Discussion:
PITA paperwork coming to a business near you
(too old to reply)
R. Mark Clayton
2018-01-07 11:31:35 UTC
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Raw Message
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with Europe: -

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports

and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
Jethro_uk
2018-01-07 12:09:17 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and indirect
costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-
brexit-uk-imports
Post by R. Mark Clayton
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
Not to worry. Remember there is a vast army of skilled, educated Brits
just raring for opportunities like this.
MM
2018-01-08 09:00:58 UTC
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Raw Message
On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 12:09:17 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and indirect
costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-
brexit-uk-imports
Post by R. Mark Clayton
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
Not to worry. Remember there is a vast army of skilled, educated Brits
just raring for opportunities like this.
No, there are not. The UK now has almost full employment, and it is
proving extremely difficult for businesses to find suitable, qualified
staff.

Tell the truth for a change!

MM
Ian Jackson
2018-01-08 10:00:37 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by MM
On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 12:09:17 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and indirect
costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-
brexit-uk-imports
Post by R. Mark Clayton
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
Not to worry. Remember there is a vast army of skilled, educated Brits
just raring for opportunities like this.
No, there are not. The UK now has almost full employment, and it is
proving extremely difficult for businesses to find suitable, qualified
staff.
Tell the truth for a change!
I do think you missed Jethro's irony.
--
Ian
Jethro_uk
2018-01-08 10:11:22 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by MM
On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 12:09:17 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and
indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with
Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-
brexit-uk-imports
Post by R. Mark Clayton
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
Not to worry. Remember there is a vast army of skilled, educated Brits
just raring for opportunities like this.
No, there are not. The UK now has almost full employment, and it is
proving extremely difficult for businesses to find suitable, qualified
staff.
Tell the truth for a change!
I do think you missed Jethro's irony.
Indeed :)

The whole thing is already a mess. And just for lolz, I've started seeing
"EU national status in 2020" as a condition on some long term contracts.
(No Brits need apply).
tim...
2018-01-08 11:38:19 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by MM
On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 12:09:17 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and
indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with
Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-
brexit-uk-imports
Post by R. Mark Clayton
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
Not to worry. Remember there is a vast army of skilled, educated Brits
just raring for opportunities like this.
No, there are not. The UK now has almost full employment, and it is
proving extremely difficult for businesses to find suitable, qualified
staff.
Tell the truth for a change!
I do think you missed Jethro's irony.
Indeed :)
The whole thing is already a mess. And just for lolz, I've started seeing
"EU national status in 2020" as a condition on some long term contracts.
Well that's the discrimination that all of the Poles here are accusing us of

There is no reason for such a restriction, as it is almost completely agreed
that anybody resident in the EU in 2019 is guaranteed that residency in
perpetuity.

tim
Jethro_uk
2018-01-08 14:41:06 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by MM
On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 12:09:17 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and
indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade
with Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-
brexit-uk-imports
Post by R. Mark Clayton
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
Not to worry. Remember there is a vast army of skilled, educated
Brits just raring for opportunities like this.
No, there are not. The UK now has almost full employment, and it is
proving extremely difficult for businesses to find suitable, qualified
staff.
Tell the truth for a change!
I do think you missed Jethro's irony.
Indeed :)
The whole thing is already a mess. And just for lolz, I've started
seeing "EU national status in 2020" as a condition on some long term
contracts.
Well that's the discrimination that all of the Poles here are accusing us of
There is no reason for such a restriction, as it is almost completely
agreed that anybody resident in the EU in 2019 is guaranteed that
residency in perpetuity.
tim
Tell the US that - they're asking.
R. Mark Clayton
2018-01-08 18:41:31 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by MM
On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 12:09:17 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and
indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with
Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-
brexit-uk-imports
Post by R. Mark Clayton
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
Not to worry. Remember there is a vast army of skilled, educated Brits
just raring for opportunities like this.
No, there are not. The UK now has almost full employment, and it is
proving extremely difficult for businesses to find suitable, qualified
staff.
Tell the truth for a change!
I do think you missed Jethro's irony.
Indeed :)
The whole thing is already a mess. And just for lolz, I've started seeing
"EU national status in 2020" as a condition on some long term contracts.
Well that's the discrimination that all of the Poles here are accusing us of
There is no reason for such a restriction, as it is almost completely agreed
that anybody resident in the EU in 2019 is guaranteed that residency in
perpetuity.
tim
Last week you Brexiteers were telling us "nothing is agreed".

Anyway you can't blame employers for refusing to take the risk that it won't be.
BurfordTJustice
2018-01-07 13:44:30 UTC
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So you will be moving to the EU mainland this year?

Where to?



"R. Mark Clayton" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:7a956ee2-72dd-48e8-bce3-***@googlegroups.com...
: As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and indirect
costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with Europe: -
:
:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports
:
: and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
R. Mark Clayton
2018-01-08 11:06:34 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by BurfordTJustice
So you will be moving to the EU mainland this year?
Where to?
I am nearing retirement and your pension does not increment if you move to the EU.

Plenty of businesses will be moving to the EU though...
Post by BurfordTJustice
: As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and indirect
costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports
: and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
tim...
2018-01-08 11:38:41 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by BurfordTJustice
So you will be moving to the EU mainland this year?
Where to?
I am nearing retirement and your pension does not increment if you move to the EU.
yes it bloody does

tim
BurfordTJustice
2018-01-08 11:54:19 UTC
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So you are just another empty shell running mouth..noted.



"R. Mark Clayton" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:76efe5c9-c735-4593-8d96-***@googlegroups.com...
: On Sunday, 7 January 2018 13:44:34 UTC, BurfordTJustice wrote:
: > So you will be moving to the EU mainland this year?
: >
: > Where to?
:
: I am nearing retirement and your pension does not increment if you move to
the EU.
:
: Plenty of businesses will be moving to the EU though...
:
: >
: >
: >
: > "R. Mark Clayton" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
: > news:7a956ee2-72dd-48e8-bce3-***@googlegroups.com...
: > : As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and
indirect
: > costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with Europe: -
: > :
: > :
: >
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports
: > :
: > : and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
:
JNugent
2018-01-09 16:48:44 UTC
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Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by BurfordTJustice
So you will be moving to the EU mainland this year?
Where to?
I am nearing retirement and your pension does not increment if you move to the EU.
Not true.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Plenty of businesses will be moving to the EU though...
Post by BurfordTJustice
: As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and indirect
costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports
: and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
<https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/state-pensions-annual-increases-if-you-live-abroad/countries-where-we-pay-an-annual-increase-in-the-state-pension>
R. Mark Clayton
2018-01-09 17:06:02 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by BurfordTJustice
So you will be moving to the EU mainland this year?
Where to?
I am nearing retirement and your pension does not increment if you move to the EU.
Not true.
oops should have said "will"
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Plenty of businesses will be moving to the EU though...
Post by BurfordTJustice
: As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and indirect
costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports
: and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
<https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/state-pensions-annual-increases-if-you-live-abroad/countries-where-we-pay-an-annual-increase-in-the-state-pension>
Most of them are the EEA, so after 2019 - no increases.
JNugent
2018-01-09 17:20:57 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by BurfordTJustice
So you will be moving to the EU mainland this year?
Where to?
I am nearing retirement and your pension does not increment if you move to the EU.
Not true.
oops should have said "will"
You'd need to change more than one word to make your sentence change
meaning by 180 degrees.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Plenty of businesses will be moving to the EU though...
Post by BurfordTJustice
: As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and indirect
: costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with Europe: -
: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports
: and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
<https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/state-pensions-annual-increases-if-you-live-abroad/countries-where-we-pay-an-annual-increase-in-the-state-pension>
Most of them are the EEA, so after 2019 - no increases.
All EU countries are also in the EEA and the current arrangement (annual
rises paid) arises out of EEA membership, not EU membership, so, there
will be *no* *change* on leaving the EU. Britain would have to leave the
EEA for any change to happen, and as you know, there are no plans for that.

<https://www.gov.uk/eu-eea>

I hope no-one unnecessarily fears for their pension increases after
reading your posts on the subject.

Just to be clear, any UK retirment pensioner living in the EEA...

...Austria,
Belgium,
Bulgaria,
Croatia,
Republic of Cyprus,
Czech Republic,
Denmark,
Estonia,
Finland,
France,
Germany,
Greece,
Hungary,
Ireland,
Italy,
Latvia,
Lithuania,
Luxembourg,
Malta,
Netherlands,
Poland,
Portugal,
Romania,
Slovakia,
Slovenia,
Spain,
Sweden (and the UK)...

...does get their annual triple-locked increase in pension.

And that also applies to certain other countries (and territories):

Barbados,
Bermuda,
Bosnia-Herzegovina,
Jersey,
Guernsey,
the Isle of Man,
Israel,
Jamaica,
Kosovo,
Macedonia,
Mauritius,
Montenegro,
the Philippines,
Serbia,
Turkey,
USA.
R. Mark Clayton
2018-01-09 19:30:15 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by BurfordTJustice
So you will be moving to the EU mainland this year?
Where to?
I am nearing retirement and your pension does not increment if you move to the EU.
Not true.
oops should have said "will"
You'd need to change more than one word to make your sentence change
meaning by 180 degrees.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Plenty of businesses will be moving to the EU though...
Post by BurfordTJustice
: As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and indirect
: costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with Europe: -
: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports
: and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
<https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/state-pensions-annual-increases-if-you-live-abroad/countries-where-we-pay-an-annual-increase-in-the-state-pension>
Most of them are the EEA, so after 2019 - no increases.
All EU countries are also in the EEA and the current arrangement (annual
rises paid) arises out of EEA membership, not EU membership, so, there
will be *no* *change* on leaving the EU. Britain would have to leave the
EEA for any change to happen, and as you know, there are no plans for that.
<https://www.gov.uk/eu-eea>
I hope no-one unnecessarily fears for their pension increases after
reading your posts on the subject.
Just to be clear, any UK retirment pensioner living in the EEA...
...Austria,
Belgium,
Bulgaria,
Croatia,
Republic of Cyprus,
Czech Republic,
Denmark,
Estonia,
Finland,
France,
Germany,
Greece,
Hungary,
Ireland,
Italy,
Latvia,
Lithuania,
Luxembourg,
Malta,
Netherlands,
Poland,
Portugal,
Romania,
Slovakia,
Slovenia,
Spain,
Sweden (and the UK)...
...does get their annual triple-locked increase in pension.
will they after 2019 and a hard Brexit - will they?

They have already seen their pensions slashed by 10% (more in 2017) due to the weak pound post vote.
Post by JNugent
Barbados,
Bermuda,
Bosnia-Herzegovina,
Jersey,
Guernsey,
the Isle of Man,
Israel,
Jamaica,
Kosovo,
Macedonia,
Mauritius,
Montenegro,
the Philippines,
Serbia,
Turkey,
USA.
"
the European Economic Area (EEA)
Gibraltar
Switzerland
countries that have a social security agreement with the UK (but you can’t get increases in Canada or New Zealand)
You won’t get yearly increases if you live outside these countries."
JNugent
2018-01-10 00:13:38 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by BurfordTJustice
So you will be moving to the EU mainland this year?
Where to?
I am nearing retirement and your pension does not increment if you move to the EU.
Not true.
oops should have said "will"
You'd need to change more than one word to make your sentence change
meaning by 180 degrees.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Plenty of businesses will be moving to the EU though...
Post by BurfordTJustice
: As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and indirect
: costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with Europe: -
: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports
: and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
<https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/state-pensions-annual-increases-if-you-live-abroad/countries-where-we-pay-an-annual-increase-in-the-state-pension>
Most of them are the EEA, so after 2019 - no increases.
All EU countries are also in the EEA and the current arrangement (annual
rises paid) arises out of EEA membership, not EU membership, so, there
will be *no* *change* on leaving the EU. Britain would have to leave the
EEA for any change to happen, and as you know, there are no plans for that.
<https://www.gov.uk/eu-eea>
I hope no-one unnecessarily fears for their pension increases after
reading your posts on the subject.
Just to be clear, any UK retirment pensioner living in the EEA...
...Austria,
Belgium,
Bulgaria,
Croatia,
Republic of Cyprus,
Czech Republic,
Denmark,
Estonia,
Finland,
France,
Germany,
Greece,
Hungary,
Ireland,
Italy,
Latvia,
Lithuania,
Luxembourg,
Malta,
Netherlands,
Poland,
Portugal,
Romania,
Slovakia,
Slovenia,
Spain,
Sweden (and the UK)...
...does get their annual triple-locked increase in pension.
will they after 2019 and a hard Brexit - will they?
Why wouldn't they? The criterion is membership of the EEA. Not the EU.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
They have already seen their pensions slashed by 10% (more in 2017) due to the weak pound post vote.
Yes, I agree that our interest rates are WAY too low and should be
immediately increased to a normal level (MLR around 5% or 6%). That
would cure our exchange rate problems.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by JNugent
Barbados,
Bermuda,
Bosnia-Herzegovina,
Jersey,
Guernsey,
the Isle of Man,
Israel,
Jamaica,
Kosovo,
Macedonia,
Mauritius,
Montenegro,
the Philippines,
Serbia,
Turkey,
USA.
"
the European Economic Area (EEA)
Gibraltar
Switzerland
countries that have a social security agreement with the UK (but you can’t get increases in Canada or New Zealand)
You won’t get yearly increases if you live outside these countries."
Do you insist that Switzerland, the USA, Mauritius, Jamaica, Barbados,
Bermuda or Turkey (all places where anual pension uprating increases are
paid) are members of the EU?
tim...
2018-01-07 14:29:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and indirect
costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
for the 90% of the UK's economy which is NOT trade with the EU.

No-one ever claimed that red tape for people who do trade with the EU would
be reduced.

tim
Let It Be
2018-01-07 21:54:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and
indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with
Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
for the 90% of the UK's economy which is NOT trade with the EU.
Could I ask where you obtained your figures from?
Post by tim...
No-one ever claimed that red tape for people who do trade with the EU
would be reduced.
Brexit-idiots 'forgot' to "claim" many things that were relevant at the
time - and they told many 'porkies' with the information that they did
disseminate to the country.

With the way the Brexit negotiations are going, then this country will
probably end up worse than any 'third' world country - with the possible
(almost certain) collapse of all that we now take for granted and George
Orwell's 1984 novel [1] becomes fact when the far-right have taken total
control of this island.

[1] Now being read on Radio 4 Extra from yesterday - have a listen and just
wait until Room 101 becomes fact rather than fiction.

Have a nice day - and 'Fake News' is only just starting...........
Yellow
2018-01-08 06:02:02 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Let It Be
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and
indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with
Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
for the 90% of the UK's economy which is NOT trade with the EU.
Could I ask where you obtained your figures from?
Post by tim...
No-one ever claimed that red tape for people who do trade with the EU
would be reduced.
Brexit-idiots 'forgot' to "claim" many things that were relevant at the
time - and they told many 'porkies' with the information that they did
disseminate to the country.
With the way the Brexit negotiations are going, then this country will
probably end up worse than any 'third' world country - with the possible
(almost certain) collapse of all that we now take for granted and George
Orwell's 1984 novel [1] becomes fact when the far-right have taken total
control of this island.
[1] Now being read on Radio 4 Extra from yesterday - have a listen and just
wait until Room 101 becomes fact rather than fiction.
Myself, I have always thought of Orwell's 1984 world as being an extreme
left wing one, rather than a far right one.

But in either case, what on earth is your logic that the UK leaving the
EU will lead us further towards a totalitarian Earth? Surely leaving a
grouping of countries hell bend on political and economic union will
lead us in exactly the opposite direction.
Post by Let It Be
Have a nice day - and 'Fake News' is only just starting...........
The Todal
2018-01-08 09:50:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by Let It Be
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and
indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with
Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
for the 90% of the UK's economy which is NOT trade with the EU.
Could I ask where you obtained your figures from?
Post by tim...
No-one ever claimed that red tape for people who do trade with the EU
would be reduced.
Brexit-idiots 'forgot' to "claim" many things that were relevant at the
time - and they told many 'porkies' with the information that they did
disseminate to the country.
With the way the Brexit negotiations are going, then this country will
probably end up worse than any 'third' world country - with the possible
(almost certain) collapse of all that we now take for granted and George
Orwell's 1984 novel [1] becomes fact when the far-right have taken total
control of this island.
[1] Now being read on Radio 4 Extra from yesterday - have a listen and just
wait until Room 101 becomes fact rather than fiction.
Myself, I have always thought of Orwell's 1984 world as being an extreme
left wing one, rather than a far right one.
I'm not sure that it actually was. He looked at the world he saw in
1948, transposed the figure 48 and exaggerated some aspects of life.
During wartime the nation was subjected to intensive propaganda from our
own side, and we were encouraged to tell tales on anyone who wasn't
supporting the war effort.
Post by Yellow
But in either case, what on earth is your logic that the UK leaving the
EU will lead us further towards a totalitarian Earth? Surely leaving a
grouping of countries hell bend on political and economic union will
lead us in exactly the opposite direction.
It leads us into the unknown. It's counterintuitive to embark on a
course for the unknown. Some aspects can be predicted (mainly based on
what has happened in the past when the same set of circumstances
prevailed) but many aspects can't.

Accepting for the moment that we will be leaving a grouping of countries
hellbent on political and economic union, we were formerly part of that
grouping and able to influence policy. We were the main architects of
the single market.

We may find ourselves subject to many of the rules but no longer part of
the rule-making committee.
Post by Yellow
Post by Let It Be
Have a nice day - and 'Fake News' is only just starting...........
There's no real news, only rumour. What Orwell did get right was the
complete powerlessness of ordinary people to influence whether we were
at war with Eurasia or Eastasia.
Yellow
2018-01-08 17:56:18 UTC
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Post by The Todal
Post by Yellow
Post by Let It Be
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and
indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with
Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
for the 90% of the UK's economy which is NOT trade with the EU.
Could I ask where you obtained your figures from?
Post by tim...
No-one ever claimed that red tape for people who do trade with the EU
would be reduced.
Brexit-idiots 'forgot' to "claim" many things that were relevant at the
time - and they told many 'porkies' with the information that they did
disseminate to the country.
With the way the Brexit negotiations are going, then this country will
probably end up worse than any 'third' world country - with the possible
(almost certain) collapse of all that we now take for granted and George
Orwell's 1984 novel [1] becomes fact when the far-right have taken total
control of this island.
[1] Now being read on Radio 4 Extra from yesterday - have a listen and just
wait until Room 101 becomes fact rather than fiction.
Myself, I have always thought of Orwell's 1984 world as being an extreme
left wing one, rather than a far right one.
I'm not sure that it actually was. He looked at the world he saw in
1948, transposed the figure 48 and exaggerated some aspects of life.
During wartime the nation was subjected to intensive propaganda from our
own side, and we were encouraged to tell tales on anyone who wasn't
supporting the war effort.
Yes you are right and the more I think about it, his world was neither
left or right, but something else entirely.
Post by The Todal
Post by Yellow
But in either case, what on earth is your logic that the UK leaving the
EU will lead us further towards a totalitarian Earth? Surely leaving a
grouping of countries hell bend on political and economic union will
lead us in exactly the opposite direction.
It leads us into the unknown. It's counterintuitive to embark on a
course for the unknown. Some aspects can be predicted (mainly based on
what has happened in the past when the same set of circumstances
prevailed) but many aspects can't.
Accepting for the moment that we will be leaving a grouping of countries
hellbent on political and economic union, we were formerly part of that
grouping and able to influence policy. We were the main architects of
the single market.
"We" of course being the folks in charge - not you and me nor the rest
of the people.

Without over-egging it, this is exactly one of my objections to the EU,
the fact the powers-that-be are creating something for their own benefit
first and dragging the rest of us along, so far outside of any of our
own controls.

A people can at least overthrow their government, but I just do not see
how it would ever be possible to overthrow the EU.
Post by The Todal
We may find ourselves subject to many of the rules but no longer part of
the rule-making committee.
Yes - that is what some people want and it is a terrible outcome, I
agree; the worst option in fact. But it does not need to be the final
outcome even if that is what the people who are so desperate for us not
to leave the EU manage to pull off for now.
Post by The Todal
Post by Yellow
Post by Let It Be
Have a nice day - and 'Fake News' is only just starting...........
There's no real news, only rumour. What Orwell did get right was the
complete powerlessness of ordinary people to influence whether we were
at war with Eurasia or Eastasia.
I am told that Huxley's Brave New World is closer to were we currently
find ourselves - being controlled by the media. I've never read it but
my local library have it as an audiobook so it is on my list for this
year.
The Todal
2018-01-08 21:08:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
I am told that Huxley's Brave New World is closer to were we currently
find ourselves - being controlled by the media. I've never read it but
my local library have it as an audiobook so it is on my list for this
year.
I read it many years ago and thought it was superb. Your post has
persuaded me to read it again.

I remember how our English teacher told us of what he regarded as a flaw
in that novel - Huxley's belief that giving people "soma", a drug to
make them happy, was somehow immoral or corrupting. My teacher reckoned
that soma was a bloody good idea and we should all have some.

We do of course have Valium and SSRIs and alcohol but the main objection
to them is that they damage our health, not that it's better to be stone
cold sober all the time.
Yellow
2018-01-08 22:32:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Todal
Post by Yellow
I am told that Huxley's Brave New World is closer to were we currently
find ourselves - being controlled by the media. I've never read it but
my local library have it as an audiobook so it is on my list for this
year.
I read it many years ago and thought it was superb. Your post has
persuaded me to read it again.
Today I finished re-listening to the entire Harry Potter series as I
haven't for a few years, and I enjoyed them as much as always. I am
thinking I might listen to Darker next, as I fancy a bit of froth, and
then I'll be ready for a bit of serious so Brave New World would fit
that brief quite nicely and as I am next in line to borrow it, that
should work nicely.
Post by The Todal
I remember how our English teacher told us of what he regarded as a flaw
in that novel - Huxley's belief that giving people "soma", a drug to
make them happy, was somehow immoral or corrupting. My teacher reckoned
that soma was a bloody good idea and we should all have some.
Always interesting to hear other people's views of ideas in books as I
think it helps understand your own opinions - a bit like what we do here
I guess.
Post by The Todal
We do of course have Valium and SSRIs and alcohol but the main objection
to them is that they damage our health, not that it's better to be stone
cold sober all the time.
I think cost too comes into the equation - cost of the drugs on the NHS
and the cost of clearing up after people who have a little too much
happiness from a bottle.

But if drugs could be developed that were cheap and side effect free, I
certainly have no moral objection to them except to say that I know too
many people who drink to "smooth life's corners" and I am not actually
convinced that this does lead to a happier life, just one experienced
through a fog.

But anyway, I am looking forward to reading this book quite a bit more
now.
pensive hamster
2018-01-08 20:45:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by Let It Be
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and
indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with
Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
for the 90% of the UK's economy which is NOT trade with the EU.
Could I ask where you obtained your figures from?
Post by tim...
No-one ever claimed that red tape for people who do trade with the EU
would be reduced.
Brexit-idiots 'forgot' to "claim" many things that were relevant at the
time - and they told many 'porkies' with the information that they did
disseminate to the country.
With the way the Brexit negotiations are going, then this country will
probably end up worse than any 'third' world country - with the possible
(almost certain) collapse of all that we now take for granted and George
Orwell's 1984 novel [1] becomes fact when the far-right have taken total
control of this island.
[1] Now being read on Radio 4 Extra from yesterday - have a listen and just
wait until Room 101 becomes fact rather than fiction.
Myself, I have always thought of Orwell's 1984 world as being an extreme
left wing one, rather than a far right one.
But in either case, what on earth is your logic that the UK leaving the
EU will lead us further towards a totalitarian Earth? Surely leaving a
grouping of countries hell bend on political and economic union will
lead us in exactly the opposite direction.
Do you have any evidence that the EU is a grouping of
countries hell bent on political and economic union? They
don't seem to have achieved much of either so far.
R. Mark Clayton
2018-01-08 11:17:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Let It Be
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and
indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with
Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
for the 90% of the UK's economy which is NOT trade with the EU.
Could I ask where you obtained your figures from?
He made them up to support his argument. Actually just 42% (source World Bank)

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NE.TRD.GNFS.ZS?locations=GB

ergo 58% IS traded - about half with the EU N + CH and half with the rest of the world, although most of that will be with countries the EU has partial or full free trade deals with now.
Post by Let It Be
Post by tim...
No-one ever claimed that red tape for people who do trade with the EU
would be reduced.
Brexit-idiots 'forgot' to "claim" many things that were relevant at the
time - and they told many 'porkies' with the information that they did
disseminate to the country.
And they conveniently forget that this was exactly what was claimed (see other branch in thread).
Post by Let It Be
With the way the Brexit negotiations are going, then this country will
probably end up worse than any 'third' world country - with the possible
(almost certain) collapse of all that we now take for granted and George
Orwell's 1984 novel [1] becomes fact when the far-right have taken total
control of this island.
Oh don't get carried away - the UK will be poorer, but Brextremists think this is a price worth paying to stop the untermensche (Poles etc.) harvesting our crops.
tim...
2018-01-08 12:03:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Let It Be
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and
indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with
Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
for the 90% of the UK's economy which is NOT trade with the EU.
Could I ask where you obtained your figures from?
He made them up to support his argument.
No I didn't
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Actually just 42% (source World Bank)
here you are, quoting the wrong fact pretending it is the right one

The number you are looking for is "percent of TOTAL trade", not percentage
of EXPORTED trade.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NE.TRD.GNFS.ZS?locations=GB
ergo 58% IS traded - about half with the EU N + CH and half with the rest
of the world, although most of that will be with countries the EU has
partial or full free trade deals with now.
I don't disagree

it however not the revenant number when discussing the impact of extra
paperwork imposed upon trading companies by our EU membership.

And I'm surprised after the number of times you have been corrected on these
things in the past, that you thought you could get away with it this time

tim
tim...
2018-01-08 11:34:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Let It Be
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and
indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with
Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
for the 90% of the UK's economy which is NOT trade with the EU.
Could I ask where you obtained your figures from?
It's frequently quoted in the press and I have never seen any arguments over
it.

80% of UK trade is intra-UK.

20% of UK trade is exports, appox 50-50 (ISTM the actual figure is 46-54)
EU/ROW.

So 10% is trade with the EU, the other 90% is not.

You will often see the misquote "50% of our trade is with the EU", when they
really mean 50% of our foreign trade is with the EU. They are attempting to
bamboozle you into thinking the EU trade is more important than it really
is.
Post by Let It Be
Post by tim...
No-one ever claimed that red tape for people who do trade with the EU
would be reduced.
Brexit-idiots 'forgot' to "claim" many things that were relevant at the
time
Why would any campaign tell the voter about all of the bad things that will
happen if you vote for them. The idea that they should (and are idiots for
not doing so) is preposterous.

That's for the other side to do. If it wasn't done it is the Remainers who
are the idiiots.
Post by Let It Be
- and they told many 'porkies' with the information that they did
disseminate to the country.
as did the Remainers.
Post by Let It Be
With the way the Brexit negotiations are going, then this country will
probably end up worse than any 'third' world country
utter utter twaddle
Post by Let It Be
- with the possible (almost certain) collapse of all that we now take for
granted and George Orwell's 1984 novel [1] becomes fact when the far-right
have taken total control of this island.
Not even worthy of a reply, is it?


tim
R. Mark Clayton
2018-01-08 11:46:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by Let It Be
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and
indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with
Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
for the 90% of the UK's economy which is NOT trade with the EU.
Could I ask where you obtained your figures from?
It's frequently quoted in the press and I have never seen any arguments over
it.
80% of UK trade is intra-UK.
No it is 42% and was just 39% in 2013.
Post by tim...
20% of UK trade is exports, appox 50-50 (ISTM the actual figure is 46-54)
EU/ROW.
No it is 58%. The proportion with EU members is just below 50%, however when you include Norway and Switzerland (in the customs union) it is 50% and much of the other half is with the 65 countries the EU has partial or full free trade deals with (e.g. Turkey, Canada and soon Japan).
Post by tim...
So 10% is trade with the EU, the other 90% is not.
Only in you Brexit imagination.
Post by tim...
You will often see the misquote "50% of our trade is with the EU", when they
really mean 50% of our foreign trade is with the EU. They are attempting to
bamboozle you into thinking the EU trade is more important than it really
is.
Most people would understand that "50% of our [UK] trade is with the EU" excludes trade inside the UK and refers to trade with foreign countries.

You would be pretty cross if I said 71% of our GDP is traded with the EU, because since we are still for now in the EU 29% is traded with other EU members and 42% inside the UK.
Post by tim...
Post by Let It Be
Post by tim...
No-one ever claimed that red tape for people who do trade with the EU
would be reduced.
Brexit-idiots 'forgot' to "claim" many things that were relevant at the
time
Why would any campaign tell the voter about all of the bad things that will
happen if you vote for them. The idea that they should (and are idiots for
not doing so) is preposterous.
That's for the other side to do. If it wasn't done it is the Remainers who
are the idiiots.
Post by Let It Be
- and they told many 'porkies' with the information that they did
disseminate to the country.
as did the Remainers.
Post by Let It Be
With the way the Brexit negotiations are going, then this country will
probably end up worse than any 'third' world country
utter utter twaddle
Post by Let It Be
- with the possible (almost certain) collapse of all that we now take for
granted and George Orwell's 1984 novel [1] becomes fact when the far-right
have taken total control of this island.
Not even worthy of a reply, is it?
tim
tim...
2018-01-08 12:15:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by Let It Be
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and
indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with
Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
for the 90% of the UK's economy which is NOT trade with the EU.
Could I ask where you obtained your figures from?
It's frequently quoted in the press and I have never seen any arguments over
it.
80% of UK trade is intra-UK.
No it is 42% and was just 39% in 2013.
No you are plain wrong. You are quoting the wrong thing
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
20% of UK trade is exports, appox 50-50 (ISTM the actual figure is 46-54)
EU/ROW.
No it is 58%. The proportion with EU members is just below 50%, however
when you include Norway and Switzerland (in the customs union) it is 50%
and much of the other half is with the 65 countries the EU has partial or
full free trade deals with (e.g. Turkey, Canada and soon Japan).
Post by tim...
So 10% is trade with the EU, the other 90% is not.
Only in you Brexit imagination.
No, it's (more or less) exactly how it is
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
You will often see the misquote "50% of our trade is with the EU", when they
really mean 50% of our foreign trade is with the EU. They are attempting to
bamboozle you into thinking the EU trade is more important than it really
is.
Most people would understand that "50% of our [UK] trade is with the EU"
excludes trade inside the UK and refers to trade with foreign countries.
which is exactly why you have to be clear in defining what you are taking
about

and we ARE taking about the position where all UK trade IS included

and you are pretending that only Exports are the relevant number

YOU ARE WRONG

tim
R. Mark Clayton
2018-01-08 12:41:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by Let It Be
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and
indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with
Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
for the 90% of the UK's economy which is NOT trade with the EU.
Could I ask where you obtained your figures from?
It's frequently quoted in the press and I have never seen any arguments over
it.
80% of UK trade is intra-UK.
No it is 42% and was just 39% in 2013.
No you are plain wrong. You are quoting the wrong thing
No I was quoting the World Bank

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NE.TRD.GNFS.ZS?locations=GB

where are your figures sourced?
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
20% of UK trade is exports, appox 50-50 (ISTM the actual figure is 46-54)
EU/ROW.
No it is 58%. The proportion with EU members is just below 50%, however
when you include Norway and Switzerland (in the customs union) it is 50%
and much of the other half is with the 65 countries the EU has partial or
full free trade deals with (e.g. Turkey, Canada and soon Japan).
Post by tim...
So 10% is trade with the EU, the other 90% is not.
Only in you Brexit imagination.
No, it's (more or less) exactly how it is
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
You will often see the misquote "50% of our trade is with the EU", when they
really mean 50% of our foreign trade is with the EU. They are attempting to
bamboozle you into thinking the EU trade is more important than it really
is.
Most people would understand that "50% of our [UK] trade is with the EU"
excludes trade inside the UK and refers to trade with foreign countries.
which is exactly why you have to be clear in defining what you are taking
about
and we ARE taking about the position where all UK trade IS included
and you are pretending that only Exports are the relevant number
YOU ARE WRONG
tim
tim...
2018-01-08 18:11:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by Let It Be
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and
indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with
Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
for the 90% of the UK's economy which is NOT trade with the EU.
Could I ask where you obtained your figures from?
It's frequently quoted in the press and I have never seen any
arguments
over
it.
80% of UK trade is intra-UK.
No it is 42% and was just 39% in 2013.
No you are plain wrong. You are quoting the wrong thing
No I was quoting the World Bank
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NE.TRD.GNFS.ZS?locations=GB
where are your figures sourced?
where they are sourced is irrelevant

they are figures for the wrong thing.

you are quoting the equivalent of "how much of the money that a Brit spends
whilst on his two week holiday, is spent in the EU?)

when the figure that we want is how much money does a Brit spend in a whole
year?

tim
R. Mark Clayton
2018-01-08 11:10:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and indirect
costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
for the 90% of the UK's economy which is NOT trade with the EU.
No-one ever claimed that red tape for people who do trade with the EU would
be reduced.
You do have a short memory £4k5 claimed a [now sacked] government minister: -
"Yet ANOTHER reason to vote leave: EU red tape is ‘costing’ YOU £4,500 EACH YEAR"
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/665089/Brussels-red-tape-cost-EU-Brexit-Priti-Patel

The trouble with the Leave campaign was you never knew where one lie ended and the next one began.
Post by tim...
tim
tim...
2018-01-08 11:40:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and indirect
costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
for the 90% of the UK's economy which is NOT trade with the EU.
No-one ever claimed that red tape for people who do trade with the EU would
be reduced.
You do have a short memory £4k5 claimed a [now sacked] government minister: -
"Yet ANOTHER reason to vote leave: EU red tape is ‘costing’ YOU £4,500 EACH YEAR"
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/665089/Brussels-red-tape-cost-EU-Brexit-Priti-Patel
That does not prove your pov at all

It merely confirms mine that the issue is EU rules imposed upon the 90% of
people who do not trade with the EU.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
The trouble with the Leave campaign was you never knew where one lie ended
and the next one began.
The lie appears to be yours

tim
Tim Jackson
2018-01-09 01:19:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 11:40:58 -0000, tim... wrote...
Post by tim...
90% of
people who do not trade with the EU.
Now we find out where your 90% figure comes from. And why it is wrong.

Saying that:

"90% of *people* do not trade with the EU"

is not the same thing as saying that:

"90% of the *value* of the UK's trade is not with the EU".
--
Tim Jackson
***@timjackson.invalid
(Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)
Ian Jackson
2018-01-07 16:40:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and indirect
costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexi
t-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
"The Labour MP and former minister Chris Leslie said that the VAT hit to
firms was “yet another aspect of Brexit that the Leave campaign failed
to inform the public about.”

I'm sure that a Brexiteer will be along soon to tell us that it was up
to the Remainers to point out such problems - and they failed miserably.
--
Ian
Fredxx
2018-01-07 17:20:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and
indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with
Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexi
t-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
"The Labour MP and former minister Chris Leslie said that the VAT hit to
firms was “yet another aspect of Brexit that the Leave campaign failed
to inform the public about.”
I'm sure that a Brexiteer will be along soon to tell us that it was up
to the Remainers to point out such problems - and they failed miserably.
MOSS was already having that effect.

The hit is temporary. Any VAT registered company can claim the VAT back
at the end of the quarter.

This really is a non-story.

The current cross border VAT schemes are costing the Treasury £billions
through fraud. This might even go some way to stop it.
R. Mark Clayton
2018-01-08 11:24:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fredxx
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and
indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with
Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexi
t-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
"The Labour MP and former minister Chris Leslie said that the VAT hit to
firms was “yet another aspect of Brexit that the Leave campaign failed
to inform the public about.”
I'm sure that a Brexiteer will be along soon to tell us that it was up
to the Remainers to point out such problems - and they failed miserably.
MOSS was already having that effect.
The hit is temporary. Any VAT registered company can claim the VAT back
at the end of the quarter.
This will impact the cash flow of medium sized companies importing parts, finished goods - anything really as they can't adopt cash accounting and will have to find capital to pay the VAT on such goods.

The corollary (not mentioned by the Observer) is that EU firms will have to **** about doing VAT and customs declarations and payment on goods exported from the UK - quite a deterrent to buying them I would say unless the price advantage is large.
Post by Fredxx
This really is a non-story.
No it is yet another story about how bad leaving will be for business and the UK economy generally.
Post by Fredxx
The current cross border VAT schemes are costing the Treasury £billions
through fraud. This might even go some way to stop it.
Really - care to cite?
tim...
2018-01-08 12:10:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and
indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with
Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexi
t-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
"The Labour MP and former minister Chris Leslie said that the VAT hit to
firms was “yet another aspect of Brexit that the Leave campaign failed
to inform the public about.”
I'm sure that a Brexiteer will be along soon to tell us that it was up
to the Remainers to point out such problems - and they failed miserably.
MOSS was already having that effect.
The hit is temporary. Any VAT registered company can claim the VAT back
at the end of the quarter.
This will impact the cash flow of medium sized companies importing parts,
finished goods - anything really as they can't adopt cash accounting and
will have to find capital to pay the VAT on such goods.
Indeed it will

but companies that buy in UK sourced parts are already disadvantaged by this
cash flow "problem, so it can't be insurmountable.

It might in fact be a positive thing for UK manufacturing as it will mean
that imported parts no longer have a hidden subsidy.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
The corollary (not mentioned by the Observer) is that EU firms will have
to **** about doing VAT and customs declarations and payment on goods
exported from the UK - quite a deterrent to buying them I would say
true
Post by R. Mark Clayton
unless the price advantage is large.
Oh come on. This little inconvenience is going to add no more than 1% to
the costs
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
This really is a non-story.
No it is yet another story about how bad leaving will be for business and
the UK economy generally.
It's one of the bad things from leaving, agreed

but its effect is tiny.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
The current cross border VAT schemes are costing the Treasury £billions
through fraud. This might even go some way to stop it.
Really - care to cite?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/08/uk-faces-2bn-fine-over-chinese-imports-scam-say-eu-anti-fraud-investigators

You have to read it very carefully to see the VAT implication, but it is
there

tim
R. Mark Clayton
2018-01-08 12:21:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and
indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with
Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexi
t-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
"The Labour MP and former minister Chris Leslie said that the VAT hit to
firms was “yet another aspect of Brexit that the Leave campaign failed
to inform the public about.”
I'm sure that a Brexiteer will be along soon to tell us that it was up
to the Remainers to point out such problems - and they failed miserably.
MOSS was already having that effect.
The hit is temporary. Any VAT registered company can claim the VAT back
at the end of the quarter.
This will impact the cash flow of medium sized companies importing parts,
finished goods - anything really as they can't adopt cash accounting and
will have to find capital to pay the VAT on such goods.
Indeed it will
but companies that buy in UK sourced parts are already disadvantaged by this
cash flow "problem, so it can't be insurmountable.
Not really - they only pay the VAT on inputs when they pay the invoice, not when it enters the country.
Post by tim...
It might in fact be a positive thing for UK manufacturing as it will mean
that imported parts no longer have a hidden subsidy.
They don't.
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
The corollary (not mentioned by the Observer) is that EU firms will have
to **** about doing VAT and customs declarations and payment on goods
exported from the UK - quite a deterrent to buying them I would say
true
Post by R. Mark Clayton
unless the price advantage is large.
Oh come on. This little inconvenience is going to add no more than 1% to
the costs
It depends a bit on the size of the enterprise. Still 1% overhead one could do without. The more serious problem is capital tied up in advance VAT payments.
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
This really is a non-story.
No it is yet another story about how bad leaving will be for business and
the UK economy generally.
It's one of the bad things from leaving, agreed
but its effect is tiny.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
The current cross border VAT schemes are costing the Treasury £billions
through fraud. This might even go some way to stop it.
Really - care to cite?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/08/uk-faces-2bn-fine-over-chinese-imports-scam-say-eu-anti-fraud-investigators
You have to read it very carefully to see the VAT implication, but it is
there
This is about smuggling or under declaring the value of imports from outside the EU*, not about VAT lost on trading inside the EU, which does happen (non registered customers using ANO's VAT number when purchaising).
Post by tim...
tim
* so VAT and duty lost import, and unfair pricing within the EU.
Fredxx
2018-01-08 13:09:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
In message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct
and indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business
that trade with Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexi
t-uk-imports
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
Post by R. Mark Clayton
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
"The Labour MP and former minister Chris Leslie said that
the VAT hit to firms was “yet another aspect of Brexit that
the Leave campaign failed to inform the public about.”
I'm sure that a Brexiteer will be along soon to tell us that
it was up to the Remainers to point out such problems - and
they failed miserably.
MOSS was already having that effect.
The hit is temporary. Any VAT registered company can claim the
VAT back at the end of the quarter.
This will impact the cash flow of medium sized companies
importing parts, finished goods - anything really as they can't
adopt cash accounting and will have to find capital to pay the
VAT on such goods.
Indeed it will
but companies that buy in UK sourced parts are already
disadvantaged by this cash flow "problem, so it can't be
insurmountable.
Not really - they only pay the VAT on inputs when they pay the
invoice, not when it enters the country.
Post by tim...
It might in fact be a positive thing for UK manufacturing as it
will mean that imported parts no longer have a hidden subsidy.
They don't.
Yes they do. If I but from a supplier in the UK I pay a VAT inclusive
price. If I buy from a VAT registered EU company, I don't.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
The corollary (not mentioned by the Observer) is that EU firms
will have to **** about doing VAT and customs declarations and
payment on goods exported from the UK - quite a deterrent to
buying them I would say
true
Post by R. Mark Clayton
unless the price advantage is large.
Oh come on. This little inconvenience is going to add no more
than 1% to the costs
It depends a bit on the size of the enterprise. Still 1% overhead
one could do without. The more serious problem is capital tied up
in advance VAT payments.
That depends on the arrangement with the importer.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
This really is a non-story.
No it is yet another story about how bad leaving will be for
business and the UK economy generally.
It's one of the bad things from leaving, agreed
but its effect is tiny.
Very tiny.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
The current cross border VAT schemes are costing the Treasury
£billions through fraud. This might even go some way to stop
it.
Really - care to cite?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/08/uk-faces-2bn-fine-over-chinese-imports-scam-say-eu-anti-fraud-investigators
You have to read it very carefully to see the VAT implication, but
it is there
This is about smuggling or under declaring the value of imports from
outside the EU*, not about VAT lost on trading inside the EU, which
does happen (non registered customers using ANO's VAT number when
purchaising).
This relies on VAT free importation. I suggest you become more familiar
with the fraud.

A version you might understand:

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-carousel-fraud-britain-factbox-sb/factbox-how-carousel-fraud-works-idUKTRE57J43U20090820
"A simpler version is ‘acquisition’ fraud where the goods are imported
VAT-free into Britain from countries in the European Union. Once the
goods have been sold on in Britain, the importer goes missing, taking
with him the VAT, which is collected as part of the sale."
R. Mark Clayton
2018-01-08 18:36:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
In message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct
and indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business
that trade with Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexi
t-uk-imports
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
Post by R. Mark Clayton
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
"The Labour MP and former minister Chris Leslie said that
the VAT hit to firms was “yet another aspect of Brexit that
the Leave campaign failed to inform the public about.”
I'm sure that a Brexiteer will be along soon to tell us that
it was up to the Remainers to point out such problems - and
they failed miserably.
MOSS was already having that effect.
The hit is temporary. Any VAT registered company can claim the
VAT back at the end of the quarter.
This will impact the cash flow of medium sized companies
importing parts, finished goods - anything really as they can't
adopt cash accounting and will have to find capital to pay the
VAT on such goods.
Indeed it will
but companies that buy in UK sourced parts are already
disadvantaged by this cash flow "problem, so it can't be
insurmountable.
Not really - they only pay the VAT on inputs when they pay the
invoice, not when it enters the country.
Post by tim...
It might in fact be a positive thing for UK manufacturing as it
will mean that imported parts no longer have a hidden subsidy.
They don't.
Yes they do. If I but from a supplier in the UK I pay a VAT inclusive
price. If I buy from a VAT registered EU company, I don't.
But unless your supplier is sending you pro forma invoices, you don't pay it up front, but a net figure of the VAT collected on sales minus the VAT on inputs to HMRC and the VAT collected on sales pays the VAT on the inputs.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
The corollary (not mentioned by the Observer) is that EU firms
will have to **** about doing VAT and customs declarations and
payment on goods exported from the UK - quite a deterrent to
buying them I would say
true
Post by R. Mark Clayton
unless the price advantage is large.
Oh come on. This little inconvenience is going to add no more
than 1% to the costs
It depends a bit on the size of the enterprise. Still 1% overhead
one could do without. The more serious problem is capital tied up
in advance VAT payments.
That depends on the arrangement with the importer.
No it doesn't it will be due up front to HMRC or have to go into bond.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
This really is a non-story.
No it is yet another story about how bad leaving will be for
business and the UK economy generally.
It's one of the bad things from leaving, agreed
but its effect is tiny.
Very tiny.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
The current cross border VAT schemes are costing the Treasury
£billions through fraud. This might even go some way to stop
it.
Really - care to cite?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/08/uk-faces-2bn-fine-over-chinese-imports-scam-say-eu-anti-fraud-investigators
You have to read it very carefully to see the VAT implication, but
it is there
This is about smuggling or under declaring the value of imports from
outside the EU*, not about VAT lost on trading inside the EU, which
does happen (non registered customers using ANO's VAT number when
purchaising).
This relies on VAT free importation. I suggest you become more familiar
with the fraud.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-carousel-fraud-britain-factbox-sb/factbox-how-carousel-fraud-works-idUKTRE57J43U20090820
"A simpler version is ‘acquisition’ fraud where the goods are imported
VAT-free into Britain from countries in the European Union. Once the
goods have been sold on in Britain, the importer goes missing, taking
with him the VAT, which is collected as part of the sale."
Yes - this is missing trader fraud, and does not particularly rely on the goods being VAT free, although it helps.
Fredxx
2018-01-08 21:05:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
In message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased
direct and indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK
business that trade with Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports >>>>>>>>
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be
slashed...
"The Labour MP and former minister Chris Leslie said
that the VAT hit to firms was “yet another aspect of
Brexit that the Leave campaign failed to inform the
public about.”
I'm sure that a Brexiteer will be along soon to tell us
that it was up to the Remainers to point out such
problems - and they failed miserably.
MOSS was already having that effect.
The hit is temporary. Any VAT registered company can claim
the VAT back at the end of the quarter.
This will impact the cash flow of medium sized companies
importing parts, finished goods - anything really as they
can't adopt cash accounting and will have to find capital to
pay the VAT on such goods.
Indeed it will
but companies that buy in UK sourced parts are already
disadvantaged by this cash flow "problem, so it can't be
insurmountable.
Not really - they only pay the VAT on inputs when they pay the
invoice, not when it enters the country.
Post by tim...
It might in fact be a positive thing for UK manufacturing as
it will mean that imported parts no longer have a hidden
subsidy.
They don't.
Yes they do. If I but from a supplier in the UK I pay a VAT
inclusive price. If I buy from a VAT registered EU company, I
don't.
But unless your supplier is sending you pro forma invoices, you don't
pay it up front, but a net figure of the VAT collected on sales minus
the VAT on inputs to HMRC and the VAT collected on sales pays the VAT
on the inputs.
Most of my purchases are paid on the nail. Buying from the EU means
items are cheaper. I don't have to claim the VAT back later.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
The corollary (not mentioned by the Observer) is that EU
firms will have to **** about doing VAT and customs
declarations and payment on goods exported from the UK -
quite a deterrent to buying them I would say
true
Post by R. Mark Clayton
unless the price advantage is large.
Oh come on. This little inconvenience is going to add no more
than 1% to the costs
It depends a bit on the size of the enterprise. Still 1%
overhead one could do without. The more serious problem is
capital tied up in advance VAT payments.
That depends on the arrangement with the importer.
No it doesn't it will be due up front to HMRC or have to go into bond.
Oh dear. The courier/importer pays VAT on landing. The company doing the
purchasing pays the invoice in a normal timely fashion.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
This really is a non-story.
No it is yet another story about how bad leaving will be for
business and the UK economy generally.
It's one of the bad things from leaving, agreed
but its effect is tiny.
Very tiny.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
The current cross border VAT schemes are costing the
Treasury £billions through fraud. This might even go some
way to stop it.
Really - care to cite?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/08/uk-faces-2bn-fine-over-chinese-imports-scam-say-eu-anti-fraud-investigators
You have to read it very carefully to see the VAT implication,
but it is there
This is about smuggling or under declaring the value of imports
from outside the EU*, not about VAT lost on trading inside the
EU, which does happen (non registered customers using ANO's VAT
number when purchaising).
This relies on VAT free importation. I suggest you become more
familiar with the fraud.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-carousel-fraud-britain-factbox-sb/factbox-how-carousel-fraud-works-idUKTRE57J43U20090820
"A simpler version is ‘acquisition’ fraud where the goods are
imported VAT-free into Britain from countries in the European
Union. Once the goods have been sold on in Britain, the importer
goes missing, taking with him the VAT, which is collected as part
of the sale."
Yes - this is missing trader fraud, and does not particularly rely on
the goods being VAT free, although it helps.
You miss the point. It is especially easy to commit fraud where the
goods are imported without paying VAT.

Is that not a good thing? £2bn should be considered a nice windfall from
leaving the EU.
R. Mark Clayton
2018-01-09 10:33:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
SNIP
Post by Fredxx
Post by R. Mark Clayton
But unless your supplier is sending you pro forma invoices, you don't
pay it up front, but a net figure of the VAT collected on sales minus
the VAT on inputs to HMRC and the VAT collected on sales pays the VAT
on the inputs.
Most of my purchases are paid on the nail. Buying from the EU means
items are cheaper. I don't have to claim the VAT back later.
Likewise now. When I was running my plc, credit was usual, indeed it was usually offered without asking.
Post by Fredxx
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Oh come on. This little inconvenience is going to add no more
than 1% to the costs
It depends a bit on the size of the enterprise. Still 1%
overhead one could do without. The more serious problem is
capital tied up in advance VAT payments.
That depends on the arrangement with the importer.
No it doesn't it will be due up front to HMRC or have to go into bond.
Oh dear. The courier/importer pays VAT on landing. The company doing the
purchasing pays the invoice in a normal timely fashion.
Please could you direct me to a courier / importer who does this as a free service, Royal Mail will deal with customs, but charge a hefty fee AND you have to pay them before they will hand over your goods.
Post by Fredxx
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
This really is a non-story.
No it is yet another story about how bad leaving will be for
business and the UK economy generally.
It's one of the bad things from leaving, agreed
but its effect is tiny.
Very tiny.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
The current cross border VAT schemes are costing the
Treasury £billions through fraud. This might even go some
way to stop it.
Really - care to cite?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/08/uk-faces-2bn-fine-over-chinese-imports-scam-say-eu-anti-fraud-investigators
You have to read it very carefully to see the VAT implication,
but it is there
This is about smuggling or under declaring the value of imports
from outside the EU*, not about VAT lost on trading inside the
EU, which does happen (non registered customers using ANO's VAT
number when purchaising).
This relies on VAT free importation. I suggest you become more
familiar with the fraud.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-carousel-fraud-britain-factbox-sb/factbox-how-carousel-fraud-works-idUKTRE57J43U20090820
"A simpler version is ‘acquisition’ fraud where the goods are
imported VAT-free into Britain from countries in the European
Union. Once the goods have been sold on in Britain, the importer
goes missing, taking with him the VAT, which is collected as part
of the sale."
Yes - this is missing trader fraud, and does not particularly rely on
the goods being VAT free, although it helps.
You miss the point. It is especially easy to commit fraud where the
goods are imported without paying VAT.
Is that not a good thing? £2bn should be considered a nice windfall from
leaving the EU.
If it reduces leakage of VAT due then there would be some benefit to the exchequer, but if it just means mounds of extra compliance and up front payment then it will just be a fall.

The main worry in the past about this was whether HMRC would get uppity about the exchange rate used, seeing how we held bank accounts in other currencies.
tim...
2018-01-10 16:32:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
SNIP
Post by Fredxx
Post by R. Mark Clayton
But unless your supplier is sending you pro forma invoices, you don't
pay it up front, but a net figure of the VAT collected on sales minus
the VAT on inputs to HMRC and the VAT collected on sales pays the VAT
on the inputs.
Most of my purchases are paid on the nail. Buying from the EU means
items are cheaper. I don't have to claim the VAT back later.
Likewise now. When I was running my plc, credit was usual, indeed it was
usually offered without asking.
when I was running my ltd, no-one ever gave me credit (except my accountant)

I simply wasn't large enough for them to do do

tim
tim...
2018-01-10 16:31:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
In message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct
and indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business
that trade with Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexi
t-uk-imports
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
Post by R. Mark Clayton
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
"The Labour MP and former minister Chris Leslie said that
the VAT hit to firms was “yet another aspect of Brexit that
the Leave campaign failed to inform the public about.”
I'm sure that a Brexiteer will be along soon to tell us that
it was up to the Remainers to point out such problems - and
they failed miserably.
MOSS was already having that effect.
The hit is temporary. Any VAT registered company can claim the
VAT back at the end of the quarter.
This will impact the cash flow of medium sized companies
importing parts, finished goods - anything really as they can't
adopt cash accounting and will have to find capital to pay the
VAT on such goods.
Indeed it will
but companies that buy in UK sourced parts are already
disadvantaged by this cash flow "problem, so it can't be
insurmountable.
Not really - they only pay the VAT on inputs when they pay the
invoice, not when it enters the country.
Post by tim...
It might in fact be a positive thing for UK manufacturing as it
will mean that imported parts no longer have a hidden subsidy.
They don't.
Yes they do. If I but from a supplier in the UK I pay a VAT inclusive
price. If I buy from a VAT registered EU company, I don't.
But unless your supplier is sending you pro forma invoices, you don't pay
it up front,
well no, but you still usually have to pay it before getting to reclaim it
as input VAT on you return
Post by R. Mark Clayton
but a net figure of the VAT collected on sales minus the VAT on inputs to
HMRC and the VAT collected on sales pays the VAT on the inputs.
I have no idea what you are saying here
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
That depends on the arrangement with the importer.
No it doesn't it will be due up front to HMRC or have to go into bond.
Does it? where do the rules say that?

tim
R. Mark Clayton
2018-01-10 21:23:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
SNIP
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
But unless your supplier is sending you pro forma invoices, you don't pay
it up front,
I.e. you don't pay the input VAT until you pay the invoice.
Post by tim...
well no, but you still usually have to pay it before getting to reclaim it
as input VAT on you return
Post by R. Mark Clayton
but a net figure of the VAT collected on sales minus the VAT on inputs to
HMRC and the VAT collected on sales pays the VAT on the inputs.
I have no idea what you are saying here
If you are a retailer, most customer pay on the nail including the VAT, whereas the suppliers will normally provide on 30 days or similar.
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
That depends on the arrangement with the importer.
No it doesn't it will be due up front to HMRC or have to go into bond.
Does it? where do the rules say that?
That was the point of the article - imported items will have to have the VAT (and duty) paid to HMRC on import (as happens now with stuff from outside EU).

It is possible to put goods, especially dutiable goods into a bonded warehouse. The duty is payable when taken out (or not at all if domestic and exported - e.g. Scotch).
Post by tim...
tim
tim...
2018-01-10 22:17:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
SNIP
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
But unless your supplier is sending you pro forma invoices, you don't pay
it up front,
I.e. you don't pay the input VAT until you pay the invoice.
yes we have agreed that

and some of us believe that is exactly how it will work for foreign imports
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
well no, but you still usually have to pay it before getting to reclaim it
as input VAT on you return
Post by R. Mark Clayton
but a net figure of the VAT collected on sales minus the VAT on inputs to
HMRC and the VAT collected on sales pays the VAT on the inputs.
I have no idea what you are saying here
If you are a retailer, most customer pay on the nail including the VAT,
whereas the suppliers will normally provide on 30 days or similar.
No, you said that in you next sentence, and I rebuffed it
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
That depends on the arrangement with the importer.
No it doesn't it will be due up front to HMRC or have to go into bond.
Does it? where do the rules say that?
That was the point of the article - imported items will have to have the
VAT (and duty) paid to HMRC on import (as happens now with stuff from
outside EU).
The article was full of newspaper hyperbole

The only certainly here is that the scheme whereby the VAT is never billed
will end.

The comments on what will replace it is speculation (and probably based upon
a complete misunderstanding of how VAT works on the part of the journos)
Post by R. Mark Clayton
It is possible to put goods, especially dutiable goods into a bonded
warehouse. The duty is payable when taken out (or not at all if domestic
and exported - e.g. Scotch).
that's the rule for duty, VAT is different
R. Mark Clayton
2018-01-11 10:47:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
SNIP
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
But unless your supplier is sending you pro forma invoices, you don't pay
it up front,
I.e. you don't pay the input VAT until you pay the invoice.
yes we have agreed that
and some of us believe that is exactly how it will work for foreign imports
No some Brexiteers believe that that is how it will work post 2019 for EU imports - the have your cake and eat it scenario.

The particular problem is that payment for the goods is due to the supplier and for the VAT to HMRC.

Up until now, as in the rest of the EU, HMRC allows VAT registered importers to account for VAT on imports net on their returns, although as you have pointed out this does allow some leakage.

There is leakage on other schemes - HMRC abolished de minimus from the Channel Islands because CD's and DVD's fell below it and I have ordered stuff from the far east and it has arrived with stickers saying it is a present.
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
well no, but you still usually have to pay it before getting to reclaim it
as input VAT on you return
Post by R. Mark Clayton
but a net figure of the VAT collected on sales minus the VAT on inputs to
HMRC and the VAT collected on sales pays the VAT on the inputs.
I have no idea what you are saying here
If you are a retailer, most customer pay on the nail including the VAT,
whereas the suppliers will normally provide on 30 days or similar.
No, you said that in you next sentence, and I rebuffed it
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
That depends on the arrangement with the importer.
No it doesn't it will be due up front to HMRC or have to go into bond.
Does it? where do the rules say that?
That was the point of the article - imported items will have to have the
VAT (and duty) paid to HMRC on import (as happens now with stuff from
outside EU).
The article was full of newspaper hyperbole
The only certainly here is that the scheme whereby the VAT is never billed
will end.
The comments on what will replace it is speculation (and probably based upon
a complete misunderstanding of how VAT works on the part of the journos)
Post by R. Mark Clayton
It is possible to put goods, especially dutiable goods into a bonded
warehouse. The duty is payable when taken out (or not at all if domestic
and exported - e.g. Scotch).
that's the rule for duty, VAT is different
tim...
2018-01-11 11:13:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
SNIP
Post by R. Mark Clayton
But unless your supplier is sending you pro forma invoices, you
don't
pay
it up front,
I.e. you don't pay the input VAT until you pay the invoice.
yes we have agreed that
and some of us believe that is exactly how it will work for foreign imports
No some Brexiteers believe that that is how it will work post 2019 for EU
imports - the have your cake and eat it scenario.
don't be so silly

the VAT on imports rule is entirely within our gift

we don't have to have a VAT scheme

Most of the ROW doesn't have it

The EU doesn't charge VAT on its exports to the USA because there is no VAT
in the US and there is thus no mechanism to claim back the input tax from
the output tax charged late (cos there is no output tax charged later).

The goods are imported "VAT free"
Post by R. Mark Clayton
The particular problem is that payment for the goods is due to the
supplier and for the VAT to HMRC.
A system entirely designed by HMRC, not mandated by the EU
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Up until now, as in the rest of the EU, HMRC allows VAT registered
importers to account for VAT on imports net on their returns, although as
you have pointed out this does allow some leakage.
They do, and they could continue to do so if they wished.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
There is leakage on other schemes - HMRC abolished de minimus from the
Channel Islands because CD's and DVD's fell below it and I have ordered
stuff from the far east and it has arrived with stickers saying it is a
present.
That was because significant trade was predated to the CI by the rule. Not
because tax was avoided

tim
R. Mark Clayton
2018-01-11 11:38:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
SNIP
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
and some of us believe that is exactly how it will work for foreign imports
No some Brexiteers believe that that is how it will work post 2019 for EU
imports - the have your cake and eat it scenario.
don't be so silly
the VAT on imports rule is entirely within our gift
we don't have to have a VAT scheme
True - we could revert to purchase tax after 45 years.
Post by tim...
Most of the ROW doesn't have it
Which world is that? The imaginary Brexit one? Reality: -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-added_tax#Around_the_world
Post by tim...
The EU doesn't charge VAT on its exports to the USA because there is no VAT
in the US and there is thus no mechanism to claim back the input tax from
the output tax charged late (cos there is no output tax charged later).
The goods are imported "VAT free"
Post by R. Mark Clayton
The particular problem is that payment for the goods is due to the
supplier and for the VAT to HMRC.
A system entirely designed by HMRC, not mandated by the EU
Also true, the default for non EU countries is pay all tax and duty due on import.
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Up until now, as in the rest of the EU, HMRC allows VAT registered
importers to account for VAT on imports net on their returns, although as
you have pointed out this does allow some leakage.
They do, and they could continue to do so if they wished.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
There is leakage on other schemes - HMRC abolished de minimus from the
Channel Islands because CD's and DVD's fell below it and I have ordered
stuff from the far east and it has arrived with stickers saying it is a
present.
That was because significant trade was predated to the CI by the rule. Not
because tax was avoided
Sure it was: -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAT-free_imports_from_the_Channel_Islands#United_Kingdom_2

although only after lobbying from music retailers.
Post by tim...
tim
tim...
2018-01-08 18:07:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and
indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with
Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexi
t-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
"The Labour MP and former minister Chris Leslie said that the VAT
hit
to
firms was “yet another aspect of Brexit that the Leave campaign failed
to inform the public about.”
I'm sure that a Brexiteer will be along soon to tell us that it was up
to the Remainers to point out such problems - and they failed miserably.
MOSS was already having that effect.
The hit is temporary. Any VAT registered company can claim the VAT back
at the end of the quarter.
This will impact the cash flow of medium sized companies importing parts,
finished goods - anything really as they can't adopt cash accounting and
will have to find capital to pay the VAT on such goods.
Indeed it will
but companies that buy in UK sourced parts are already disadvantaged by this
cash flow "problem, so it can't be insurmountable.
Not really - they only pay the VAT on inputs when they pay the invoice,
not when it enters the country.
are you sure this isn't how the foreign imports is going to work
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
It might in fact be a positive thing for UK manufacturing as it will mean
that imported parts no longer have a hidden subsidy.
They don't.
yes they do

you have the cash flow advantage of not having to fund the input VAT on them
whilst they are on you stock room shelf

of course this means you have less to deduct from you output VAT when you
sell them on, but there's still a small saving here
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
The corollary (not mentioned by the Observer) is that EU firms will have
to **** about doing VAT and customs declarations and payment on goods
exported from the UK - quite a deterrent to buying them I would say
true
Post by R. Mark Clayton
unless the price advantage is large.
Oh come on. This little inconvenience is going to add no more than 1% to
the costs
It depends a bit on the size of the enterprise. Still 1% overhead one
could do without. The more serious problem is capital tied up in advance
VAT payments.
you are going to have capital tied up in the substantive cost of the item.
The VAT just increases it a bit
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
This really is a non-story.
No it is yet another story about how bad leaving will be for business and
the UK economy generally.
It's one of the bad things from leaving, agreed
but its effect is tiny.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
The current cross border VAT schemes are costing the Treasury £billions
through fraud. This might even go some way to stop it.
Really - care to cite?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/08/uk-faces-2bn-fine-over-chinese-imports-scam-say-eu-anti-fraud-investigators
You have to read it very carefully to see the VAT implication, but it is
there
This is about smuggling or under declaring the value of imports from
outside the EU*, not about VAT lost on trading inside the EU, which does
happen (non registered customers using ANO's VAT number when purchaising).
but there was a loss to the treasury when the items were exported VAT-free
to rEU and the Treasury were fined

If this VAT-free export weren't available, the treasury would not have been
fined

tim
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
tim
* so VAT and duty lost import, and unfair pricing within the EU.
R. Mark Clayton
2018-01-08 18:39:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and
indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with
Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexi
t-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
"The Labour MP and former minister Chris Leslie said that the VAT
hit
to
firms was “yet another aspect of Brexit that the Leave campaign failed
to inform the public about.”
I'm sure that a Brexiteer will be along soon to tell us that it was up
to the Remainers to point out such problems - and they failed miserably.
MOSS was already having that effect.
The hit is temporary. Any VAT registered company can claim the VAT back
at the end of the quarter.
This will impact the cash flow of medium sized companies importing parts,
finished goods - anything really as they can't adopt cash accounting and
will have to find capital to pay the VAT on such goods.
Indeed it will
but companies that buy in UK sourced parts are already disadvantaged by this
cash flow "problem, so it can't be insurmountable.
Not really - they only pay the VAT on inputs when they pay the invoice,
not when it enters the country.
are you sure this isn't how the foreign imports is going to work
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
It might in fact be a positive thing for UK manufacturing as it will mean
that imported parts no longer have a hidden subsidy.
They don't.
yes they do
you have the cash flow advantage of not having to fund the input VAT on them
whilst they are on you stock room shelf
that depends on when you pay your invoice and who you are selling to, if you pay on 30 days and sell retail then you will have net VAT in your bank.
Post by tim...
of course this means you have less to deduct from you output VAT when you
sell them on, but there's still a small saving here
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
The corollary (not mentioned by the Observer) is that EU firms will have
to **** about doing VAT and customs declarations and payment on goods
exported from the UK - quite a deterrent to buying them I would say
true
Post by R. Mark Clayton
unless the price advantage is large.
Oh come on. This little inconvenience is going to add no more than 1% to
the costs
It depends a bit on the size of the enterprise. Still 1% overhead one
could do without. The more serious problem is capital tied up in advance
VAT payments.
you are going to have capital tied up in the substantive cost of the item.
The VAT just increases it a bit
20%
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
This really is a non-story.
No it is yet another story about how bad leaving will be for business and
the UK economy generally.
It's one of the bad things from leaving, agreed
but its effect is tiny.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
The current cross border VAT schemes are costing the Treasury £billions
through fraud. This might even go some way to stop it.
Really - care to cite?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/08/uk-faces-2bn-fine-over-chinese-imports-scam-say-eu-anti-fraud-investigators
You have to read it very carefully to see the VAT implication, but it is
there
This is about smuggling or under declaring the value of imports from
outside the EU*, not about VAT lost on trading inside the EU, which does
happen (non registered customers using ANO's VAT number when purchaising).
but there was a loss to the treasury when the items were exported VAT-free
to rEU and the Treasury were fined
If this VAT-free export weren't available, the treasury would not have been
fined
A big IF.

In any event VAT free export (and import to the other EU country) makes it easier to trade.
Post by tim...
tim
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
tim
* so VAT and duty lost import, and unfair pricing within the EU.
Fredxx
2018-01-08 21:08:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and
indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with
Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexi
t-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
"The Labour MP and former minister Chris Leslie said that the VAT
hit
to
firms was “yet another aspect of Brexit that the Leave campaign failed
to inform the public about.”
I'm sure that a Brexiteer will be along soon to tell us that it was up
to the Remainers to point out such problems - and they failed miserably.
MOSS was already having that effect.
The hit is temporary. Any VAT registered company can claim the VAT back
at the end of the quarter.
This will impact the cash flow of medium sized companies importing parts,
finished goods - anything really as they can't adopt cash accounting and
will have to find capital to pay the VAT on such goods.
Indeed it will
but companies that buy in UK sourced parts are already disadvantaged by this
cash flow "problem, so it can't be insurmountable.
Not really - they only pay the VAT on inputs when they pay the invoice,
not when it enters the country.
are you sure this isn't how the foreign imports is going to work
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
It might in fact be a positive thing for UK manufacturing as it will mean
that imported parts no longer have a hidden subsidy.
They don't.
yes they do
you have the cash flow advantage of not having to fund the input VAT on them
whilst they are on you stock room shelf
that depends on when you pay your invoice and who you are selling to, if you pay on 30 days and sell retail then you will have net VAT in your bank.
Quite, why should the Treasury bank roll retailers?
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
of course this means you have less to deduct from you output VAT when you
sell them on, but there's still a small saving here
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
The corollary (not mentioned by the Observer) is that EU firms will have
to **** about doing VAT and customs declarations and payment on goods
exported from the UK - quite a deterrent to buying them I would say
true
Post by R. Mark Clayton
unless the price advantage is large.
Oh come on. This little inconvenience is going to add no more than 1% to
the costs
It depends a bit on the size of the enterprise. Still 1% overhead one
could do without. The more serious problem is capital tied up in advance
VAT payments.
you are going to have capital tied up in the substantive cost of the item.
The VAT just increases it a bit
20%
For a short period of time, and also dependent on the arrangement with
the importer.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
This really is a non-story.
No it is yet another story about how bad leaving will be for business and
the UK economy generally.
It's one of the bad things from leaving, agreed
but its effect is tiny.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
The current cross border VAT schemes are costing the Treasury £billions
through fraud. This might even go some way to stop it.
Really - care to cite?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/08/uk-faces-2bn-fine-over-chinese-imports-scam-say-eu-anti-fraud-investigators
You have to read it very carefully to see the VAT implication, but it is
there
This is about smuggling or under declaring the value of imports from
outside the EU*, not about VAT lost on trading inside the EU, which does
happen (non registered customers using ANO's VAT number when purchaising).
but there was a loss to the treasury when the items were exported VAT-free
to rEU and the Treasury were fined
If this VAT-free export weren't available, the treasury would not have been
fined
A big IF.
No, if we weren't in the EU the Treausury wouldn't have been fined.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
In any event VAT free export (and import to the other EU country) makes it easier to trade.
And commit fraud.
R. Mark Clayton
2018-01-09 10:42:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
SNIP
Post by Fredxx
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
you have the cash flow advantage of not having to fund the input VAT on them
whilst they are on you stock room shelf
that depends on when you pay your invoice and who you are selling to, if you pay on 30 days and sell retail then you will have net VAT in your bank.
Quite, why should the Treasury bank roll retailers?
You mean why should retailers hand over tax they haven't collected yet?

Surprisingly the government realises that financing VAT on goods in stock and bad debts is a burden on business, so for smaller businesses they permit what is called "cash accounting" https://www.gov.uk/vat-cash-accounting-scheme.

This means you only pay VAT you have collected and get automatic bad debt relief. For us it meant thousands of our money stayed in our bank instead of HMRC's.

SNIP
Post by Fredxx
Post by R. Mark Clayton
A big IF.
No, if we weren't in the EU the Treausury wouldn't have been fined.
Yes that is the IF. If HMRC weren't dysfuntional and wasting time pursuing cases like Arctic Systems instead of countering blatant fraud the Treasury wouldn't have been fined either.
Post by Fredxx
Post by R. Mark Clayton
In any event VAT free export (and import to the other EU country) makes it easier to trade.
And commit fraud.
So do bonded warehouses and a host of other mechanisms to prevent tax collection being a total PITA. Equally there are very common ways tax is evaded - e.g. paying workers cash in hand, which evades tax, NI and eases benefit fraud.
tim...
2018-01-10 16:35:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
In message
R.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and
indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with
Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexi
t-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
"The Labour MP and former minister Chris Leslie said that the VAT
hit
to
firms was “yet another aspect of Brexit that the Leave campaign failed
to inform the public about.”
I'm sure that a Brexiteer will be along soon to tell us that it
was
up
to the Remainers to point out such problems - and they failed miserably.
MOSS was already having that effect.
The hit is temporary. Any VAT registered company can claim the VAT back
at the end of the quarter.
This will impact the cash flow of medium sized companies importing parts,
finished goods - anything really as they can't adopt cash accounting and
will have to find capital to pay the VAT on such goods.
Indeed it will
but companies that buy in UK sourced parts are already disadvantaged
by
this
cash flow "problem, so it can't be insurmountable.
Not really - they only pay the VAT on inputs when they pay the invoice,
not when it enters the country.
are you sure this isn't how the foreign imports is going to work
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
It might in fact be a positive thing for UK manufacturing as it will mean
that imported parts no longer have a hidden subsidy.
They don't.
yes they do
you have the cash flow advantage of not having to fund the input VAT on them
whilst they are on you stock room shelf
that depends on when you pay your invoice and who you are selling to, if
you pay on 30 days and sell retail then you will have net VAT in your
bank.
what part of "selling retail" guarantees that the items are sold within 30
days

some sectors of retail have stock on the shelves for months and months.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
of course this means you have less to deduct from you output VAT when you
sell them on, but there's still a small saving here
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
The corollary (not mentioned by the Observer) is that EU firms will have
to **** about doing VAT and customs declarations and payment on goods
exported from the UK - quite a deterrent to buying them I would say
true
Post by R. Mark Clayton
unless the price advantage is large.
Oh come on. This little inconvenience is going to add no more than 1% to
the costs
It depends a bit on the size of the enterprise. Still 1% overhead one
could do without. The more serious problem is capital tied up in advance
VAT payments.
you are going to have capital tied up in the substantive cost of the item.
The VAT just increases it a bit
20%
when compared with the other 80%, 20% counts a just a bit
Fredxx
2018-01-08 13:01:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and
indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with
Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexi
t-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
"The Labour MP and former minister Chris Leslie said that the VAT hit to
firms was “yet another aspect of Brexit that the Leave campaign failed
to inform the public about.”
I'm sure that a Brexiteer will be along soon to tell us that it was up
to the Remainers to point out such problems - and they failed miserably.
MOSS was already having that effect.
The hit is temporary. Any VAT registered company can claim the VAT back
at the end of the quarter.
This will impact the cash flow of medium sized companies importing parts, finished goods - anything really as they can't adopt cash accounting and will have to find capital to pay the VAT on such goods.
The corollary (not mentioned by the Observer) is that EU firms will have to **** about doing VAT and customs declarations and payment on goods exported from the UK - quite a deterrent to buying them I would say unless the price advantage is large.
Post by Fredxx
This really is a non-story.
No it is yet another story about how bad leaving will be for business and the UK economy generally.
Quite, it means purchases from the EU will be the same as those from
within the UK, where VAT is liable on the nail.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Fredxx
The current cross border VAT schemes are costing the Treasury £billions
through fraud. This might even go some way to stop it.
Really - care to cite?
You Remoaners are so ignorant. Do you spend all your time combing
through articles in desperation of finding a small grain of rhetoric
towards your lost cause?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_trader_fraud#Carousel_fraud

It's been going on for years. I really suggest you get out more.

If you google "vat" "carousel" you get over 1/2 a million hits.
Yellow
2018-01-07 21:28:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 16:40:59 +0000, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and indirect
costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexi
t-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
"The Labour MP and former minister Chris Leslie said that the VAT hit to
firms was ?yet another aspect of Brexit that the Leave campaign failed
to inform the public about.?
I'm sure that a Brexiteer will be along soon to tell us that it was up
to the Remainers to point out such problems - and they failed miserably.
I think that Chris Leslie quote is hilarious. :-)

Honestly, do you think that had the British Public been specifically
informed that businesses would have to VAT up front on EU imports the
vote would have gone the other way?

We all know that leaving the Single Market and Customs Union is going to
cause changes, and in some cases a fair bit of inconvenience in the
short term, because if that was not the case then there would never have
been any point at all in membership in the first place. That is surely
obvious to all with a brain in their heads.

But in any case, I assume that businesses already have to do this on
non-EU imports, so systems will already exist to cope within the
majority of businesses that import and I am sure they will soon get used
to the changes they are going to have to make.
tim...
2018-01-07 20:18:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and indirect
costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with Europe: -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexi
t-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
"The Labour MP and former minister Chris Leslie said that the VAT hit to
firms was “yet another aspect of Brexit that the Leave campaign failed to
inform the public about.”
I'm sure that a Brexiteer will be along soon to tell us that it was up to
the Remainers to point out such problems - and they failed miserably.
why

you've just done it for us

tim
Yellow
2018-01-07 21:14:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 03:31:35 -0800 (PST), R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with Europe: -
Is big business doing to have to spend some of is profits on customs
paperwork like they do if they export anywhere else in the world?

Excuse my while I weep a river.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
But just think how wonderful it is going to be for all those businesses
who have to deal with Single Market legislation now when they never sell
a single thing to EU. I forget the actual figure although I have posted
it before, but that is something like 90% of UK firms.

I will therefore weep less for them.
R. Mark Clayton
2018-01-08 11:34:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 03:31:35 -0800 (PST), R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with Europe: -
Is big business doing to have to spend some of is profits on customs
paperwork like they do if they export anywhere else in the world?
Yes.

Their competitors and customers still inside the EU will NOT.
Post by Yellow
Excuse my while I weep a river.
for UK's "big businesses" becoming smaller. Crocodile tears no doubt for the workers they will lay off.
Post by Yellow
Post by R. Mark Clayton
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
But just think how wonderful it is going to be for all those businesses
who have to deal with Single Market legislation now when they never sell
a single thing to EU. I forget the actual figure although I have posted
it before, but that is something like 90% of UK firms.
It was claimed as 90% of GDP, but actually it is 42%.

Obviously smaller firms (e.g. local electrical shop) are unlikely to trade direct with EU and may be more numerous. OTOH now if they sell say a kettle it won't need a CE mark, but a BS1363 mark instead (or more likely as well).
Post by Yellow
I will therefore weep less for them.
They are already paying more for imported items from wholesalers and this is squeezing their profits too - maybe they will lay off their Saturday sales girl / boy...
Yellow
2018-01-08 17:42:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 03:34:02 -0800 (PST), R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 03:31:35 -0800 (PST), R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
As predicted Brexit is leading to greatly increased direct and indirect costs (aka compliance load) for UK business that trade with Europe: -
Is big business doing to have to spend some of is profits on customs
paperwork like they do if they export anywhere else in the world?
Yes.
Their competitors and customers still inside the EU will NOT.
Post by Yellow
Excuse my while I weep a river.
for UK's "big businesses" becoming smaller. Crocodile tears no doubt for the workers they will lay off.
Here we go again with "project fear" - but no one believes it any more
as none of it ever comes true and sure, there may be a few more costs
here and there for some people but there are also going to be plenty of
savings available too.

OK, these savings maybe for the 90% of businesses who do not export but
that seems like a decent trade off to me.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
Post by R. Mark Clayton
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports
and Brextremists claimed that red tape would be slashed...
But just think how wonderful it is going to be for all those businesses
who have to deal with Single Market legislation now when they never sell
a single thing to EU. I forget the actual figure although I have posted
it before, but that is something like 90% of UK firms.
It was claimed as 90% of GDP, but actually it is 42%.
I did not make any such claim and instead assert that it will help in
the order of 90% of businesses, businesses who employ almost everyone in
the UK.

But where have you got that figure from?

43% of all our EXPORTS go to the EU and 56% of our IMPORTS are from the
EU (2016) but that is not a measure of GDP and if I have my millions and
billions right, our GDP in 2016 was £1,939,637 million while our exports
to the EU in 2016 were £240,000 million.

I make that around 12%.

I appreciate that I am mixing apples with oranges because GPD is a
different measure to the value of goods sold but it gives the idea that
your figure is way too high - surely - and it makes the 90% claim look
much more likely to be in fact correct.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Obviously smaller firms (e.g. local electrical shop) are unlikely to trade direct with EU and may be more numerous. OTOH now if they sell say a kettle it won't need a CE mark, but a BS1363 mark instead (or more likely as well).
90% of businesses, most of which are indeed small, but they employ
almost everyone.

As Kat was saying in another thread - it is a balance between business
profits, workers wages, consumer prices and we should probably add to
that the tax receipts to government.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
I will therefore weep less for them.
They are already paying more for imported items from wholesalers and this is squeezing their profits too - maybe they will lay off their Saturday sales girl / boy...
Small businesses who do not export to the UK benefit from leaving the EU
- why will you not accept that?
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