an act is perceived".

As I understand it, the "act" has to be a proven criminal offence,
not just any act.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/08/the-real-hate-crime-scandal/

'... A hate crime, the police say, is ‘any criminal offence which is
perceived, by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by
a hostility or prejudice towards someone based on a personal
characteristic’.

It seems you can have "hate incidents" as well, but I am not sure
they are actually crimes, unless proven so in court.
Handsome Jack
2018-03-15 14:18:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by tim...
I REALLY do interpret his comment as calling me a racist
Then you have a poor understanding of the English language.
Nonsense. I agree entirely with what Yellow says. It is quite clear that
Cable's intention was to suggest that many Brexit voters are racists.
--
Jack
Yellow
2018-03-15 14:17:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
He implied that all leavers (over a certain age) are racists
tim
No he didn't, you are just pretending he did.
As I have already pointed out,
I have seen far more benign comments made by people that others have claimed
are racist
I REALLY do interpret his comment as calling me a racist
IMHO you cannot argue with that position , it is my well founded belief that
he did so.
But I too am *very* clear that even though I am younger than 65 and am
not any more racist than the next fundamentally non-racist white person,
I am very clear that Vince's aim was to label every Brexit voter as a
racist, to tar us all.

It was to sweep away our actual reasons from wanting to leave the EU and
to make out that our reason was in fact an unacceptable dislike of brown
faces and that therefore our wish to leave the EU can be reasonably set
aside.

Although someone writing in The New Statesman suggested it was because
Vince is fed up with being ignored so he thought he said something
controversial to get himself on the BBC. :-)
pensive hamster
2018-03-15 17:58:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
He implied that all leavers (over a certain age) are racists
tim
No he didn't, you are just pretending he did.
As I have already pointed out,
I have seen far more benign comments made by people that others have claimed
are racist
I REALLY do interpret his comment as calling me a racist
IMHO you cannot argue with that position , it is my well founded belief that
he did so.
But I too am *very* clear that even though I am younger than 65 and am
not any more racist than the next fundamentally non-racist white person,
I am very clear that Vince's aim was to label every Brexit voter as a
racist, to tar us all.
That seems an absurd allegation, it seems like transparent
attempted spin on your part.
Post by Yellow
It was to sweep away our actual reasons from wanting to leave the EU and
to make out that our reason was in fact an unacceptable dislike of brown
faces and that therefore our wish to leave the EU can be reasonably set
aside.
You seem to be doing pretty much exactly what you accuse
Vince Cable of.

You misrepresent Cable's comments as aiming to "label every
Brexit voter as a racist, to tar us all", presumably in order to try to
discredit and sweep away his (presumable) actual reasons for
saying what he did.

-------------------------------
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43367204

'... In his speech on Sunday, Sir Vince said a "nostalgia for a
world where passports were blue, faces were white and the
map was coloured imperial pink" had driven some older voters
to Brexit.

"And it was their votes on one wet day in June which crushed
the hopes and aspirations of young people for years to come,"
he added.
-------------------------------

Given the voting figures, he seems to be saying that the
nostalgia motivated votes of *some* older voters may
have been sufficient to win the vote for Leave. If so, that
rose-tinted nostalgia by itself doesn't seem a very sound
or rational basis for Leaving.

That is a lot different to saying every Brexit voter is a racist.
Post by Yellow
Although someone writing in The New Statesman suggested it was because
Vince is fed up with being ignored so he thought he said something
controversial to get himself on the BBC. :-)
R. Mark Clayton
2018-03-16 10:56:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
SNIP
Post by tim...
I REALLY do interpret his comment as calling me a racist
Me thinks you complain too much.

Given many of your other posts, why should this upset you?
Post by tim...
IMHO you cannot argue with that position , it is my well founded belief that
he did so.
tim
Fredxx
2018-03-16 11:39:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
SNIP
Post by tim...
I REALLY do interpret his comment as calling me a racist
Me thinks you complain too much.
That could be said for any victim of racism, or sexual assault, or are
you the sort to trivialise rape too?
R. Mark Clayton
2018-03-17 20:38:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fredxx
Post by R. Mark Clayton
SNIP
Post by tim...
I REALLY do interpret his comment as calling me a racist
Me thinks you complain too much.
That could be said for any victim of racism, or sexual assault, or are
you the sort to trivialise rape too?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_lady_doth_protest_too_much,_methinks

Sorry if the Shakespearean reference went over you head, but the obvious implication is that he is what he claims insults him.

Other Brextremists in this group have openly stated that they are racist.
Fredxx
2018-03-17 22:56:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
Post by R. Mark Clayton
SNIP
Post by tim...
I REALLY do interpret his comment as calling me a racist
Me thinks you complain too much.
That could be said for any victim of racism, or sexual assault, or are
you the sort to trivialise rape too?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_lady_doth_protest_too_much,_methinks
Sorry if the Shakespearean reference went over you head, but the obvious implication is that he is what he claims insults him.
Many a true word is said in jest. I think anyone reading this thread
would correctly assume the reference was intended to implicate those who
complain are guilty of the accusation.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Other Brextremists in this group have openly stated that they are racist.
More importantly you shouldn't tar Harry's brush others. For instance I
take a colour blind approach, and I wasn't aware Eastern Europeans were
a different race to ourselves.
Vidcapper
2018-03-14 08:10:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
Post by pensive hamster
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
How will shouting "racist, racist, racist" at them get them to
change
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
their vote?
They won't want to identify with the heavily racist component of
the > leave campaign, and perpetuated by the hard Brextremists now -
control > our own borders, stop Poles stealing our jobs etc. etc.
Yes, I get that the idea is to tar everyone who voted Brexit with the
same brush of being a racist - we all do.
Where do you (or "we all") get that idea from, it seems like your
spin.
As I understand it, the idea is that some Brexit voters are racist,
to varying degrees, and that racist element might have been enough
to swing the result, given that Leave only got approx 4% more of the
total vote than Remain.
If it's one's position that it was the 4% swing vote that are "racist"
then it is incumbent on one to make that clear in your speech
Vince did not
It's not really a *swing* vote anyway, since genuine racists wouldn't
have voted the opposite way, no matter how the campaign went.
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
James Wilkinson Sword
2018-03-15 15:26:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 14:39:48 -0700 (PDT) R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
How will shouting "racist, racist, racist" at them get them to change
their vote?
They won't want to identify with the heavily racist component of the leave campaign, and perpetuated by the hard Brextremists now - control our own borders, stop Poles stealing our jobs etc. etc.
Yes, I get that the idea is to tar everyone who voted Brexit with the
same brush of being a racist - we all do.
But I do not get is, given that game no longer works and has not for
some time, why it is being played anyway. That is the puzzle.
And I read Vince has now been reported to the police - for hate speech.
No wonder the police never catch the real criminals if they're busy with petty stuff like this.
--
Flabbergasted (adj.), appalled over how much weight you have gained.
Vidcapper
2018-03-16 08:09:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 14:39:48 -0700 (PDT) R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
How will shouting "racist, racist, racist" at them get them to change
their vote?
They won't want to identify with the heavily racist component of the leave campaign, and perpetuated by the hard Brextremists now - control our own borders, stop Poles stealing our jobs etc. etc.
Yes, I get that the idea is to tar everyone who voted Brexit with the
same brush of being a racist - we all do.
But I do not get is, given that game no longer works and has not for
some time, why it is being played anyway. That is the puzzle.
And I read Vince has now been reported to the police - for hate speech.
What a delightful irony it would be for a PC drone to be hoist by their
own petard...
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
James Wilkinson Sword
2018-03-15 15:26:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 10:39:42 -0700 (PDT) R. Mark Clayton
SNIP
Post by Yellow
As I said racists voted leave and Vince said too many voted leave b=
ecause they want to see more white faces - non racists will want to dist=
ance themselves from that.
Post by Yellow
You have not answered my question so let me try again - how does
accusing non-racists of racism move the argument of EU membership
forward?
He / I didn't - the claim is racists voted overwhelming leave NOT that=
all leave voters were racists. About 2:1, so my initial estimate was a=
little high.
Post by Yellow
They did not vote to leave the EU because they want to see more white=
faces so clearly they had other reasons - so how does shouting "racis=
t,
Post by Yellow
racist, racist" at them address their actual reasons for voting how t=
hey
Post by Yellow
did?
It doesn't, it highlights one of the reasons they shouldn't have nor s=
upport leaving in future.
People might vote for free beer, until they saw how much the tax on ev=
erything else would have to go up. Similarly people voted for =A3358M p=
er week for the NHS and other dishonest claims.
Post by Yellow
How will shouting "racist, racist, racist" at them get them to change=
their vote?
They won't want to identify with the heavily racist component of the l=
eave campaign, and perpetuated by the hard Brextremists now - control ou=
r own borders, stop Poles stealing our jobs etc. etc.

Poles are humans like us, why would we want them to stay away? It's the=
Arabs we don't like.

-- =

I was explaining to my wife last night that when you die you get reincar=
nated but must come back as a different creature. She said I would like =
to come back as a cow. I said you're obviously not listening.
tim...
2018-03-15 16:34:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 21:39:48 -0000, R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 10:39:42 -0700 (PDT) R. Mark Clayton
SNIP
Post by Yellow
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As I said racists voted leave and Vince said too many voted leave
because they want to see more white faces - non racists will want to
distance themselves from that.
You have not answered my question so let me try again - how does
accusing non-racists of racism move the argument of EU membership
forward?
He / I didn't - the claim is racists voted overwhelming leave NOT that
all leave voters were racists. About 2:1, so my initial estimate was a
little high.
Post by Yellow
They did not vote to leave the EU because they want to see more white
faces so clearly they had other reasons - so how does shouting "racist,
racist, racist" at them address their actual reasons for voting how they
did?
It doesn't, it highlights one of the reasons they shouldn't have nor
support leaving in future.
People might vote for free beer, until they saw how much the tax on
everything else would have to go up. Similarly people voted for £358M
per week for the NHS and other dishonest claims.
Post by Yellow
How will shouting "racist, racist, racist" at them get them to change
their vote?
They won't want to identify with the heavily racist component of the
leave campaign, and perpetuated by the hard Brextremists now - control
our own borders, stop Poles stealing our jobs etc. etc.
Poles are humans like us,
Oh

I thought the were things that held up tents

tim
James Wilkinson Sword
2018-03-15 16:38:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 21:39:48 -0000, R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 10:39:42 -0700 (PDT) R. Mark Clayton
SNIP
Post by Yellow
As I said racists voted leave and Vince said too many voted leave=
because they want to see more white faces - non racists will want=
to
Post by tim...
Post by Yellow
distance themselves from that.
You have not answered my question so let me try again - how does
accusing non-racists of racism move the argument of EU membership
forward?
He / I didn't - the claim is racists voted overwhelming leave NOT th=
at
Post by tim...
all leave voters were racists. About 2:1, so my initial estimate wa=
s a
Post by tim...
little high.
Post by Yellow
They did not vote to leave the EU because they want to see more whi=
te
Post by tim...
Post by Yellow
faces so clearly they had other reasons - so how does shouting "rac=
ist,
Post by tim...
Post by Yellow
racist, racist" at them address their actual reasons for voting how=
they
Post by tim...
Post by Yellow
did?
It doesn't, it highlights one of the reasons they shouldn't have nor=
support leaving in future.
People might vote for free beer, until they saw how much the tax on
everything else would have to go up. Similarly people voted for =A3=
358M
Post by tim...
per week for the NHS and other dishonest claims.
Post by Yellow
How will shouting "racist, racist, racist" at them get them to chan=
ge
Post by tim...
Post by Yellow
their vote?
They won't want to identify with the heavily racist component of the=
leave campaign, and perpetuated by the hard Brextremists now - contr=
ol
Post by tim...
our own borders, stop Poles stealing our jobs etc. etc.
Poles are humans like us,
Oh
I thought the were things that held up tents
tim
They'll do that if you pay them.

-- =

I just took a leaflet out of my mailbox, informing me that I can have se=
x at 75.
I'm so happy, because I live at number 71.
So it's not too far to walk home afterwards. And it's the same side of t=
he street.
I don't even have to cross the road!
The Peeler
2018-03-15 18:38:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Oh
I thought
No, you didn't! You fed the troll, dimwit!
Fredxx
2018-03-12 18:35:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 08:14:15 -0700 (PDT) R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
I thought, since Gordon Brown, the left realised that calling people
racists no longer makes them run in fear of the label but instead just
pisses them off.
So I wonder who advised Vince Cable that the way to get leavers on side,
to stop Brexit, is to call them a bunch of racists?
Way to do Vince! All you have done is make people dig in further. :-)
The message was that racists voted leave, and too many voted leave for that reason, not that all Leave voters were racist (only about half IME).
Where did Vince say that?
"Too many were driven by a nostalgia for a world where passports were blue, faces were white, and the map was coloured imperial pink."
from transcript.
Just shows how out of touch he is now, as when he screwed young people
in voting for increased fees.

I don't recall blue passports being mentioned once before the referendum.
Post by Yellow
<snip>
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Anyway just in case you hadn't worked it out Vince's speech was not designed to appeal to xenophobic Brextremists - they won't vote Liberal in a month of Thursdays, but to non racists.
You mean the non-racists who he has just called out for being racist?
Hopefully they will examine their motives for voting leave and realise they were wrong.
Yes, I have examined them, and no change. It certainly wasn't wrong,
maybe for those who want low wages, don't work themselves and live in an
asset with a likely fall in value, perhaps.
pensive hamster
2018-03-12 19:44:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fredxx
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 08:14:15 -0700 (PDT) R. Mark Clayton
[...]
Post by Fredxx
Post by Yellow
Where did Vince say that?
"Too many were driven by a nostalgia for a world where passports were blue, faces were white, and the map was coloured imperial pink."
from transcript.
Just shows how out of touch he is now, as when he screwed young people
in voting for increased fees.
I don't recall blue passports being mentioned once before the referendum.
But they were mentioned after the referendum. Nigel Farage,
who probably is in touch with the attitudes of some non-young
people, is jolly keen:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/895536/Brexit-news-latest-Brexit-update-British-passports-blue-passports-UK-EU-European-Union

Dec 22, 2017

'Nigel Farage HAILS return of iconic blue passports after Brexit

'NIGEL FARAGE welcomed the announcement the United
Kingdom will once again adopt its iconic navy blue passport
after Brexit.

'The staunch pro-Brexit politician hailed the decision to return to
the blue passport as a signal Britain would become a "proper
country" again.

'Mr Farage said: "We’re becoming a proper country again. That
is what Brexit is going to bring us. So frankly, I couldn’t be
happier.

"Going back to that sort of navy blue colour, what it says is that
normal service is being resumed."
-----------------------------

Don't suppose many people voted specifically to get blue
passports again, they are just one symbol of how some
Leavers apparently conceive of a "proper country".
Post by Fredxx
Post by Yellow
<snip>
Ian Jackson
2018-03-12 20:49:18 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Fredxx
Just shows how out of touch he is now, as when he screwed young people
in voting for increased fees.
At the time, the Liberals were a very minor party in bed with a very
major party. The only way to stay in bed - from where they could at
least have SOME influence on SOME the Tory policies - was, if necessary,
to go along with the Tories.
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Fredxx
I don't recall blue passports being mentioned once before the referendum.
But they were mentioned after the referendum. Nigel Farage,
who probably is in touch with the attitudes of some non-young
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/895536/Brexit-news-latest-Brexit-updat
e-British-passports-blue-passports-UK-EU-European-Union
Dec 22, 2017
'Nigel Farage HAILS return of iconic blue passports after Brexit
'NIGEL FARAGE welcomed the announcement the United
Kingdom will once again adopt its iconic navy blue passport
after Brexit.
'The staunch pro-Brexit politician hailed the decision to return to
the blue passport as a signal Britain would become a "proper
country" again.
'Mr Farage said: "We’re becoming a proper country again. That
is what Brexit is going to bring us. So frankly, I couldn’t be
happier.
"Going back to that sort of navy blue colour, what it says is that
normal service is being resumed."
-----------------------------
Don't suppose many people voted specifically to get blue
passports again, they are just one symbol of how some
Leavers apparently conceive of a "proper country".
We need never have given up our blue passports and changed to the
red-purple colour that most of the EU countries adopted. Blue is one of
the approved colours.

The change back to blue (and, it appears, it is to be a rather
wishy-washy blue) is for two reasons. One is that the contract for the
manufacture of the present run of passports is ending, and the new run
will incorporate more security features. It's therefore no problem also
to change the colour. The other is in case there's a second referendum.
A blue passport will be a sweetener to help keep wavering Brexiteers on
side - and also to maybe sway some who were originally Remainers.
--
Ian
pensive hamster
2018-03-12 16:10:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
I thought, since Gordon Brown, the left realised that calling people
racists no longer makes them run in fear of the label but instead just
pisses them off.
So I wonder who advised Vince Cable that the way to get leavers on side,
to stop Brexit, is to call them a bunch of racists?
But Vince Cable didn't call them a bunch of racists, he said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43367204

'... In his speech on Sunday, Sir Vince said a "nostalgia for a
world where passports were blue, faces were white and the
map was coloured imperial pink" had driven some older voters
to Brexit.

"And it was their votes on one wet day in June which crushed
the hopes and aspirations of young people for years to come,"
he added.

'Asked on BBC Radio 4's Today programme whether he was
suggesting older Brexit voters were racist, Sir Vince said:
"I didn't suggest that at all."

'But he repeated his claim that "nostalgia for that world" was a
factor in how people had voted.

"Why else has so much fuss been made about the change in
the colour of the passport?" he added. '

If you think that amounts to calling people a bunch of racists,
then maybe you are an over-sensitive and slightly paranoid
snowflake. And maybe racist.

I can't imagine a non-racist being so touchy as you about a
suspicion of an implication that they might be racist.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
Way to do Vince! All you have done is make people dig in further. :-)
Actually I was thinking the same about you - your shameless
attempt to spin Cable's words makes me feel even more
strongly averse to the Leaver mindset.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
The message was that racists voted leave, and too many voted leave for that reason, not that all Leave voters were racist (only about half IME).
Sajid Javid has criticised Sir Vince. Tell you what Sajid - how many white faces do you see in this image (apart from Nigel Farage's light fake tan of course and a couple of press)?
http://static1.uk.businessinsider.com/image/576416d391058424008c9cf2/nigel-farages-new-brexit-poster-was-reported-to-police-over-claims-it-incites-racial-hatred.jpg
The poster was not illegal, but of course it was designed to appeal to [racial and religious] prejudice. Sadly it succeed - appearing just as the postal votes went out to the mainly older people who have them.
Yes, it seems incontrovertible that that poster was intended
to appeal to xenophobia. Not that any Leave voters might be
xenophobes, oh no. How could Farage possibly think that?
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Anyway just in case you hadn't worked it out Vince's speech was not designed to appeal to xenophobic Brextremists - they won't vote Liberal in a month of Thursdays, but to non racists.
Interestingly Steve Bannon has been to France. Their National Front is changing its name and distancing itself from it Holocaust denier* founding father to make itself more electorally attractive. Bannon has told them racism is a badge garlic munching frogs [oops] sorry the French should wear with pride: -
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/12/steve-bannon-tells-france-right-wing-to-embrace-racist-tag.html
* heard him first hand
tim...
2018-03-12 16:31:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
I thought, since Gordon Brown, the left realised that calling people
racists no longer makes them run in fear of the label but instead just
pisses them off.
So I wonder who advised Vince Cable that the way to get leavers on side,
to stop Brexit, is to call them a bunch of racists?
Way to do Vince! All you have done is make people dig in further. :-)
The message was that racists voted leave, and too many voted leave for
that reason, not that all Leave voters were racist (only about half IME).
There you go

"only about half"

when the reality is probably no more than 5%

tim
pensive hamster
2018-03-12 17:17:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
I thought, since Gordon Brown, the left realised that calling people
racists no longer makes them run in fear of the label but instead just
pisses them off.
So I wonder who advised Vince Cable that the way to get leavers on side,
to stop Brexit, is to call them a bunch of racists?
Way to do Vince! All you have done is make people dig in further. :-)
The message was that racists voted leave, and too many voted leave for
that reason, not that all Leave voters were racist (only about half IME).
There you go
"only about half"
when the reality is probably no more than 5%
But if that possible 5% had not voted the way they did, the
outcome may have been different.
R. Mark Clayton
2018-03-12 17:39:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
I thought, since Gordon Brown, the left realised that calling people
racists no longer makes them run in fear of the label but instead just
pisses them off.
So I wonder who advised Vince Cable that the way to get leavers on side,
to stop Brexit, is to call them a bunch of racists?
Way to do Vince! All you have done is make people dig in further. :-)
The message was that racists voted leave, and too many voted leave for
that reason, not that all Leave voters were racist (only about half IME).
There you go
"only about half"
when the reality is probably no more than 5%
tim
What dream do you live in - do you EVER look for facts before making assertions.

Look at http://natcen.ac.uk/news-media/press-releases/2017/september/new-report-uncovers-extent-of-racial-prejudice-in-britain/

"It is deeply concerning that 1 in 4 people in Britain self-describe as racially prejudiced and that this hasn't changed in three decades. "

About 25%, however some of these are not actually white and not all voted leave (slightly contrary to my expectation, and when actually checked the answer was a third of Leave voters were prejudiced: -

"When split by opinion in the EU referendum, 34 per cent of Leave voters admitted holding racist attitudes compared to 18 per cent of Remain voters"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-people-admit-racially-prejudiced-white-black-asian-muslims-brexit-more-leave-voters-remain-a7973751.html
kat
2018-03-12 22:12:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
I thought, since Gordon Brown, the left realised that calling people
racists no longer makes them run in fear of the label but instead just
pisses them off.
So I wonder who advised Vince Cable that the way to get leavers on side,
to stop Brexit, is to call them a bunch of racists?
Way to do Vince! All you have done is make people dig in further. :-)
The message was that racists voted leave, and too many voted leave for
that reason, not that all Leave voters were racist (only about half IME).
There you go
"only about half"
when the reality is probably no more than 5%
tim
Well, he said only about half “in his experience” which only be the Leave
voters he knows, as he cannot possibly know about the rest!
--
kat >^..^<
James Wilkinson Sword
2018-03-15 15:24:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
I thought, since Gordon Brown, the left realised that calling people
racists no longer makes them run in fear of the label but instead just
pisses them off.
So I wonder who advised Vince Cable that the way to get leavers on side,
to stop Brexit, is to call them a bunch of racists?
Way to do Vince! All you have done is make people dig in further. :-)
The message was that racists voted leave, and too many voted leave for that reason, not that all Leave voters were racist (only about half IME).
Sajid Javid has criticised Sir Vince. Tell you what Sajid - how many white faces do you see in this image (apart from Nigel Farage's light fake tan of course and a couple of press)?
http://static1.uk.businessinsider.com/image/576416d391058424008c9cf2/nigel-farages-new-brexit-poster-was-reported-to-police-over-claims-it-incites-racial-hatred.jpg
The poster was not illegal, but of course it was designed to appeal to [racial and religious] prejudice. Sadly it succeed - appearing just as the postal votes went out to the mainly older people who have them.
And it works, why do you want the UK flooded with monkeys? A poodle and a pitbull are both dogs. But they are not the same.
--
Why is there only one Monopolies Commission?
kat
2018-03-12 16:23:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
I thought, since Gordon Brown, the left realised that calling people
racists no longer makes them run in fear of the label but instead just
pisses them off.
So I wonder who advised Vince Cable that the way to get leavers on side,
to stop Brexit, is to call them a bunch of racists?
Way to do Vince! All you have done is make people dig in further. :-)
When people start name calling they have lost the real argument.
--
kat >^..^<
Yellow
2018-03-12 16:44:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by kat
Post by Yellow
I thought, since Gordon Brown, the left realised that calling people
racists no longer makes them run in fear of the label but instead just
pisses them off.
So I wonder who advised Vince Cable that the way to get leavers on side,
to stop Brexit, is to call them a bunch of racists?
Way to do Vince! All you have done is make people dig in further. :-)
When people start name calling they have lost the real argument.
I have never been a huge fan of Vince, not least because I hanker for a
Liberal Party that is liberal, not socialist - but even I was surprised
that he thought this speech was helpful to his cause.
pensive hamster
2018-03-12 16:59:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by kat
Post by Yellow
I thought, since Gordon Brown, the left realised that calling people
racists no longer makes them run in fear of the label but instead just
pisses them off.
So I wonder who advised Vince Cable that the way to get leavers on side,
to stop Brexit, is to call them a bunch of racists?
Way to do Vince! All you have done is make people dig in further. :-)
When people start name calling they have lost the real argument.
I have never been a huge fan of Vince, not least because I hanker for a
Liberal Party that is liberal, not socialist - but even I was surprised
that he thought this speech was helpful to his cause.
I imagine he was trying to appeal to young voters, rather than to
the oldies:

"And it was their votes on one wet day in June which crushed
the hopes and aspirations of young people for years to come,"
he added.
Vidcapper
2018-03-13 07:52:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
I thought, since Gordon Brown, the left realised that calling people
racists no longer makes them run in fear of the label but instead just
pisses them off.
So I wonder who advised Vince Cable that the way to get leavers on side,
to stop Brexit, is to call them a bunch of racists?
Hilary Clinton, perhaps? :p
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
Vidcapper
2018-03-18 07:35:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
I thought, since Gordon Brown, the left realised that calling people
racists no longer makes them run in fear of the label but instead just
pisses them off.
So I wonder who advised Vince Cable that the way to get leavers on side,
to stop Brexit, is to call them a bunch of racists?
Way to do Vince! All you have done is make people dig in further. :-)
I dare say he'd even consider people cheering on their country's sports
teams as racist...
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
Yellow
2018-03-19 03:12:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Vidcapper
Post by Yellow
I thought, since Gordon Brown, the left realised that calling people
racists no longer makes them run in fear of the label but instead just
pisses them off.
So I wonder who advised Vince Cable that the way to get leavers on side,
to stop Brexit, is to call them a bunch of racists?
Way to do Vince! All you have done is make people dig in further. :-)
I dare say he'd even consider people cheering on their country's sports
teams as racist...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5513965/PE-racist-say-two-
academics-UKs-whitewashed-curriculum.html

or

http://tinyurl.com/y87v22ra


Unfortunately the actual report is behind a paywall.
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