Discussion:
Learners allowed on motorways from 2018
(too old to reply)
Ted
2017-08-12 21:37:57 UTC
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I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40905632
MrCheerful
2017-08-12 22:00:10 UTC
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Post by Ted
I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40905632
Motorway tuition should be compulsory. My instructor made me return
home by motorway from my sucessful test.
Motorway standards have dropped noticeably, partly, I believe, from the
introduction of lanes that become slip roads, encouraging the use of
lane 2 at least, just to remain on the same road.
newshound
2017-08-12 22:18:35 UTC
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Post by MrCheerful
Post by Ted
I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40905632
Motorway tuition should be compulsory. My instructor made me return
home by motorway from my sucessful test.
Motorway standards have dropped noticeably, partly, I believe, from the
introduction of lanes that become slip roads, encouraging the use of
lane 2 at least, just to remain on the same road.
Don't get me started on middle lane hogs. I'm very inclined to favour
the US system to allow passing on either side. OTOH you can easily get
ticketed for excessive lane changing over there.

We currently have the worst of all possible worlds with middle lane
hogs, relatively polite brits queuing up to pass legally leading to very
long tailbacks in middle and overtaking lanes, plus the 5% of aggressive
weavers and undertakers that piss us all off.
Fredxxx
2017-08-13 12:41:40 UTC
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Post by newshound
Post by MrCheerful
Post by Ted
I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40905632
Motorway tuition should be compulsory. My instructor made me return
home by motorway from my sucessful test.
Motorway standards have dropped noticeably, partly, I believe, from
the introduction of lanes that become slip roads, encouraging the use
of lane 2 at least, just to remain on the same road.
Don't get me started on middle lane hogs. I'm very inclined to favour
the US system to allow passing on either side. OTOH you can easily get
ticketed for excessive lane changing over there.
We currently have the worst of all possible worlds with middle lane
hogs, relatively polite brits queuing up to pass legally leading to very
long tailbacks in middle and overtaking lanes, plus the 5% of aggressive
weavers and undertakers that piss us all off.
When I drive a van I confess to either undertaking with a very careful
eye including ensuring there is an empty hard shoulder ahead, or simply
stay behind them on full beam after a couple of flashes.

Ones that stay in the middle lane after being flashed they typically
become unnerved and swerve a little. Shame there isn't a hotline to
report middle lane hogs. After say 10-20 complaints they get a free
driving retest and ban if they fail.
Ian Jackson
2017-08-13 13:06:43 UTC
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In message <omph69$jug$***@dont-email.me>, Fredxxx <***@nospam.com>
writes
Post by Fredxxx
Post by newshound
Post by MrCheerful
Post by Ted
I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40905632
Motorway tuition should be compulsory. My instructor made me return
home by motorway from my sucessful test.
Motorway standards have dropped noticeably, partly, I believe, from
the introduction of lanes that become slip roads, encouraging the use
of lane 2 at least, just to remain on the same road.
Don't get me started on middle lane hogs. I'm very inclined to favour
the US system to allow passing on either side. OTOH you can easily get
ticketed for excessive lane changing over there.
We currently have the worst of all possible worlds with middle lane
hogs, relatively polite brits queuing up to pass legally leading to very
long tailbacks in middle and overtaking lanes, plus the 5% of aggressive
weavers and undertakers that piss us all off.
When I drive a van I confess to either undertaking with a very careful
eye including ensuring there is an empty hard shoulder ahead, or simply
stay behind them on full beam after a couple of flashes.
Ones that stay in the middle lane after being flashed they typically
become unnerved and swerve a little.
More likely, Middle Lane hogs stay in the middle lane after you've
flashed them because they have just paid their annual sub to the MLOC,
and therefore have every right to be there.
Post by Fredxxx
Shame there isn't a hotline to report middle lane hogs. After say
10-20 complaints they get a free driving retest and ban if they fail.
+1. After the initial announcement that the police were going to
vigorously prosecute middle lane hogs, I've only ever heard of one
report of them doing so. [IIRC, it was quite well publicised.]
--
Ian
Ophelia
2017-08-13 13:21:00 UTC
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Post by newshound
Post by MrCheerful
Post by Ted
I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40905632
Motorway tuition should be compulsory. My instructor made me return
home by motorway from my sucessful test.
Motorway standards have dropped noticeably, partly, I believe, from
the introduction of lanes that become slip roads, encouraging the use
of lane 2 at least, just to remain on the same road.
Don't get me started on middle lane hogs. I'm very inclined to favour
the US system to allow passing on either side. OTOH you can easily get
ticketed for excessive lane changing over there.
We currently have the worst of all possible worlds with middle lane
hogs, relatively polite brits queuing up to pass legally leading to very
long tailbacks in middle and overtaking lanes, plus the 5% of aggressive
weavers and undertakers that piss us all off.
When I drive a van I confess to either undertaking with a very careful
eye including ensuring there is an empty hard shoulder ahead, or simply
stay behind them on full beam after a couple of flashes.

Ones that stay in the middle lane after being flashed they typically
become unnerved and swerve a little. Shame there isn't a hotline to
report middle lane hogs. After say 10-20 complaints they get a free
driving retest and ban if they fail.

==

If only ...
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk
johannes
2017-08-13 14:17:15 UTC
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Post by Fredxxx
Post by newshound
Post by MrCheerful
Post by Ted
I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40905632
Motorway tuition should be compulsory. My instructor made me return
home by motorway from my sucessful test.
Motorway standards have dropped noticeably, partly, I believe, from
the introduction of lanes that become slip roads, encouraging the use
of lane 2 at least, just to remain on the same road.
Don't get me started on middle lane hogs. I'm very inclined to favour
the US system to allow passing on either side. OTOH you can easily get
ticketed for excessive lane changing over there.
We currently have the worst of all possible worlds with middle lane
hogs, relatively polite brits queuing up to pass legally leading to very
long tailbacks in middle and overtaking lanes, plus the 5% of aggressive
weavers and undertakers that piss us all off.
When I drive a van I confess to either undertaking with a very careful
eye including ensuring there is an empty hard shoulder ahead, or simply
stay behind them on full beam after a couple of flashes.
Ones that stay in the middle lane after being flashed they typically
become unnerved and swerve a little. Shame there isn't a hotline to
report middle lane hogs. After say 10-20 complaints they get a free
driving retest and ban if they fail.
Hmmm. My advice is never to indicate anything unless it is traccfic related,
i.e. an expected action. You never know in what spirit it's being received.
As far as I'm concerned, I ceratinly ignore any attemp to interfere if
it's not to do with traffic, and there is no rule which says you should
flash when you are frustrated, that's not a traffic rule. I don't know
the flasher, so why should I care?

That said, we are all responsible for smooth and safe flow of traciic,
we should all accomodate a little where necessary.


If someone

is blocking your progress, then
Nick Finnigan
2017-08-13 15:58:52 UTC
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Post by Fredxxx
When I drive a van I confess to either undertaking with a very careful
eye including ensuring there is an empty hard shoulder ahead, or simply
stay behind them on full beam after a couple of flashes.
Ones that stay in the middle lane after being flashed they typically
become unnerved and swerve a little. Shame there isn't a hotline to
report middle lane hogs. After say 10-20 complaints they get a free
driving retest and ban if they fail.
Hmmm. My advice is never to indicate anything unless it is traffic related,
i.e. an expected action. You never know in what spirit it's being received.
As far as I'm concerned, I certainly ignore any attempt to interfere if
it's not to do with traffic, and there is no rule which says you should
flash when you are frustrated, that's not a traffic rule. I don't know
the flasher, so why should I care?
You flash your headlamps to alert other road users to your presence. This
is clearly needed when the driver in front does not keep over to the left
when other traffic wants to pass (that's rule number 1).
johannes
2017-08-13 16:06:00 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Nick Finnigan
Post by Fredxxx
When I drive a van I confess to either undertaking with a very careful
eye including ensuring there is an empty hard shoulder ahead, or simply
stay behind them on full beam after a couple of flashes.
Ones that stay in the middle lane after being flashed they typically
become unnerved and swerve a little. Shame there isn't a hotline to
report middle lane hogs. After say 10-20 complaints they get a free
driving retest and ban if they fail.
Hmmm. My advice is never to indicate anything unless it is traffic related,
i.e. an expected action. You never know in what spirit it's being received.
As far as I'm concerned, I certainly ignore any attempt to interfere if
it's not to do with traffic, and there is no rule which says you should
flash when you are frustrated, that's not a traffic rule. I don't know
the flasher, so why should I care?
You flash your headlamps to alert other road users to your presence.
This is clearly needed when the driver in front does not keep over to
the left when other traffic wants to pass (that's rule number 1).
Where does it say this in the highway code?
Ian Jackson
2017-08-13 16:09:01 UTC
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In message <omptd6$r6a$***@gioia.aioe.org>, johannes <***@sizefitter.com>
writes
Post by johannes
Post by Nick Finnigan
Post by Fredxxx
When I drive a van I confess to either undertaking with a very careful
eye including ensuring there is an empty hard shoulder ahead, or simply
stay behind them on full beam after a couple of flashes.
Ones that stay in the middle lane after being flashed they typically
become unnerved and swerve a little. Shame there isn't a hotline to
report middle lane hogs. After say 10-20 complaints they get a free
driving retest and ban if they fail.
Hmmm. My advice is never to indicate anything unless it is traffic related,
i.e. an expected action. You never know in what spirit it's being received.
As far as I'm concerned, I certainly ignore any attempt to interfere if
it's not to do with traffic, and there is no rule which says you should
flash when you are frustrated, that's not a traffic rule. I don't know
the flasher, so why should I care?
You flash your headlamps to alert other road users to your presence.
This is clearly needed when the driver in front does not keep over to
the left when other traffic wants to pass (that's rule number 1).
Where does it say this in the highway code?
Rule 110.
--
Ian
johannes
2017-08-13 16:44:22 UTC
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Post by Ian Jackson
writes
Post by johannes
Post by Nick Finnigan
Post by Fredxxx
When I drive a van I confess to either undertaking with a very careful
eye including ensuring there is an empty hard shoulder ahead, or simply
stay behind them on full beam after a couple of flashes.
Ones that stay in the middle lane after being flashed they typically
become unnerved and swerve a little. Shame there isn't a hotline to
report middle lane hogs. After say 10-20 complaints they get a free
driving retest and ban if they fail.
Hmmm. My advice is never to indicate anything unless it is traffic related,
i.e. an expected action. You never know in what spirit it's being received.
As far as I'm concerned, I certainly ignore any attempt to interfere if
it's not to do with traffic, and there is no rule which says you should
flash when you are frustrated, that's not a traffic rule. I don't know
the flasher, so why should I care?
You flash your headlamps to alert other road users to your presence.
This is clearly needed when the driver in front does not keep over to
the left when other traffic wants to pass (that's rule number 1).
Where does it say this in the highway code?
Rule 110.
This sounds contrieved to me. Why does he need to know your present when
coming from behind. It's your job to keep safe distance to the car in
front. Or are you perhaps conveying a different message?
JNugent
2017-08-13 17:01:16 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by johannes
Post by Ian Jackson
writes
Post by johannes
Post by Nick Finnigan
Post by Fredxxx
When I drive a van I confess to either undertaking with a very careful
eye including ensuring there is an empty hard shoulder ahead, or simply
stay behind them on full beam after a couple of flashes.
Ones that stay in the middle lane after being flashed they typically
become unnerved and swerve a little. Shame there isn't a hotline to
report middle lane hogs. After say 10-20 complaints they get a free
driving retest and ban if they fail.
Hmmm. My advice is never to indicate anything unless it is traffic related,
i.e. an expected action. You never know in what spirit it's being received.
As far as I'm concerned, I certainly ignore any attempt to
interfere if
it's not to do with traffic, and there is no rule which says you should
flash when you are frustrated, that's not a traffic rule. I don't know
the flasher, so why should I care?
You flash your headlamps to alert other road users to your presence.
This is clearly needed when the driver in front does not keep over to
the left when other traffic wants to pass (that's rule number 1).
Where does it say this in the highway code?
Rule 110.
This sounds contrieved to me. Why does he need to know your present when
coming from behind.
He needs to know that (potentially) faster traffic is approaching from
behind so that he can drive considerately by keeping (or moving) to the
nearside and thereby not obstructing that traffic. Lane-hogging is an
endorsable offence under Section 3 of the Road Traffic Act 1988: driving
without due consideration for other road-users.

And there is also Highway Code Rule 168, which includes the instruction:
"Never obstruct drivers who wish to pass."
Post by johannes
It's your job to keep safe distance to the car in
front. Or are you perhaps conveying a different message?
A driver might unnecessarily obstruct traffic to his rear if he hasn't
(yet) realised that traffic is there. That he hasn't realised it is the
charitable explanation for what would otherwise be an endorsable
offence: lack of due consideration. So the lights are useful.

Note: this sort of behaviour is, in Europe, almost exclusive to the UK
(and maybe Ireland). In other countries, drivers move back to the right
when they have overtaken, thereby allowing others to overtake them. You
can make usually better progress on an Italian or German dual 2-lane
motorway than you usually can on a UK highway with four lanes per side
because other drivers don't see it as their mission to stop you from
getting past.
Chris Whelan
2017-08-13 20:27:20 UTC
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JNugent wrote:

[...]
Post by JNugent
Note: this sort of behaviour is, in Europe, almost exclusive to the UK
(and maybe Ireland). In other countries, drivers move back to the right
when they have overtaken, thereby allowing others to overtake them. You
can make usually better progress on an Italian or German dual 2-lane
motorway than you usually can on a UK highway with four lanes per side
because other drivers don't see it as their mission to stop you from
getting past.
That's common practice in France and The Netherlands also.

Chris
--
Remove prejudice to reply.
Fredxxx
2017-08-13 17:36:16 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by johannes
Post by Ian Jackson
writes
Post by johannes
Post by Nick Finnigan
Post by Fredxxx
When I drive a van I confess to either undertaking with a very careful
eye including ensuring there is an empty hard shoulder ahead, or simply
stay behind them on full beam after a couple of flashes.
Ones that stay in the middle lane after being flashed they typically
become unnerved and swerve a little. Shame there isn't a hotline to
report middle lane hogs. After say 10-20 complaints they get a free
driving retest and ban if they fail.
Hmmm. My advice is never to indicate anything unless it is traffic related,
i.e. an expected action. You never know in what spirit it's being received.
As far as I'm concerned, I certainly ignore any attempt to
interfere if
it's not to do with traffic, and there is no rule which says you should
flash when you are frustrated, that's not a traffic rule. I don't know
the flasher, so why should I care?
You flash your headlamps to alert other road users to your presence.
This is clearly needed when the driver in front does not keep over to
the left when other traffic wants to pass (that's rule number 1).
Where does it say this in the highway code?
Rule 110.
This sounds contrieved to me. Why does he need to know your present when
coming from behind. It's your job to keep safe distance to the car in
front. Or are you perhaps conveying a different message?
Its not contrived.

I also admit to being in the middle lane on occasions when I should not,
especially when I've just overtaken someone and can't see anyone behind
me. If someone does correctly view that I am in the wrong lane (hogging)
then I appreciate a flash to make it clear I am in the way and I'll move
over.

Only someone with antisocial tendencies would take offence at a gentle
reminder.
MrCheerful
2017-08-13 18:07:21 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Fredxxx
Post by johannes
Post by Ian Jackson
writes
Post by johannes
Post by Nick Finnigan
Post by Fredxxx
When I drive a van I confess to either undertaking with a very careful
eye including ensuring there is an empty hard shoulder ahead, or simply
stay behind them on full beam after a couple of flashes.
Ones that stay in the middle lane after being flashed they typically
become unnerved and swerve a little. Shame there isn't a hotline to
report middle lane hogs. After say 10-20 complaints they get a free
driving retest and ban if they fail.
Hmmm. My advice is never to indicate anything unless it is traffic related,
i.e. an expected action. You never know in what spirit it's being received.
As far as I'm concerned, I certainly ignore any attempt to interfere if
it's not to do with traffic, and there is no rule which says you should
flash when you are frustrated, that's not a traffic rule. I don't know
the flasher, so why should I care?
You flash your headlamps to alert other road users to your presence.
This is clearly needed when the driver in front does not keep over to
the left when other traffic wants to pass (that's rule number 1).
Where does it say this in the highway code?
Rule 110.
This sounds contrieved to me. Why does he need to know your present when
coming from behind. It's your job to keep safe distance to the car in
front. Or are you perhaps conveying a different message?
Its not contrived.
I also admit to being in the middle lane on occasions when I should not,
especially when I've just overtaken someone and can't see anyone behind
me. If someone does correctly view that I am in the wrong lane (hogging)
then I appreciate a flash to make it clear I am in the way and I'll move
over.
Only someone with antisocial tendencies would take offence at a gentle
reminder.
I had someone jam on their brakes many years ago, I won. I find that
headlamp flashing now adays is usually just ignored, so I don't bother.
Ian Jackson
2017-08-13 18:29:42 UTC
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In message <omq2ek$97m$***@dont-email.me>, Fredxxx <***@nospam.com>
writes
Post by Fredxxx
Post by johannes
Post by Ian Jackson
writes
Post by johannes
Post by Nick Finnigan
Post by Fredxxx
When I drive a van I confess to either undertaking with a very careful
eye including ensuring there is an empty hard shoulder ahead, or simply
stay behind them on full beam after a couple of flashes.
Ones that stay in the middle lane after being flashed they typically
become unnerved and swerve a little. Shame there isn't a hotline to
report middle lane hogs. After say 10-20 complaints they get a free
driving retest and ban if they fail.
Hmmm. My advice is never to indicate anything unless it is traffic related,
i.e. an expected action. You never know in what spirit it's being received.
As far as I'm concerned, I certainly ignore any attempt to interfere if
it's not to do with traffic, and there is no rule which says you should
flash when you are frustrated, that's not a traffic rule. I don't know
the flasher, so why should I care?
You flash your headlamps to alert other road users to your presence.
This is clearly needed when the driver in front does not keep over to
the left when other traffic wants to pass (that's rule number 1).
Where does it say this in the highway code?
Rule 110.
This sounds contrieved to me. Why does he need to know your present when
coming from behind. It's your job to keep safe distance to the car in
front. Or are you perhaps conveying a different message?
Its not contrived.
I also admit to being in the middle lane on occasions when I should
not, especially when I've just overtaken someone and can't see anyone
behind me.
If there's no one behind you - what's the problem? Don't feel too badly
about it!

However, it should be fairly automatic that you soon move leftwards -
unless by doing so, you're very soon going to have to move out again to
overtake. That way, you don't need to have to keep checking in your
mirrors quite as often - and this helps to make driving more stress
free.
Post by Fredxxx
If someone does correctly view that I am in the wrong lane (hogging)
then I appreciate a flash to make it clear I am in the way and I'll
move over.
I feel deeply embarrassed when someone has to flash me!
Post by Fredxxx
Only someone with antisocial tendencies would take offence at a gentle
reminder.
Unfortunately, there's a lot of them about.
--
Ian
johannes
2017-08-13 18:35:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Fredxxx
Post by johannes
Post by Ian Jackson
writes
Post by johannes
Post by Nick Finnigan
Post by Fredxxx
When I drive a van I confess to either undertaking with a very careful
eye including ensuring there is an empty hard shoulder ahead, or simply
stay behind them on full beam after a couple of flashes.
Ones that stay in the middle lane after being flashed they typically
become unnerved and swerve a little. Shame there isn't a hotline to
report middle lane hogs. After say 10-20 complaints they get a free
driving retest and ban if they fail.
Hmmm. My advice is never to indicate anything unless it is traffic related,
i.e. an expected action. You never know in what spirit it's being received.
As far as I'm concerned, I certainly ignore any attempt to interfere if
it's not to do with traffic, and there is no rule which says you should
flash when you are frustrated, that's not a traffic rule. I don't know
the flasher, so why should I care?
You flash your headlamps to alert other road users to your presence.
This is clearly needed when the driver in front does not keep over to
the left when other traffic wants to pass (that's rule number 1).
Where does it say this in the highway code?
Rule 110.
This sounds contrieved to me. Why does he need to know your present when
coming from behind. It's your job to keep safe distance to the car in
front. Or are you perhaps conveying a different message?
Its not contrived.
I also admit to being in the middle lane on occasions when I should
not, especially when I've just overtaken someone and can't see anyone
behind me.
If there's no one behind you - what's the problem? Don't feel too badly
about it!
However, it should be fairly automatic that you soon move leftwards -
unless by doing so, you're very soon going to have to move out again to
overtake. That way, you don't need to have to keep checking in your
mirrors quite as often - and this helps to make driving more stress free.
Post by Fredxxx
If someone does correctly view that I am in the wrong lane (hogging)
then I appreciate a flash to make it clear I am in the way and I'll
move over.
I feel deeply embarrassed when someone has to flash me!
Post by Fredxxx
Only someone with antisocial tendencies would take offence at a gentle
reminder.
Unfortunately, there's a lot of them about.
Quite, you simply don't know who's the driver. It could be a gentleman
or could could be a nutcase. Hence I never indicate or signals beyound
normal traffic rules.
Fredxxx
2017-08-13 20:05:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Fredxxx
Post by johannes
Post by Ian Jackson
writes
Post by johannes
Post by Nick Finnigan
Post by Fredxxx
When I drive a van I confess to either undertaking with a very careful
eye including ensuring there is an empty hard shoulder ahead, or simply
stay behind them on full beam after a couple of flashes.
Ones that stay in the middle lane after being flashed they typically
become unnerved and swerve a little. Shame there isn't a hotline to
report middle lane hogs. After say 10-20 complaints they get a free
driving retest and ban if they fail.
Hmmm. My advice is never to indicate anything unless it is traffic related,
i.e. an expected action. You never know in what spirit it's being received.
As far as I'm concerned, I certainly ignore any attempt to interfere if
it's not to do with traffic, and there is no rule which says you should
flash when you are frustrated, that's not a traffic rule. I don't know
the flasher, so why should I care?
You flash your headlamps to alert other road users to your presence.
This is clearly needed when the driver in front does not keep over to
the left when other traffic wants to pass (that's rule number 1).
Where does it say this in the highway code?
Rule 110.
This sounds contrieved to me. Why does he need to know your present when
coming from behind. It's your job to keep safe distance to the car in
front. Or are you perhaps conveying a different message?
Its not contrived.
I also admit to being in the middle lane on occasions when I should
not, especially when I've just overtaken someone and can't see anyone
behind me.
If there's no one behind you - what's the problem? Don't feel too badly
about it!
This was probably a case where I was in another world and thought I
could catch up with another car in lane 1 without affecting anyone else
but stayed in the middle lane without further thought.
Post by Ian Jackson
However, it should be fairly automatic that you soon move leftwards -
unless by doing so, you're very soon going to have to move out again to
overtake. That way, you don't need to have to keep checking in your
mirrors quite as often - and this helps to make driving more stress free.
Post by Fredxxx
If someone does correctly view that I am in the wrong lane (hogging)
then I appreciate a flash to make it clear I am in the way and I'll
move over.
I feel deeply embarrassed when someone has to flash me!
Likewise.
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Fredxxx
Only someone with antisocial tendencies would take offence at a gentle
reminder.
Unfortunately, there's a lot of them about.
That does seem the case.
johannes
2017-08-13 16:14:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Nick Finnigan
Post by Fredxxx
When I drive a van I confess to either undertaking with a very careful
eye including ensuring there is an empty hard shoulder ahead, or simply
stay behind them on full beam after a couple of flashes.
Ones that stay in the middle lane after being flashed they typically
become unnerved and swerve a little. Shame there isn't a hotline to
report middle lane hogs. After say 10-20 complaints they get a free
driving retest and ban if they fail.
Hmmm. My advice is never to indicate anything unless it is traffic related,
i.e. an expected action. You never know in what spirit it's being received.
As far as I'm concerned, I certainly ignore any attempt to interfere if
it's not to do with traffic, and there is no rule which says you should
flash when you are frustrated, that's not a traffic rule. I don't know
the flasher, so why should I care?
You flash your headlamps to alert other road users to your presence.
This is clearly needed when the driver in front does not keep over to
the left when other traffic wants to pass (that's rule number 1).
What if there is no room at the left? What if the driver in front just
keep up with other drivers in his front, e.g. an overtaking lorry? Then
giving you room doesn't help you very much, you will get stuck just the
same.
Nick Finnigan
2017-08-13 16:42:34 UTC
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Post by Nick Finnigan
Post by Fredxxx
When I drive a van I confess to either undertaking with a very careful
eye including ensuring there is an empty hard shoulder ahead, or simply
stay behind them on full beam after a couple of flashes.
Ones that stay in the middle lane after being flashed they typically
become unnerved and swerve a little. Shame there isn't a hotline to
report middle lane hogs. After say 10-20 complaints they get a free
driving retest and ban if they fail.
Hmmm. My advice is never to indicate anything unless it is traffic related,
i.e. an expected action. You never know in what spirit it's being received.
As far as I'm concerned, I certainly ignore any attempt to interfere if
it's not to do with traffic, and there is no rule which says you should
flash when you are frustrated, that's not a traffic rule. I don't know
the flasher, so why should I care?
You flash your headlamps to alert other road users to your presence.
This is clearly needed when the driver in front does not keep over to
the left when other traffic wants to pass (that's rule number 1).
What if there is no room at the left? What if the driver in front just keep
up with other drivers in his front, e.g. an overtaking lorry? Then giving
you room doesn't help you very much, you will get stuck just the same.
The law does not list those as exceptions.
Ian Jackson
2017-08-13 18:33:27 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Nick Finnigan
Post by johannes
Post by Nick Finnigan
Post by Fredxxx
When I drive a van I confess to either undertaking with a very careful
eye including ensuring there is an empty hard shoulder ahead, or simply
stay behind them on full beam after a couple of flashes.
Ones that stay in the middle lane after being flashed they typically
become unnerved and swerve a little. Shame there isn't a hotline to
report middle lane hogs. After say 10-20 complaints they get a free
driving retest and ban if they fail.
Hmmm. My advice is never to indicate anything unless it is traffic related,
i.e. an expected action. You never know in what spirit it's being received.
As far as I'm concerned, I certainly ignore any attempt to interfere if
it's not to do with traffic, and there is no rule which says you should
flash when you are frustrated, that's not a traffic rule. I don't know
the flasher, so why should I care?
You flash your headlamps to alert other road users to your presence.
This is clearly needed when the driver in front does not keep over to
the left when other traffic wants to pass (that's rule number 1).
What if there is no room at the left? What if the driver in front
just keep up with other drivers in his front, e.g. an overtaking
lorry? Then giving you room doesn't help you very much, you will get
stuck just the same.
The law does not list those as exceptions.
I guess the law assumes you've got at least an ounce of common sense.
Some drivers don't.
--
ian
Fredxxx
2017-08-13 17:37:38 UTC
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Post by johannes
Post by Nick Finnigan
Post by Fredxxx
When I drive a van I confess to either undertaking with a very careful
eye including ensuring there is an empty hard shoulder ahead, or simply
stay behind them on full beam after a couple of flashes.
Ones that stay in the middle lane after being flashed they typically
become unnerved and swerve a little. Shame there isn't a hotline to
report middle lane hogs. After say 10-20 complaints they get a free
driving retest and ban if they fail.
Hmmm. My advice is never to indicate anything unless it is traffic related,
i.e. an expected action. You never know in what spirit it's being received.
As far as I'm concerned, I certainly ignore any attempt to interfere if
it's not to do with traffic, and there is no rule which says you should
flash when you are frustrated, that's not a traffic rule. I don't know
the flasher, so why should I care?
You flash your headlamps to alert other road users to your presence.
This is clearly needed when the driver in front does not keep over to
the left when other traffic wants to pass (that's rule number 1).
What if there is no room at the left?
You seem to be getting confused when the lane on the left is clear to
move into, and when it is not.
Harry Bloomfield
2017-08-20 11:21:32 UTC
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Raw Message
What if there is no room at the left? What if the driver in front just keep
up with other drivers in his front, e.g. an overtaking lorry? Then giving you
room doesn't help you very much, you will get stuck just the same.
I don't recall every being flashed from behind on a motorway. If the
middle lane is full, if I am towing (unable to move to L3) and there is
space on the left (especially a lot of space) and I am following an HGV
not making much progress in the middle lane and there are faster
vehicles building up behind me - I pull over to the left where there is
space.

It is basically much safer to have lots of room ahead of you and you
have much better sight lines in such circumstances, than nose to tail
in the middle lane.
Mike Scott
2017-08-14 07:48:08 UTC
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Raw Message
....
Post by Fredxxx
Ones that stay in the middle lane after being flashed they typically
become unnerved and swerve a little. Shame there isn't a hotline to
report middle lane hogs. After say 10-20 complaints they get a free
driving retest and ban if they fail.
==
If only ...
I caught the end of one of those endless NZ police programs last week. A
driver had been pulled over because his poor driving had been reported
earlier in the day... they had a quiet word with him about driving
standards. Sounded like an automatic procedure.

I like the idea of a bad driving hotline - 3 (say) adverse reports and
you get pulled over. After this Saturday on the M25, it seems *such* a
good idea.....
--
Mike Scott (unet2 <at> [deletethis] scottsonline.org.uk)
Harlow Essex
"The only way is Brexit" -- anon.
johannes
2017-08-13 13:58:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fredxxx
Post by newshound
Post by MrCheerful
Post by Ted
I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40905632
Motorway tuition should be compulsory. My instructor made me return
home by motorway from my sucessful test.
Motorway standards have dropped noticeably, partly, I believe, from
the introduction of lanes that become slip roads, encouraging the use
of lane 2 at least, just to remain on the same road.
Don't get me started on middle lane hogs. I'm very inclined to favour
the US system to allow passing on either side. OTOH you can easily get
ticketed for excessive lane changing over there.
We currently have the worst of all possible worlds with middle lane
hogs, relatively polite brits queuing up to pass legally leading to very
long tailbacks in middle and overtaking lanes, plus the 5% of aggressive
weavers and undertakers that piss us all off.
When I drive a van I confess to either undertaking with a very careful
eye including ensuring there is an empty hard shoulder ahead, or simply
stay behind them on full beam after a couple of flashes.
Ones that stay in the middle lane after being flashed they typically
become unnerved and swerve a little. Shame there isn't a hotline to
report middle lane hogs. After say 10-20 complaints they get a free
driving retest and ban if they fail.
I often see many more cars in the outer "fast" lane that in the middle
lane. Sometimes a huge gap in the middle lane with 5 cars in papallel
in the outside lane which could easily move over. Why are these drivers
not frawned upon? Why are only the middle lane drivers considered
dumb? Most accidents happens in the outside lane and this is because
they often tailgate. Last accident I saw on M4 involved 5 cars; nice new
car models which are now worse for wear...
MrCheerful
2017-08-13 14:23:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by johannes
Post by Fredxxx
Post by newshound
Post by MrCheerful
Post by Ted
I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40905632
Motorway tuition should be compulsory. My instructor made me return
home by motorway from my sucessful test.
Motorway standards have dropped noticeably, partly, I believe, from
the introduction of lanes that become slip roads, encouraging the use
of lane 2 at least, just to remain on the same road.
Don't get me started on middle lane hogs. I'm very inclined to favour
the US system to allow passing on either side. OTOH you can easily get
ticketed for excessive lane changing over there.
We currently have the worst of all possible worlds with middle lane
hogs, relatively polite brits queuing up to pass legally leading to very
long tailbacks in middle and overtaking lanes, plus the 5% of aggressive
weavers and undertakers that piss us all off.
When I drive a van I confess to either undertaking with a very careful
eye including ensuring there is an empty hard shoulder ahead, or simply
stay behind them on full beam after a couple of flashes.
Ones that stay in the middle lane after being flashed they typically
become unnerved and swerve a little. Shame there isn't a hotline to
report middle lane hogs. After say 10-20 complaints they get a free
driving retest and ban if they fail.
I often see many more cars in the outer "fast" lane
that is called the overtaking lane.
Ian Jackson
2017-08-13 15:49:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by MrCheerful
Post by johannes
Post by Fredxxx
Post by newshound
Post by MrCheerful
Post by Ted
I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40905632
Motorway tuition should be compulsory. My instructor made me return
home by motorway from my sucessful test.
Motorway standards have dropped noticeably, partly, I believe, from
the introduction of lanes that become slip roads, encouraging the use
of lane 2 at least, just to remain on the same road.
Don't get me started on middle lane hogs. I'm very inclined to favour
the US system to allow passing on either side. OTOH you can easily get
ticketed for excessive lane changing over there.
We currently have the worst of all possible worlds with middle lane
hogs, relatively polite brits queuing up to pass legally leading to very
long tailbacks in middle and overtaking lanes, plus the 5% of aggressive
weavers and undertakers that piss us all off.
When I drive a van I confess to either undertaking with a very careful
eye including ensuring there is an empty hard shoulder ahead, or simply
stay behind them on full beam after a couple of flashes.
Ones that stay in the middle lane after being flashed they typically
become unnerved and swerve a little. Shame there isn't a hotline to
report middle lane hogs. After say 10-20 complaints they get a free
driving retest and ban if they fail.
I often see many more cars in the outer "fast" lane
that is called the overtaking lane.
Apart from Lane 1. ALL lanes are 'overtaking' lanes.

Very occasionally, you see gantry signs showing the message "Keep to the
left, except when overtaking". I can't say it has any effect.

Despite the terms 'slow', 'fast' and 'overtaking' not having been used
since the early 60s, they are a long time in the dying. There's even a
current advert for Churchill insurance on LBC radio, where a broken-down
'lady' car says "Cars like me should be in the fast lane, and not on the
hard shoulder" - to which Churchill, the bulldog, replies "Oh YES!".
--
Ian
johannes
2017-08-13 16:05:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by MrCheerful
Post by johannes
Post by Fredxxx
Post by newshound
Post by MrCheerful
Post by Ted
I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40905632
Motorway tuition should be compulsory. My instructor made me return
home by motorway from my sucessful test.
Motorway standards have dropped noticeably, partly, I believe, from
the introduction of lanes that become slip roads, encouraging the use
of lane 2 at least, just to remain on the same road.
Don't get me started on middle lane hogs. I'm very inclined to favour
the US system to allow passing on either side. OTOH you can easily get
ticketed for excessive lane changing over there.
We currently have the worst of all possible worlds with middle lane
hogs, relatively polite brits queuing up to pass legally leading to very
long tailbacks in middle and overtaking lanes, plus the 5% of aggressive
weavers and undertakers that piss us all off.
When I drive a van I confess to either undertaking with a very careful
eye including ensuring there is an empty hard shoulder ahead, or simply
stay behind them on full beam after a couple of flashes.
Ones that stay in the middle lane after being flashed they typically
become unnerved and swerve a little. Shame there isn't a hotline to
report middle lane hogs. After say 10-20 complaints they get a free
driving retest and ban if they fail.
I often see many more cars in the outer "fast" lane
that is called the overtaking lane.
In practice, lane 1 is occupied by lorries and slower traffic. The
middle lane is occupied by middle speed ~70mph, and the outer lane
by faster traffic > 70mph. That's what happens, that's the normal
situation.

In the morning, as I see it, all these lanes are fairly well occupiped,
hence the choice of lane purely depends on your chosen speed, and the
opportunity to change lane either way.

If someone drive up too close, or appear to drive erratically, then I
just move over to a safe lane, no problem. On one occation that saved
me from being cought up in a sandwich.

I suppose I'm what you might call a "muppet".
Fredxxx
2017-08-13 17:40:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by johannes
Post by MrCheerful
Post by johannes
Post by Fredxxx
Post by newshound
Post by MrCheerful
Post by Ted
I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40905632
Motorway tuition should be compulsory. My instructor made me return
home by motorway from my sucessful test.
Motorway standards have dropped noticeably, partly, I believe, from
the introduction of lanes that become slip roads, encouraging the use
of lane 2 at least, just to remain on the same road.
Don't get me started on middle lane hogs. I'm very inclined to favour
the US system to allow passing on either side. OTOH you can easily get
ticketed for excessive lane changing over there.
We currently have the worst of all possible worlds with middle lane
hogs, relatively polite brits queuing up to pass legally leading to very
long tailbacks in middle and overtaking lanes, plus the 5% of aggressive
weavers and undertakers that piss us all off.
When I drive a van I confess to either undertaking with a very careful
eye including ensuring there is an empty hard shoulder ahead, or simply
stay behind them on full beam after a couple of flashes.
Ones that stay in the middle lane after being flashed they typically
become unnerved and swerve a little. Shame there isn't a hotline to
report middle lane hogs. After say 10-20 complaints they get a free
driving retest and ban if they fail.
I often see many more cars in the outer "fast" lane
that is called the overtaking lane.
In practice, lane 1 is occupied by lorries and slower traffic. The
middle lane is occupied by middle speed ~70mph, and the outer lane
by faster traffic > 70mph. That's what happens, that's the normal
situation.
It may be normal to you, but not to most drivers.
Post by johannes
In the morning, as I see it, all these lanes are fairly well occupiped,
hence the choice of lane purely depends on your chosen speed, and the
opportunity to change lane either way.
The argument here is when lane 1 is empty. Such conditions are not
comparable.
Post by johannes
If someone drive up too close, or appear to drive erratically, then I
just move over to a safe lane, no problem. On one occation that saved
me from being cought up in a sandwich.
I suppose I'm what you might call a "muppet".
Given you seem to accept that middle lane hogging is acceptable I
suspect that may well be the consensus here.
Ted
2017-08-13 17:58:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by johannes
Post by MrCheerful
Post by johannes
I often see many more cars in the outer "fast" lane
that is called the overtaking lane.
In practice, lane 1 is occupied by lorries and slower traffic. The
middle lane is occupied by middle speed ~70mph, and the outer lane
by faster traffic > 70mph. That's what happens, that's the normal
situation.
If you had to would you be prepared to put that on a police witness
statement?
Paul Cummins
2017-08-13 18:28:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by johannes
In practice, lane 1 is occupied by lorries and slower traffic. The
middle lane is occupied by middle speed ~70mph, and the outer lane
by faster traffic > 70mph. That's what happens, that's the normal
situation.
What Motorway do you drive on?
--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
Free 40 satoshi/min bitcoin mining
https://btcprominer.life/260604
Steve Walker
2017-08-13 22:35:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by johannes
Post by Fredxxx
Post by newshound
Post by MrCheerful
Post by Ted
I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40905632
Motorway tuition should be compulsory. My instructor made me return
home by motorway from my sucessful test.
Motorway standards have dropped noticeably, partly, I believe, from
the introduction of lanes that become slip roads, encouraging the use
of lane 2 at least, just to remain on the same road.
Don't get me started on middle lane hogs. I'm very inclined to favour
the US system to allow passing on either side. OTOH you can easily get
ticketed for excessive lane changing over there.
We currently have the worst of all possible worlds with middle lane
hogs, relatively polite brits queuing up to pass legally leading to very
long tailbacks in middle and overtaking lanes, plus the 5% of aggressive
weavers and undertakers that piss us all off.
When I drive a van I confess to either undertaking with a very careful
eye including ensuring there is an empty hard shoulder ahead, or simply
stay behind them on full beam after a couple of flashes.
Ones that stay in the middle lane after being flashed they typically
become unnerved and swerve a little. Shame there isn't a hotline to
report middle lane hogs. After say 10-20 complaints they get a free
driving retest and ban if they fail.
I often see many more cars in the outer "fast" lane that in the middle
lane. Sometimes a huge gap in the middle lane with 5 cars in papallel
in the outside lane which could easily move over.
At busy times, often the cars behind are not pulling in because they are
gaining on the car in the lane to the left and know that the lane behind
them is full. If they pull in, the gap wil close and when they catch up
to the slower vehicle, they will be totally unable to pull out again.

SteveW
johannes
2017-08-14 04:44:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve Walker
Post by johannes
Post by Fredxxx
Post by newshound
Post by MrCheerful
Post by Ted
I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40905632
Motorway tuition should be compulsory. My instructor made me return
home by motorway from my sucessful test.
Motorway standards have dropped noticeably, partly, I believe, from
the introduction of lanes that become slip roads, encouraging the use
of lane 2 at least, just to remain on the same road.
Don't get me started on middle lane hogs. I'm very inclined to favour
the US system to allow passing on either side. OTOH you can easily get
ticketed for excessive lane changing over there.
We currently have the worst of all possible worlds with middle lane
hogs, relatively polite brits queuing up to pass legally leading to very
long tailbacks in middle and overtaking lanes, plus the 5% of aggressive
weavers and undertakers that piss us all off.
When I drive a van I confess to either undertaking with a very careful
eye including ensuring there is an empty hard shoulder ahead, or simply
stay behind them on full beam after a couple of flashes.
Ones that stay in the middle lane after being flashed they typically
become unnerved and swerve a little. Shame there isn't a hotline to
report middle lane hogs. After say 10-20 complaints they get a free
driving retest and ban if they fail.
I often see many more cars in the outer "fast" lane that in the middle
lane. Sometimes a huge gap in the middle lane with 5 cars in papallel
in the outside lane which could easily move over.
At busy times, often the cars behind are not pulling in because they are
gaining on the car in the lane to the left and know that the lane behind
them is full. If they pull in, the gap wil close and when they catch up
to the slower vehicle, they will be totally unable to pull out again.
SteveW
But you can use the same argument for cars driving in the middle lane,
even more so.
Mike Tomlinson
2017-08-14 07:22:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by newshound
Don't get me started on middle lane hogs
I sometimes wish the matrix signs would change from nanny-state messages
like "don't phone and drive" or "speed kills" to "don't hog the fucking
middle lane"
--
(\_/)
(='.'=) "Between two evils, I always pick
(")_(") the one I never tried before." - Mae West
Chris Whelan
2017-08-14 07:50:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mike Tomlinson
Post by newshound
Don't get me started on middle lane hogs
I sometimes wish the matrix signs would change from nanny-state messages
like "don't phone and drive" or "speed kills" to "don't hog the fucking
middle lane"
In general, people are lazy, people are selfish, and people are stupid.

No amount of messages will change that.

Chris
--
Remove prejudice to reply.
Steve Walker
2017-08-13 00:09:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by MrCheerful
Post by Ted
I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40905632
Motorway tuition should be compulsory. My instructor made me return
home by motorway from my sucessful test.
One problem with making it compulsory is that there are many parts of
the country where simply getting to and from a motorway would take much
longer than an entire lesson slot.

I didn't have any problems with motorways, as I drove all over the place
at weekends with my father and did many, many miles on dual carriageways
which were very similar, but again, they are not available everywhere.
Post by MrCheerful
Motorway standards have dropped noticeably, partly, I believe, from the
introduction of lanes that become slip roads, encouraging the use of
lane 2 at least, just to remain on the same road.
Yes. It is very easy in heavy traffic to find that your lane exits and
then have a struggle to get over a lane when yours slows to a crawl, but
the next does not.

SteveW
Peter Hill
2017-08-13 08:47:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve Walker
Post by MrCheerful
Post by Ted
I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40905632
Motorway tuition should be compulsory. My instructor made me return
home by motorway from my sucessful test.
One problem with making it compulsory is that there are many parts of
the country where simply getting to and from a motorway would take much
longer than an entire lesson slot.
SteveW
Quite, I live in Burton upon Trent, A38 and A50 to the M1 is about 25
min. One junction up M1 and back to Burton would be a full hour. But
instructors often have back to back lessons the learner drives to pick
up the next student and then the next student drives them back home.
Only way to do full loop in 1 hour would mean shanghaiing the previous
student and being late for next pick-up.

Everyone being taught in the area gets to go on 70mph A38 though the top
of Burton. It has one of the most dangerous exit slip roads in the
country. The 20mph U turn on the north east exit gets a new barrier
every month and sometimes every week. There have been occasions when 3
people get to share the cost. It says SLOW, SLOW, SLOW and SLOW on the
road and they mean it. There are deaths about once a year at the
entrance to Claymills road and the A38 southbound slip.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.8376848,-1.6117312,279m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

Anyone from Great Yarmouth has a 1 hour 37 min trip to Cambridge to use
the M11. Duxford, Girton and back to Great Yarmouth is 186 miles taking
3 hours 37 min. Quadruple lesson just to drive 1 junction on M11.
Fredxxx
2017-08-13 12:46:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Hill
Post by Steve Walker
Post by MrCheerful
Post by Ted
I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40905632
Motorway tuition should be compulsory. My instructor made me return
home by motorway from my sucessful test.
One problem with making it compulsory is that there are many parts of
the country where simply getting to and from a motorway would take
much longer than an entire lesson slot.
SteveW
Quite, I live in Burton upon Trent, A38 and A50 to the M1 is about 25
min. One junction up M1 and back to Burton would be a full hour. But
instructors often have back to back lessons the learner drives to pick
up the next student and then the next student drives them back home.
Only way to do full loop in 1 hour would mean shanghaiing the previous
student and being late for next pick-up.
Everyone being taught in the area gets to go on 70mph A38 though the top
of Burton. It has one of the most dangerous exit slip roads in the
country. The 20mph U turn on the north east exit gets a new barrier
every month and sometimes every week. There have been occasions when 3
people get to share the cost. It says SLOW, SLOW, SLOW and SLOW on the
road and they mean it. There are deaths about once a year at the
entrance to Claymills road and the A38 southbound slip.
Anyone from Great Yarmouth has a 1 hour 37 min trip to Cambridge to use
the M11. Duxford, Girton and back to Great Yarmouth is 186 miles taking
3 hours 37 min. Quadruple lesson just to drive 1 junction on M11.
Forgive me, didn't the article say learners will be allowed on
motorways, not that it will be compulsory? As you say for many it would
not be practical.
Graham J
2017-08-13 13:46:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Fredxxx wrote:

[snip]
Post by Fredxxx
Forgive me, didn't the article say learners will be allowed on
motorways, not that it will be compulsory? As you say for many it would
not be practical.
Many of us think it should be compulsory.

In the same way as it should be compulsory to demonstrate several years
riding a motorbike before being able to apply to learn to drive a car.
--
Graham J
Theo
2017-08-13 22:34:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Hill
Anyone from Great Yarmouth has a 1 hour 37 min trip to Cambridge to use
the M11. Duxford, Girton and back to Great Yarmouth is 186 miles taking
3 hours 37 min. Quadruple lesson just to drive 1 junction on M11.
And to do that you'd spend a lot of time on the A11 and A14, which are not
much different to the northern M11, all being two-lanes-per-direction dual
carriageways (indeed the A14 is three in some places).

There's no hard shoulder on the dualled A roads and the junctions can be a
bit more ropey - generally it's more challenging to drive on one than a
motorway, especially when you get junctions like this:
https://goo.gl/maps/DAEaceCPvRq

Obviously the M25 past Heathrow (say) is a somewhat different animal, but
not everyone is able to go near a road like that.

Theo
Steve Walker
2017-08-13 22:42:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Hill
Post by Steve Walker
Post by MrCheerful
Post by Ted
I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40905632
Motorway tuition should be compulsory. My instructor made me return
home by motorway from my sucessful test.
One problem with making it compulsory is that there are many parts of
the country where simply getting to and from a motorway would take
much longer than an entire lesson slot.
SteveW
Quite, I live in Burton upon Trent, A38 and A50 to the M1 is about 25
min. One junction up M1 and back to Burton would be a full hour. But
instructors often have back to back lessons the learner drives to pick
up the next student and then the next student drives them back home.
Only way to do full loop in 1 hour would mean shanghaiing the previous
student and being late for next pick-up.
Everyone being taught in the area gets to go on 70mph A38 though the top
of Burton. It has one of the most dangerous exit slip roads in the
country. The 20mph U turn on the north east exit gets a new barrier
every month and sometimes every week. There have been occasions when 3
people get to share the cost. It says SLOW, SLOW, SLOW and SLOW on the
road and they mean it.
There is a great back-road in Ballyshannon in the Republic of Ireland,
the first road marking reads "SLOW" and next reads "SLOWER".

SteveW
Mike Tomlinson
2017-08-14 07:32:00 UTC
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Post by Steve Walker
There is a great back-road in Ballyshannon in the Republic of Ireland,
the first road marking reads "SLOW" and next reads "SLOWER".
I like that.

Drivers not used to the road would probably subconsciously note "SLOW"
and not think much of it, but "SLOWER" is sufficiently different for
them to take notice while conveying the same message.
--
(\_/)
(='.'=) "Between two evils, I always pick
(")_(") the one I never tried before." - Mae West
Davey
2017-08-14 09:19:35 UTC
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On Sun, 13 Aug 2017 23:42:09 +0100
Post by Steve Walker
Post by Peter Hill
Post by Steve Walker
Post by MrCheerful
Post by Ted
I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40905632
Motorway tuition should be compulsory. My instructor made me
return home by motorway from my sucessful test.
One problem with making it compulsory is that there are many parts
of the country where simply getting to and from a motorway would
take much longer than an entire lesson slot.
SteveW
Quite, I live in Burton upon Trent, A38 and A50 to the M1 is about
25 min. One junction up M1 and back to Burton would be a full hour.
But instructors often have back to back lessons the learner drives
to pick up the next student and then the next student drives them
back home. Only way to do full loop in 1 hour would mean
shanghaiing the previous student and being late for next pick-up.
Everyone being taught in the area gets to go on 70mph A38 though
the top of Burton. It has one of the most dangerous exit slip roads
in the country. The 20mph U turn on the north east exit gets a new
barrier every month and sometimes every week. There have been
occasions when 3 people get to share the cost. It says SLOW, SLOW,
SLOW and SLOW on the road and they mean it.
There is a great back-road in Ballyshannon in the Republic of
Ireland, the first road marking reads "SLOW" and next reads "SLOWER".
SteveW
When they built the Alaska Highway, there was a 'Suicide Hill', with
signs saying 'Prepare to Meet They Maker'.

Loading Image...
--
Davey.
FMurtz
2017-08-14 04:41:09 UTC
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Post by Peter Hill
Post by Steve Walker
Post by MrCheerful
Post by Ted
I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40905632
Motorway tuition should be compulsory. My instructor made me return
home by motorway from my sucessful test.
One problem with making it compulsory is that there are many parts of
the country where simply getting to and from a motorway would take
much longer than an entire lesson slot.
SteveW
Quite, I live in Burton upon Trent, A38 and A50 to the M1 is about 25
min. One junction up M1 and back to Burton would be a full hour. But
instructors often have back to back lessons the learner drives to pick
up the next student and then the next student drives them back home.
Only way to do full loop in 1 hour would mean shanghaiing the previous
student and being late for next pick-up.
Everyone being taught in the area gets to go on 70mph A38 though the top
of Burton. It has one of the most dangerous exit slip roads in the
country. The 20mph U turn on the north east exit gets a new barrier
every month and sometimes every week. There have been occasions when 3
people get to share the cost. It says SLOW, SLOW, SLOW and SLOW on the
road and they mean it. There are deaths about once a year at the
entrance to Claymills road and the A38 southbound slip.
Anyone from Great Yarmouth has a 1 hour 37 min trip to Cambridge to use
the M11. Duxford, Girton and back to Great Yarmouth is 186 miles taking
3 hours 37 min. Quadruple lesson just to drive 1 junction on M11.
Is all your learning done only with instructors, here a small portion is
with paid instructors the majority is with licensed family members
beside them after initial proper instruction then they drive anywhere
and everywhere, family outings, down to shops etc.
Mike Scott
2017-08-14 08:07:46 UTC
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On 13/08/17 09:47, Peter Hill wrote:
....
Post by Peter Hill
Everyone being taught in the area gets to go on 70mph A38 though the top
of Burton. It has one of the most dangerous exit slip roads in the
country. The 20mph U turn on the north east exit gets a new barrier
every month and sometimes every week. There have been occasions when 3
people get to share the cost. It says SLOW, SLOW, SLOW and SLOW on the
road and they mean it. There are deaths about once a year at the
entrance to Claymills road and the A38 southbound slip.
About as nasty-looking as the entry slip from Mill Road onto the W-bound
A11 (70+mph typical speeds)
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.1714692,0.2811576,807m/data=!3m1!1e3
A viciously approach sharp bend, restricted view, and no real slip road.
Post by Peter Hill
Anyone from Great Yarmouth has a 1 hour 37 min trip to Cambridge to use
the M11. Duxford, Girton and back to Great Yarmouth is 186 miles taking
3 hours 37 min. Quadruple lesson just to drive 1 junction on M11.
I learned to drive many years ago in Lowestoft.... my introduction to
motorway driving was the M11/M25 on Christmas Eve. A bit of a shock.
--
Mike Scott (unet2 <at> [deletethis] scottsonline.org.uk)
Harlow Essex
"The only way is Brexit" -- anon.
Harry Bloomfield
2017-08-26 08:49:53 UTC
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Post by Mike Scott
I learned to drive many years ago in Lowestoft.... my introduction to
motorway driving was the M11/M25 on Christmas Eve. A bit of a shock.
I learned to drive, before motorways were common. My introduction to
motorways was one of how much easier / safer they were to drive upon.
jew pedophile Ron Jacobson (jew pedophile Baruch 'Barry' Shein's jew aliash)
2017-08-26 13:08:04 UTC
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On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 09:49:53 +0100, Harry Bloomfield
Post by Harry Bloomfield
Post by Mike Scott
I learned to drive many years ago in Lowestoft.... my introduction to
motorway driving was the M11/M25 on Christmas Eve. A bit of a shock.
I learned to drive, before motorways were common. My introduction to
motorways was one of how much easier / safer they were to drive upon.
Hmmm...Bloomfield, Blumfeld....is jewish, this name?
- -

" I don't even have the heart to tell him I've never infested
Arizona."
- Klaun Shittinb'ricks (1940 - ), acknowledging that he lied
from the very beginning, A jew scam, as expected

Iudaei orbem terrarum infestant.
- correct Latin

"Die Juden sind unser Unglück!"
- Heinrich von Treitschke (1834 - 1896)

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out
because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade
Unionists, and I did not speak out because I was not a Trade
Unionist. Then they came for the jews, and I did not speak out
because I did not give a shit. Then they came for me and there
wasn't a single commie bastard left to speak for me."
- Martin Niemöller (1892 - 1984)

Illuc nisi Dei gratia vadam.
- Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe (? - )
Sick old pedo Andrew "Andrzej" Baron (aka "Ron Jacobson"/etc)
2017-08-26 15:11:55 UTC
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In article <***@4ax.com>,
A shiteating cowardly nazoid sub-louse PEDO named Andrew "Andrzej"
Post by jew pedophile Ron Jacobson (jew pedophile Baruch 'Barry' Shein's jew aliash)
Hmmm...Bloomfield, Blumfeld....is jewish, this name?
Hmm... sick old pedo Andrew "Andrzej" Baron, aka "Ron Jacobson" aka "The Revd
Terence Fformby-Smythe"... had posted in Polish. Why?

http://tinyurl.com/pgrdzpd

http://tinyurl.com/q8h68dr

etc. etc. etc.

LOL!
The Peeler
2017-08-26 15:53:47 UTC
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On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 06:08:04 -0700, serbian bitch Razovic, the resident
psychopath of sci and scj and Usenet's famous sexual cripple, making an ass
of herself as "jew pedophile Ron Jacobson (jew pedophile Baruch 'Barry'
Post by jew pedophile Ron Jacobson (jew pedophile Baruch 'Barry' Shein's jew aliash)
Post by Harry Bloomfield
I learned to drive, before motorways were common. My introduction to
motorways was one of how much easier / safer they were to drive upon.
Hmmm...Bloomfield, Blumfeld....is jewish, this name?
Hmmm ...psychosis in full BLOOM already again, dumb anal Razovic? <BG>
--
Retarded, anal, subnormal and extremely proud of it: our resident
psychopath, dumb serbian bitch G. Razovic (aka "The Rectum").
johannes
2017-08-13 16:30:18 UTC
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Post by Steve Walker
Post by MrCheerful
Post by Ted
I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40905632
Motorway tuition should be compulsory. My instructor made me return
home by motorway from my sucessful test.
One problem with making it compulsory is that there are many parts of
the country where simply getting to and from a motorway would take much
longer than an entire lesson slot.
I didn't have any problems with motorways, as I drove all over the place
at weekends with my father and did many, many miles on dual carriageways
which were very similar, but again, they are not available everywhere.
Post by MrCheerful
Motorway standards have dropped noticeably, partly, I believe, from
the introduction of lanes that become slip roads, encouraging the use
of lane 2 at least, just to remain on the same road.
Yes. It is very easy in heavy traffic to find that your lane exits and
then have a struggle to get over a lane when yours slows to a crawl, but
the next does not.
SteveW
One of the worst exit lanes is from M4 Exit 4B coming from west and
joining M25 Junc 15 both North and South. Hence that sliproad
accomulate exit traffic into M25 in both directions, so it becomes very
long. Some drivers hate to queue and try to squeeze into the middle
often causing accidents. I see that accident about once a week. Well
you can blame one careless idiot, but it affects others, hence 50% of
drivers involved gets their cars damaged on this sliproad through no
fault of their own. Bad motorway design.
Chris Whelan
2017-08-13 06:59:08 UTC
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MrCheerful wrote:

[...]
Post by MrCheerful
Motorway standards have dropped noticeably, partly, I believe, from the
introduction of lanes that become slip roads, encouraging the use of
lane 2 at least, just to remain on the same road.
One reason I find difficulty with junctions of this type is the lack of
consistent signage and road markings.

The 'smart' motorways use these types of junction almost exclusively, and
will lead to even more drivers staying in lane 2 when they shouldn't.

Chris
--
Remove prejudice to reply.
JNugent
2017-08-13 14:01:42 UTC
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Post by Chris Whelan
[...]
Post by MrCheerful
Motorway standards have dropped noticeably, partly, I believe, from the
introduction of lanes that become slip roads, encouraging the use of
lane 2 at least, just to remain on the same road.
One reason I find difficulty with junctions of this type is the lack of
consistent signage and road markings.
The 'smart' motorways use these types of junction almost exclusively, and
will lead to even more drivers staying in lane 2 when they shouldn't.
I like the California solution to this problem: the nearside
(right-most) lane is signed either

(a) "Right lane MUST exit" or

(b) "Thru traffic OK"...

...so you know whether you can stay in that lane or not.

That generally-demotic style of road signing is a real change from our
prescriptive system.
Ian Jackson
2017-08-13 16:03:17 UTC
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Post by JNugent
Post by Chris Whelan
[...]
Post by MrCheerful
Motorway standards have dropped noticeably, partly, I believe, from the
introduction of lanes that become slip roads, encouraging the use of
lane 2 at least, just to remain on the same road.
One reason I find difficulty with junctions of this type is the lack of
consistent signage and road markings.
The 'smart' motorways use these types of junction almost
exclusively, and
will lead to even more drivers staying in lane 2 when they shouldn't.
I like the California solution to this problem: the nearside
(right-most) lane is signed either
(a) "Right lane MUST exit" or
(b) "Thru traffic OK"...
...so you know whether you can stay in that lane or not.
That generally-demotic style of road signing is a real change from our
prescriptive system.
When it comes to roads, the American have quite a lot of good ideas,
such as 'turning right on red', x5 speed limits (which are often more
appropriate than our x0's) etc. We should trade them, and let them have
a few mini-roundabouts in exchange
--
Ian
Ted
2017-08-13 14:54:22 UTC
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Post by MrCheerful
Post by Ted
I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40905632
Motorway tuition should be compulsory. My instructor made me return
home by motorway from my sucessful test.
That's very unusual. They usually don't let the pupil drive after a test
because they are either too excited or too upset.
Post by MrCheerful
Motorway standards have dropped noticeably, partly, I believe, from the
introduction of lanes that become slip roads, encouraging the use of
lane 2 at least, just to remain on the same road.
MrCheerful
2017-08-13 16:14:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ted
Post by MrCheerful
Post by Ted
I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40905632
Motorway tuition should be compulsory. My instructor made me return
home by motorway from my sucessful test.
That's very unusual. They usually don't let the pupil drive after a test
because they are either too excited or too upset.
Post by MrCheerful
Motorway standards have dropped noticeably, partly, I believe, from
the introduction of lanes that become slip roads, encouraging the use
of lane 2 at least, just to remain on the same road.
That driving instructor (Neil Sullivan) was literally brilliant, I know
many people that he taught to be safe, competent drivers, including my
sisters and my wife and he would not allow you to dawdle around either.
Unfortunately he is now dead, but he had a very satisfied local base of
customers, purely on recommendation. He used his own car for tuition: a
bronze Mark 1 Escort 1300GT.
Ophelia
2017-08-13 09:37:18 UTC
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"Ted" wrote in message news:omns7p$eu9$***@dont-email.me...

I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40905632

==

I am not sure either given the way some drivers perform on the motorway.

Centre lane hogs are my greatest bug bear. Shall I overtake or undertake
...

I thought police were meant to be cracking down on this? It doesn't seem to
bother those I come up against:(

I liked this bit very much:

"learner drivers will be tested on their ability to use a sat nav."

Also:

"Drivers will also be expected to answer vehicle safety questions while on
the move and complete 20 minutes of independent driving rather than 10."

It might protect us against the young drivers who are having a laugh with
their pals or are otherwise distracted!
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk
R. Mark Clayton
2017-08-13 10:45:36 UTC
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Post by Ted
I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40905632
A good thing provided that in addition to the dual control & qualified instructor stated by DoT: -

Learners on motorways MUST have a minimum number of hours experience - no <25mph first lesson newbies.
No learners during the rush hour, Xmas and bank holidays.

We get a lot of learners round where I live. Mostly I tolerate them giving them time and space, but it really annoys me when a dumbo instructor takes a completely inexperienced driver out on main roads in the rush hour and then waste whole cycles in traffic lights trying to turn right or similar.
FMurtz
2017-08-14 04:20:23 UTC
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Post by Ted
I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40905632
The things you learn on NGs, that there are countries who bar learning
drivers from learning the very thing that they are supposed to be learning.
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