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Greggs
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Jumper
2017-04-08 19:53:35 UTC
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I bought a cup of tea and ham and cheese baguette from Greggs and I said
I was taking out. I went out of the shop and sat on a seat by a table
that Greggs had put out onto the pavement. The seating area was fenced
off by barriers. A sales assistant came out of the shop and said that I
needed to pay extra where I was sitting as it was classed as eating in.
I said that the pavement doesn’t belong to Greggs and I refused to pay
the extra, and walked off. Are Greggs in their rights to charge people
for eating outside their shops in a fenced-off area?

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Tony Dragon
2017-04-08 19:59:48 UTC
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Post by Jumper
I bought a cup of tea and ham and cheese baguette from Greggs and I said
I was taking out. I went out of the shop and sat on a seat by a table
that Greggs had put out onto the pavement. The seating area was fenced
off by barriers. A sales assistant came out of the shop and said that I
needed to pay extra where I was sitting as it was classed as eating in.
I said that the pavement doesn’t belong to Greggs and I refused to pay
the extra, and walked off. Are Greggs in their rights to charge people
for eating outside their shops in a fenced-off area?
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If it's a fenced off area it probably belongs to Greggs.

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JNugent
2017-04-09 00:46:46 UTC
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Post by Tony Dragon
Post by Jumper
I bought a cup of tea and ham and cheese baguette from Greggs and I said
I was taking out. I went out of the shop and sat on a seat by a table
that Greggs had put out onto the pavement. The seating area was fenced
off by barriers. A sales assistant came out of the shop and said that I
needed to pay extra where I was sitting as it was classed as eating in.
I said that the pavement doesn’t belong to Greggs and I refused to pay
the extra, and walked off. Are Greggs in their rights to charge people
for eating outside their shops in a fenced-off area?
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If it's a fenced off area it probably belongs to Greggs.
If the area is as the OP described it - "the pavement" - that's unlikely.

It's more likely that it is public space which Greggs are simply
permitted (by the council) to use in the way described. That is a very
common arrangement.

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GB
2017-04-09 10:17:58 UTC
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Post by JNugent
Post by Tony Dragon
Post by Jumper
I bought a cup of tea and ham and cheese baguette from Greggs and I said
I was taking out. I went out of the shop and sat on a seat by a table
that Greggs had put out onto the pavement. The seating area was fenced
off by barriers. A sales assistant came out of the shop and said that I
needed to pay extra where I was sitting as it was classed as eating in.
I said that the pavement doesn’t belong to Greggs and I refused to pay
the extra, and walked off. Are Greggs in their rights to charge people
for eating outside their shops in a fenced-off area?
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If it's a fenced off area it probably belongs to Greggs.
If the area is as the OP described it - "the pavement" - that's unlikely.
It's more likely that it is public space which Greggs are simply
permitted (by the council) to use in the way described. That is a very
common arrangement.
Even so, Greggs may well have some sort of lease/licence to make it
temporarily "theirs".
Altroy1
2017-04-09 19:33:26 UTC
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Post by JNugent
Post by Tony Dragon
Post by Jumper
I bought a cup of tea and ham and cheese baguette from Greggs and I said
I was taking out. I went out of the shop and sat on a seat by a table
that Greggs had put out onto the pavement. The seating area was fenced
off by barriers. A sales assistant came out of the shop and said that I
needed to pay extra where I was sitting as it was classed as eating in.
I'm not sure how they could call it "eating in" unless the area was also
covered by awnings or some such. See dictum of Thornton J in

Westminster City Council v
(1) Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government
(2) Mr Julian Cordani


http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2013/23.html
Post by JNugent
Post by Tony Dragon
Post by Jumper
I said that the pavement doesn’t belong to Greggs and I refused to pay
the extra, and walked off. Are Greggs in their rights to charge people
for eating outside their shops in a fenced-off area?
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If it's a fenced off area it probably belongs to Greggs.
If the area is as the OP described it - "the pavement" - that's unlikely.
It's more likely that it is public space which Greggs are simply
permitted (by the council) to use in the way described. That is a very
common arrangement.
A tables and chairs licence:

http://hospitalitylaw.co.uk/weigh-up-the-cost-of-sitting-outside/

It is quite possible for them to charge, but matters that might be worth
looking into is the contents of any licence application and any terms
brought to the customer's notice before payment. After payment is
accepted, it is a question of law to imply terms into the contract such
as whether a restaturant can approach a customer and require further
charge for "eating in". I thought normal practice dictated that before
payment, the customer is asked if he or she is "eating in". I think it
might be dubious for an eating establishment to require some kind of
extra payment after offer, consideration and acceptance is concluded.
Post by JNugent
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tim...
2017-04-10 10:13:28 UTC
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Post by Altroy1
Post by Jumper
I bought a cup of tea and ham and cheese baguette from Greggs and I said
I was taking out. I went out of the shop and sat on a seat by a table
that Greggs had put out onto the pavement. The seating area was fenced
off by barriers. A sales assistant came out of the shop and said that I
needed to pay extra where I was sitting as it was classed as eating in.
I'm not sure how they could call it "eating in" unless the area was also
covered by awnings or some such. See dictum of Thornton J in
and in any case the extra that they will be charging is not "their" money.

having "lied" to them at the counter the purchase will be entered into their
system as VAT free. If they now decide that the purchase should be
Vat-able, they will have to change the item in their accounting system and
pay the extra 20% onto the VAT man.

I'm surprised that it is worth their while to make a fuss about this, they
can't be held liable by the VAT people for customers who lie to them, surely

tim
JNugent
2017-04-17 01:40:02 UTC
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Post by Altroy1
Post by JNugent
Post by Tony Dragon
Post by Jumper
I bought a cup of tea and ham and cheese baguette from Greggs and I said
I was taking out. I went out of the shop and sat on a seat by a table
that Greggs had put out onto the pavement. The seating area was fenced
off by barriers. A sales assistant came out of the shop and said that I
needed to pay extra where I was sitting as it was classed as eating in.
I'm not sure how they could call it "eating in" unless the area was also
covered by awnings or some such. See dictum of Thornton J in
Westminster City Council v
(1) Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government
(2) Mr Julian Cordani
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2013/23.html
Post by JNugent
Post by Tony Dragon
Post by Jumper
I said that the pavement doesn’t belong to Greggs and I refused to pay
the extra, and walked off. Are Greggs in their rights to charge people
for eating outside their shops in a fenced-off area?
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If it's a fenced off area it probably belongs to Greggs.
If the area is as the OP described it - "the pavement" - that's unlikely.
It's more likely that it is public space which Greggs are simply
permitted (by the council) to use in the way described. That is a very
common arrangement.
http://hospitalitylaw.co.uk/weigh-up-the-cost-of-sitting-outside/
It is quite possible for them to charge, but matters that might be worth
looking into is the contents of any licence application and any terms
brought to the customer's notice before payment. After payment is
accepted, it is a question of law to imply terms into the contract such
as whether a restaturant can approach a customer and require further
charge for "eating in". I thought normal practice dictated that before
payment, the customer is asked if he or she is "eating in". I think it
might be dubious for an eating establishment to require some kind of
extra payment after offer, consideration and acceptance is concluded.
It isn't about charges made by the retail establishment for "eating in".

It's about the 20% VAT which has to be charged on food and drink
consumed on the premises. That can look like a retailer charge, but it
isn't.


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Anthony R. Gold
2017-04-08 22:27:32 UTC
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Post by Jumper
I bought a cup of tea and ham and cheese baguette from Greggs and I said
I was taking out. I went out of the shop and sat on a seat by a table
that Greggs had put out onto the pavement. The seating area was fenced
off by barriers. A sales assistant came out of the shop and said that I
needed to pay extra where I was sitting as it was classed as eating in.
I said that the pavement doesn’t belong to Greggs and I refused to pay
the extra, and walked off. Are Greggs in their rights to charge people
for eating outside their shops in a fenced-off area?
A cold sandwich taken away from a seller's premises is zero rated for VAT
but one eaten on their premises bears the standard rate. I assume that when
the local authority allows a store to fence off part of the highway it means
the store is the occupier and the on-premises VAT rules will prevail there.
Jumper
2017-04-09 08:13:53 UTC
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Post by Anthony R. Gold
Post by Jumper
I bought a cup of tea and ham and cheese baguette from Greggs and I said
I was taking out. I went out of the shop and sat on a seat by a table
that Greggs had put out onto the pavement. The seating area was fenced
off by barriers. A sales assistant came out of the shop and said that I
needed to pay extra where I was sitting as it was classed as eating in.
I said that the pavement doesn’t belong to Greggs and I refused to pay
the extra, and walked off. Are Greggs in their rights to charge people
for eating outside their shops in a fenced-off area?
A cold sandwich taken away from a seller's premises is zero rated for VAT
but one eaten on their premises bears the standard rate. I assume that when
the local authority allows a store to fence off part of the highway it means
the store is the occupier and the on-premises VAT rules will prevail there.
+1

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R. Mark Clayton
2017-04-09 09:08:16 UTC
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Post by Jumper
I bought a cup of tea and ham and cheese baguette from Greggs and I said
I was taking out. I went out of the shop and sat on a seat by a table
that Greggs had put out onto the pavement. The seating area was fenced
off by barriers. A sales assistant came out of the shop and said that I
needed to pay extra where I was sitting as it was classed as eating in.
I said that the pavement doesn’t belong to Greggs and I refused to pay
the extra, and walked off. Are Greggs in their rights to charge people
for eating outside their shops in a fenced-off area?
The fenced off area probably does belong to Greggs (some councils license spare bits of pavement to traders) and they have to charge VAT on eat in food by law.

Don't blame Greggs (although their prices are too high), blame HMRC.
Dean Jackson
2017-04-09 10:28:07 UTC
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Post by Jumper
I bought a cup of tea and ham and cheese baguette from Greggs and I said
I was taking out. I went out of the shop and sat on a seat by a table
that Greggs had put out onto the pavement. The seating area was fenced
off by barriers. A sales assistant came out of the shop and said that I
needed to pay extra where I was sitting as it was classed as eating in.
I said that the pavement doesn’t belong to Greggs and I refused to pay
the extra, and walked off. Are Greggs in their rights to charge people
for eating outside their shops in a fenced-off area?
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They and others have been doing that for years.Is it not a VAT issue?
--
D.J.
harry
2017-04-09 17:23:23 UTC
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Post by Jumper
I bought a cup of tea and ham and cheese baguette from Greggs and I said
I was taking out. I went out of the shop and sat on a seat by a table
that Greggs had put out onto the pavement. The seating area was fenced
off by barriers. A sales assistant came out of the shop and said that I
needed to pay extra where I was sitting as it was classed as eating in.
I said that the pavement doesn’t belong to Greggs and I refused to pay
the extra, and walked off. Are Greggs in their rights to charge people
for eating outside their shops in a fenced-off area?
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You have to pay VAT on food if it's served/eaten in/at the establishment.
Owain
2017-04-14 10:49:36 UTC
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Post by Jumper
I bought a cup of tea and ham and cheese baguette from Greggs and I said
I was taking out. I went out of the shop and sat on a seat by a table
that Greggs had put out onto the pavement.
Regardless of whether the pavement is leased to Greggs or not, or VAt applies or not, you were sitting on Greggs' chair and they're entitled to charge you for that.

Owain
JNugent
2017-04-17 01:40:50 UTC
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Post by Owain
Post by Jumper
I bought a cup of tea and ham and cheese baguette from Greggs and I said
I was taking out. I went out of the shop and sat on a seat by a table
that Greggs had put out onto the pavement.
Regardless of whether the pavement is leased to Greggs or not, or VAt applies or not, you were sitting on Greggs' chair and they're entitled to charge you for that.
AAMOF, they are obliged to charge 20% VAT for a start.

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