I like the EU

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390

Let's hope we implement this too.

kat

2018-08-31 10:36:49 UTC

Post by Yellow
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
Let's hope we implement this too.

Would you prefer winter time or summer time?

--
kat

Post by Yellow
^..^<

Pamela

2018-08-31 10:59:04 UTC

Post by Yellow
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
Let's hope we implement this too.

Would you prefer winter time or summer time?

Winter time gives those horrible dark evenings sometimes starting in
the late afternoon.

This is the sort of sensible change British lobby groups, such as
farmers and the Scots, would prevent politicians implementing. With EU
would help support it could get through.

BurfordTJustice

2018-08-31 11:47:13 UTC

"Pamela" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:***@81.171.92.183...
: On 11:36 31 Aug 2018, kat wrote:
:
: > On 31/08/2018 11:28, Yellow wrote:
: >>
: >> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
: >>
: >> Let's hope we implement this too.
: >>
: >
: > Would you prefer winter time or summer time?
:
: Winter time gives those horrible dark evenings sometimes starting in
: the late afternoon.
:
: This is the sort of sensible change British lobby groups, such as
: farmers and the Scots, would prevent politicians implementing. With EU
: would help support it could get through.
:

Yellow

2018-08-31 11:08:58 UTC

In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@hotmail.com
says...

Post by Yellow
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
Let's hope we implement this too.

Would you prefer winter time or summer time?

Summer, without a doubt, as it would stay lighter later which saves
power.

R. Mark Clayton

2018-08-31 11:59:49 UTC

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by Yellow
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
Let's hope we implement this too.

Would you prefer winter time or summer time?

Summer, without a doubt, as it would stay lighter later which saves
power.

Unlikely. It just means travelling to work / school in the cold (black iced roads) and dark and fog for months of the year. I remember the trial when I was at school. It was so dire that it was abandoned after two and a half years. This effect was particularly severe in the north and west of the UK, where it would be dark well after 9am during December and January.

OTOH BST makes for long light summer evenings, especially in Scotland.

There are three sorts of people: -

Larks - best in the morning.
Owls - best in the evening.
Self righteous larks - people who think owls are morally degenerate.

Lighter later campaigners are almost invariably the last.

Yellow

2018-08-31 17:35:36 UTC

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by Yellow
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
Let's hope we implement this too.

Would you prefer winter time or summer time?

Summer, without a doubt, as it would stay lighter later which saves
power.

Unlikely. It just means travelling to work / school in the cold (black iced roads) and dark and fog for months of the year.

It was an argument in the 70s, before the kids were all taken to school
nice and warm in 4 by 4s, but not any more.

Post by R. Mark Clayton
I remember the trial when I was at school. It was so dire that it
was abandoned after two and a half years.

It was in the 70s, before cosy cars, 24 hours society and concern about
energy conservation and climate change.

Post by R. Mark Clayton
This effect was particularly severe in the north and west of the UK,
where it would be dark well after 9am during December and January.

In these changing times, popular opinion is now not so bothered about it
not being light when they are in bed or otherwise not being able to use
the natural daylight usefully and instead are interested in what time it
gets dark - which with the current regime is 3:30pm on the south coast
and thirty minutes earlier in Inverness at worst case.

Post by R. Mark Clayton
OTOH BST makes for long light summer evenings, especially in Scotland.

It does indeed and if we have it all year round and we have an extra
hour of usable light every afternoon/evening in the winter too.

Some even argue for double summer time, all year round.

Post by R. Mark Clayton
There are three sorts of people: -
Larks - best in the morning.
Owls - best in the evening.
Self righteous larks - people who think owls are morally degenerate.
Lighter later campaigners are almost invariably the last.

LOL! You have that the wrong way round. It is usually the sanctimonious
types who just say "get up earlier and use the light in the morning".

But whatever each individual's opinion might be, we should do what the
majority supports.

kat

2018-08-31 21:00:16 UTC

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by Yellow
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
Let's hope we implement this too.

Would you prefer winter time or summer time?

Summer, without a doubt, as it would stay lighter later which saves
power.

Unlikely. It just means travelling to work / school in the cold (black iced roads) and dark and fog for months of the year.

It was an argument in the 70s, before the kids were all taken to school
nice and warm in 4 by 4s, but not any more.

Post by R. Mark Clayton
I remember the trial when I was at school. It was so dire that it
was abandoned after two and a half years.

It was in the 70s, before cosy cars, 24 hours society and concern about
energy conservation and climate change.

We could have light mornings and klids walking to school - and save energy that way!

Dark mornings will make sure they do get driven, even if they don't now. I do
see plenty walking, around here, and some on bikes, some by bus and car from
some distance away - it's a Catholic High School near me.

Post by R. Mark Clayton
This effect was particularly severe in the north and west of the UK,
where it would be dark well after 9am during December and January.

Post by R. Mark Clayton
OTOH BST makes for long light summer evenings, especially in Scotland.

It does indeed and if we have it all year round and we have an extra
hour of usable light every afternoon/evening in the winter too.
Some even argue for double summer time, all year round.

LOL! You have that the wrong way round. It is usually the sanctimonious
types who just say "get up earlier and use the light in the morning".
But whatever each individual's opinion might be, we should do what the
majority supports.

But is there a majority for it, one way or the other, here in the UK? It gets
suggested from time to time but doesn't happen which suggests there isn't, or
not a strong one.

--
kat

Post by Yellow
^..^<

Yellow

2018-09-01 02:17:00 UTC

In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@hotmail.com
says...

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by Yellow
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
Let's hope we implement this too.

Would you prefer winter time or summer time?

Summer, without a doubt, as it would stay lighter later which saves
power.

Unlikely. It just means travelling to work / school in the cold (black iced roads) and dark and fog for months of the year.

It was an argument in the 70s, before the kids were all taken to school
nice and warm in 4 by 4s, but not any more.

Post by R. Mark Clayton
I remember the trial when I was at school. It was so dire that it
was abandoned after two and a half years.

It was in the 70s, before cosy cars, 24 hours society and concern about
energy conservation and climate change.

We could have light mornings and klids walking to school - and save energy that way!

How would we enforce that?

<snip>

LOL! You have that the wrong way round. It is usually the sanctimonious
types who just say "get up earlier and use the light in the morning".
But whatever each individual's opinion might be, we should do what the
majority supports.

But is there a majority for it, one way or the other, here in the UK? It gets
suggested from time to time but doesn't happen which suggests there isn't, or
not a strong one.

Every year that goes by the arguments for the current scheme become
harder and harder to justify as the reasons for the original
implementation have melted away while recognising the affect it has on
mental health and older people who do lot like being out after dark.

It will be interesting to see how the support pans out, given a serious
proposal for change is really on the table.

kat

2018-09-01 20:41:06 UTC

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by Yellow
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
Let's hope we implement this too.

Would you prefer winter time or summer time?

Summer, without a doubt, as it would stay lighter later which saves
power.

Unlikely. It just means travelling to work / school in the cold (black iced roads) and dark and fog for months of the year.

It was an argument in the 70s, before the kids were all taken to school
nice and warm in 4 by 4s, but not any more.

Post by R. Mark Clayton
I remember the trial when I was at school. It was so dire that it
was abandoned after two and a half years.

It was in the 70s, before cosy cars, 24 hours society and concern about
energy conservation and climate change.

We could have light mornings and klids walking to school - and save energy that way!

How would we enforce that?

I don't suppose we could, but it just struck me as odd to think that switching
off a few lights while driving the kids to school was a planet saver.

--
kat

Post by Yellow
^..^<

Yellow

2018-09-02 00:10:54 UTC

In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@hotmail.com
says...

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by Yellow
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
Let's hope we implement this too.

Would you prefer winter time or summer time?

Summer, without a doubt, as it would stay lighter later which saves
power.

Unlikely. It just means travelling to work / school in the cold (black iced roads) and dark and fog for months of the year.

It was an argument in the 70s, before the kids were all taken to school
nice and warm in 4 by 4s, but not any more.

Post by R. Mark Clayton
I remember the trial when I was at school. It was so dire that it
was abandoned after two and a half years.

It was in the 70s, before cosy cars, 24 hours society and concern about
energy conservation and climate change.

We could have light mornings and klids walking to school - and save energy that way!

How would we enforce that?

I don't suppose we could, but it just struck me as odd to think that switching
off a few lights while driving the kids to school was a planet saver.

It is the afternoon/evenings where energy can be saved as most people
are up and about then, unlike in the early morning, so have to put the
lights on when it starts to be get dark.

Norman Wells

2018-09-02 07:50:54 UTC

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by Yellow
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
Let's hope we implement this too.

Would you prefer winter time or summer time?

Summer, without a doubt, as it would stay lighter later which saves
power.

Unlikely. It just means travelling to work / school in the cold (black iced roads) and dark and fog for months of the year.

It was an argument in the 70s, before the kids were all taken to school
nice and warm in 4 by 4s, but not any more.

Post by R. Mark Clayton
I remember the trial when I was at school. It was so dire that it
was abandoned after two and a half years.

It was in the 70s, before cosy cars, 24 hours society and concern about
energy conservation and climate change.

We could have light mornings and klids walking to school - and save energy that way!

How would we enforce that?

I don't suppose we could, but it just struck me as odd to think that switching
off a few lights while driving the kids to school was a planet saver.

It is the afternoon/evenings where energy can be saved as most people
are up and about then, unlike in the early morning, so have to put the
lights on when it starts to be get dark.

There is no evidence that there is any energy saving to be made by
fiddling around with clocks. The basic problem is the number of hours
of warm daylight per day, and that can't be altered except by towing the
UK south.

Besides, lighting only accounts on average for 3% of a home's total
energy consumption.

Yellow

2018-09-02 11:51:16 UTC

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by kat
We could have light mornings and klids walking to school - and save energy that way!

How would we enforce that?

I don't suppose we could, but it just struck me as odd to think that switching
off a few lights while driving the kids to school was a planet saver.

It is the afternoon/evenings where energy can be saved as most people
are up and about then, unlike in the early morning, so have to put the
lights on when it starts to be get dark.

There is no evidence that there is any energy saving to be made by
fiddling around with clocks.

It is common sense to realise that it uses energy to turn on a light and
that light is not needed when people are asleep.

Post by Norman Wells
The basic problem is the number of hours
of warm daylight per day, and that can't be altered except by towing the
UK south.

But we can decided how we want to used the daylight that we have - hence
we have time zones at all.

Post by Norman Wells
Besides, lighting only accounts on average for 3% of a home's total
energy consumption.

But it is not just homes that need to be considered and this website
says it is as much as 20% in industrial and commercial premises.

https://www.carbontrust.com/news/2014/04/challenging-the-accepted-
wisdom-around-leds-and-energy-efficiency/

Norman Wells

2018-09-02 14:21:08 UTC

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by kat
We could have light mornings and klids walking to school - and save energy that way!

How would we enforce that?

I don't suppose we could, but it just struck me as odd to think that switching
off a few lights while driving the kids to school was a planet saver.

It is the afternoon/evenings where energy can be saved as most people
are up and about then, unlike in the early morning, so have to put the
lights on when it starts to be get dark.

There is no evidence that there is any energy saving to be made by
fiddling around with clocks.

It is common sense to realise that it uses energy to turn on a light and
that light is not needed when people are asleep.

Then the obvious answer is to make for the population spend longer in bed.

Post by Norman Wells
The basic problem is the number of hours
of warm daylight per day, and that can't be altered except by towing the
UK south.

But we can decided how we want to used the daylight that we have - hence
we have time zones at all.

Yes, of course. At these latitudes, though, we don't waste any daylight
in winter. We work through all that we have. The waste of daylight
occurs in the other seasons when we get up well after the sun has risen,
and it gets dark well before bedtime. It would make sense to have the
clocks permanently attuned to summer daylight hours.

Post by Norman Wells
Besides, lighting only accounts on average for 3% of a home's total
energy consumption.

But it is not just homes that need to be considered and this website
says it is as much as 20% in industrial and commercial premises.
https://www.carbontrust.com/news/2014/04/challenging-the-accepted-
wisdom-around-leds-and-energy-efficiency/

I think commercial premises, which are mostly lit artificially anyway
for all the hours they operate, wouldn't notice any change in their
electricity consumption.

Yellow

2018-09-02 17:25:25 UTC

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by kat
We could have light mornings and klids walking to school - and save energy that way!

How would we enforce that?

I don't suppose we could, but it just struck me as odd to think that switching
off a few lights while driving the kids to school was a planet saver.

It is the afternoon/evenings where energy can be saved as most people
are up and about then, unlike in the early morning, so have to put the
lights on when it starts to be get dark.

There is no evidence that there is any energy saving to be made by
fiddling around with clocks.

It is common sense to realise that it uses energy to turn on a light and
that light is not needed when people are asleep.

Then the obvious answer is to make for the population spend longer in bed.

Shackles?

Post by Norman Wells
The basic problem is the number of hours
of warm daylight per day, and that can't be altered except by towing the
UK south.

But we can decided how we want to used the daylight that we have - hence
we have time zones at all.

I agree.

Post by Norman Wells
Besides, lighting only accounts on average for 3% of a home's total
energy consumption.

But it is not just homes that need to be considered and this website
says it is as much as 20% in industrial and commercial premises.
https://www.carbontrust.com/news/2014/04/challenging-the-accepted-
wisdom-around-leds-and-energy-efficiency/

I think commercial premises, which are mostly lit artificially anyway
for all the hours they operate, wouldn't notice any change in their
electricity consumption.

It depends on the premises and I agree shops and warehouses for example
might well have the lights on all the time. Not so much with offices, at
least not the ones I have worked in.

R. Mark Clayton

2018-09-03 08:53:04 UTC

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by kat
We could have light mornings and klids walking to school - and save energy that way!

How would we enforce that?

I don't suppose we could, but it just struck me as odd to think that switching
off a few lights while driving the kids to school was a planet saver.

It is the afternoon/evenings where energy can be saved as most people
are up and about then, unlike in the early morning, so have to put the
lights on when it starts to be get dark.

There is no evidence that there is any energy saving to be made by
fiddling around with clocks.

It is common sense to realise that it uses energy to turn on a light and
that light is not needed when people are asleep.

Then the obvious answer is to make for the population spend longer in bed.

Post by Norman Wells
The basic problem is the number of hours
of warm daylight per day, and that can't be altered except by towing the
UK south.

But we can decided how we want to used the daylight that we have - hence
we have time zones at all.

It might, but NOT the working day. IMO most people do not want to get up before dawn, which is not natural, and results in more dangerous morning journeys.

Post by Norman Wells
Besides, lighting only accounts on average for 3% of a home's total
energy consumption.

But it is not just homes that need to be considered and this website
says it is as much as 20% in industrial and commercial premises.
https://www.carbontrust.com/news/2014/04/challenging-the-accepted-
wisdom-around-leds-and-energy-efficiency/

I think commercial premises, which are mostly lit artificially anyway
for all the hours they operate, wouldn't notice any change in their
electricity consumption.

Yellow

2018-09-03 09:08:09 UTC

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by kat
We could have light mornings and klids walking to school - and save energy that way!

How would we enforce that?

I don't suppose we could, but it just struck me as odd to think that switching
off a few lights while driving the kids to school was a planet saver.

It is the afternoon/evenings where energy can be saved as most people
are up and about then, unlike in the early morning, so have to put the
lights on when it starts to be get dark.

There is no evidence that there is any energy saving to be made by
fiddling around with clocks.

It is common sense to realise that it uses energy to turn on a light and
that light is not needed when people are asleep.

Then the obvious answer is to make for the population spend longer in bed.

Post by Norman Wells
The basic problem is the number of hours
of warm daylight per day, and that can't be altered except by towing the
UK south.

But we can decided how we want to used the daylight that we have - hence
we have time zones at all.

It might, but NOT the working day. IMO most people do not want to get up before dawn, which is not natural, and results in more dangerous morning journeys.

You are wrong on that -

"For decades, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents has been
at the forefront of a crusade to give the UK an extra hour of evening
daylight - citing research that shows lighter nights would save 80 lives
and prevent more than 200 serious injuries on our roads each year."

https://www.rospa.com/campaigns-fundraising/current/lighter-evenings/

R. Mark Clayton

2018-09-03 09:58:39 UTC

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by kat
We could have light mornings and klids walking to school - and save energy that way!

How would we enforce that?

I don't suppose we could, but it just struck me as odd to think that switching
off a few lights while driving the kids to school was a planet saver.

It is the afternoon/evenings where energy can be saved as most people
are up and about then, unlike in the early morning, so have to put the
lights on when it starts to be get dark.

There is no evidence that there is any energy saving to be made by
fiddling around with clocks.

It is common sense to realise that it uses energy to turn on a light and
that light is not needed when people are asleep.

Then the obvious answer is to make for the population spend longer in bed.

Post by Norman Wells
The basic problem is the number of hours
of warm daylight per day, and that can't be altered except by towing the
UK south.

But we can decided how we want to used the daylight that we have - hence
we have time zones at all.

It might, but NOT the working day. IMO most people do not want to get up before dawn, which is not natural, and results in more dangerous morning journeys.

You are wrong on that -
"For decades, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents has been
at the forefront of a crusade to give the UK an extra hour of evening
daylight - citing research that shows lighter nights would save 80 lives
and prevent more than 200 serious injuries on our roads each year."
https://www.rospa.com/campaigns-fundraising/current/lighter-evenings/

Their data is flawed. Road accidents did fall during the 1968 - 71 experiment, but this was due to stricter drink driving laws (especially), seat belts and safer cars. Accidents in the morning (when most people are sober) went up.

"Analysis of accident data for the first two years of the experiment, published by HMSO in October 1970, indicated that while there had been an increase in casualties in the morning, there had been a substantially greater decrease in casualties in the evening, with a total of around 2,500 fewer people killed and seriously injured during the first two winters of the experiment,[10][11] at a time when about 1,000 people a day were killed or injured on the roads.[12][13] However, the period coincided with the introduction of drink-driving legislation; the estimates were later modified downwards in 1989.[11]

The trial was the subject of a House of Commons debate on 2 December 1970[14] when, on a free vote, the House of Commons voted by 366 to 81 votes to end the experiment.[15]
"

so you can see just how popular it wasn't.

Paul Cummins

2018-09-03 11:04:00 UTC

Post by R. Mark Clayton
Accidents in the morning (when most people are sober) went up.

You mean when most people THINK they are sober?

--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
====
Visit North Kent's 2nd biggest supplier of Sour Grapes
http://www.grapesdirect.co.uk

Norman Wells

2018-09-03 11:27:32 UTC

Post by R. Mark Clayton
It might, but NOT the working day. IMO most people do not want to get up before dawn, which is not natural, and results in more dangerous morning journeys.

You are wrong on that -
"For decades, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents has been
at the forefront of a crusade to give the UK an extra hour of evening
daylight - citing research that shows lighter nights would save 80 lives
and prevent more than 200 serious injuries on our roads each year."
https://www.rospa.com/campaigns-fundraising/current/lighter-evenings/

Their data is flawed.

But you know so much better of course. It's such a blessing that you're
here then.

Post by R. Mark Clayton
Road accidents did fall during the 1968 - 71 experiment, but this was due to stricter drink driving laws (especially), seat belts and safer cars. Accidents in the morning (when most people are sober) went up.
"Analysis of accident data for the first two years of the experiment, published by HMSO in October 1970, indicated that while there had been an increase in casualties in the morning, there had been a substantially greater decrease in casualties in the evening, with a total of around 2,500 fewer people killed and seriously injured during the first two winters of the experiment,[10][11] at a time when about 1,000 people a day were killed or injured on the roads.[12][13] However, the period coincided with the introduction of drink-driving legislation; the estimates were later modified downwards in 1989.[11]
The trial was the subject of a House of Commons debate on 2 December 1970[14] when, on a free vote, the House of Commons voted by 366 to 81 votes to end the experiment.[15]"
so you can see just how popular it wasn't.

You don't think, more than a generation on, that a second look at it
might be in order?

After all, it wasn't billed at the time as just a 'once in a generation'
thing, was it? And times have changed considerably since then,
especially as regards walking to school, waiting at bus stops etc.

R. Mark Clayton

2018-09-03 14:43:38 UTC

Post by R. Mark Clayton
It might, but NOT the working day. IMO most people do not want to get up before dawn, which is not natural, and results in more dangerous morning journeys.

You are wrong on that -
"For decades, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents has been
at the forefront of a crusade to give the UK an extra hour of evening
daylight - citing research that shows lighter nights would save 80 lives
and prevent more than 200 serious injuries on our roads each year."
https://www.rospa.com/campaigns-fundraising/current/lighter-evenings/

Their data is flawed.

But you know so much better of course. It's such a blessing that you're
here then.

Pity you didn't read on isn't it.

You don't think, more than a generation on, that a second look at it
might be in order?

Personally no, because I hated it. Places where the clocks are well forward are trying to get back to normal - Spain, especially its north west, wanted to return to GMT rather than CET.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/13/spain-plans-replace-nazi-time-zone-gmt/

Post by Norman Wells
After all, it wasn't billed at the time as just a 'once in a generation'
thing, was it? And times have changed considerably since then,
especially as regards walking to school, waiting at bus stops etc.

366 to 81 on a free vote - how do you think that happened?

Norman Wells

2018-09-03 16:45:10 UTC

Post by R. Mark Clayton
It might, but NOT the working day. IMO most people do not want to get up before dawn, which is not natural, and results in more dangerous morning journeys.

You are wrong on that -
"For decades, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents has been
at the forefront of a crusade to give the UK an extra hour of evening
daylight - citing research that shows lighter nights would save 80 lives
and prevent more than 200 serious injuries on our roads each year."
https://www.rospa.com/campaigns-fundraising/current/lighter-evenings/

Their data is flawed.

But you know so much better of course. It's such a blessing that you're
here then.

Pity you didn't read on isn't it.

You don't think, more than a generation on, that a second look at it
might be in order?

366 to 81 on a free vote - how do you think that happened?

In much the same way as Parliament voted 498 votes to 114, ie by an even
bigger majority, to trigger Article 50 and set our leaving the EU in motion.

And that was only 18 months ago, not half a century, so has much more
current relevance and authority. It seems utterly hypocritical of you
to support the earlier majority, apparently regarding it as valid for
all time, but reject the much more recent one that was actually billed
as being a 'once in a generation' decision.

kat

2018-09-03 20:42:28 UTC

Post by Norman Wells
You don't think, more than a generation on, that a second look at it
might be in order?

Portugal tried moving their clocks forward, for a while but reverted to GMT
when it proved a failure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Portugal

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1333760/Portugal-warns-Britain-We-switched-Berlin-Time-catastrophe.html

--
kat

Post by R. Mark Clayton
^..^<

Yellow

2018-09-03 23:53:32 UTC

In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@hotmail.com
says...

Post by Norman Wells
You don't think, more than a generation on, that a second look at it
might be in order?

Portugal tried moving their clocks forward, for a while but reverted to GMT
when it proved a failure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Portugal
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1333760/Portugal-warns-Britain-We-switched-Berlin-Time-catastrophe.html

That article is not quite right because, as you point out in another
post, it is does not instantly get light at dawn and dark at sunset at
our location on the planet.

So the claim "London would be in semi-darkness at 9am on the shortest
day of the year, December 21, and the sun would not appear in Carlisle
on that day until 9.34am." is untrue.

Civil Twilight is when the sun is 6 deg below the horizon and at this
point there is enough light to carry out day to day activities and on 21
December, centre of London, that starts at 7:23am GMT, so that would be
8:23am GMT+1. So not "semi-darkness" at 9am as The Daily Mail claims.

And in Carlisle, sunrise is at 07:57am GMT and Civil Twilight begins at
06:57am GMT, so enough light to go about your daily business from 7:57am
GMT+1.

tim...

2018-09-04 07:41:31 UTC

Post by Norman Wells
You don't think, more than a generation on, that a second look at it
might be in order?

Personally no, because I hated it. Places where the clocks are well
forward are trying to get back to normal - Spain, especially its north
west, wanted to return to GMT rather than CET.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/13/spain-plans-replace-nazi-time-zone-gmt/

Portugal tried moving their clocks forward, for a while but reverted to
GMT when it proved a failure.

they presumably did that because it's seen as convenient to be on the same
zone as Spain

But it's Spain that's in the wrong zone and is the one who should be moving

tim

TMS320

2018-09-03 18:41:10 UTC

Post by R. Mark Clayton
Their data is flawed. Road accidents did fall during the 1968 - 71
experiment, but this was due to stricter drink driving laws
(especially), seat belts and safer cars. Accidents in the morning
(when most people are sober) went up.
"Analysis of accident data for the first two years of the experiment,
published by HMSO in October 1970, indicated that while there had
been an increase in casualties in the morning, there had been a
substantially greater decrease in casualties in the evening, with a
total of around 2,500 fewer people killed and seriously injured
during the first two winters of the experiment,[10][11] at a time
when about 1,000 people a day were killed or injured on the
roads.[12][13] However, the period coincided with the introduction of
drink-driving legislation; the estimates were later modified
downwards in 1989.[11]

The key thing is that they compared morning and afternoon, which should
reduce the effect of other confounding factors. Even so, working
practices have changed over 45 years, the "rush hour" is now 4 or 5
hours and it starts long before dawn in winter.

Yellow

2018-09-03 19:00:36 UTC

Post by R. Mark Clayton
It might, but NOT the working day. IMO most people do not want to get up before dawn, which is not natural, and results in more dangerous morning journeys.

You are wrong on that -
"For decades, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents has been
at the forefront of a crusade to give the UK an extra hour of evening
daylight - citing research that shows lighter nights would save 80 lives
and prevent more than 200 serious injuries on our roads each year."
https://www.rospa.com/campaigns-fundraising/current/lighter-evenings/

during the first two winters of the experiment,[10][11] at a time when about 1,000 people a day were killed or injured on the roads.[12][13] However, the period coincided with the introduction of drink-driving legislation; the estimates were later modified downwards in 1989.[11]

Post by R. Mark Clayton
The trial was the subject of a House of Commons debate on 2 December 1970[14] when, on a free vote, the House of Commons voted by 366 to 81 votes to end the experiment.[15]
"
so you can see just how popular it wasn't.

1968?

The ROSPA data is a little more up-to-date than 1968.

1968!!! LOL!

You do realise 1968 was 50 years ago?

Norman Wells

2018-09-03 11:19:57 UTC

Post by Norman Wells
Yes, of course. At these latitudes, though, we don't waste any daylight
in winter. We work through all that we have. The waste of daylight
occurs in the other seasons when we get up well after the sun has risen,
and it gets dark well before bedtime. It would make sense to have the
clocks permanently attuned to summer daylight hours.

It might, but NOT the working day. IMO most people do not want to get up before dawn, which is not natural, and results in more dangerous morning journeys.

Most people don't want to work, which is not natural either. In
addition, most people don't want to drive home in the dark when the
useful day seems to have finished. It's just depressing if there's
little to look forward to.

If you have only 8 hours of daylight, and you have to be at work for 8
or 9 of those, something has to give, and it's either the morning
commute or the evening one.

The statistics quoted elsewhere in this thread seem to indicate that
more lives are saved on the roads if we opt for lighter evenings.

tim...

2018-09-03 14:01:45 UTC

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by kat
We could have light mornings and klids walking to school - and
save energy that way!

How would we enforce that?

I don't suppose we could, but it just struck me as odd to think that switching
off a few lights while driving the kids to school was a planet saver.

It is the afternoon/evenings where energy can be saved as most people
are up and about then, unlike in the early morning, so have to put the
lights on when it starts to be get dark.

There is no evidence that there is any energy saving to be made by
fiddling around with clocks.

It is common sense to realise that it uses energy to turn on a light and
that light is not needed when people are asleep.

Then the obvious answer is to make for the population spend longer in bed.

Post by Norman Wells
The basic problem is the number of hours
of warm daylight per day, and that can't be altered except by towing the
UK south.

But we can decided how we want to used the daylight that we have - hence
we have time zones at all.

It might, but NOT the working day. IMO most people do not want to get up
before dawn, which is not natural, and results in more dangerous morning
journeys.

but when you only have 7 hours of daylight

what choice do you have?

tim

R. Mark Clayton

2018-09-03 14:44:07 UTC

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by kat
We could have light mornings and klids walking to school - and
save energy that way!

How would we enforce that?

I don't suppose we could, but it just struck me as odd to think that
switching
off a few lights while driving the kids to school was a planet saver.

It is the afternoon/evenings where energy can be saved as most people
are up and about then, unlike in the early morning, so have to put the
lights on when it starts to be get dark.

There is no evidence that there is any energy saving to be made by
fiddling around with clocks.

It is common sense to realise that it uses energy to turn on a light and
that light is not needed when people are asleep.

Then the obvious answer is to make for the population spend longer in bed.

Post by Norman Wells
The basic problem is the number of hours
of warm daylight per day, and that can't be altered except by towing the
UK south.

But we can decided how we want to used the daylight that we have - hence
we have time zones at all.

It might, but NOT the working day. IMO most people do not want to get up
before dawn, which is not natural, and results in more dangerous morning
journeys.

but when you only have 7 hours of daylight
what choice do you have?
tim

Get up in the dark (ugh!) or stay up late.

Yellow

2018-09-03 19:56:58 UTC

Post by R. Mark Clayton
It might, but NOT the working day. IMO most people do not want to get up
before dawn, which is not natural, and results in more dangerous morning
journeys.

but when you only have 7 hours of daylight
what choice do you have?
tim

Get up in the dark (ugh!) or stay up late.

Anyone who starts work at 8 or 8:30am, which is not uncommon now
although once this was just a factory worker thing, is going to be
getting up in the dark through most of winter, regardless of what we do
with the clocks.

It is how it is and there is no point moaning about it.

kat

2018-09-02 21:24:44 UTC

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by kat
We could have light mornings and klids walking to school - and save energy that way!

How would we enforce that?

I don't suppose we could, but it just struck me as odd to think that switching
off a few lights while driving the kids to school was a planet saver.

It is the afternoon/evenings where energy can be saved as most people
are up and about then, unlike in the early morning, so have to put the
lights on when it starts to be get dark.

There is no evidence that there is any energy saving to be made by
fiddling around with clocks.

It is common sense to realise that it uses energy to turn on a light and
that light is not needed when people are asleep.

But just how many people are still asleep in the morning , given they have to
get to school and work? I know you reckoned you got out of the house in 30
minutes, but it took a lot more time than that to get everyone out of mine when
the children went to school.

So, November 30th, sunrise 7.39 here, in winter. Or 8.39 if we had "summer"
time. That is currently the end of registration ( 8.30 - 8.40 ) at the high
school mine attended. They walked to school - took around 20 minutes. So they
had to leave around 8.10 and would have got up, let's say 45 minutes before to
get them all through the bathroom. I would have got up 15 minutes before. that
7.10. Lights on for at least 30 minutes in winter time, or an hour in "summer"
time. (mr kat would already have left as he had a train to catch, that's
another 30 minutes of lights on, but that would happen either way )

Post by Norman Wells
The basic problem is the number of hours
of warm daylight per day, and that can't be altered except by towing the
UK south.

But we can decided how we want to used the daylight that we have - hence
we have time zones at all.

Post by Norman Wells
Besides, lighting only accounts on average for 3% of a home's total
energy consumption.

But it is not just homes that need to be considered and this website
says it is as much as 20% in industrial and commercial premises.
https://www.carbontrust.com/news/2014/04/challenging-the-accepted-
wisdom-around-leds-and-energy-efficiency/

Yes, the school would need lights is sunrise wasn't until after it starts.

--
kat

Post by Yellow
^..^<

Norman Wells

2018-09-03 07:50:01 UTC

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by kat
We could have light mornings and klids walking to school - and
save energy that way!

How would we enforce that?

I don't suppose we could, but it just struck me as odd to think that switching
off a few lights while driving the kids to school was a planet saver.

It is the afternoon/evenings where energy can be saved as most people
are up and about then, unlike in the early morning, so have to put the
lights on when it starts to be get dark.

There is no evidence that there is any energy saving to be made by
fiddling around with clocks.

It is common sense to realise that it uses energy to turn on a light and
that light is not needed when people are asleep.

But just how many people are still asleep in the morning , given they
have to get to school and work? I know you reckoned you got out of the
house in 30 minutes, but it took a lot more time than that to get
everyone out of mine when the children went to school.
So, November 30th, sunrise 7.39 here, in winter. Or 8.39 if we had
"summer" time. That is currently the end of registration ( 8.30 - 8.40
) at the high school mine attended. They walked to school - took around
20 minutes. So they had to leave around 8.10 and would have got up,
let's say 45 minutes before to get them all through the bathroom. I
would have got up 15 minutes before. that 7.10. Lights on for at least
30 minutes in winter time, or an hour in "summer" time. (mr kat would
already have left as he had a train to catch, that's another 30 minutes
of lights on, but that would happen either way )

Post by Norman Wells
The basic problem is the number of hours
of warm daylight per day, and that can't be altered except by towing the
UK south.

But we can decided how we want to used the daylight that we have - hence
we have time zones at all.

Post by Norman Wells
Besides, lighting only accounts on average for 3% of a home's total
energy consumption.

But it is not just homes that need to be considered and this website
says it is as much as 20% in industrial and commercial premises.
https://www.carbontrust.com/news/2014/04/challenging-the-accepted-
wisdom-around-leds-and-energy-efficiency/

Yes, the school would need lights is sunrise wasn't until after it starts.

Schools almost certainly need the lights on all day in the winter anyway.

Paul Cummins

2018-09-03 11:04:00 UTC

Post by Norman Wells
There is no evidence that there is any energy saving to be made

by fiddling around with clocks.
It is common sense to realise that it uses energy to turn on a
light and that light is not needed when people are asleep

Do you realise how much energy a modern lamp doesn't use?

My bedside lamp uses 2w. That means that it will cost me 16p for 500
hours use. Other lights in the house may be as much as 5w. But in real
terms, the lighting of my home costs me pennies.

My TV set and PC cost far more.

--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
====
Visit North Kent's 2nd biggest supplier of Sour Grapes
http://www.grapesdirect.co.uk

R. Mark Clayton

2018-09-01 10:15:34 UTC

SNIP

Post by R. Mark Clayton
Unlikely. It just means travelling to work / school in the cold (black iced roads) and dark and fog for months of the year.

It was an argument in the 70s, before the kids were all taken to school
nice and warm in 4 by 4s, but not any more.

The sun won't have cleared the fog, the black won't be visible and won't have melted...

Post by R. Mark Clayton
I remember the trial when I was at school. It was so dire that it
was abandoned after two and a half years.

It was in the 70s, before cosy cars, 24 hours society and concern about
energy conservation and climate change.

What was dire about it was the disruption to one's natural clock, in particular getting up before dawn.

Post by R. Mark Clayton
This effect was particularly severe in the north and west of the UK,
where it would be dark well after 9am during December and January.

Post by R. Mark Clayton
OTOH BST makes for long light summer evenings, especially in Scotland.

It does indeed and if we have it all year round and we have an extra
hour of usable light every afternoon/evening in the winter too.
Some even argue for double summer time, all year round.

Yes they want to alter people's natural behaviour to fit their model of what they think it should be. As it happens there was double summer time during three high simmer months during WWII, but for strategic reasons.

All that happens in places where legal time varies substantially from astronomical time (e.g. parts of Russia, Galicia) is that people adjust the times they do things - shops open later, people eat later in the evening and so on.

LOL! You have that the wrong way round. It is usually the sanctimonious
types who just say "get up earlier and use the light in the morning".
But whatever each individual's opinion might be, we should do what the
majority supports.

The UK trial was abandoned because the consultation showed that [most] people
hated it, but memories are short so every so often there is another misguided attempt to try it again.

I suppose Brexiteers will support this because it would be an edict from Brussels that most would heartily dislike and it would be given as another reason for a hard exit...

Ian Jackson

2018-09-01 10:23:41 UTC

Post by R. Mark Clayton
SNIP

Post by R. Mark Clayton
Unlikely. It just means travelling to work / school in the cold
(black iced roads) and dark and fog for months of the year.

It was an argument in the 70s, before the kids were all taken to school
nice and warm in 4 by 4s, but not any more.

The sun won't have cleared the fog, the black won't be visible and won't have melted...

Post by R. Mark Clayton
I remember the trial when I was at school. It was so dire that it
was abandoned after two and a half years.

It was in the 70s, before cosy cars, 24 hours society and concern about
energy conservation and climate change.

What was dire about it was the disruption to one's natural clock, in
particular getting up before dawn.

Post by R. Mark Clayton
This effect was particularly severe in the north and west of the UK,
where it would be dark well after 9am during December and January.

Post by R. Mark Clayton
OTOH BST makes for long light summer evenings, especially in Scotland.

It does indeed and if we have it all year round and we have an extra
hour of usable light every afternoon/evening in the winter too.
Some even argue for double summer time, all year round.

Yes they want to alter people's natural behaviour to fit their model of
what they think it should be. As it happens there was double summer
time during three high simmer months during WWII, but for strategic
reasons.
All that happens in places where legal time varies substantially from
astronomical time (e.g. parts of Russia, Galicia) is that people adjust
the times they do things - shops open later, people eat later in the
evening and so on.

LOL! You have that the wrong way round. It is usually the sanctimonious
types who just say "get up earlier and use the light in the morning".
But whatever each individual's opinion might be, we should do what the
majority supports.

The UK trial was abandoned because the consultation showed that [most] people
hated it, but memories are short so every so often there is another
misguided attempt to try it again.
I suppose Brexiteers will support this because it would be an edict
from Brussels that most would heartily dislike and it would be given as
another reason for a hard exit...

Yebbut..........
Isn't there talk of the EU simply letting each member country decide on
which time zone it wants to be in? If that is the case, claiming that it
is being forced on us (them) will simply be yet another Brexiteer
misrepresentation of what the EU does.

--
Ian

R. Mark Clayton

2018-09-01 10:31:46 UTC

Post by R. Mark Clayton
SNIP

Post by R. Mark Clayton
Unlikely. It just means travelling to work / school in the cold
(black iced roads) and dark and fog for months of the year.

It was an argument in the 70s, before the kids were all taken to school
nice and warm in 4 by 4s, but not any more.

The sun won't have cleared the fog, the black won't be visible and won't have melted...

Post by R. Mark Clayton
I remember the trial when I was at school. It was so dire that it
was abandoned after two and a half years.

It was in the 70s, before cosy cars, 24 hours society and concern about
energy conservation and climate change.

What was dire about it was the disruption to one's natural clock, in
particular getting up before dawn.

Post by R. Mark Clayton
This effect was particularly severe in the north and west of the UK,
where it would be dark well after 9am during December and January.

Post by R. Mark Clayton
OTOH BST makes for long light summer evenings, especially in Scotland.

It does indeed and if we have it all year round and we have an extra
hour of usable light every afternoon/evening in the winter too.
Some even argue for double summer time, all year round.

Yes they want to alter people's natural behaviour to fit their model of
what they think it should be. As it happens there was double summer
time during three high simmer months during WWII, but for strategic
reasons.
All that happens in places where legal time varies substantially from
astronomical time (e.g. parts of Russia, Galicia) is that people adjust
the times they do things - shops open later, people eat later in the
evening and so on.

LOL! You have that the wrong way round. It is usually the sanctimonious
types who just say "get up earlier and use the light in the morning".
But whatever each individual's opinion might be, we should do what the
majority supports.

The UK trial was abandoned because the consultation showed that [most] people
hated it, but memories are short so every so often there is another
misguided attempt to try it again.
I suppose Brexiteers will support this because it would be an edict
from Brussels that most would heartily dislike and it would be given as
another reason for a hard exit...

Most of the Brexit claims about the EU are misrepresentation, also known as lies - seen a ha'penny of the £350M per week anywhere? The government has already promised it half a dozen times - farmers EU subsidies to be maintained, 10k customs officer to be recruited, a home brew UK satellite system, help for business adversely affected etc. etc.

Norman Wells

2018-09-01 18:53:12 UTC

Post by R. Mark Clayton
Most of the Brexit claims about the EU are misrepresentation, also known as lies - seen a ha'penny of the £350M per week anywhere?

We're still paying our subs, silly. We haven't left yet. That amount
was the amount we 'send the EU a week'. We're still sending it. We
can't 'see' any of it until we stop paying it, can we?

Post by R. Mark Clayton
The government has already promised it half a dozen times - farmers EU subsidies to be maintained, 10k customs officer to be recruited, a home brew UK satellite system, help for business adversely affected etc. etc.

It has also promised more than that to the NHS, which is what the sum
was supposed to be for in the first place. No wonder you're so upset
that you can't even bring yourself to mention it. The government has
shot your fox, and left you nothing to complain about.

R. Mark Clayton

2018-09-02 10:23:22 UTC

Post by R. Mark Clayton
Most of the Brexit claims about the EU are misrepresentation, also known as lies - seen a ha'penny of the £350M per week anywhere?

We're still paying our subs, silly. We haven't left yet. That amount
was the amount we 'send the EU a week'. We're still sending it. We
can't 'see' any of it until we stop paying it, can we?

Which was why I continued: -

The government has promise money for all sorts of things, but it won't be coming from not paying the EU because the £350M pw does not and will not exist - that was a Leave lie.

Norman Wells

2018-09-02 14:22:42 UTC

Post by R. Mark Clayton
Most of the Brexit claims about the EU are misrepresentation, also known as lies - seen a ha'penny of the £350M per week anywhere?

We're still paying our subs, silly. We haven't left yet. That amount
was the amount we 'send the EU a week'. We're still sending it. We
can't 'see' any of it until we stop paying it, can we?

Which was why I continued: -

The government has promise money for all sorts of things, but it won't be coming from not paying the EU because the £350M pw does not and will not exist - that was a Leave lie.

If it's small change in the greater scheme of things, why do Remoaners
get so excited about it?

Ophelia

2018-09-02 16:16:46 UTC

Post by R. Mark Clayton
Most of the Brexit claims about the EU are misrepresentation, also known
as lies - seen a ha'penny of the £350M per week anywhere?

We're still paying our subs, silly. We haven't left yet. That amount
was the amount we 'send the EU a week'. We're still sending it. We
can't 'see' any of it until we stop paying it, can we?

Which was why I continued: -

Post by R. Mark Clayton
The government has already promised it half a dozen times - farmers EU
subsidies to be maintained, 10k customs officer to be recruited, a home
brew UK satellite system, help for business adversely affected etc. etc.

The government has promise money for all sorts of things, but it won't be
coming from not paying the EU because the £350M pw does not and will not
exist - that was a Leave lie.

If it's small change in the greater scheme of things, why do Remoaners
get so excited about it?

===

What else do they have?

kat

2018-09-01 20:49:41 UTC

Post by R. Mark Clayton
SNIP

Unlikely. It just means travelling to work / school in the cold >(black

iced roads) and dark and fog for months of the year.
It was an argument in the 70s, before the kids were all taken to school
nice and warm in 4 by 4s, but not any more.

The sun won't have cleared the fog, the black won't be visible and won't have melted...

I remember the trial when I was at school. It was so dire that it
was abandoned after two and a half years.

It was in the 70s, before cosy cars, 24 hours society and concern about
energy conservation and climate change.

What was dire about it was the disruption to one's natural clock, in
particular getting up before dawn.

This effect was particularly severe in the north and west of the UK,
where it would be dark well after 9am during December and January.

OTOH BST makes for long light summer evenings, especially in Scotland.

It does indeed and if we have it all year round and we have an extra
hour of usable light every afternoon/evening in the winter too.
Some even argue for double summer time, all year round.

Yes they want to alter people's natural behaviour to fit their model of what
they think it should be. As it happens there was double summer time during
three high simmer months during WWII, but for strategic reasons.
All that happens in places where legal time varies substantially from
astronomical time (e.g. parts of Russia, Galicia) is that people adjust the
times they do things - shops open later, people eat later in the evening and
so on.

There are three sorts of people: -
Larks - best in the morning.
Owls - best in the evening.
Self righteous larks - people who think owls are morally degenerate.
Lighter later campaigners are almost invariably the last.

LOL! You have that the wrong way round. It is usually the sanctimonious
types who just say "get up earlier and use the light in the morning".
But whatever each individual's opinion might be, we should do what the
majority supports.

The UK trial was abandoned because the consultation showed that [most] people
hated it, but memories are short so every so often there is another misguided
attempt to try it again.
I suppose Brexiteers will support this because it would be an edict from
Brussels that most would heartily dislike and it would be given as another
reason for a hard exit...

Yebbut..........
Isn't there talk of the EU simply letting each member country decide on which
time zone it wants to be in? If that is the case, claiming that it is being
forced on us (them) will simply be yet another Brexiteer misrepresentation of
what the EU does.

Indeed. That is why I asked Yellow which she preferred, GMT, or GMT+1, because
if we were still in the EU when ( if ) this comes about we would be free to
choose which to go for. It isn't a demand to have year round summer time for all.

In recent years I have heard suggestions we should match Europe time, though
quite how we can match all of them I do not know - but it seems to be something
those who would like GMT+1 and GMT+2 jump on to add their arguments. But even
Europe doesn't care about matching times, possibly because the northern
countries really don't want year round summer time as it doesn't work for them.
Or Scotland, or more westerly parts of the UK.

--
kat

Post by Ian Jackson
^..^<

Yellow

2018-09-02 00:15:14 UTC

In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@hotmail.com
says...

Post by Yellow
But whatever each individual's opinion might be, we should do what the
majority supports.

The UK trial was abandoned because the consultation showed that [most] people
hated it, but memories are short so every so often there is another misguided
attempt to try it again.
I suppose Brexiteers will support this because it would be an edict from
Brussels that most would heartily dislike and it would be given as another
reason for a hard exit...

Yebbut..........
Isn't there talk of the EU simply letting each member country decide on which
time zone it wants to be in? If that is the case, claiming that it is being
forced on us (them) will simply be yet another Brexiteer misrepresentation of
what the EU does.

Indeed. That is why I asked Yellow which she preferred, GMT, or GMT+1, because
if we were still in the EU when ( if ) this comes about we would be free to
choose which to go for. It isn't a demand to have year round summer time for all.
In recent years I have heard suggestions we should match Europe time, though
quite how we can match all of them I do not know - but it seems to be something
those who would like GMT+1 and GMT+2 jump on to add their arguments. But even
Europe doesn't care about matching times, possibly because the northern
countries really don't want year round summer time as it doesn't work for them.
Or Scotland, or more westerly parts of the UK.

The main thing here I think, for those of us who hate the changing of
the clocks, is to agree to stop that behaviour. The debate only then
needs to move on to which time zone to select.

tim...

2018-09-02 07:10:22 UTC

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by Yellow
But whatever each individual's opinion might be, we should do what the
majority supports.

The UK trial was abandoned because the consultation showed that [most] people
hated it, but memories are short so every so often there is another misguided
attempt to try it again.
I suppose Brexiteers will support this because it would be an edict from
Brussels that most would heartily dislike and it would be given as another
reason for a hard exit...

Yebbut..........
Isn't there talk of the EU simply letting each member country decide on which
time zone it wants to be in? If that is the case, claiming that it is being
forced on us (them) will simply be yet another Brexiteer
misrepresentation of
what the EU does.

Indeed. That is why I asked Yellow which she preferred, GMT, or GMT+1, because
if we were still in the EU when ( if ) this comes about we would be free to
choose which to go for. It isn't a demand to have year round summer time for all.
In recent years I have heard suggestions we should match Europe time, though
quite how we can match all of them I do not know - but it seems to be something
those who would like GMT+1 and GMT+2 jump on to add their arguments.
But even
Europe doesn't care about matching times, possibly because the northern
countries really don't want year round summer time as it doesn't work for them.
Or Scotland, or more westerly parts of the UK.

The main thing here I think, for those of us who hate the changing of
the clocks, is to agree to stop that behaviour. The debate only then
needs to move on to which time zone to select.

which gets you a 50-50 result, so you decide to compromise by inventing
summer time

tim

Yellow

2018-09-02 11:39:06 UTC

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by kat
Indeed. That is why I asked Yellow which she preferred, GMT, or

GMT+1,

Post by kat
because
if we were still in the EU when ( if ) this comes about we would be free to
choose which to go for. It isn't a demand to have year round summer time for all.
In recent years I have heard suggestions we should match Europe time, though
quite how we can match all of them I do not know - but it seems to be something
those who would like GMT+1 and GMT+2 jump on to add their arguments.
But even
Europe doesn't care about matching times, possibly because the northern
countries really don't want year round summer time as it doesn't work for them.
Or Scotland, or more westerly parts of the UK.

The main thing here I think, for those of us who hate the changing of
the clocks, is to agree to stop that behaviour. The debate only then
needs to move on to which time zone to select.

which gets you a 50-50 result, so you decide to compromise by inventing
summer time

50/50 for changing the clocks or not, or 50/50 on which time zone we
select if we stop?

tim...

2018-09-02 16:25:13 UTC

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by kat
Indeed. That is why I asked Yellow which she preferred, GMT, or

GMT+1,

Post by kat
because
if we were still in the EU when ( if ) this comes about we would be
free
to
choose which to go for. It isn't a demand to have year round summer
time
for all.
In recent years I have heard suggestions we should match Europe time, though
quite how we can match all of them I do not know - but it seems to be something
those who would like GMT+1 and GMT+2 jump on to add their arguments.
But even
Europe doesn't care about matching times, possibly because the northern
countries really don't want year round summer time as it doesn't work
for
them.
Or Scotland, or more westerly parts of the UK.

The main thing here I think, for those of us who hate the changing of
the clocks, is to agree to stop that behaviour. The debate only then
needs to move on to which time zone to select.

which gets you a 50-50 result, so you decide to compromise by inventing
summer time

50/50 for changing the clocks or not, or 50/50 on which time zone we
select if we stop?

50/50 for which times zone to select

tim

Norman Wells

2018-09-02 07:54:04 UTC

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by Yellow
But whatever each individual's opinion might be, we should do what the
majority supports.

The UK trial was abandoned because the consultation showed that [most] people
hated it, but memories are short so every so often there is another misguided
attempt to try it again.
I suppose Brexiteers will support this because it would be an edict from
Brussels that most would heartily dislike and it would be given as another
reason for a hard exit...

Yebbut..........
Isn't there talk of the EU simply letting each member country decide on which
time zone it wants to be in? If that is the case, claiming that it is being
forced on us (them) will simply be yet another Brexiteer misrepresentation of
what the EU does.

Indeed. That is why I asked Yellow which she preferred, GMT, or GMT+1, because
if we were still in the EU when ( if ) this comes about we would be free to
choose which to go for. It isn't a demand to have year round summer time for all.
In recent years I have heard suggestions we should match Europe time, though
quite how we can match all of them I do not know - but it seems to be something
those who would like GMT+1 and GMT+2 jump on to add their arguments. But even
Europe doesn't care about matching times, possibly because the northern
countries really don't want year round summer time as it doesn't work for them.
Or Scotland, or more westerly parts of the UK.

The main thing here I think, for those of us who hate the changing of
the clocks, is to agree to stop that behaviour. The debate only then
needs to move on to which time zone to select.

I vote for more daylight in the evenings, which is when most people have
their leisure time and can do more. So, for me, it's summer time all
year round or, even better double summer time (ie GMT +2).

Yellow

2018-09-02 11:51:56 UTC

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by Yellow
But whatever each individual's opinion might be, we should do what the
majority supports.

The UK trial was abandoned because the consultation showed that [most] people
hated it, but memories are short so every so often there is another misguided
attempt to try it again.
I suppose Brexiteers will support this because it would be an edict from
Brussels that most would heartily dislike and it would be given as another
reason for a hard exit...

Yebbut..........
Isn't there talk of the EU simply letting each member country decide on which
time zone it wants to be in? If that is the case, claiming that it is being
forced on us (them) will simply be yet another Brexiteer misrepresentation of
what the EU does.

Indeed. That is why I asked Yellow which she preferred, GMT, or GMT+1, because
if we were still in the EU when ( if ) this comes about we would be free to
choose which to go for. It isn't a demand to have year round summer time for all.
In recent years I have heard suggestions we should match Europe time, though
quite how we can match all of them I do not know - but it seems to be something
those who would like GMT+1 and GMT+2 jump on to add their arguments. But even
Europe doesn't care about matching times, possibly because the northern
countries really don't want year round summer time as it doesn't work for them.
Or Scotland, or more westerly parts of the UK.

The main thing here I think, for those of us who hate the changing of
the clocks, is to agree to stop that behaviour. The debate only then
needs to move on to which time zone to select.

That would get my vote too.

kat

2018-09-02 21:13:35 UTC

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by Yellow
But whatever each individual's opinion might be, we should do what the
majority supports.

The UK trial was abandoned because the consultation showed that [most] people
hated it, but memories are short so every so often there is another misguided
attempt to try it again.
I suppose Brexiteers will support this because it would be an edict from
Brussels that most would heartily dislike and it would be given as another
reason for a hard exit...

Yebbut..........
Isn't there talk of the EU simply letting each member country decide on which
time zone it wants to be in? If that is the case, claiming that it is being
forced on us (them) will simply be yet another Brexiteer misrepresentation of
what the EU does.

Indeed. That is why I asked Yellow which she preferred, GMT, or GMT+1, because
if we were still in the EU when ( if ) this comes about we would be free to
choose which to go for. It isn't a demand to have year round summer time for all.
In recent years I have heard suggestions we should match Europe time, though
quite how we can match all of them I do not know - but it seems to be something
those who would like GMT+1 and GMT+2 jump on to add their arguments. But even
Europe doesn't care about matching times, possibly because the northern
countries really don't want year round summer time as it doesn't work for them.
Or Scotland, or more westerly parts of the UK.

The main thing here I think, for those of us who hate the changing of
the clocks, is to agree to stop that behaviour. The debate only then
needs to move on to which time zone to select.

That would get my vote too.

Sunset where I live is after 9pm during July. After 10 is very late when you
have to get children to bed!

--
kat

Post by Yellow
^..^<

Norman Wells

2018-09-03 07:53:00 UTC

Post by Yellow
says...

In message

Post by Yellow
But whatever each individual's opinion might be, we should do what the
majority supports.

The UK trial was abandoned because the consultation showed that [most] people
hated it, but memories are short so every so often there is another misguided
attempt to try it again.
I suppose Brexiteers will support this because it would be an edict from
Brussels that most would heartily dislike and it would be given as another
reason for a hard exit...

Yebbut..........
Isn't there talk of the EU simply letting each member country decide on which
time zone it wants to be in? If that is the case, claiming that it is being
forced on us (them) will simply be yet another Brexiteer
misrepresentation of
what the EU does.

Indeed. That is why I asked Yellow which she preferred, GMT, or
GMT+1, because
if we were still in the EU when ( if ) this comes about we would be free to
choose which to go for. It isn't a demand to have year round
summer time for all.
In recent years I have heard suggestions we should match Europe time, though
quite how we can match all of them I do not know - but it seems to be something
those who would like GMT+1 and GMT+2 jump on to add their
arguments. But even
Europe doesn't care about matching times, possibly because the northern
countries really don't want year round summer time as it doesn't work for them.
Or Scotland, or more westerly parts of the UK.

The main thing here I think, for those of us who hate the changing of
the clocks, is to agree to stop that behaviour. The debate only then
needs to move on to which time zone to select.

That would get my vote too.

Sunset where I live is after 9pm during July. After 10 is very late
when you have to get children to bed!

And 4am is very early for them to get up. At these latitudes, they have
to be in bed for some hours of daylight, so why not when they're tired,
ie at the end of the day?

kat

2018-09-03 09:15:20 UTC

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by Yellow
But whatever each individual's opinion might be, we should do what the
majority supports.

The UK trial was abandoned because the consultation showed that [most] people
hated it, but memories are short so every so often there is another misguided
attempt to try it again.
I suppose Brexiteers will support this because it would be an edict from
Brussels that most would heartily dislike and it would be given as another
reason for a hard exit...

Yebbut..........
Isn't there talk of the EU simply letting each member country decide on which
time zone it wants to be in? If that is the case, claiming that it is being
forced on us (them) will simply be yet another Brexiteer
misrepresentation of
what the EU does.

Indeed. That is why I asked Yellow which she preferred, GMT, or GMT+1,
because
if we were still in the EU when ( if ) this comes about we would be free to
choose which to go for. It isn't a demand to have year round summer time
for all.
In recent years I have heard suggestions we should match Europe time, though
quite how we can match all of them I do not know - but it seems to be something
those who would like GMT+1 and GMT+2 jump on to add their arguments.
But even
Europe doesn't care about matching times, possibly because the northern
countries really don't want year round summer time as it doesn't work for them.
Or Scotland, or more westerly parts of the UK.

The main thing here I think, for those of us who hate the changing of
the clocks, is to agree to stop that behaviour. The debate only then
needs to move on to which time zone to select.

That would get my vote too.

Sunset where I live is after 9pm during July. After 10 is very late when you
have to get children to bed!

And 4am is very early for them to get up. At these latitudes, they have to be
in bed for some hours of daylight, so why not when they're tired, ie at the end
of the day?

Because getting them to go to bed is harder than getting them up in the morning!

Seriously, I have a daughter who has been living in Dublin the past year and
this summer it was very difficult getting her children to sleep. Dublin being
somewhat further west sunset is even later than here, so it's a fair example.

--
kat

^..^<

Norman Wells

2018-09-03 11:31:08 UTC

Post by Norman Wells
I vote for more daylight in the evenings, which is when most people have
their leisure time and can do more. So, for me, it's summer time all
year round or, even better double summer time (ie GMT +2).

That would get my vote too.

Sunset where I live is after 9pm during July. After 10 is very late
when you have to get children to bed!

And 4am is very early for them to get up. At these latitudes, they
have to be in bed for some hours of daylight, so why not when they're
tired, ie at the end of the day?

Because getting them to go to bed is harder than getting them up in the morning!

Then you should try harder. There's no reason why a small minority with
young children they can't cope with should dictate to the rest of
society when their leisure time should be.

Post by kat
Seriously, I have a daughter who has been living in Dublin the past year
and this summer it was very difficult getting her children to sleep.
Dublin being somewhat further west sunset is even later than here, so
it's a fair example.

That's the EU for you! Sorry, can't do anything about them.

Yellow

2018-09-03 19:52:57 UTC

That would get my vote too.

Sunset where I live is after 9pm during July. After 10 is very late
when you have to get children to bed!

And 4am is very early for them to get up. At these latitudes, they
have to be in bed for some hours of daylight, so why not when they're
tired, ie at the end of the day?

Because getting them to go to bed is harder than getting them up in the morning!

Then you should try harder. There's no reason why a small minority with
young children they can't cope with should dictate to the rest of
society when their leisure time should be.

You have put that in harsher tones than I might have, but I agree - we
should not all have our lives dictated to by people with small children
who have issues getting them to go to bed. Not that I see how it getting
dark at 10pm instead of 9pm would make life more difficult given bed
time is probably 7 or 8.

That's the EU for you! Sorry, can't do anything about them.

kat

2018-09-03 20:33:55 UTC

That would get my vote too.

Sunset where I live is after 9pm during July. After 10 is very late
when you have to get children to bed!

And 4am is very early for them to get up. At these latitudes, they
have to be in bed for some hours of daylight, so why not when they're
tired, ie at the end of the day?

Because getting them to go to bed is harder than getting them up in the morning!

Then you should try harder. There's no reason why a small minority with
young children they can't cope with should dictate to the rest of
society when their leisure time should be.

The very young aren't a problem, you carry them up and put them to bed, so it's
the 8 - 8.30 that is probably the worst.

But, you know, it doesn't get dark at 10pm. It takes a while after sunset to get
dark. Just how much light do people need in the evening for leisure?

--
kat

Post by Yellow
^..^<

Norman Wells

2018-09-03 21:27:25 UTC

That would get my vote too.

Sunset where I live is after 9pm during July. After 10 is very late
when you have to get children to bed!

And 4am is very early for them to get up. At these latitudes, they
have to be in bed for some hours of daylight, so why not when they're
tired, ie at the end of the day?

Because getting them to go to bed is harder than getting them up in the morning!

Then you should try harder. There's no reason why a small minority with
young children they can't cope with should dictate to the rest of
society when their leisure time should be.

The very young aren't a problem, you carry them up and put them to bed,
so it's the 8 - 8.30 that is probably the worst.
But, you know, it doesn't get dark at 10pm. It takes a while after
sunset to get dark. Just how much light do people need in the evening
for leisure?

Better to have it available for those who want it than just abandon it,
which is effectively what we do between 4 and 6 am.

Many people want to do things in the evening. It's their time for
socialising, sports and other activities.

Yellow

2018-09-03 23:23:10 UTC

In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@hotmail.com
says...

That would get my vote too.

Sunset where I live is after 9pm during July. After 10 is very late
when you have to get children to bed!

And 4am is very early for them to get up. At these latitudes, they
have to be in bed for some hours of daylight, so why not when they're
tired, ie at the end of the day?

Because getting them to go to bed is harder than getting them up in the morning!

Then you should try harder. There's no reason why a small minority with
young children they can't cope with should dictate to the rest of
society when their leisure time should be.

The very young aren't a problem, you carry them up and put them to bed, so it's
the 8 - 8.30 that is probably the worst.
But, you know, it doesn't get dark at 10pm. It takes a while after sunset to get
dark.

I know and have written the software for a website that calculates the
sunrise and sunset, civil twilight, nautical twilight and astronomical
twilight for an point on the planet, on any date, so I can also tell you
how to calculate it. :-)

Post by kat
Just how much light do people need in the evening for leisure?

You need to bear in mind that how we set the clock does not just dictate
the time light disappears on the longer days but also on the shorter
ones.

kat

2018-09-04 08:05:02 UTC

Post by Yellow
says...

That would get my vote too.

Sunset where I live is after 9pm during July. After 10 is very late
when you have to get children to bed!

And 4am is very early for them to get up. At these latitudes, they
have to be in bed for some hours of daylight, so why not when they're
tired, ie at the end of the day?

Because getting them to go to bed is harder than getting them up in the morning!

Then you should try harder. There's no reason why a small minority with
young children they can't cope with should dictate to the rest of
society when their leisure time should be.

The very young aren't a problem, you carry them up and put them to bed, so it's
the 8 - 8.30 that is probably the worst.
But, you know, it doesn't get dark at 10pm. It takes a while after sunset to get
dark.

Post by kat
Just how much light do people need in the evening for leisure?

You need to bear in mind that how we set the clock does not just dictate
the time light disappears on the longer days but also on the shorter
ones.

For sure, but we were talking about having nice long light summer evenings at
this point, not about the effects in winter! And I am still at a loss as to why
people need daylight at 10pm for leisure purposes.

--
kat

Post by Yellow
^..^<

tim...

2018-09-03 14:00:59 UTC

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by Yellow
But whatever each individual's opinion might be, we should do what the
majority supports.

The UK trial was abandoned because the consultation showed that [most] people
hated it, but memories are short so every so often there is another misguided
attempt to try it again.
I suppose Brexiteers will support this because it would be an edict from
Brussels that most would heartily dislike and it would be given as another
reason for a hard exit...

Yebbut..........
Isn't there talk of the EU simply letting each member country decide on which
time zone it wants to be in? If that is the case, claiming that it is being
forced on us (them) will simply be yet another Brexiteer
misrepresentation of
what the EU does.

Indeed. That is why I asked Yellow which she preferred, GMT, or GMT+1, because
if we were still in the EU when ( if ) this comes about we would be free to
choose which to go for. It isn't a demand to have year round summer
time for all.
In recent years I have heard suggestions we should match Europe time, though
quite how we can match all of them I do not know - but it seems to be something
those who would like GMT+1 and GMT+2 jump on to add their arguments.
But even
Europe doesn't care about matching times, possibly because the northern
countries really don't want year round summer time as it doesn't work for them.
Or Scotland, or more westerly parts of the UK.

The main thing here I think, for those of us who hate the changing of
the clocks, is to agree to stop that behaviour. The debate only then
needs to move on to which time zone to select.

That would get my vote too.

Sunset where I live is after 9pm during July. After 10 is very late when
you have to get children to bed!

And 4am is very early for them to get up. At these latitudes, they have
to be in bed for some hours of daylight, so why not when they're tired, ie
at the end of the day?

It's got to be a real PITA living in Western China

its clock time is three hours out from its solar time

tim

TMS320

2018-09-03 09:13:57 UTC

Sunset where I live is after 9pm during July. After 10 is very late
when you have to get children to bed!

Fit thicker curtains.

kat

2018-09-03 20:23:08 UTC

Sunset where I live is after 9pm during July. After 10 is very late when you
have to get children to bed!

Fit thicker curtains.

You have to get them into their rooms first!

--
kat

Post by TMS320
^..^<

Yellow

2018-09-03 23:24:40 UTC

In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@hotmail.com
says...

Sunset where I live is after 9pm during July. After 10 is very late when you
have to get children to bed!

Fit thicker curtains.

You have to get them into their rooms first!

"Time to go to bed now"

What has changed that this no longer works?

kat

2018-09-02 21:10:22 UTC

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by Yellow
But whatever each individual's opinion might be, we should do what the
majority supports.

The UK trial was abandoned because the consultation showed that [most] people
hated it, but memories are short so every so often there is another misguided
attempt to try it again.
I suppose Brexiteers will support this because it would be an edict from
Brussels that most would heartily dislike and it would be given as another
reason for a hard exit...

Yebbut..........
Isn't there talk of the EU simply letting each member country decide on which
time zone it wants to be in? If that is the case, claiming that it is being
forced on us (them) will simply be yet another Brexiteer misrepresentation of
what the EU does.

Indeed. That is why I asked Yellow which she preferred, GMT, or GMT+1, because
if we were still in the EU when ( if ) this comes about we would be free to
choose which to go for. It isn't a demand to have year round summer time for all.
In recent years I have heard suggestions we should match Europe time, though
quite how we can match all of them I do not know - but it seems to be something
those who would like GMT+1 and GMT+2 jump on to add their arguments. But even
Europe doesn't care about matching times, possibly because the northern
countries really don't want year round summer time as it doesn't work for them.
Or Scotland, or more westerly parts of the UK.

The main thing here I think, for those of us who hate the changing of
the clocks, is to agree to stop that behaviour. The debate only then
needs to move on to which time zone to select.

Yes. Personally the clock change doesn't worry me, possibly a good thing as I
seem to do it twice in the spring as we have been in Florida when they change,
and home by the time we change.:-) And, where I live, east of Greenwich, and
not in the north, either time zone is fine, what I don't want is double summer
time. When we tried it, that didn't feel right.

--
kat

Post by Yellow
^..^<

tim...

2018-09-02 07:09:18 UTC

Post by kat
Indeed. That is why I asked Yellow which she preferred, GMT, or GMT+1,
because if we were still in the EU when ( if ) this comes about we would
be free to choose which to go for. It isn't a demand to have year round
summer time for all.
In recent years I have heard suggestions we should match Europe time,
though quite how we can match all of them I do not know - but it seems to
be something those who would like GMT+1 and GMT+2 jump on to add their
arguments. But even Europe doesn't care about matching times, possibly
because the northern countries really don't want year round summer time as
it doesn't work for them.

Apparently Finland was one of the countries where their citizens most
disliked changing the clocks

but as it was a self selecting survey, perhaps the sample set was biased.
(well it almost certainly was biased, the question is, was that bias
significant?)

tim

Yellow

2018-09-02 11:37:26 UTC

Apparently Finland was one of the countries where their citizens most
disliked changing the clocks
but as it was a self selecting survey, perhaps the sample set was biased.
(well it almost certainly was biased, the question is, was that bias
significant?)

The bias, if that is the right word, favoured those who were aware there
was a survey and I have not seen anywhere how people were asked.

You say it was self-selecting - so have you seen how this survey was
carried out?

Yellow

2018-09-01 13:24:20 UTC

Post by Yellow
Some even argue for double summer time, all year round.

Yes they want to alter people's natural behaviour to fit their model
of what they think it should be.

What exactly is our "natural behaviour" when it comes to what time our
man-made clocks say with respect to when it gets dark?

Post by R. Mark Clayton
I suppose Brexiteers will support this because it would be an edict
from Brussels that most would heartily dislike and it would be given
as another reason for a hard exit...

LOL! I am as pleased as punch that Brussels have put this on the agenda
as it moves us one step further towards leaving those darn clocks alone!

R. Mark Clayton

2018-09-01 13:51:20 UTC

Post by Yellow
Some even argue for double summer time, all year round.

Yes they want to alter people's natural behaviour to fit their model
of what they think it should be.

What exactly is our "natural behaviour" when it comes to what time our
man-made clocks say with respect to when it gets dark?

Natural behaviour is to get up when it gets light.

Humans in northern latitudes have adapted to stay up after it goes dark in the winter and go to bed about 7 - 8 hours before it gets light again

Post by R. Mark Clayton
I suppose Brexiteers will support this because it would be an edict
from Brussels that most would heartily dislike and it would be given
as another reason for a hard exit...

LOL! I am as pleased as punch that Brussels have put this on the agenda
as it moves us one step further towards leaving those darn clocks alone!

TMS320

2018-09-01 19:51:26 UTC

Post by R. Mark Clayton
I remember the trial when I was at school. It was so dire that
it was abandoned after two and a half years.

It was in the 70s, before cosy cars, 24 hours society and concern
about energy conservation and climate change.

What was dire about it was the disruption to one's natural clock, in
particular getting up before dawn.

Post by Yellow
Some even argue for double summer time, all year round.

Yes, excellent idea.

Post by R. Mark Clayton
Yes they want to alter people's natural behaviour to fit their model
of what they think it should be. As it happens there was double
summer time during three high simmer months during WWII, but for
strategic reasons.

So those that want to stick with BST/GMT force others to shift twice a year.

Post by R. Mark Clayton
All that happens in places where legal time varies substantially from
astronomical time (e.g. parts of Russia, Galicia) is that people
adjust the times they do things - shops open later, people eat later
in the evening and so on.

That requires businesses, schools, transport, television etc to change
time when the clocks change. Which defeats the point of changing the clocks.

If you like it is as it is but we stayed with BST what stops you from
altering your personal time?

Incubus

2018-08-31 10:55:08 UTC

Post by Yellow
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
Let's hope we implement this too.

Was it not the case that farmers objected to the abolition of daylight savings
on the basis that it impedes their ability to socialise?

Yellow

2018-08-31 11:11:38 UTC

Post by Incubus

Post by Yellow
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
Let's hope we implement this too.

Was it not the case that farmers objected to the abolition of daylight savings
on the basis that it impedes their ability to socialise?

I thought some just objected to getting lighter later in the morning, by
the clock.

But that is surely old hat now and in any case, saving the planet and
people's power bills across the UK must surely trump that consideration.

BurfordTJustice

2018-08-31 11:47:47 UTC

"Yellow" <***@none.com.invalid> wrote in message news:***@News.Individual.NET...
: In article <pmb6qc$he$***@dont-email.me>, ***@gmail.com says...
: >
: > On 2018-08-31, Yellow <***@none.com.invalid> wrote:
: > >
: > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
: > >
: > > Let's hope we implement this too.
: >
: > Was it not the case that farmers objected to the abolition of daylight
savings
: > on the basis that it impedes their ability to socialise?
:
: I thought some just objected to getting lighter later in the morning, by
: the clock.
:
: But that is surely old hat now and in any case, saving the planet and
: people's power bills across the UK must surely trump that consideration.

kat

2018-08-31 15:23:44 UTC

Post by Incubus

Post by Yellow
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
Let's hope we implement this too.

Was it not the case that farmers objected to the abolition of daylight savings
on the basis that it impedes their ability to socialise?

I thought some just objected to getting lighter later in the morning, by
the clock.
But that is surely old hat now and in any case, saving the planet and
people's power bills across the UK must surely trump that consideration.

Hmm. I remember what my daughter said last winter... she's in Dublin, and on GMT
in winter it was pretty dark in the mornings. Obviously Eire can do what it
likes, but, in Aberdeen and Belfast the sun will rise at 9.20BST on November 30.
I just picked a day. I reckon they will use quite a bit of power getting up
and starting work/school, so I am not sure how that saves power. Bad enough at
8.40 where I live, but I don't have to get up!

--
kat

Post by Yellow
^..^<

Yellow

2018-08-31 17:39:16 UTC

In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@hotmail.com
says...

Post by Incubus

Post by Yellow
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
Let's hope we implement this too.

Was it not the case that farmers objected to the abolition of daylight savings
on the basis that it impedes their ability to socialise?

I thought some just objected to getting lighter later in the morning, by
the clock.
But that is surely old hat now and in any case, saving the planet and
people's power bills across the UK must surely trump that consideration.

I used to up and out in 30 minutes but as I started work at 7:30am, it
made no difference to me when it got light in the winter as it was well
after it did me any good, whatever the time.

In the afternoon however, I need the light on as soon as it gets dark,
regardless of where I was - home or at work.

Obviously everyone is a bit different.

BurfordTJustice

2018-08-31 11:47:30 UTC

"Incubus" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:pmb6qc$he$***@dont-email.me...
: On 2018-08-31, Yellow <***@none.com.invalid> wrote:
: >
: > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
: >
: > Let's hope we implement this too.
:
: Was it not the case that farmers objected to the abolition of daylight
savings
: on the basis that it impedes their ability to socialise?

Fredxx

2018-08-31 11:02:38 UTC

Post by Yellow
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
Let's hope we implement this too.

Historical attempts have been blocked by the Scottish.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8855910/Britains-clocks-could-move-forward-by-an-hour-if-Scotland-doesnt-object-to-the-dark.html

Do you think since it is an EU initiative they will change their mind?

BurfordTJustice

2018-08-31 11:48:06 UTC

"Fredxx" <***@nospam.com> wrote in message news:pmb78c$36e$***@dont-email.me...
: On 31/08/2018 11:28, Yellow wrote:
: >
: > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
: >
: > Let's hope we implement this too.
:
: Historical attempts have been blocked by the Scottish.
:
:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8855910/Britains-clocks-could-move-forward-by-an-hour-if-Scotland-doesnt-object-to-the-dark.html
:
: Do you think since it is an EU initiative they will change their mind?
:

BurfordTJustice

2018-08-31 11:46:44 UTC

"Yellow" <***@none.com.invalid> wrote in message news:***@News.Individual.NET...
:
: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
:
: Let's hope we implement this too.

Joe

2018-08-31 12:23:32 UTC

On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 07:46:44 -0400

Post by BurfordTJustice
: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
: Let's hope we implement this too.

Been there, done that.

"Ah, but it would be different this time!"

--
Joe

tim...

2018-08-31 14:54:37 UTC

Post by Joe
On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 07:46:44 -0400

Post by BurfordTJustice
: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
: Let's hope we implement this too.

Been there, done that.
"Ah, but it would be different this time!"

of course it would

kids don't walk to school anymore, they all get dropped of by mummy/daddy

tim

Joe

2018-08-31 15:17:23 UTC

On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 15:54:37 +0100

Post by Joe
On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 07:46:44 -0400

Post by BurfordTJustice
: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
: Let's hope we implement this too.

Been there, done that.
"Ah, but it would be different this time!"

of course it would
kids don't walk to school anymore, they all get dropped of by
mummy/daddy

So many more cars on the roads around schools at that time of day. Have
you seen the way parents park around schools if allowed?

--
Joe

abelard

2018-08-31 15:29:16 UTC

Post by Joe
On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 07:46:44 -0400

Post by BurfordTJustice
: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
: Let's hope we implement this too.

Been there, done that.
"Ah, but it would be different this time!"

of course it would
kids don't walk to school anymore, they all get dropped of by mummy/daddy

one of my workers has two children under 15 going into
hospital for gastric bands!

the parents are not too bad but they work

--
www.abelard.org

p-0''0-h the cat (coder)

2018-08-31 16:02:24 UTC

Post by abelard

Post by Joe
On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 07:46:44 -0400

Post by BurfordTJustice
: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
: Let's hope we implement this too.

Been there, done that.
"Ah, but it would be different this time!"

of course it would
kids don't walk to school anymore, they all get dropped of by mummy/daddy

one of my workers has two children under 15 going into
hospital for gastric bands!
the parents are not too bad but they work

We are running out of food. They will starve! Ask Norman! Panic!

Sent from my iFurryUnderbelly.
--
p-0.0-h the cat

Internet Terrorist, Mass sock puppeteer, Agent provocateur, Gutter rat,
Devil incarnate, Linux user#666, BaStarD hacker, Resident evil, Monkey Boy,
Certifiable criminal, Spineless cowardly scum, textbook Psychopath,
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the OVERCAT [The BEARPAIR are dead, and we are its murderers], lowlife troll,
shyster [pending approval by STATE_TERROR], cripple, sociopath, kook,
smug prick, smartarse, arsehole, moron, idiot, imbecile, snittish scumbag,
liar, total ******* retard, shill, pooh-seur, scouringerer, jumped up chav,
punk ass dole whore troll, religious maniac, lycanthropic schizotypal lesbian,
the most complete ignoid, joker, and furball.

NewsGroups Numbrer One Terrorist

Honorary SHYSTER and FRAUD awarded for services to Haberdashery.
By Appointment to God Frank-Lin.

Signature integrity check
md5 Checksum: be0b2a8c486d83ce7db9a459b26c4896

I mark any message from »Q« the troll as stinky

abelard

2018-08-31 16:03:54 UTC

Post by p-0''0-h the cat (coder)

On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 17:02:24 +0100, "p-0''0-h the cat (coder)"

Post by abelard

Post by Joe
On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 07:46:44 -0400

Post by BurfordTJustice
: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
: Let's hope we implement this too.

Been there, done that.
"Ah, but it would be different this time!"

of course it would
kids don't walk to school anymore, they all get dropped of by mummy/daddy

one of my workers has two children under 15 going into
hospital for gastric bands!
the parents are not too bad but they work

We are running out of food. They will starve! Ask Norman! Panic!

though it pains me, i'd rather ask you!

--
www.abelard.org

p-0''0-h the cat (coder)

2018-08-31 16:12:22 UTC

Post by p-0''0-h the cat (coder)

Post by abelard
On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 17:02:24 +0100, "p-0''0-h the cat (coder)"

Post by abelard

Post by Joe
On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 07:46:44 -0400

Post by BurfordTJustice
: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
: Let's hope we implement this too.

Been there, done that.
"Ah, but it would be different this time!"

of course it would
kids don't walk to school anymore, they all get dropped of by mummy/daddy

one of my workers has two children under 15 going into
hospital for gastric bands!
the parents are not too bad but they work

We are running out of food. They will starve! Ask Norman! Panic!

though it pains me, i'd rather ask you!

Take comfort in the fact that even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Crazy world aye. Gastric bands for 15 year old's. When I was 15 every
class had one fat kid but fat like overweight not morbidly obese. It's
shameful how so many kids have been stuffed like geese.

Sent from my iFurryUnderbelly.
--
p-0.0-h the cat

Internet Terrorist, Mass sock puppeteer, Agent provocateur, Gutter rat,
Devil incarnate, Linux user#666, BaStarD hacker, Resident evil, Monkey Boy,
Certifiable criminal, Spineless cowardly scum, textbook Psychopath,
the SCOURGE, l33t p00h d3 tr0ll, p00h == lam3r, p00h == tr0ll, troll infâme,
the OVERCAT [The BEARPAIR are dead, and we are its murderers], lowlife troll,
shyster [pending approval by STATE_TERROR], cripple, sociopath, kook,
smug prick, smartarse, arsehole, moron, idiot, imbecile, snittish scumbag,
liar, total ******* retard, shill, pooh-seur, scouringerer, jumped up chav,
punk ass dole whore troll, religious maniac, lycanthropic schizotypal lesbian,
the most complete ignoid, joker, and furball.

NewsGroups Numbrer One Terrorist

Honorary SHYSTER and FRAUD awarded for services to Haberdashery.
By Appointment to God Frank-Lin.

Signature integrity check
md5 Checksum: be0b2a8c486d83ce7db9a459b26c4896

I mark any message from »Q« the troll as stinky

TMS320

2018-08-31 19:57:58 UTC

Post by Joe
On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 07:46:44 -0400

Post by BurfordTJustice
: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
: Let's hope we implement this too.

Been there, done that.
"Ah, but it would be different this time!"

It will. Then people didn't have to hunt out all the instruction manuals
to find the magic button combinations for the 25 devices around the
house that don't automatically change. Or leave them an hour out for
half the year.

BurfordTJustice

2018-09-01 10:49:29 UTC

So the scots run the show.

The Empire is dead for a reason.

"Bod" <***@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:***@mid.individual.net...
: On 31/08/2018 21:09, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
: > On 8/31/2018 3:57 PM, TMS320 wrote:
: >
: >>>> :
: >>>> : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
: >>>> :
: >>>> : Let's hope we implement this too.
: >>>>
: >>> Been there, done that.
: >>>
: >>> "Ah, but it would be different this time!"
: >>
: >> It will. Then people didn't have to hunt out all the instruction
: >> manuals to find the magic button combinations for the 25 devices
: >> around the house that don't automatically change. Or leave them an
: >> hour out for half the year.
: >
: > I think it was proposed here last year or so. I'd like to just leave it
: > on summer time myself. There will always be complainers though.
: >
: > The debate has been going on for years in the UK as well.
: Most of us want permanent summer time, but the Scots keep vetoing it.
:
: --
: Bod

BurfordTJustice

2018-09-01 10:50:07 UTC

Where as you go around supporting all things darker.

"Bod" <***@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:***@mid.individual.net...
: On 01/09/2018 09:08, Joe wrote:
: > On Sat, 1 Sep 2018 07:15:48 +0100
: > Bod <***@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
: >
: >> On 31/08/2018 21:09, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
: >>> On 8/31/2018 3:57 PM, TMS320 wrote:
: >>>
: >>>>>> :
: >>>>>> : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
: >>>>>> :
: >>>>>> : Let's hope we implement this too.
: >>>>>>
: >>>>> Been there, done that.
: >>>>>
: >>>>> "Ah, but it would be different this time!"
: >>>>
: >>>> It will. Then people didn't have to hunt out all the instruction
: >>>> manuals to find the magic button combinations for the 25 devices
: >>>> around the house that don't automatically change. Or leave them
: >>>> an hour out for half the year.
: >>>
: >>> I think it was proposed here last year or so. I'd like to just
: >>> leave it on summer time myself. There will always be complainers
: >>> though.
: >> >
: >> > The debate has been going on for years in the UK as well.
: >> Most of us want permanent summer time, but the Scots keep vetoing it.
: >>
: >
: > I can't imagine why.
: >
: > They object to the darker mornings.
:
:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8855910/Britains-clocks-could-move-forward-by-an-hour-if-Scotland-doesnt-object-to-the-dark.html
:
: --
: Bod

BurfordTJustice

2018-09-01 10:50:47 UTC

Awww what a fucking pussified little crybaby.

"Fruitiest of Fruitcakes" <***@bungay.com> wrote in message news:***@news.giganews.com...
: On 1 Sep 2018, Joe wrote
: (in article<***@jresid.jretrading.com>):
:
: > On Sat, 1 Sep 2018 07:15:48 +0100
: > Bod <***@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
: >
: > > On 31/08/2018 21:09, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
: > > > On 8/31/2018 3:57 PM, TMS320 wrote:
: > > >
: > > > > > > >
: > > > > > > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
: > > > > > > >
: > > > > > > > Let's hope we implement this too.
: > > > > > Been there, done that.
: > > > > >
: > > > > > "Ah, but it would be different this time!"
: > > > >
: > > > > It will. Then people didn't have to hunt out all the instruction
: > > > > manuals to find the magic button combinations for the 25 devices
: > > > > around the house that don't automatically change. Or leave them
: > > > > an hour out for half the year.
: > > >
: > > > I think it was proposed here last year or so. I'd like to just
: > > > leave it on summer time myself. There will always be complainers
: > > > though.
: > > >
: > > > The debate has been going on for years in the UK as well.
: > > Most of us want permanent summer time
:
: You mean most of you who are too young to remember the last time we tried
it
: in the 1960s.
:
: I was at school in those days, and in mid-winter on a dull wet day it
: didn't get properly light until 10am. Traffic accident number rose because
: virtually everyone was going to work in the dark for at least 3 months of
the
: year (and the further north you lived, the longer the time period lasted
and
: the later it became light).
:
: Yes, it didn't get dark as early in the afternoons but that did not seem
: much of an advantage at the time.
:
: Eventually there were so many complaints, and probably a newspaper
campaign -
: I can't remember that much detail - that the whole idea of BST throughout
: the year was abandoned in 1970 and we started to put the clocks back to
GMT
: for the winter again.
:
: This stupid idea seems to come up each Autumn now, as more and more
: sawdust-heads believe they have come up with a "genius" way of teaching
: us 'stick with the old traditions' wrinklies a lesson in logic.
:
: I suppose when all us baby-boomers with a semblance of common sense have
died
: off; the know-all younger generations will get their way again, and have
to
: experience the same miserable dark mornings we did just to force them into
: abandoning the idea for another half century?
:
: Hey-ho
:
: > > , but the Scots keep vetoing it.
: >
: > I can't imagine why.
:
:

A. Filip

2018-08-31 11:52:30 UTC

Post by Yellow
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
Let's hope we implement this too.

How dare you to support following Putin's Russia lead! ;-)

--
A. Filip
| "We Americans, we're a simple people... but piss us off, and we'll
| bomb your cities." (Robin Williams, _Good Morning Vietnam_ )

Shitsack Moishe Goldberg

2018-08-31 12:19:40 UTC

Post by Yellow
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
Let's hope we implement this too.

Millions of people hate daylight saving time so Druncker proposes to
make it effective year-round??? LOL

The Peeler

2018-08-31 15:43:34 UTC

Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg

On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 05:19:40 -0700, serbian bitch Razovic, the resident
psychopath of sci and scj and Usenet's famous sexual cripple, making an ass
of herself as "jew pedophile Ron Jacobson (jew pedophile Baruch 'Barry'

Post by Yellow
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
Let's hope we implement this too.

Millions of people hate daylight saving time so Druncker proposes to
make it effective year-round??? LOL

Are you afraid it might effect your trolling 24/7, you unemployable
housebound useless idiot? <G>

--
The top 5 truths about poor dumb Razovic, our colostomy bag wearing resident
psychopath, aka "The Rectum":

the desperate psycho can't SLEEP anymore,
she can't get out of the house anymore,
she got NOBODY to talk to anymore,
she can't FUCK anymore,
she got no life outside Usenet AT ALL!

TMS320

2018-08-31 19:58:37 UTC

Post by Yellow
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
Let's hope we implement this too.

Well if we don't, let's switch to BST in February, not March. Whatever
the (spurious) argument for moving the clocks I can't fathom out why the
change is left so late.

Yellow

2018-08-31 20:56:10 UTC

Post by Yellow
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
Let's hope we implement this too.

Well if we don't, let's switch to BST in February, not March. Whatever
the (spurious) argument for moving the clocks I can't fathom out why the
change is left so late.

I agree with that and have noticed the USA have implemented a change in
the last couple of years meaning they have summer time for a least a
month longer than we do in the EU.

R. Mark Clayton

2018-09-01 12:12:20 UTC

Post by Yellow
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
Let's hope we implement this too.

Well if we don't, let's switch to BST in February, not March. Whatever
the (spurious) argument for moving the clocks I can't fathom out why the
change is left so late.

I agree with that and have noticed the USA have implemented a change in
the last couple of years meaning they have summer time for a least a
month longer than we do in the EU.

I didn't know that, and a link would be useful. Remember however that 49/50 US states are south of 49N and that almost all of the UK is north of 50N.

The change is offset in the UK to account for the astronomical day being earlier in the autumn and later in the spring, so the clocks go forward at the end of March and back at the end of October.

Unthinking lighter later fundies, think it should be on the equinoxes.

Yellow

2018-09-01 13:26:40 UTC

Post by Yellow
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
Let's hope we implement this too.

Well if we don't, let's switch to BST in February, not March. Whatever
the (spurious) argument for moving the clocks I can't fathom out why the
change is left so late.

I agree with that and have noticed the USA have implemented a change in
the last couple of years meaning they have summer time for a least a
month longer than we do in the EU.

I didn't know that, and a link would be useful.

Then go look for one. I am aware because I have relatives in the USA and
it has to be taken into account when we phone.

TMS320

2018-09-01 20:10:55 UTC

Post by Yellow
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
Let's hope we implement this too.

Well if we don't, let's switch to BST in February, not March.
Whatever the (spurious) argument for moving the clocks I can't
fathom out why the change is left so late.

I agree with that and have noticed the USA have implemented a
change in the last couple of years meaning they have summer time
for a least a month longer than we do in the EU.

I didn't know that, and a link would be useful. Remember however
that 49/50 US states are south of 49N and that almost all of the UK
is north of 50N.
The change is offset in the UK to account for the astronomical day
being earlier in the autumn and later in the spring, so the clocks
go forward at the end of March and back at the end of October.

There is some element in that but it does not justify making winter drag
on for a whole extra month.

London, (UTC times)
20th October sunrise 6:32, sunset 16:54
20th February sunrise 7:05, sunset 17:24
20th March sunrise 6:04, sunset 18:13

Manchester
20th October sunrise 6:45, sunset 17:01
20th February sunrise 7:17, sunset 17:28
20th March sunrise 6:12, sunset 18:21

tim...

2018-09-02 07:05:16 UTC

Post by Yellow
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
Let's hope we implement this too.

Well if we don't, let's switch to BST in February, not March. Whatever
the (spurious) argument for moving the clocks I can't fathom out why
the change is left so late.

I agree with that and have noticed the USA have implemented a change in
the last couple of years meaning they have summer time for a least a
month longer than we do in the EU.

I didn't know that, and a link would be useful. Remember however that
49/50 US states are south of 49N and that almost all of the UK is north
of 50N.
The change is offset in the UK to account for the astronomical day being
earlier in the autumn and later in the spring, so the clocks
go forward at the end of March and back at the end of October.

you don't need to mess around with complicated numbers to show that the
dates are wrong

we change to summer time 3 three months before the summer solstice

but change back to winter time 4 month after the summer solstice.

It's a whole month wrong (one way or the other)

tim

R. Mark Clayton

2018-09-02 10:28:19 UTC

Post by Yellow
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
Let's hope we implement this too.

Well if we don't, let's switch to BST in February, not March. Whatever
the (spurious) argument for moving the clocks I can't fathom out why
the change is left so late.

I agree with that and have noticed the USA have implemented a change in
the last couple of years meaning they have summer time for a least a
month longer than we do in the EU.

I didn't know that, and a link would be useful. Remember however that
49/50 US states are south of 49N and that almost all of the UK is north
of 50N.
The change is offset in the UK to account for the astronomical day being
earlier in the autumn and later in the spring, so the clocks
go forward at the end of March and back at the end of October.

you don't need to mess around with complicated numbers to show that the
dates are wrong
we change to summer time 3 three months before the summer solstice
but change back to winter time 4 month after the summer solstice.
It's a whole month wrong (one way or the other)
tim

No it isn't because the daylight is later in the spring and earlier in the autumn, as the figures kindly provided above show.

As I said "Unthinking lighter later fundies, think it should be on the equinoxes. " because they don't understand astronomy [or indeed much else].

tim...

2018-09-02 16:41:14 UTC

Post by Yellow
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
Let's hope we implement this too.

Well if we don't, let's switch to BST in February, not March. Whatever
the (spurious) argument for moving the clocks I can't fathom out why
the change is left so late.

I agree with that and have noticed the USA have implemented a change in
the last couple of years meaning they have summer time for a least a
month longer than we do in the EU.

I didn't know that, and a link would be useful. Remember however that
49/50 US states are south of 49N and that almost all of the UK is north
of 50N.
The change is offset in the UK to account for the astronomical day being
earlier in the autumn and later in the spring, so the clocks
go forward at the end of March and back at the end of October.

you don't need to mess around with complicated numbers to show that the
dates are wrong
we change to summer time 3 three months before the summer solstice
but change back to winter time 4 month after the summer solstice.
It's a whole month wrong (one way or the other)
tim

No it isn't because the daylight is later in the spring and earlier in the
autumn, as the figures kindly provided above show.

You are right, there is 15 minutes difference (GMT) between sun rise at the
the Autumn equinox at the Spring equinox

As the day increase/decreases by 4 minutes per day (at this time of year)
those 15 minutes means a 4 day differential is required, not one month.

If you think the difference is more than that it's because the spring
equinox time is shown on Tablas as GMT and the autumn equinox is shown on
tables as BST

Post by R. Mark Clayton
As I said "Unthinking lighter later fundies, think it should be on the
equinoxes. " because they don't understand astronomy [or indeed much
else].

ISTM you didn't adjust your times back to GMT

tim

R. Mark Clayton

2018-09-02 10:25:23 UTC

Post by Yellow
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
Let's hope we implement this too.

Well if we don't, let's switch to BST in February, not March.
Whatever the (spurious) argument for moving the clocks I can't
fathom out why the change is left so late.

I agree with that and have noticed the USA have implemented a
change in the last couple of years meaning they have summer time
for a least a month longer than we do in the EU.

I didn't know that, and a link would be useful. Remember however
that 49/50 US states are south of 49N and that almost all of the UK
is north of 50N.
The change is offset in the UK to account for the astronomical day
being earlier in the autumn and later in the spring, so the clocks
go forward at the end of March and back at the end of October.

There is some element in that but it does not justify making winter drag
on for a whole extra month.
London, (UTC times)
20th October sunrise 6:32, sunset 16:54
20th February sunrise 7:05, sunset 17:24
20th March sunrise 6:04, sunset 18:13
Manchester
20th October sunrise 6:45, sunset 17:01
20th February sunrise 7:17, sunset 17:28
20th March sunrise 6:12, sunset 18:21

It more or less does.

TMS320

2018-09-03 09:10:07 UTC