Discussion:
Brexit : border between NI and Eire.
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Judith
2018-05-04 15:03:02 UTC
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6 months ago I posted here this question:

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I wonder if any of the ardent articulate Brexiteers here could help me out.

I cannot understand what the Tory Government's options are in dealing with the
border between NI and Eire.

I wonder if a Brexiteer who understands the issues could just identify the
preferred solution for us all.

I am sure that there is an easy answer, which was identified by the Tories
before they decided on having a free-for-all with the referendum and what has
followed.

What is it please?

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Obviously as the Government have moved on in a significant way in the last
six months the situation will now be much clearer.

Looking forward to considered responses.
Jethro_uk
2018-05-04 15:04:14 UTC
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Post by Judith
I wonder if any of the ardent articulate Brexiteers here could help me out.
I cannot understand what the Tory Government's options are in dealing
with the border between NI and Eire.
I wonder if a Brexiteer who understands the issues could just identify
the preferred solution for us all.
I am sure that there is an easy answer, which was identified by the
Tories before they decided on having a free-for-all with the referendum
and what has followed.
What is it please?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Judith
Obviously as the Government have moved on in a significant way in the
last six months the situation will now be much clearer.
Looking forward to considered responses.
I believe the issue has now been put back to the Autumn.
Norman Wells
2018-05-04 15:08:30 UTC
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Post by Judith
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wonder if any of the ardent articulate Brexiteers here could help me out.
I cannot understand what the Tory Government's options are in dealing with the
border between NI and Eire.
I wonder if a Brexiteer who understands the issues could just identify the
preferred solution for us all.
I am sure that there is an easy answer, which was identified by the Tories
before they decided on having a free-for-all with the referendum and what has
followed.
What is it please?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Obviously as the Government have moved on in a significant way in the last
six months the situation will now be much clearer.
Looking forward to considered responses.
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd have to
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.

But it's only what the rest of the world does.
GB
2018-05-04 15:22:35 UTC
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Post by Norman Wells
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd have to
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.
But it's only what the rest of the world does.
There are several more feasible solutions:
1. Cancel Brexit.
2. Have some sort of BRINO, where we stay in the single market/customs
union/whatever. It's what's going to happen, so as to avoid the
climb-down of 1. It means we won't be able to close our borders to EU
nationals, so nobody will be happy.
jew pedophile Ron Jacobson (jew pedophile Baruch 'Barry' Shein's jew aliash)
2018-05-04 17:29:28 UTC
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On Fri, 4 May 2018 16:22:35 +0100, jewboi GB (jb)
Post by GB
Post by Norman Wells
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd have to
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.
But it's only what the rest of the world does.
1. Cancel Brexit.
2. Have some sort of BRINO, where we stay in the single market/customs
union/whatever. It's what's going to happen, so as to avoid the
climb-down of 1. It means we won't be able to close our borders to EU
nationals, so nobody will be happy.
No can do, jewboi. There can only be a hard border like there is
between the jew occupied part of Palestine and the rest of Palestine.
--

"You are full of shit. You'll never convince any of us real Jews that
there is no Jewish look. I know my people and I can see their
Jewishness. Susan is not a Jew. If you want to get down her panties
just ask her she'll let you. She's a non-Jew."
Message-ID: <bfbdb526-1042-4e8e-a39f-***@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>

"You can try all you want and get all the plastic surgery you want but
you'll never look like one of us because you are not a Jew. You are
an Irish Shiksa that Isn't even a righteous non-Jew a Ger Tzadeck You
are VEEDMUS amongst us and are a gentile. I would not be surprised if
you ever go to Eretz Israel and spout off your non-senseical lies that
a Jew doesn't kill you or a gentile murder you. You are wicked because
you antagonize and lie about the Tzadeckim. The best place for you is
scrubbing toilets and urinals in a gymnasium that is predominate used
by Negros."
Message-ID: <ee17d097-89f7-4e72-a41a-***@p2g2000prn.googlegroups.com>

- drug-fucked jew wannabe Y-chi Netfish, mocking neo-jew Suzy KKKohen's
attempted 'conversion' to the jew race

"Warren is not well. He's a non-Jewish mental patient who usually declines to
take his medications. Please keep this in mind when viewing future posts."
Message-ID: <JZQTk.1726$***@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>

- neo-jew 'convert' Suzy KKKohen, mocking drug-fucked jew wannabe Y-chi Netfish's
claim to be a jew
The Peeler
2018-05-04 18:23:22 UTC
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On Fri, 04 May 2018 10:29:28 -0700, serbian bitch Razovic, the resident
psychopath of sci and scj and Usenet's famous sexual cripple, making an ass
of herself as "jew pedophile Ron Jacobson (jew pedophile Baruch 'Barry'
Post by jew pedophile Ron Jacobson (jew pedophile Baruch 'Barry' Shein's jew aliash)
Post by GB
1. Cancel Brexit.
2. Have some sort of BRINO, where we stay in the single market/customs
union/whatever. It's what's going to happen, so as to avoid the
climb-down of 1. It means we won't be able to close our borders to EU
nationals, so nobody will be happy.
No can do
Those three words sum up your entire life (if one can call that spastic
thing you are suffering from a "life" at all), you abnormal incapacitated
housebound sexually crippled loser! LOL
--
The top 5 truths about poor dumb Razovic, our colostomy bag wearing resident
psychopath, aka "The Rectum":

the desperate psycho can't SLEEP anymore,
she can't get out of the house anymore,
she got NOBODY to talk to anymore,
she can't FUCK anymore,
she got no life outside Usenet AT ALL!
Sick old pedo Andrew "Andrzej" Baron (aka "Ron Jacobson")
2018-05-05 11:15:18 UTC
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In article <***@4ax.com>,
A shiteating cowardly nazoid sub-louse PEDO named Andrew "Andrzej"
Post by jew pedophile Ron Jacobson (jew pedophile Baruch 'Barry' Shein's jew aliash)
No can do, jewboi.
OF COURSE they can, nazoid pedo Andrzej. If they can remove
half a ton of documents from downtown Tehran, how difficult
will it for them to exterminate one old nazoid pedo??
Fredxx
2018-05-04 17:33:01 UTC
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Post by GB
Post by Norman Wells
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd have to
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.
But it's only what the rest of the world does.
1. Cancel Brexit.
2. Have some sort of BRINO, where we stay in the single market/customs
union/whatever. It's what's going to happen, so as to avoid the
climb-down of 1. It means we won't be able to close our borders to EU
nationals, so nobody will be happy.
Neither of those will happen. It will be a border with spot checks, with
heavy fines for smuggling.
MM
2018-05-05 11:26:15 UTC
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Post by Fredxx
Neither of those will happen. It will be a border with spot checks
That is a hard border, by definition.

MM
tim...
2018-05-05 12:24:38 UTC
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Post by MM
Post by Fredxx
Neither of those will happen. It will be a border with spot checks
That is a hard border, by definition.
It is, isn't it

what's the problem?

Its the same system that they have at the border with Norway, which
according to some protagonists of that solution claim has a soft border with
the EU.

It's surprising how exactly the same thing in this Brexit argument can move
from being hard to soft depending upon whether it suits the champions of a
particular solution or not.

tim
Judith
2018-05-07 17:54:35 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by MM
Post by Fredxx
Neither of those will happen. It will be a border with spot checks
That is a hard border, by definition.
It is, isn't it
what's the problem?
Mayhem has said that there will be no hard border.

Surely you are not suggesting that she will change her mind (again)
tim...
2018-05-07 20:01:32 UTC
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Post by Judith
Post by tim...
Post by MM
Post by Fredxx
Neither of those will happen. It will be a border with spot checks
That is a hard border, by definition.
It is, isn't it
what's the problem?
Mayhem has said that there will be no hard border.
Surely you are not suggesting that she will change her mind (again)
Yep

tim
Fredxx
2018-05-05 14:59:18 UTC
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Post by MM
Post by Fredxx
Neither of those will happen. It will be a border with spot checks
That is a hard border, by definition.
Only in your eyes. Any policed, occasionally or otherwise, border will
always be seen by you as a hard border.

So, in your eyes, you should expect a hard border and not be surprised
that will be the outcome.
MM
2018-05-07 11:46:58 UTC
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Post by Fredxx
Post by MM
Post by Fredxx
Neither of those will happen. It will be a border with spot checks
That is a hard border, by definition.
Only in your eyes. Any policed, occasionally or otherwise, border will
always be seen by you as a hard border.
So, in your eyes, you should expect a hard border and not be surprised
that will be the outcome.
It doesn't depend on what I think. The fact is, it's a hard border
compared to now and that is anathema to both the Republic and Northern
Ireland.

MM
Norman Wells
2018-05-07 12:27:38 UTC
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Post by MM
Post by Fredxx
Post by MM
Post by Fredxx
Neither of those will happen. It will be a border with spot checks
That is a hard border, by definition.
Only in your eyes. Any policed, occasionally or otherwise, border will
always be seen by you as a hard border.
So, in your eyes, you should expect a hard border and not be surprised
that will be the outcome.
It doesn't depend on what I think. The fact is, it's a hard border
compared to now and that is anathema to both the Republic and Northern
Ireland.
Oh dear, there's a problem. We'll have to cancel Brexit then.
Ian Jackson
2018-05-07 12:59:20 UTC
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Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
Post by Fredxx
Post by MM
Post by Fredxx
Neither of those will happen. It will be a border with spot checks
That is a hard border, by definition.
Only in your eyes. Any policed, occasionally or otherwise, border will
always be seen by you as a hard border.
So, in your eyes, you should expect a hard border and not be surprised
that will be the outcome.
It doesn't depend on what I think. The fact is, it's a hard border
compared to now and that is anathema to both the Republic and Northern
Ireland.
Oh dear, there's a problem. We'll have to cancel Brexit then.
That's the best idea you've had for some time.

The problem is that there no solution to Irish Border is under the
present EU rules, the Good Friday Agreement, and what the majority of
the people of NI would accept in the way of having a different customs
system from the rest of the UK.

Despite this, many Brexiteers still argue that there IS a solution -
ranging from those who claim that the is no problem ("so what's all the
fuss about") to those who agree that there certainly is a difficult
problem - but by some stroke of genius and using advanced technology
that hasn't been invented yet, everything will turn out fine in the end.
However, when pressed for a precise explanation of how all this will
actually work, any explanation they give can immediately be seen to be
impracticable under the requirements I gave above.
--
Ian
Yellow
2018-05-07 13:55:34 UTC
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On Mon, 7 May 2018 13:59:20 +0100, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
The problem is that there no solution to Irish Border is under the
present EU rules, the Good Friday Agreement, and what the majority of
the people of NI would accept in the way of having a different customs
system from the rest of the UK.
Of course there are solutions as there are always solutions if people
are prepared to compromise. The problem of course is getting those with
a vested interest in us staying in the EU to stop using the border as a
way to try to keep us in the EU, in deed if not in name.
Post by Ian Jackson
Despite this, many Brexiteers still argue that there IS a solution
And despite this, all remoaners still argue there there is NO solution.
Post by Ian Jackson
-
ranging from those who claim that the is no problem ("so what's all the
fuss about") to those who agree that there certainly is a difficult
problem - but by some stroke of genius and using advanced technology
that hasn't been invented yet, everything will turn out fine in the end.
Chew on this - if neither the UK or Eire were in the EU and one or other
wanted to join, then a solution to this problem would magically be found
and agreed to. Yes or no?
Post by Ian Jackson
However, when pressed for a precise explanation of how all this will
actually work, any explanation they give can immediately be seen to be
impracticable under the requirements I gave above.
That is just an O'Brien-esque straw man - get your coconuts ready to
knock down any suggestion anyone makes as "impossible" so we will have
to simply stay in the EU instead. :-)

We are leaving the EU; that is a fact.

Staying in the/a customs union I do not believe would be acceptable to
the people and in any case, as a stand-alone solution would not be
enough to resolve the border issue as it is currently being painted
which would require staying in the Single Market too. But I do not
believe staying in the Single Market would be acceptable to the people
either.

The ability to make our own trade deals and the end of freedom of
movement are pivotal requirements, in my view, and somehow that has to
be balanced against EU rules and the Good Friday Agreement.

But what cannot be allowed to happen though, again in my view, is that
one group is allowed to run roughshod over the another group by
threatening the return to violence to force all the compromise to come
from the UK and none at all from the EU. And this is where I believe we
are at, at the moment.
Ian Jackson
2018-05-07 15:01:38 UTC
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Post by Yellow
On Mon, 7 May 2018 13:59:20 +0100, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
The problem is that there no solution to Irish Border is under the
present EU rules, the Good Friday Agreement, and what the majority of
the people of NI would accept in the way of having a different customs
system from the rest of the UK.
Of course there are solutions as there are always solutions if people
are prepared to compromise. The problem of course is getting those with
a vested interest in us staying in the EU to stop using the border as a
way to try to keep us in the EU, in deed if not in name.
Post by Ian Jackson
Despite this, many Brexiteers still argue that there IS a solution
And despite this, all remoaners still argue there there is NO solution.
But I didn't say there was NO solution. What I said was "The problem is
that there no solution to Irish Border is under the present EU rules,
the Good Friday Agreement, and what the majority of the people of NI
would accept in the way of having a different customs system from the
rest of the UK."
Post by Yellow
Post by Ian Jackson
ranging from those who claim that the is no problem ("so what's all the
fuss about") to those who agree that there certainly is a difficult
problem - but by some stroke of genius and using advanced technology
that hasn't been invented yet, everything will turn out fine in the end.
Chew on this - if neither the UK or Eire were in the EU and one or other
wanted to join, then a solution to this problem would magically be found
and agreed to. Yes or no?
The problem is hypothetical, and I don't know any more than you do. It's
obviously fortunate (and presumably was considered a pretty good idea by
both governments) if we joined together.
Post by Yellow
Post by Ian Jackson
However, when pressed for a precise explanation of how all this will
actually work, any explanation they give can immediately be seen to be
impracticable under the requirements I gave above.
That is just an O'Brien-esque straw man - get your coconuts ready to
knock down any suggestion anyone makes as "impossible" so we will have
to simply stay in the EU instead. :-)
All he (and lots of other people) ask is just what IS the solution that
will be acceptable to the EU, the ROI, the UK and the people of NI? It's
not a trick question, but it's certainly going to be a tricky answer.
Post by Yellow
We are leaving the EU; that is a fact.
But you and your fellow-Brexiteers need to suggest a practical,
realistic way of doing it. Or are you going to say (like I've certainly
heard a number of in-phoners saying) "Not my responsibility. We were
told that if we voted to leave, then we WOULD leave - no Ifs, no Buts.
It's now up to the Government to find a way of doing what I voted for".
Post by Yellow
Staying in the/a customs union I do not believe would be acceptable to
the people and in any case, as a stand-alone solution would not be
enough to resolve the border issue as it is currently being painted
which would require staying in the Single Market too. But I do not
believe staying in the Single Market would be acceptable to the people
either.
The ability to make our own trade deals and the end of freedom of
movement are pivotal requirements, in my view, and somehow that has to
be balanced against EU rules and the Good Friday Agreement.
But can you expand on "somehow"? Like several Brexiteers I've heard, you
understand the problem - but can you suggest an acceptable solution?
Post by Yellow
But what cannot be allowed to happen though, again in my view, is that
one group is allowed to run roughshod over the another group by
threatening the return to violence to force all the compromise to come
from the UK and none at all from the EU.
In that case, would it help if you had a quiet word with those
concerned, and tell them not to even think about being naughty boys
again?
Post by Yellow
And this is where I believe we
are at, at the moment.
At the risk of being boring, can I ask you again to suggest a workable,
acceptable solution?
--
Ian
Yellow
2018-05-07 17:52:13 UTC
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On Mon, 7 May 2018 16:01:38 +0100, Ian Jackson
But you (and your fellow-Brexiteers) need to suggest a practical,
realistic way of doing it.
(My parentheses)

No *I* don't. Again, this your O'Brien-esque methodology at work again,
that if I have a brain tumour I have to be the one who knows how to
remove it or I had simply better not have one.

This, like the Good Friday Agreement for example, needs negotiation and
it needs compromise.
Ian Jackson
2018-05-07 19:10:29 UTC
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Post by Yellow
On Mon, 7 May 2018 16:01:38 +0100, Ian Jackson
But you (and your fellow-Brexiteers) need to suggest a practical,
realistic way of doing it.
(My parentheses)
No *I* don't.
Unfortunately, most Brexiteers probably think like you. It's obvious
that your vote to leave has landed the UK in deep shit, and with one
hell of a headache (not a good combination). However, your collective
vivid imaginations about how fantastic it's going to be when we're out
of the EU don't seem to stretch as far as being able to suggest some
realistic and generally acceptable proposals on how to achieve it.
Post by Yellow
Again, this your O'Brien-esque methodology at work again,
that if I have a brain tumour I have to be the one who knows how to
remove it or I had simply better not have one.
Unlike voting to oblige the UK to leave the EU, brain tumours are not
self-inflicted - and neither can they be avoided.
Post by Yellow
This, like the Good Friday Agreement for example, needs negotiation and
it needs compromise.
It was difficult enough to achieve the present one - and even now there
are those who don't really accept it. How long do you estimate it will
take to negotiate compromises that are adequately satisfactory and
acceptable at all concerned?
--
Ian
tim...
2018-05-07 20:17:00 UTC
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Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 7 May 2018 16:01:38 +0100, Ian Jackson
But you (and your fellow-Brexiteers) need to suggest a practical,
realistic way of doing it.
(My parentheses)
No *I* don't.
Unfortunately, most Brexiteers probably think like you.
of course we do

the requirement for no hard border with RoI is not ours

It is the Irish/EU's. Therefore it is for them to suggest ways of achieving
it

Simply saying that we have created the problem by choosing to leave, does
not make it our problem
Post by Ian Jackson
It's obvious that your vote to leave has landed the UK in deep shit, and
with one hell of a headache (not a good combination). However, your
collective vivid imaginations about how fantastic it's going to be when
we're out of the EU don't seem to stretch as far as being able to suggest
some realistic and generally acceptable proposals on how to achieve it.
Post by Yellow
Again, this your O'Brien-esque methodology at work again,
that if I have a brain tumour I have to be the one who knows how to
remove it or I had simply better not have one.
Unlike voting to oblige the UK to leave the EU, brain tumours are not
self-inflicted - and neither can they be avoided.
Post by Yellow
This, like the Good Friday Agreement for example, needs negotiation and
it needs compromise.
It was difficult enough to achieve the present one
times were different then

both sides still had guns/bombs

and both sides thought that the route to winning was to use them,

neither is true now

tim
MM
2018-05-08 08:16:40 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 7 May 2018 16:01:38 +0100, Ian Jackson
But you (and your fellow-Brexiteers) need to suggest a practical,
realistic way of doing it.
(My parentheses)
No *I* don't.
Unfortunately, most Brexiteers probably think like you.
of course we do
the requirement for no hard border with RoI is not ours
It is the Irish/EU's.
Yes, because we're leaving the customs union.
Post by tim...
Therefore it is for them to suggest ways of achieving
No, it isn't. We're leaving the customs union. Our choice. (Well,
yours, not mine.)

MM
tim...
2018-05-08 10:52:20 UTC
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Post by MM
Post by tim...
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 7 May 2018 16:01:38 +0100, Ian Jackson
But you (and your fellow-Brexiteers) need to suggest a practical,
realistic way of doing it.
(My parentheses)
No *I* don't.
Unfortunately, most Brexiteers probably think like you.
of course we do
the requirement for no hard border with RoI is not ours
It is the Irish/EU's.
Yes, because we're leaving the customs union.
as we are perfectly entitled to do#
Post by MM
Post by tim...
Therefore it is for them to suggest ways of achieving
No, it isn't. We're leaving the customs union. Our choice. (Well,
yours, not mine.)
but we would be happy with a hard border on leaving

If the other side are so insistent of there not being a hard border when we
leave, that is a problem of their making and is thus theirs to solve.

that's the point
Post by MM
MM
R. Mark Clayton
2018-05-08 10:59:30 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by MM
Post by tim...
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 7 May 2018 16:01:38 +0100, Ian Jackson
But you (and your fellow-Brexiteers) need to suggest a practical,
realistic way of doing it.
(My parentheses)
No *I* don't.
Unfortunately, most Brexiteers probably think like you.
of course we do
the requirement for no hard border with RoI is not ours
It is the Irish/EU's.
Yes, because we're leaving the customs union.
as we are perfectly entitled to do#
Post by MM
Post by tim...
Therefore it is for them to suggest ways of achieving
No, it isn't. We're leaving the customs union. Our choice. (Well,
yours, not mine.)
but we would be happy with a hard border on leaving
The UK, NI and RoI governments have all said that that is exactly what they don't want.

Most businesses in the UK don't want at Dover either.
Post by tim...
If the other side are so insistent of there not being a hard border when we
leave, that is a problem of their making and is thus theirs to solve.
Whose making? - what have the EU or Ireland done to create a problem - no the problem is entirely of the UK's own making.
Post by tim...
that's the point
Only in Brextremist eyes where the EU should just let the UK have its cake, eat it and not pay for it.
Post by tim...
Post by MM
MM
Yellow
2018-05-08 11:56:46 UTC
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On Tue, 8 May 2018 03:59:30 -0700 (PDT), R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by MM
Yes, because we're leaving the customs union.
as we are perfectly entitled to do#
Post by MM
Post by tim...
Therefore it is for them to suggest ways of achieving
No, it isn't. We're leaving the customs union. Our choice. (Well,
yours, not mine.)
but we would be happy with a hard border on leaving
The UK, NI and RoI governments have all said that that is exactly what they don't want.
Governments say a lot of things and also they can not bind a future
government.
Ian Jackson
2018-05-08 12:24:40 UTC
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Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
If the other side are so insistent of there not being a hard border when we
leave, that is a problem of their making and is thus theirs to solve.
Whose making? - what have the EU or Ireland done to create a problem -
no the problem is entirely of the UK's own making.
It's really only England and Wales who are responsible!
--
Ian
tim...
2018-05-08 13:00:28 UTC
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Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by MM
Post by tim...
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 7 May 2018 16:01:38 +0100, Ian Jackson
But you (and your fellow-Brexiteers) need to suggest a practical,
realistic way of doing it.
(My parentheses)
No *I* don't.
Unfortunately, most Brexiteers probably think like you.
of course we do
the requirement for no hard border with RoI is not ours
It is the Irish/EU's.
Yes, because we're leaving the customs union.
as we are perfectly entitled to do#
Post by MM
Post by tim...
Therefore it is for them to suggest ways of achieving
No, it isn't. We're leaving the customs union. Our choice. (Well,
yours, not mine.)
but we would be happy with a hard border on leaving
The UK, NI and RoI governments have all said that that is exactly what they don't want.
we have said that is our preferred position

but we don't *require* it.

we can live with the alternative.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Most businesses in the UK don't want at Dover either.
With proper use of technology and a full FTA there shouldn't need to be any
physical checks at Dover.

Do you know what percentage of goods from ROW (which are subject to tariffs)
are physically checked when they arrive at e.g. Heathrow? It's tiny. Most
are just waved through on the basis of what's written on the accompanying
manifest.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
If the other side are so insistent of there not being a hard border when we
leave, that is a problem of their making and is thus theirs to solve.
Whose making? - what have the EU or Ireland done to create a problem - no
the problem is entirely of the UK's own making.
No it's created by EU insistence that they is no hard border

that' isn't something written in stone as part of our EU membership. It's a
new requirement that they have added.

Therefore they must make the concessions to achieve it.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
that's the point
and still is
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Only in Brextremist eyes where the EU should just let the UK have its
cake, eat it and not pay for it.
where did anyone say that were weren't prepared to pay our share of policing
the border?

tim
Ophelia
2018-05-08 14:28:58 UTC
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Post by MM
Post by tim...
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 7 May 2018 16:01:38 +0100, Ian Jackson
But you (and your fellow-Brexiteers) need to suggest a practical,
realistic way of doing it.
(My parentheses)
No *I* don't.
Unfortunately, most Brexiteers probably think like you.
of course we do
the requirement for no hard border with RoI is not ours
It is the Irish/EU's.
Yes, because we're leaving the customs union.
as we are perfectly entitled to do#
Post by MM
Post by tim...
Therefore it is for them to suggest ways of achieving
No, it isn't. We're leaving the customs union. Our choice. (Well,
yours, not mine.)
but we would be happy with a hard border on leaving

If the other side are so insistent of there not being a hard border when we
leave, that is a problem of their making and is thus theirs to solve.

that's the point


===

Exactly right!

Yellow
2018-05-07 21:35:08 UTC
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On Mon, 7 May 2018 20:10:29 +0100, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 7 May 2018 16:01:38 +0100, Ian Jackson
But you (and your fellow-Brexiteers) need to suggest a practical,
realistic way of doing it.
(My parentheses)
No *I* don't.
Unfortunately, most Brexiteers probably think like you.
Because you think if I was to give Theresa a buzz on the phone to offer
up a clever-clever solution to one of her political problems she would
take my call?

Is this what you imagine. :-)
Post by Ian Jackson
It's obvious
that your vote to leave has landed the UK in deep shit, and with one
hell of a headache (not a good combination).
Is this your view on all political elections and referendums? That we
vote for an MEP, MP, council or in a referendum and then it our personal
responsibility to ring them up on Sunday evening to offer up solutions
to their political dilemma?

Is that really what you imagine? :-))
Post by Ian Jackson
However, your collective
vivid imaginations about how fantastic it's going to be when we're out
of the EU don't seem to stretch as far as being able to suggest some
realistic and generally acceptable proposals on how to achieve it.
I think you are the one who has been at the cooking sherry and is
letting their imagination run riot.

Funny though. :-)))
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
Again, this your O'Brien-esque methodology at work again,
that if I have a brain tumour I have to be the one who knows how to
remove it or I had simply better not have one.
Unlike voting to oblige the UK to leave the EU, brain tumours are not
self-inflicted - and neither can they be avoided.
Now we are getting into interesting territory, you thinking I should not
have voted so as not to have "inflicted" a result on you that you do not
like.

That is very EU-esque of you.
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
This, like the Good Friday Agreement for example, needs negotiation and
it needs compromise.
It was difficult enough to achieve the present one - and even now there
are those who don't really accept it. How long do you estimate it will
take to negotiate compromises that are adequately satisfactory and
acceptable at all concerned?
Here we go again with the O'Brien-isms. You are perhaps under the
misapprehension that I am as dumb as his regular listeners and think
demanding impossible answers instead of making an argument is clever?

:-p
Ian Jackson
2018-05-08 07:22:05 UTC
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Post by Yellow
Here we go again with the O'Brien-isms. You are perhaps under the
misapprehension that I am as dumb as his regular listeners and think
demanding impossible answers instead of making an argument is clever?
:-p
J o'B often challenges callers' deeply held beliefs and assertions by
asking them awkward questions like "In reality, how does what you're
objecting to so strongly really affect you personally (or even anyone
you know)?" and "What is YOUR solution to the problem, and what would be
the consequences of implementing it?".

Why do you have a problem with this sort of questioning?

Just what sort of questions SHOULD he be asking?
--
Ian
MM
2018-05-08 08:13:37 UTC
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Post by Yellow
On Mon, 7 May 2018 16:01:38 +0100, Ian Jackson
But you (and your fellow-Brexiteers) need to suggest a practical,
realistic way of doing it.
(My parentheses)
No *I* don't. Again, this your O'Brien-esque methodology at work again,
that if I have a brain tumour I have to be the one who knows how to
remove it or I had simply better not have one.
This, like the Good Friday Agreement for example, needs negotiation and
it needs compromise.
Sounds like you're arguing for a pregnant woman to be declared not
pregnant. A border with ~any~ controls is by definition a hard border
and thus is NOT acceptable to any of the parties involved.

Now maybe you could try to get your head around that, then think up a
"compromise". The world awaits your insight.

MM
Norman Wells
2018-05-08 08:23:17 UTC
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Post by MM
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 7 May 2018 16:01:38 +0100, Ian Jackson
But you (and your fellow-Brexiteers) need to suggest a practical,
realistic way of doing it.
(My parentheses)
No *I* don't. Again, this your O'Brien-esque methodology at work again,
that if I have a brain tumour I have to be the one who knows how to
remove it or I had simply better not have one.
This, like the Good Friday Agreement for example, needs negotiation and
it needs compromise.
Sounds like you're arguing for a pregnant woman to be declared not
pregnant. A border with ~any~ controls is by definition a hard border
and thus is NOT acceptable to any of the parties involved.
Now maybe you could try to get your head around that, then think up a
"compromise". The world awaits your insight.
I disagree. I think a hard border would ultimately be acceptable to
both the EU and the UK. And since they're the main parties in this,
that is what should and will happen.

The EU will have to appease the Irish of course, and we'll have to
appease the Northern Irish, but they're only small parts of the larger
wholes so it should be perfectly possible, maybe if necessary by
throwing them a bit of money.
pensive hamster
2018-05-07 15:51:59 UTC
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Post by Yellow
Post by Ian Jackson
The problem is that there no solution to Irish Border is under the
present EU rules, the Good Friday Agreement, and what the majority of
the people of NI would accept in the way of having a different customs
system from the rest of the UK.
Of course there are solutions as there are always solutions if people
are prepared to compromise. The problem of course is getting those with
a vested interest in us staying in the EU to stop using the border as a
way to try to keep us in the EU, in deed if not in name.
Post by Ian Jackson
Despite this, many Brexiteers still argue that there IS a solution
And despite this, all remoaners still argue there there is NO solution.
I'm a remainer rather than a remoaner, but I don't argue there
there is NO solution.

I just don't know what the solution will be, or how well it will
work.
Post by Yellow
Post by Ian Jackson
ranging from those who claim that the is no problem ("so what's all the
fuss about") to those who agree that there certainly is a difficult
problem - but by some stroke of genius and using advanced technology
that hasn't been invented yet, everything will turn out fine in the end.
Chew on this - if neither the UK or Eire were in the EU and one or other
wanted to join, then a solution to this problem would magically be found
and agreed to. Yes or no?
Just on this point, no. Because there wouldn't be a problem,
so far as I can see, so no need for a solution, magical or not.

If neither the UK or Eire were in the EU, then there would be a
hard(ish) border between them, because they are different
countries. I can't see any reason why the border would have
to become any less or more hard, if one country decided to
join the EU

I say hard(ish) border, because the border wasn't all that hard
prior to the start of the troubles in 1972 or so.

The actual situation, where both countries are in the EU, and
one wants to leave, is a different situation to your hypothetical
above. Neither country in the EU, and one wanting to join,
would be a different starting point to the one we are in at
present.

[...]
tim...
2018-05-07 17:24:46 UTC
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Post by Yellow
On Mon, 7 May 2018 13:59:20 +0100, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
The problem is that there no solution to Irish Border is under the
present EU rules, the Good Friday Agreement, and what the majority of
the people of NI would accept in the way of having a different customs
system from the rest of the UK.
Of course there are solutions as there are always solutions if people
are prepared to compromise. The problem of course is getting those with
a vested interest in us staying in the EU to stop using the border as a
way to try to keep us in the EU, in deed if not in name.
Post by Ian Jackson
Despite this, many Brexiteers still argue that there IS a solution
And despite this, all remoaners still argue there there is NO solution.
Post by Ian Jackson
-
ranging from those who claim that the is no problem ("so what's all the
fuss about") to those who agree that there certainly is a difficult
problem - but by some stroke of genius and using advanced technology
that hasn't been invented yet, everything will turn out fine in the end.
Chew on this - if neither the UK or Eire were in the EU and one or other
wanted to join, then a solution to this problem would magically be found
and agreed to. Yes or no?
Post by Ian Jackson
However, when pressed for a precise explanation of how all this will
actually work, any explanation they give can immediately be seen to be
impracticable under the requirements I gave above.
That is just an O'Brien-esque straw man - get your coconuts ready to
knock down any suggestion anyone makes as "impossible" so we will have
to simply stay in the EU instead. :-)
We are leaving the EU; that is a fact.
Staying in the/a customs union I do not believe would be acceptable to
the people and in any case, as a stand-alone solution would not be
enough to resolve the border issue as it is currently being painted
which would require staying in the Single Market too. But I do not
believe staying in the Single Market would be acceptable to the people
either.
The ability to make our own trade deals and the end of freedom of
movement are pivotal requirements, in my view, and somehow that has to
be balanced against EU rules and the Good Friday Agreement.
But what cannot be allowed to happen though, again in my view, is that
one group is allowed to run roughshod over the another group by
threatening the return to violence to force all the compromise to come
from the UK and none at all from the EU. And this is where I believe we
are at, at the moment.
except that, in realty, there is no-one, with a means to do so, threatening
violence

it's just a made up threat by people with a vested interest in having it
believed.

tim
Yellow
2018-05-07 17:59:09 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by Yellow
The ability to make our own trade deals and the end of freedom of
movement are pivotal requirements, in my view, and somehow that has to
be balanced against EU rules and the Good Friday Agreement.
But what cannot be allowed to happen though, again in my view, is that
one group is allowed to run roughshod over the another group by
threatening the return to violence to force all the compromise to come
from the UK and none at all from the EU. And this is where I believe we
are at, at the moment.
except that, in realty, there is no-one, with a means to do so, threatening
violence
I could not agree more but that is still what we are being threatened
with if the UK does not acquiesce and stay in the customs union and
single market or have a border in the Irish Sea.

I think it is appalling and I am amazed that more has not been made of
it in the press.
Post by tim...
it's just a made up threat by people with a vested interest in having it
believed.
Again, I agree, but that is what is being used to create this "border
crisis" as without the threat of a return to violence, there would not
be one.
Judith
2018-05-07 17:58:58 UTC
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Post by Yellow
On Mon, 7 May 2018 13:59:20 +0100, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
The problem is that there no solution to Irish Border is under the
present EU rules, the Good Friday Agreement, and what the majority of
the people of NI would accept in the way of having a different customs
system from the rest of the UK.
Of course there are solutions as there are always solutions if people
are prepared to compromise. The problem of course is getting those with
a vested interest in us staying in the EU to stop using the border as a
way to try to keep us in the EU, in deed if not in name.
Post by Ian Jackson
Despite this, many Brexiteers still argue that there IS a solution
And despite this, all remoaners still argue there there is NO solution.
Post by Ian Jackson
-
ranging from those who claim that the is no problem ("so what's all the
fuss about") to those who agree that there certainly is a difficult
problem - but by some stroke of genius and using advanced technology
that hasn't been invented yet, everything will turn out fine in the end.
Chew on this - if neither the UK or Eire were in the EU and one or other
wanted to join, then a solution to this problem would magically be found
and agreed to. Yes or no?
Post by Ian Jackson
However, when pressed for a precise explanation of how all this will
actually work, any explanation they give can immediately be seen to be
impracticable under the requirements I gave above.
That is just an O'Brien-esque straw man - get your coconuts ready to
knock down any suggestion anyone makes as "impossible" so we will have
to simply stay in the EU instead. :-)
We are leaving the EU; that is a fact.
Staying in the/a customs union I do not believe would be acceptable to
the people and in any case, as a stand-alone solution would not be
enough to resolve the border issue as it is currently being painted
which would require staying in the Single Market too. But I do not
believe staying in the Single Market would be acceptable to the people
either.
The ability to make our own trade deals and the end of freedom of
movement are pivotal requirements, in my view, and somehow that has to
be balanced against EU rules and the Good Friday Agreement.
But what cannot be allowed to happen though, again in my view, is that
one group is allowed to run roughshod over the another group by
threatening the return to violence to force all the compromise to come
from the UK and none at all from the EU. And this is where I believe we
are at, at the moment.
Why not share with us what your preferred solution is?

I assume that you are not Theresa Mayhem in disguise and that you do have a
preferred solution???
Yellow
2018-05-07 18:03:28 UTC
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Post by Judith
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 7 May 2018 13:59:20 +0100, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
The problem is that there no solution to Irish Border is under the
present EU rules, the Good Friday Agreement, and what the majority of
the people of NI would accept in the way of having a different customs
system from the rest of the UK.
Of course there are solutions as there are always solutions if people
are prepared to compromise. The problem of course is getting those with
a vested interest in us staying in the EU to stop using the border as a
way to try to keep us in the EU, in deed if not in name.
Post by Ian Jackson
Despite this, many Brexiteers still argue that there IS a solution
And despite this, all remoaners still argue there there is NO solution.
Post by Ian Jackson
-
ranging from those who claim that the is no problem ("so what's all the
fuss about") to those who agree that there certainly is a difficult
problem - but by some stroke of genius and using advanced technology
that hasn't been invented yet, everything will turn out fine in the end.
Chew on this - if neither the UK or Eire were in the EU and one or other
wanted to join, then a solution to this problem would magically be found
and agreed to. Yes or no?
Post by Ian Jackson
However, when pressed for a precise explanation of how all this will
actually work, any explanation they give can immediately be seen to be
impracticable under the requirements I gave above.
That is just an O'Brien-esque straw man - get your coconuts ready to
knock down any suggestion anyone makes as "impossible" so we will have
to simply stay in the EU instead. :-)
We are leaving the EU; that is a fact.
Staying in the/a customs union I do not believe would be acceptable to
the people and in any case, as a stand-alone solution would not be
enough to resolve the border issue as it is currently being painted
which would require staying in the Single Market too. But I do not
believe staying in the Single Market would be acceptable to the people
either.
The ability to make our own trade deals and the end of freedom of
movement are pivotal requirements, in my view, and somehow that has to
be balanced against EU rules and the Good Friday Agreement.
But what cannot be allowed to happen though, again in my view, is that
one group is allowed to run roughshod over the another group by
threatening the return to violence to force all the compromise to come
from the UK and none at all from the EU. And this is where I believe we
are at, at the moment.
Why not share with us what your preferred solution is?
I, quite frankly, could not give a shit as long as we leave the EU which
means also leaving the Customs Union and leaving the Single Market.
Post by Judith
I assume that you are not Theresa Mayhem in disguise and that you do have a
preferred solution???
Take some advice and never assume.
R. Mark Clayton
2018-05-07 19:11:51 UTC
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Post by Yellow
Post by Judith
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 7 May 2018 13:59:20 +0100, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
The problem is that there no solution to Irish Border is under the
present EU rules, the Good Friday Agreement, and what the majority of
the people of NI would accept in the way of having a different customs
system from the rest of the UK.
Of course there are solutions as there are always solutions if people
are prepared to compromise. The problem of course is getting those with
a vested interest in us staying in the EU to stop using the border as a
way to try to keep us in the EU, in deed if not in name.
Post by Ian Jackson
Despite this, many Brexiteers still argue that there IS a solution
And despite this, all remoaners still argue there there is NO solution.
Post by Ian Jackson
-
ranging from those who claim that the is no problem ("so what's all the
fuss about") to those who agree that there certainly is a difficult
problem - but by some stroke of genius and using advanced technology
that hasn't been invented yet, everything will turn out fine in the end.
Chew on this - if neither the UK or Eire were in the EU and one or other
wanted to join, then a solution to this problem would magically be found
and agreed to. Yes or no?
Post by Ian Jackson
However, when pressed for a precise explanation of how all this will
actually work, any explanation they give can immediately be seen to be
impracticable under the requirements I gave above.
That is just an O'Brien-esque straw man - get your coconuts ready to
knock down any suggestion anyone makes as "impossible" so we will have
to simply stay in the EU instead. :-)
We are leaving the EU; that is a fact.
Staying in the/a customs union I do not believe would be acceptable to
the people and in any case, as a stand-alone solution would not be
enough to resolve the border issue as it is currently being painted
which would require staying in the Single Market too. But I do not
believe staying in the Single Market would be acceptable to the people
either.
The ability to make our own trade deals and the end of freedom of
movement are pivotal requirements, in my view, and somehow that has to
be balanced against EU rules and the Good Friday Agreement.
But what cannot be allowed to happen though, again in my view, is that
one group is allowed to run roughshod over the another group by
threatening the return to violence to force all the compromise to come
from the UK and none at all from the EU. And this is where I believe we
are at, at the moment.
Why not share with us what your preferred solution is?
I, quite frankly, could not give a shit as long as we leave the EU which
means also leaving the Customs Union and leaving the Single Market.
Yes we know that for your Brexit trumps reason and common sense - even over the Irish dimension of all the problems and economic decline it will bring.
Post by Yellow
Post by Judith
I assume that you are not Theresa Mayhem in disguise and that you do have a
preferred solution???
Take some advice and never assume.
tim...
2018-05-07 20:03:49 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
Post by Judith
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 7 May 2018 13:59:20 +0100, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
The problem is that there no solution to Irish Border is under the
present EU rules, the Good Friday Agreement, and what the majority of
the people of NI would accept in the way of having a different customs
system from the rest of the UK.
Of course there are solutions as there are always solutions if people
are prepared to compromise. The problem of course is getting those with
a vested interest in us staying in the EU to stop using the border as a
way to try to keep us in the EU, in deed if not in name.
Post by Ian Jackson
Despite this, many Brexiteers still argue that there IS a solution
And despite this, all remoaners still argue there there is NO solution.
Post by Ian Jackson
-
ranging from those who claim that the is no problem ("so what's all the
fuss about") to those who agree that there certainly is a difficult
problem - but by some stroke of genius and using advanced technology
that hasn't been invented yet, everything will turn out fine in the end.
Chew on this - if neither the UK or Eire were in the EU and one or other
wanted to join, then a solution to this problem would magically be found
and agreed to. Yes or no?
Post by Ian Jackson
However, when pressed for a precise explanation of how all this will
actually work, any explanation they give can immediately be seen to be
impracticable under the requirements I gave above.
That is just an O'Brien-esque straw man - get your coconuts ready to
knock down any suggestion anyone makes as "impossible" so we will have
to simply stay in the EU instead. :-)
We are leaving the EU; that is a fact.
Staying in the/a customs union I do not believe would be acceptable to
the people and in any case, as a stand-alone solution would not be
enough to resolve the border issue as it is currently being painted
which would require staying in the Single Market too. But I do not
believe staying in the Single Market would be acceptable to the people
either.
The ability to make our own trade deals and the end of freedom of
movement are pivotal requirements, in my view, and somehow that has to
be balanced against EU rules and the Good Friday Agreement.
But what cannot be allowed to happen though, again in my view, is that
one group is allowed to run roughshod over the another group by
threatening the return to violence to force all the compromise to come
from the UK and none at all from the EU. And this is where I believe we
are at, at the moment.
Why not share with us what your preferred solution is?
I, quite frankly, could not give a shit as long as we leave the EU which
means also leaving the Customs Union and leaving the Single Market.
Yes we know that for your Brexit trumps reason and common sense - even
over the Irish dimension of all the problems and economic decline it will
bring.
completely unproven and which many of us believe will not happen

You have no proof that it will.

Just predictions from people who have a track record of being wrong every
time, so far.

tim
MM
2018-05-08 08:23:43 UTC
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Post by tim...
completely unproven and which many of us believe will not happen
You have no proof that it will.
Just predictions from people who have a track record of being wrong every
time, so far.
Why not read here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Northern_Ireland_Troubles_and_peace_process
and educate yourself before responding?

MM
tim...
2018-05-08 11:03:01 UTC
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Post by MM
Post by tim...
completely unproven and which many of us believe will not happen
You have no proof that it will.
Just predictions from people who have a track record of being wrong every
time, so far.
Why not read here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Northern_Ireland_Troubles_and_peace_process
and educate yourself before responding?
I wasn't talking about the Irish question

I was referring to the accuracy in predicting the economic effects of doing
something wrt our EU membership. The economic forecasters who cautioned
against doing something because the world would fall in, have been
consistently wrong - FTAOD they have a 100% record in being wrong.

But if we are talking about the Irish question, I am well aware of what
happened, thank you very much.

And I personally don't believe for one minute that the imposition of border
controls with RoI will see a return of the problem.

As I have already said, times were different

Both side had guns and bombs
and both side believed that they could win the political argument by using
them

Neither are true now. (and it isn't just the history of Ireland that shows
that)

If you wish to argue otherwise you need to address the specific points I
made. Simply asserting that you believe will not cut it .

tim
MM
2018-05-08 08:22:25 UTC
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Post by Yellow
I, quite frankly, could not give a shit as long as we leave the EU which
means also leaving the Customs Union and leaving the Single Market.
And there we have it, folks. One Brexiter probably speaking for many
others not giving a shit about the Irish border question. This after
fifty years of the Troubles.

All you care about is Brussels telling you to abide by the regs.

MM
R. Mark Clayton
2018-05-07 19:07:42 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 7 May 2018 13:59:20 +0100, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
The problem is that there no solution to Irish Border is under the
present EU rules, the Good Friday Agreement, and what the majority of
the people of NI would accept in the way of having a different customs
system from the rest of the UK.
Of course there are solutions as there are always solutions if people
are prepared to compromise.
So which side is it that is taking their ball home, pulling up the drawbridge, dropping the portcullis, slamming the gates shut and shouting **** the EU an all it stands for from the white cliffs of Dover?
Post by Yellow
The problem of course is getting those with
a vested interest in us staying in the EU to stop using the border as a
way to try to keep us in the EU, in deed if not in name.
The problem is that nearly all of us have a vested interest in stating in the EU apart from a few customs forwarders and other workers in the quaternary economy (B ark in Hitch Hikers' Guide to the Galaxy).
Post by Yellow
Post by Ian Jackson
Despite this, many Brexiteers still argue that there IS a solution
although they haven't produced one that stands a cat in hell's chance of working.
Post by Yellow
And despite this, all remoaners still argue there there is NO solution.
see above.
Post by Yellow
Post by Ian Jackson
-
ranging from those who claim that the is no problem ("so what's all the
fuss about") to those who agree that there certainly is a difficult
problem - but by some stroke of genius and using advanced technology
that hasn't been invented yet, everything will turn out fine in the end.
Chew on this - if neither the UK or Eire were in the EU and one or other
wanted to join, then a solution to this problem would magically be found
and agreed to. Yes or no?
Post by Ian Jackson
However, when pressed for a precise explanation of how all this will
actually work, any explanation they give can immediately be seen to be
impracticable under the requirements I gave above.
That is just an O'Brien-esque straw man - get your coconuts ready to
knock down any suggestion anyone makes as "impossible" so we will have
to simply stay in the EU instead. :-)
We are leaving the EU; that is a fact.
Staying in the/a customs union I do not believe would be acceptable to
the people and in any case, as a stand-alone solution would not be
enough to resolve the border issue as it is currently being painted
which would require staying in the Single Market too. But I do not
believe staying in the Single Market would be acceptable to the people
either.
The ability to make our own trade deals and the end of freedom of
movement are pivotal requirements, in my view, and somehow that has to
be balanced against EU rules and the Good Friday Agreement.
But what cannot be allowed to happen though, again in my view, is that
one group is allowed to run roughshod over the another group by
threatening the return to violence to force all the compromise to come
from the UK and none at all from the EU. And this is where I believe we
are at, at the moment.
So NI should join the republic?
tim...
2018-05-07 20:13:11 UTC
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Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 7 May 2018 13:59:20 +0100, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
The problem is that there no solution to Irish Border is under the
present EU rules, the Good Friday Agreement, and what the majority of
the people of NI would accept in the way of having a different customs
system from the rest of the UK.
Of course there are solutions as there are always solutions if people
are prepared to compromise.
So which side is it that is taking their ball home, pulling up the
drawbridge, dropping the portcullis, slamming the gates shut and shouting
**** the EU an all it stands for from the white cliffs of Dover?
Post by Yellow
The problem of course is getting those with
a vested interest in us staying in the EU to stop using the border as a
way to try to keep us in the EU, in deed if not in name.
The problem is that nearly all of us have a vested interest in stating in
the EU
no WE don't

That's why the average person (the median one) voted out. Because they
believe that it will be better for *them*

just spouting that it will be better for the UK economy to stay in when all
of that betterness is gobbled up by 10% of the population whilst 90% see
none of that betterness, doesn't win you the argument.

You have to look at each person in the economy individually and work out
just how staying in might be better or worse for them. Simply averaging a
5% (or whatever) national GPD gain over the whole population is a bogus way
of doing it.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Yellow
The ability to make our own trade deals and the end of freedom of
movement are pivotal requirements, in my view, and somehow that has to
be balanced against EU rules and the Good Friday Agreement.
But what cannot be allowed to happen though, again in my view, is that
one group is allowed to run roughshod over the another group by
threatening the return to violence to force all the compromise to come
from the UK and none at all from the EU. And this is where I believe we
are at, at the moment.
So NI should join the republic?
now you really are making trouble
MM
2018-05-08 08:09:52 UTC
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Post by Yellow
On Mon, 7 May 2018 13:59:20 +0100, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
The problem is that there no solution to Irish Border is under the
present EU rules, the Good Friday Agreement, and what the majority of
the people of NI would accept in the way of having a different customs
system from the rest of the UK.
Of course there are solutions as there are always solutions if people
are prepared to compromise.
Alternatives to World War II?

Appeasement?

MM
tim...
2018-05-08 11:03:40 UTC
Reply
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Post by MM
Post by Yellow
On Mon, 7 May 2018 13:59:20 +0100, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
The problem is that there no solution to Irish Border is under the
present EU rules, the Good Friday Agreement, and what the majority of
the people of NI would accept in the way of having a different customs
system from the rest of the UK.
Of course there are solutions as there are always solutions if people
are prepared to compromise.
Alternatives to World War II?
Appeasement?
not entering WWI would have been a good solution

tim
Norman Wells
2018-05-07 14:24:13 UTC
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Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Fredxx
Post by MM
Post by Fredxx
Neither of those will happen. It will be a border with spot checks
That is a hard border, by definition.
Only in your eyes. Any policed, occasionally or otherwise, border will
always be seen by you as a hard border.
So, in your eyes, you should expect a hard border and not be surprised
that will be the outcome.
 It doesn't depend on what I think. The fact is, it's a hard border
compared to now and that is anathema to both the Republic and Northern
Ireland.
Oh dear, there's a problem.  We'll have to cancel Brexit then.
That's the best idea you've had for some time.
The problem is that there no solution to Irish Border is under the
present EU rules, the Good Friday Agreement, and what the majority of
the people of NI would accept in the way of having a different customs
system from the rest of the UK.
Something has to give. If it's a question of Brexit or the Good Friday
Agreement which has served its purpose, it's the latter that will give.
And then we can have a nice hard border just like everywhere else.

Problem solved.
Post by Ian Jackson
Despite this, many Brexiteers still argue that there IS a solution -
ranging from those who claim that the is no problem ("so what's all the
fuss about") to those who agree that there certainly is a difficult
problem - but by some stroke of genius and using advanced technology
that hasn't been invented yet, everything will turn out fine in the end.
However, when pressed for a precise explanation of how all this will
actually work, any explanation they give can immediately be seen to be
impracticable under the requirements I gave above.
Quite. Fiddling around won't solve the problem. Once we get a grip, we
will go back to the default position, which is a hard border. It's the
only thing that can conceivably work.
Ian Jackson
2018-05-07 15:08:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Fredxx
Post by MM
Post by Fredxx
Neither of those will happen. It will be a border with spot checks
That is a hard border, by definition.
Only in your eyes. Any policed, occasionally or otherwise, border will
always be seen by you as a hard border.
So, in your eyes, you should expect a hard border and not be surprised
that will be the outcome.
 It doesn't depend on what I think. The fact is, it's a hard border
compared to now and that is anathema to both the Republic and Northern
Ireland.
Oh dear, there's a problem.  We'll have to cancel Brexit then.
That's the best idea you've had for some time.
The problem is that there no solution to Irish Border is under the
present EU rules, the Good Friday Agreement, and what the majority of
the people of NI would accept in the way of having a different customs
system from the rest of the UK.
Something has to give. If it's a question of Brexit or the Good Friday
Agreement which has served its purpose, it's the latter that will give.
And then we can have a nice hard border just like everywhere else.
Problem solved.
Post by Ian Jackson
Despite this, many Brexiteers still argue that there IS a solution -
ranging from those who claim that the is no problem ("so what's all
the fuss about") to those who agree that there certainly is a
difficult problem - but by some stroke of genius and using advanced
technology that hasn't been invented yet, everything will turn out
fine in the end. However, when pressed for a precise explanation of
how all this will actually work, any explanation they give can
immediately be seen to be impracticable under the requirements I gave above.
Quite. Fiddling around won't solve the problem. Once we get a grip,
we will go back to the default position, which is a hard border. It's
the only thing that can conceivably work.
So your solution is (if and when necessary) to ignore the GFA, and
impose a hard border - a border which, because the ROI will still be in
the EU, could be a lot harder than ever it was before we both joined the
EU?

Do you really think that will be acceptable to either the ROI or NI?
--
Ian
Norman Wells
2018-05-07 16:49:45 UTC
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Post by Ian Jackson
Quite.  Fiddling around won't solve the problem.  Once we get a grip,
we will go back to the default position, which is a hard border. It's
the only thing that can conceivably work.
So your solution is (if and when necessary) to ignore the GFA, and
impose a hard border - a border which, because the ROI will still be in
the EU, could be a lot harder than ever it was before we both joined the
EU?
Do you really think that will be acceptable to either the ROI or NI?
The EU has to accept that it's our decision alone to leave. It cannot
veto it or prevent it. Once we leave, it then has to decide what sort
of a border it wants on its side, and we have to decide what sort of a
border we want on our side. What is 'acceptable' to the RoI on its side
is its and the EU's problem to sort out. It's not ours.

What is 'acceptable' on our side is a matter for the whole of the UK to
decide in all of our best interests. I do not think we can accept, for
example, that all and sundry who rock up in Ireland from Syria or
Somalia should be allowed to freely enter the UK after Brexit, so we
will have to have border checks, and that is, by definition, a hard border.

If a hard border is not 'acceptable' to Northern Ireland, we'll have to
pull rank. They are part of the United Kingdom and strongly wish to
remain so. But they are only 1.81 million, or less than 3% of the total
UK population. They will eventually have to bend to the will of the
rest of the UK. But I'm not sure that a hard border would be too bad
for the Northern Irish anyway.
Judith
2018-05-07 18:01:19 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Fredxx
Post by MM
Post by Fredxx
Neither of those will happen. It will be a border with spot checks
That is a hard border, by definition.
Only in your eyes. Any policed, occasionally or otherwise, border will
always be seen by you as a hard border.
So, in your eyes, you should expect a hard border and not be surprised
that will be the outcome.
 It doesn't depend on what I think. The fact is, it's a hard border
compared to now and that is anathema to both the Republic and Northern
Ireland.
Oh dear, there's a problem.  We'll have to cancel Brexit then.
That's the best idea you've had for some time.
The problem is that there no solution to Irish Border is under the
present EU rules, the Good Friday Agreement, and what the majority of
the people of NI would accept in the way of having a different customs
system from the rest of the UK.
Something has to give. If it's a question of Brexit or the Good Friday
Agreement which has served its purpose, it's the latter that will give.
And then we can have a nice hard border just like everywhere else.
Problem solved.
Post by Ian Jackson
Despite this, many Brexiteers still argue that there IS a solution -
ranging from those who claim that the is no problem ("so what's all the
fuss about") to those who agree that there certainly is a difficult
problem - but by some stroke of genius and using advanced technology
that hasn't been invented yet, everything will turn out fine in the end.
However, when pressed for a precise explanation of how all this will
actually work, any explanation they give can immediately be seen to be
impracticable under the requirements I gave above.
Quite. Fiddling around won't solve the problem. Once we get a grip, we
will go back to the default position, which is a hard border. It's the
only thing that can conceivably work.
I suppose there could be a referendum on what the British people think about
the proposed solution : is it acceptable or not?
R. Mark Clayton
2018-05-07 19:15:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Judith
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Fredxx
Post by MM
Post by Fredxx
Neither of those will happen. It will be a border with spot checks
That is a hard border, by definition.
Only in your eyes. Any policed, occasionally or otherwise, border will
always be seen by you as a hard border.
So, in your eyes, you should expect a hard border and not be surprised
that will be the outcome.
 It doesn't depend on what I think. The fact is, it's a hard border
compared to now and that is anathema to both the Republic and Northern
Ireland.
Oh dear, there's a problem.  We'll have to cancel Brexit then.
That's the best idea you've had for some time.
The problem is that there no solution to Irish Border is under the
present EU rules, the Good Friday Agreement, and what the majority of
the people of NI would accept in the way of having a different customs
system from the rest of the UK.
Something has to give. If it's a question of Brexit or the Good Friday
Agreement which has served its purpose, it's the latter that will give.
And then we can have a nice hard border just like everywhere else.
Problem solved.
Post by Ian Jackson
Despite this, many Brexiteers still argue that there IS a solution -
ranging from those who claim that the is no problem ("so what's all the
fuss about") to those who agree that there certainly is a difficult
problem - but by some stroke of genius and using advanced technology
that hasn't been invented yet, everything will turn out fine in the end.
However, when pressed for a precise explanation of how all this will
actually work, any explanation they give can immediately be seen to be
impracticable under the requirements I gave above.
Quite. Fiddling around won't solve the problem. Once we get a grip, we
will go back to the default position, which is a hard border. It's the
only thing that can conceivably work.
I suppose there could be a referendum on what the British people think about
the proposed solution : is it acceptable or not?
As it only really would affect people on the island of Ireland, why not have a referendum of all of them. A big majority in the north already voted to stay in, and despite some wobbles over the odd treaty I am pretty sure there is a BIG majority in the south. The UK might eventually manage to cut a few trade deals to partly make up for the loss of the one with the EU and its 65 trading partners, but for minnow Ireland - not a chance.
Yellow
2018-05-07 21:04:27 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
On Mon, 7 May 2018 12:15:21 -0700 (PDT), R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Judith
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Ian Jackson
Despite this, many Brexiteers still argue that there IS a solution -
ranging from those who claim that the is no problem ("so what's all the
fuss about") to those who agree that there certainly is a difficult
problem - but by some stroke of genius and using advanced technology
that hasn't been invented yet, everything will turn out fine in the end.
However, when pressed for a precise explanation of how all this will
actually work, any explanation they give can immediately be seen to be
impracticable under the requirements I gave above.
Quite. Fiddling around won't solve the problem. Once we get a grip, we
will go back to the default position, which is a hard border. It's the
only thing that can conceivably work.
I suppose there could be a referendum on what the British people think about
the proposed solution : is it acceptable or not?
As it only really would affect people on the island of Ireland, why
not have a referendum of all of them. A big majority in the north
already voted to stay in, and despite some wobbles over the odd treaty I
am pretty sure there is a BIG majority in the south. The UK might
eventually manage to cut a few trade deals to partly make up for the
loss of the one with the EU and its 65 trading partners, but for minnow
Ireland - not a chance.



And if NI voted to stay in the UK? What then?
MM
2018-05-08 08:08:57 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
Post by Fredxx
Post by MM
Post by Fredxx
Neither of those will happen. It will be a border with spot checks
That is a hard border, by definition.
Only in your eyes. Any policed, occasionally or otherwise, border will
always be seen by you as a hard border.
So, in your eyes, you should expect a hard border and not be surprised
that will be the outcome.
It doesn't depend on what I think. The fact is, it's a hard border
compared to now and that is anathema to both the Republic and Northern
Ireland.
Oh dear, there's a problem. We'll have to cancel Brexit then.
Wash your mouth out with soap and water and go to your room
immediately!

MM
Norman Wells
2018-05-08 08:16:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by MM
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
Post by Fredxx
Post by MM
Post by Fredxx
Neither of those will happen. It will be a border with spot checks
That is a hard border, by definition.
Only in your eyes. Any policed, occasionally or otherwise, border will
always be seen by you as a hard border.
So, in your eyes, you should expect a hard border and not be surprised
that will be the outcome.
It doesn't depend on what I think. The fact is, it's a hard border
compared to now and that is anathema to both the Republic and Northern
Ireland.
Oh dear, there's a problem. We'll have to cancel Brexit then.
Wash your mouth out with soap and water and go to your room
immediately!
It's only what you and other rabid Remoaners say every time there's a
bump in the road.
Judith
2018-05-07 17:55:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fredxx
Post by MM
Post by Fredxx
Neither of those will happen. It will be a border with spot checks
That is a hard border, by definition.
Only in your eyes. Any policed, occasionally or otherwise, border will
always be seen by you as a hard border.
So, in your eyes, you should expect a hard border and not be surprised
that will be the outcome.
Why not share with us what *you* think the border between Eire and NI will be
then.
Yellow
2018-05-05 03:21:51 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by GB
Post by Norman Wells
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd have to
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.
But it's only what the rest of the world does.
1. Cancel Brexit.
2. Have some sort of BRINO, where we stay in the single market/customs
union/whatever. It's what's going to happen, so as to avoid the
climb-down of 1. It means we won't be able to close our borders to EU
nationals, so nobody will be happy.
I looked feasible up as I wasn't exactly sure of its precise definition
- possible and practical to do easily or conveniently, or likely or
probable.

So you think think simply cancelling Brexit is more feasible than a hard
border? Are you sure about that? :-)
MM
2018-05-05 11:27:11 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by GB
Post by Norman Wells
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd have to
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.
But it's only what the rest of the world does.
1. Cancel Brexit.
2. Have some sort of BRINO, where we stay in the single market/customs
union/whatever. It's what's going to happen, so as to avoid the
climb-down of 1. It means we won't be able to close our borders to EU
nationals, so nobody will be happy.
I looked feasible up as I wasn't exactly sure of its precise definition
- possible and practical to do easily or conveniently, or likely or
probable.
So you think think simply cancelling Brexit is more feasible than a hard
border? Are you sure about that? :-)
Since a hard border isn't going to happen, yes. Perhaps you can flog
your party poppers on eBay?

MM
tim...
2018-05-05 12:27:20 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by MM
Post by Yellow
Post by GB
Post by Norman Wells
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd have to
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.
But it's only what the rest of the world does.
1. Cancel Brexit.
2. Have some sort of BRINO, where we stay in the single market/customs
union/whatever. It's what's going to happen, so as to avoid the
climb-down of 1. It means we won't be able to close our borders to EU
nationals, so nobody will be happy.
I looked feasible up as I wasn't exactly sure of its precise definition
- possible and practical to do easily or conveniently, or likely or
probable.
So you think think simply cancelling Brexit is more feasible than a hard
border? Are you sure about that? :-)
Since a hard border isn't going to happen, yes.
what makes you so sure about that

As I have asked before

if we propose a solution with a 95% open border and the alternative to the
Irish accepting that is there is a "no deal" solution and a 100% hard border

which will they chose?

tim
Fredxx
2018-05-05 15:00:36 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by MM
Post by Yellow
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Norman Wells
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd
have to
Post by Norman Wells
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.
But it's only what the rest of the world does.
1. Cancel Brexit.
2. Have some sort of BRINO, where we stay in the single market/customs
union/whatever. It's what's going to happen, so as to avoid the
climb-down of 1. It means we won't be able to close our borders to EU
nationals, so nobody will be happy.
I looked feasible up as I wasn't exactly sure of its precise definition
- possible and practical to do easily or conveniently, or likely or
probable.
So you think think simply cancelling Brexit is more feasible than a hard
border? Are you sure about that? :-)
Since a hard border isn't going to happen, yes.
what makes you so sure about that
As I have asked before
if we propose a solution with a 95% open border and the alternative to
the Irish accepting that is there is a "no deal" solution and a 100%
hard border
which will they chose?
Either way MM will call it a hard border, even if everyone else thinks
differently. As long as it suits his undemocratic aims.
MM
2018-05-07 11:49:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fredxx
Post by tim...
Post by MM
Post by Yellow
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Norman Wells
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd
have to
Post by Norman Wells
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.
But it's only what the rest of the world does.
1. Cancel Brexit.
2. Have some sort of BRINO, where we stay in the single market/customs
union/whatever. It's what's going to happen, so as to avoid the
climb-down of 1. It means we won't be able to close our borders to EU
nationals, so nobody will be happy.
I looked feasible up as I wasn't exactly sure of its precise definition
- possible and practical to do easily or conveniently, or likely or
probable.
So you think think simply cancelling Brexit is more feasible than a hard
border? Are you sure about that? :-)
Since a hard border isn't going to happen, yes.
what makes you so sure about that
As I have asked before
if we propose a solution with a 95% open border and the alternative to
the Irish accepting that is there is a "no deal" solution and a 100%
hard border
which will they chose?
Either way MM will call it a hard border, even if everyone else thinks
differently. As long as it suits his undemocratic aims.
If you introduce ~any~ checks whatsoever, by definition it becomes a
hard border. You can slice and dice it any which way, but that's how
it is, a "solution" that is unacceptable to the DUP, on whose support
the Prime Minister depends.

MM
Norman Wells
2018-05-07 12:30:05 UTC
Reply
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Post by MM
Post by Fredxx
Post by tim...
Post by MM
Post by Yellow
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Norman Wells
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd
have to
Post by Norman Wells
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.
But it's only what the rest of the world does.
1. Cancel Brexit.
2. Have some sort of BRINO, where we stay in the single market/customs
union/whatever. It's what's going to happen, so as to avoid the
climb-down of 1. It means we won't be able to close our borders to EU
nationals, so nobody will be happy.
I looked feasible up as I wasn't exactly sure of its precise definition
- possible and practical to do easily or conveniently, or likely or
probable.
So you think think simply cancelling Brexit is more feasible than a hard
border? Are you sure about that? :-)
Since a hard border isn't going to happen, yes.
what makes you so sure about that
As I have asked before
if we propose a solution with a 95% open border and the alternative to
the Irish accepting that is there is a "no deal" solution and a 100%
hard border
which will they chose?
Either way MM will call it a hard border, even if everyone else thinks
differently. As long as it suits his undemocratic aims.
If you introduce ~any~ checks whatsoever, by definition it becomes a
hard border. You can slice and dice it any which way, but that's how
it is, a "solution" that is unacceptable to the DUP, on whose support
the Prime Minister depends.
That is the problem. But it's a problem that has to be tackled.

Who will suggest a hard border first, the UK or the EU?
MM
2018-05-08 08:28:25 UTC
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Post by Norman Wells
That is the problem. But it's a problem that has to be tackled.
Who will suggest a hard border first, the UK or the EU?
At the moment the default is a hard border, until the UK sees sense
and decides to stay in the customs union. Don't worry! The squeals
from Brexiters will only endure for a few days, tops.

MM
RH156RH
2018-05-08 09:03:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by MM
Post by Norman Wells
That is the problem. But it's a problem that has to be tackled.
Who will suggest a hard border first, the UK or the EU?
At the moment the default is a hard border, until the UK sees sense
and decides to stay in the customs union. Don't worry! The squeals
from Brexiters will only endure for a few days, tops.
MM
May should give the RoI a simple choice, remain in the EU and be treated as a third country or leave the EU with the UK and retain frictionless trade and free movement to and from the UK. RH
Norman Wells
2018-05-08 09:12:11 UTC
Reply
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Post by RH156RH
Post by MM
Post by Norman Wells
That is the problem. But it's a problem that has to be tackled.
Who will suggest a hard border first, the UK or the EU?
At the moment the default is a hard border, until the UK sees sense
and decides to stay in the customs union. Don't worry! The squeals
from Brexiters will only endure for a few days, tops.
MM
May should give the RoI a simple choice, remain in the EU and be treated as a third country or leave the EU with the UK and retain frictionless trade and free movement to and from the UK. RH
I'm not sure, but I think you'll find the Irish Republic is now an
independent nation that is not subject to being given a simple choice by
a UK Prime Minister.
tim...
2018-05-07 17:21:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by MM
Post by Fredxx
Post by tim...
Post by MM
Post by Yellow
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Norman Wells
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd
have to
Post by Norman Wells
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.
But it's only what the rest of the world does.
1. Cancel Brexit.
2. Have some sort of BRINO, where we stay in the single
market/customs
union/whatever. It's what's going to happen, so as to avoid the
climb-down of 1. It means we won't be able to close our borders to EU
nationals, so nobody will be happy.
I looked feasible up as I wasn't exactly sure of its precise definition
- possible and practical to do easily or conveniently, or likely or
probable.
So you think think simply cancelling Brexit is more feasible than a hard
border? Are you sure about that? :-)
Since a hard border isn't going to happen, yes.
what makes you so sure about that
As I have asked before
if we propose a solution with a 95% open border and the alternative to
the Irish accepting that is there is a "no deal" solution and a 100%
hard border
which will they chose?
Either way MM will call it a hard border, even if everyone else thinks
differently. As long as it suits his undemocratic aims.
If you introduce ~any~ checks whatsoever, by definition it becomes a
hard border.
but there are already checks

for contraband and cross border VAT fraud

tim
MM
2018-05-07 11:47:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by MM
Post by Yellow
Post by GB
Post by Norman Wells
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd have to
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.
But it's only what the rest of the world does.
1. Cancel Brexit.
2. Have some sort of BRINO, where we stay in the single market/customs
union/whatever. It's what's going to happen, so as to avoid the
climb-down of 1. It means we won't be able to close our borders to EU
nationals, so nobody will be happy.
I looked feasible up as I wasn't exactly sure of its precise definition
- possible and practical to do easily or conveniently, or likely or
probable.
So you think think simply cancelling Brexit is more feasible than a hard
border? Are you sure about that? :-)
Since a hard border isn't going to happen, yes.
what makes you so sure about that
Because the DUP won't support it, and without the DUP the government
is toast.

MM
Norman Wells
2018-05-07 12:31:41 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by MM
Post by tim...
Post by MM
Post by Yellow
Post by GB
Post by Norman Wells
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd have to
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.
But it's only what the rest of the world does.
1. Cancel Brexit.
2. Have some sort of BRINO, where we stay in the single market/customs
union/whatever. It's what's going to happen, so as to avoid the
climb-down of 1. It means we won't be able to close our borders to EU
nationals, so nobody will be happy.
I looked feasible up as I wasn't exactly sure of its precise definition
- possible and practical to do easily or conveniently, or likely or
probable.
So you think think simply cancelling Brexit is more feasible than a hard
border? Are you sure about that? :-)
Since a hard border isn't going to happen, yes.
what makes you so sure about that
Because the DUP won't support it, and without the DUP the government
is toast.
Not necessarily. But it is a consideration.
tim...
2018-05-07 17:20:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by MM
Post by tim...
Post by MM
Post by Yellow
Post by GB
Post by Norman Wells
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd have to
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.
But it's only what the rest of the world does.
1. Cancel Brexit.
2. Have some sort of BRINO, where we stay in the single market/customs
union/whatever. It's what's going to happen, so as to avoid the
climb-down of 1. It means we won't be able to close our borders to EU
nationals, so nobody will be happy.
I looked feasible up as I wasn't exactly sure of its precise definition
- possible and practical to do easily or conveniently, or likely or
probable.
So you think think simply cancelling Brexit is more feasible than a hard
border? Are you sure about that? :-)
Since a hard border isn't going to happen, yes.
what makes you so sure about that
Because the DUP won't support it, and without the DUP the government
is toast.
I've told you before

It's the least worst option for the DUP. They wont veto it if all the
alternative options fail

tim
Post by MM
MM
Judith
2018-05-07 18:04:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by MM
Post by Yellow
Post by GB
Post by Norman Wells
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd have to
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.
But it's only what the rest of the world does.
1. Cancel Brexit.
2. Have some sort of BRINO, where we stay in the single market/customs
union/whatever. It's what's going to happen, so as to avoid the
climb-down of 1. It means we won't be able to close our borders to EU
nationals, so nobody will be happy.
I looked feasible up as I wasn't exactly sure of its precise definition
- possible and practical to do easily or conveniently, or likely or
probable.
So you think think simply cancelling Brexit is more feasible than a hard
border? Are you sure about that? :-)
Since a hard border isn't going to happen, yes.
what makes you so sure about that
Oh dear: surely you are not suggesting Mayhem was lying when she said:

"In Northern Ireland we guarantee there will be no hard border," May told a
press conference with Juncker."


You could well be right: she has of course lied before.
GB
2018-05-05 15:41:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by GB
Post by Norman Wells
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd have to
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.
But it's only what the rest of the world does.
1. Cancel Brexit.
2. Have some sort of BRINO, where we stay in the single market/customs
union/whatever. It's what's going to happen, so as to avoid the
climb-down of 1. It means we won't be able to close our borders to EU
nationals, so nobody will be happy.
I looked feasible up as I wasn't exactly sure of its precise definition
- possible and practical to do easily or conveniently, or likely or
probable.
So you think think simply cancelling Brexit is more feasible than a hard
border? Are you sure about that? :-)
Oh, that's interesting. I wrote "several more feasible solutions",
meaning "other solutions that are also feasible". You read it as meaning
"other solutions that are more feasible".

"several more" = others

:)
harry
2018-05-05 07:57:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by GB
Post by Norman Wells
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd have to
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.
But it's only what the rest of the world does.
1. Cancel Brexit.
2. Have some sort of BRINO, where we stay in the
3. Ireland leaves the EUSSR.
MM
2018-05-05 11:27:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by harry
Post by GB
Post by Norman Wells
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd have to
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.
But it's only what the rest of the world does.
1. Cancel Brexit.
2. Have some sort of BRINO, where we stay in the
3. Ireland leaves the EUSSR.
That is about as likely as the moon falling into the sea.

MM
R. Mark Clayton
2018-05-06 13:41:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by GB
Post by Norman Wells
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd have to
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.
But it's only what the rest of the world does.
1. Cancel Brexit.
2. Have some sort of BRINO, where we stay in the single market/customs
union/whatever. It's what's going to happen, so as to avoid the
climb-down of 1. It means we won't be able to close our borders to EU
nationals, so nobody will be happy.
Or seeing how NI voted strongly remain and the unionists are now in a minority - join the republic and stay in the EU.
tim...
2018-05-06 14:25:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by GB
Post by Norman Wells
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd have to
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.
But it's only what the rest of the world does.
1. Cancel Brexit.
2. Have some sort of BRINO, where we stay in the single market/customs
union/whatever. It's what's going to happen, so as to avoid the
climb-down of 1. It means we won't be able to close our borders to EU
nationals, so nobody will be happy.
Or seeing how NI voted strongly remain and the unionists are now in a
minority
no the unionists are not in the minority

people who vote for unionist parties might be but that's because many of
them vote for the non-aligned alliance party.

but they would still vote "no" in a referendum on joining RoI.

tim
Post by R. Mark Clayton
- join the republic and stay in the EU.
R. Mark Clayton
2018-05-06 14:51:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by GB
Post by Norman Wells
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd have to
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.
But it's only what the rest of the world does.
1. Cancel Brexit.
2. Have some sort of BRINO, where we stay in the single market/customs
union/whatever. It's what's going to happen, so as to avoid the
climb-down of 1. It means we won't be able to close our borders to EU
nationals, so nobody will be happy.
Or seeing how NI voted strongly remain and the unionists are now in a
minority
no the unionists are not in the minority
people who vote for unionist parties might be but that's because many of
them vote for the non-aligned alliance party.
but they would still vote "no" in a referendum on joining RoI.
DUP + UUP - 46.3%
SF + SDLP - 41.1%
Alliance - 7.9%

pretty close!
Post by tim...
tim
Post by R. Mark Clayton
- join the republic and stay in the EU.
Yellow
2018-05-06 15:08:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 6 May 2018 07:51:03 -0700 (PDT), R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by GB
Post by Norman Wells
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd have to
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.
But it's only what the rest of the world does.
1. Cancel Brexit.
2. Have some sort of BRINO, where we stay in the single market/customs
union/whatever. It's what's going to happen, so as to avoid the
climb-down of 1. It means we won't be able to close our borders to EU
nationals, so nobody will be happy.
Or seeing how NI voted strongly remain and the unionists are now in a
minority
no the unionists are not in the minority
people who vote for unionist parties might be but that's because many of
them vote for the non-aligned alliance party.
but they would still vote "no" in a referendum on joining RoI.
DUP + UUP - 46.3%
SF + SDLP - 41.1%
Alliance - 7.9%
pretty close!
Post by tim...
tim
Post by R. Mark Clayton
- join the republic and stay in the EU.
40/60 is not close.
Fredxx
2018-05-06 21:32:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
On Sun, 6 May 2018 07:51:03 -0700 (PDT), R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by GB
Post by Norman Wells
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd have to
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.
But it's only what the rest of the world does.
1. Cancel Brexit.
2. Have some sort of BRINO, where we stay in the single market/customs
union/whatever. It's what's going to happen, so as to avoid the
climb-down of 1. It means we won't be able to close our borders to EU
nationals, so nobody will be happy.
Or seeing how NI voted strongly remain and the unionists are now in a
minority
no the unionists are not in the minority
people who vote for unionist parties might be but that's because many of
them vote for the non-aligned alliance party.
but they would still vote "no" in a referendum on joining RoI.
DUP + UUP - 46.3%
SF + SDLP - 41.1%
Alliance - 7.9%
pretty close!
Post by tim...
tim
Post by R. Mark Clayton
- join the republic and stay in the EU.
40/60 is not close.
And Sinn Fein really don't count if they can't be arsed to take up their
seats. Talk about a wasted vote.
Ophelia
2018-05-07 07:46:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
On Sun, 6 May 2018 07:51:03 -0700 (PDT), R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by GB
Post by Norman Wells
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd have to
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.
But it's only what the rest of the world does.
1. Cancel Brexit.
2. Have some sort of BRINO, where we stay in the single market/customs
union/whatever. It's what's going to happen, so as to avoid the
climb-down of 1. It means we won't be able to close our borders to EU
nationals, so nobody will be happy.
Or seeing how NI voted strongly remain and the unionists are now in a
minority
no the unionists are not in the minority
people who vote for unionist parties might be but that's because many of
them vote for the non-aligned alliance party.
but they would still vote "no" in a referendum on joining RoI.
DUP + UUP - 46.3%
SF + SDLP - 41.1%
Alliance - 7.9%
pretty close!
Post by tim...
tim
Post by R. Mark Clayton
- join the republic and stay in the EU.
40/60 is not close.
And Sinn Fein really don't count if they can't be arsed to take up their
seats. Talk about a wasted vote.
==

Why can the EU not decide what will happen with the border and get on with
it?

No, they just want to cause problems for us.

May should just tell them to get on with whatever it is they want!
Pelican
2018-05-07 08:01:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fredxx
Post by Yellow
On Sun, 6 May 2018 07:51:03 -0700 (PDT), R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by GB
Post by Norman Wells
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd have to
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.
But it's only what the rest of the world does.
1. Cancel Brexit.
2. Have some sort of BRINO, where we stay in the single
market/customs
union/whatever. It's what's going to happen, so as to avoid the
climb-down of 1. It means we won't be able to close our borders to EU
nationals, so nobody will be happy.
Or seeing how NI voted strongly remain and the unionists are now in a
minority
no the unionists are not in the minority
people who vote for unionist parties might be but that's because many of
them vote for the non-aligned alliance party.
but they would still vote "no" in a referendum on joining RoI.
DUP + UUP - 46.3%
SF + SDLP - 41.1%
Alliance - 7.9%
pretty close!
Post by tim...
tim
Post by R. Mark Clayton
- join the republic and stay in the EU.
40/60 is not close.
And Sinn Fein really don't count if they can't be arsed to take up their
seats. Talk about a wasted vote.
==
Why can the EU not decide what will happen with the border and get on
with it?
No, they just want to cause problems for us.
May should just tell them to get on with whatever it is they want!
She doesn't have that as an option.
MM
2018-05-07 11:50:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
On Sun, 6 May 2018 07:51:03 -0700 (PDT), R. Mark Clayton
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by GB
Post by Norman Wells
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd have to
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.
But it's only what the rest of the world does.
1. Cancel Brexit.
2. Have some sort of BRINO, where we stay in the single market/customs
union/whatever. It's what's going to happen, so as to avoid the
climb-down of 1. It means we won't be able to close our borders to EU
nationals, so nobody will be happy.
Or seeing how NI voted strongly remain and the unionists are now in a
minority
no the unionists are not in the minority
people who vote for unionist parties might be but that's because many of
them vote for the non-aligned alliance party.
but they would still vote "no" in a referendum on joining RoI.
DUP + UUP - 46.3%
SF + SDLP - 41.1%
Alliance - 7.9%
pretty close!
Post by tim...
tim
Post by R. Mark Clayton
- join the republic and stay in the EU.
40/60 is not close.
What about 48/52?

MM
peterwn
2018-05-05 03:26:26 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Judith
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wonder if any of the ardent articulate Brexiteers here could help me out.
I cannot understand what the Tory Government's options are in dealing with the
border between NI and Eire.
I wonder if a Brexiteer who understands the issues could just identify the
preferred solution for us all.
I am sure that there is an easy answer, which was identified by the Tories
before they decided on having a free-for-all with the referendum and what has
followed.
What is it please?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Obviously as the Government have moved on in a significant way in the last
six months the situation will now be much clearer.
Looking forward to considered responses.
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd have to
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.
But it's only what the rest of the world does.
Donald Trump can help advise on a hard border.
tim...
2018-05-05 12:28:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by peterwn
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Judith
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wonder if any of the ardent articulate Brexiteers here could help me out.
I cannot understand what the Tory Government's options are in dealing with the
border between NI and Eire.
I wonder if a Brexiteer who understands the issues could just identify the
preferred solution for us all.
I am sure that there is an easy answer, which was identified by the Tories
before they decided on having a free-for-all with the referendum and what has
followed.
What is it please?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Obviously as the Government have moved on in a significant way in the last
six months the situation will now be much clearer.
Looking forward to considered responses.
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd have to
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.
But it's only what the rest of the world does.
Donald Trump can help advise on a hard border.
that's people (and contraband) he is worried about

the Irish border will always be open for free movement of people and always
policed for contraband (just as it is now)

tim
Fredxx
2018-05-05 15:02:03 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by peterwn
Post by Judith
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wonder if any of the ardent articulate  Brexiteers here could
help me > out.
I cannot understand what the Tory Government's options are in
dealing > with the
border between NI and Eire.
I wonder if a Brexiteer who understands the issues could just
identify > the
preferred solution for us all.
I am sure that there is an easy answer, which was identified by the Tories
before they decided on having a free-for-all with the referendum
and > what has
followed.
What is it please?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Obviously as the Government  have moved on in a significant way  in
the > last
six months the situation will now be much clearer.
Looking forward to considered responses.
If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border, I'd have to
kill you, so I couldn't possibly.
But it's only what the rest of the world does.
Donald Trump can help advise on a hard border.
that's people (and contraband) he is worried about
the Irish border will always be open for free movement of people and
always policed for contraband (just as it is now)
Shh, don't tell MM or he will think we already have a 'hard' border.
MM
2018-05-07 11:54:45 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Fredxx
Shh, don't tell MM or he will think we already have a 'hard' border.
Don't tell MM what? He hasn't explained yet how his idea that the
border between the Republic and Northern Ireland is policed for
contraband.

MM
Judith
2018-05-07 18:08:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by MM
Post by Fredxx
Shh, don't tell MM or he will think we already have a 'hard' border.
Don't tell MM what? He hasn't explained yet how his idea that the
border between the Republic and Northern Ireland is policed for
contraband.
MM
There are thousands of vehicles cross the NI/Eire border everyday: and each and
everyone of them is searched for contraband.

I thinks that that is how it works.
MM
2018-05-07 11:53:18 UTC
Reply
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Post by tim...
(just as it is now)
How?

Did you mean the same way every part of Britain is policed for
contraband as a matter of course in fighting crime? Dover? Harwich?
Heathrow? etc etc

MM
R. Mark Clayton
2018-05-07 14:02:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by MM
Post by tim...
(just as it is now)
How?
Did you mean the same way every part of Britain is policed for
contraband as a matter of course in fighting crime? Dover? Harwich?
Heathrow? etc etc
MM
Holyhead, Fishguard. I remember getting hassled coming back once ~1985 - one Irish and two Brit's in the car, travelled out Holyhead - Dun Laorghie, but back Rosslaire - Fishgaurd for a short motoring holiday.
MM
2018-05-05 11:25:24 UTC
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If I told you the only feasible solution is a hard border...
...which won't happen, therefore the only feasible solution is to
cancel Brexit.

MM
tim...
2018-05-04 17:32:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Judith
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wonder if any of the ardent articulate Brexiteers here could help me out.
I cannot understand what the Tory Government's options are in dealing with the
border between NI and Eire.
I wonder if a Brexiteer who understands the issues could just identify the
preferred solution for us all.
I am sure that there is an easy answer, which was identified by the Tories
before they decided on having a free-for-all with the referendum and what has
followed.
What is it please?
we have a free trade deal with the EU and then don't worry about it

And there was a time when the EU thought that acceptable. Until they saw a
way of leveraging bogus complaints about it to make us stay in

tim
pamela
2018-05-04 17:54:00 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
we have a free trade deal with the EU and then don't worry about it

And there was a time when the EU thought that acceptable. Until they saw a
way of leveraging bogus complaints about it to make us stay in

tim

And not one leftycunt like Judith has come up with a solution either.

--
Ophelia
2018-05-05 10:37:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
we have a free trade deal with the EU and then don't worry about it
And there was a time when the EU thought that acceptable. Until
they saw a way of leveraging bogus complaints about it to make us
stay in
tim
And not one leftycunt like Judith has come up with a solution
either.

----------------

And not one leftycunt like Pamela has come up with a solution
either.
Ophelia
2018-05-05 15:25:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
we have a free trade deal with the EU and then don't worry about it
And there was a time when the EU thought that acceptable. Until
they saw a way of leveraging bogus complaints about it to make us
stay in
tim
And not one leftycunt like Judith has come up with a solution
either.

----------------

And not one leftycunt like Pamela has come up with a solution
either.

==

I DIDN'T WRITE THAT.
pamela
2018-05-05 15:31:39 UTC
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"Ophelia" wrote in message news:***@mid.individual.net...


And not one leftycunt like Judith has come up with a solution
either.

----------------

And not one leftycunt like Pamela has come up with a solution
either.



I DIDN'T WRITE THAT.

The Group knows that.

Poor "Pamela" a sad little excuse of a man, posting using a woman's name.

Must be not well in the head.

--
Opamela
2018-05-06 10:45:41 UTC
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Post by pamela
And not one leftycunt like Judith has come up with a solution
either.
----------------
And not one leftycunt like Pamela has come up with a solution either.
I DIDN'T WRITE THAT.

The Group knows that.

Poor "Pamela" a sad little excuse of a man, posting using a woman's name.

Must be not well in the head.

===

I DIDN'T WRITE THAT.

The Group knows that.

Aye, what do you think?
Yellow
2018-05-05 15:36:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by pamela
Post by tim...
we have a free trade deal with the EU and then don't worry about it
And there was a time when the EU thought that acceptable. Until
they saw a way of leveraging bogus complaints about it to make us
stay in
tim
And not one leftycunt like Judith has come up with a solution
either.
----------------
And not one leftycunt like Pamela has come up with a solution
either.
==
I DIDN'T WRITE THAT.
This is why it is worth including people's email address in the text the
news reader inserts at the top.
Judith
2018-05-07 18:12:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
we have a free trade deal with the EU and then don't worry about it
And there was a time when the EU thought that acceptable. Until they saw a
way of leveraging bogus complaints about it to make us stay in
tim
And not one leftycunt like Judith has come up with a solution either.
Sorry: why should *I* come up with a solution.

The Tories were the ones who "created" the referendum - just to try and keep
themselves together.

It was predicted it would turn to rat-shit - and it has.


Perfect result for me.
Yellow
2018-05-05 03:27:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by Judith
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wonder if any of the ardent articulate Brexiteers here could help me out.
I cannot understand what the Tory Government's options are in dealing with the
border between NI and Eire.
I wonder if a Brexiteer who understands the issues could just identify the
preferred solution for us all.
I am sure that there is an easy answer, which was identified by the Tories
before they decided on having a free-for-all with the referendum and what has
followed.
What is it please?
we have a free trade deal with the EU and then don't worry about it
And there was a time when the EU thought that acceptable. Until they saw a
way of leveraging bogus complaints about it to make us stay in
The problem those who are trying to use the Irish border as a stick to
beat us with is that no one believes it to be a real issue. And that
includes the people claim they do.
Norman Wells
2018-05-05 07:41:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
The problem those who are trying to use the Irish border as a stick to
beat us with is that no one believes it to be a real issue. And that
includes the people claim they do.
Well, it is a real issue since, when we leave the EU, there will have to
be some controls over the free movement of goods and people across the
border. Otherwise, we'll have a lot of smuggling of goods, and an
unpoliced backdoor for illegal immigrants already in the EU to come into
the UK.

So, something has to be done, the baseline and default position being
that there has to be a hard border. That's being portrayed as a Bad
Thing, but it isn't really. It's what every other sovereign nation has
around its edges, so it's obviously workable and reasonably effective.

It's silly for the government to pretend otherwise, and it's not
surprising that the EU doesn't think any of its fanciful automated
schemes can work.

But the EU isn't blameless in all this. It says it's for the UK alone
to propose a solution, but then for its own reasons rejects everything
the UK suggests.

But that's utterly disingenuous. A border is not for one country alone
to operate. Both sides have an equal interest, possibly only a few
yards apart. Whatever sort of border we propose on our side of the
line, the EU will have to have its own sort on the Irish side. But it
has suggested nothing. It wants to avoid being bogged down in what, in
the absence of a hard border, is a totally unsolvable problem.

Someone, somewhere, sometime, will have to say a hard border is the only
viable option. And it's as much for the EU to say so as it is for the
UK, which happens to be in a particular political bind over it.
tim...
2018-05-05 12:32:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Yellow
The problem those who are trying to use the Irish border as a stick to
beat us with is that no one believes it to be a real issue. And that
includes the people claim they do.
Well, it is a real issue since, when we leave the EU, there will have to
be some controls over the free movement of goods and people across the
border. Otherwise, we'll have a lot of smuggling of goods, and an
unpoliced backdoor for illegal immigrants already in the EU to come into
the UK.
We do not need to police immigrants coming in through an open back door, as
we will have an open front door to most of them and no process for stopping
overstaying.

we will always have to police "illegals" overstaying by stoping them
working/ finding somewhere to live at point of use.

There is no other way

tim
Norman Wells
2018-05-05 17:58:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Yellow
The problem those who are trying to use the Irish border as a stick to
beat us with is that no one believes it to be a real issue. And that
includes the people claim they do.
Well, it is a real issue since, when we leave the EU, there will have
to be some controls over the free movement of goods and people across
the border.  Otherwise, we'll have a lot of smuggling of goods, and an
unpoliced backdoor for illegal immigrants already in the EU to come
into the UK.
We do not need to police immigrants coming in through an open back door,
I think we do. Why do you thimnk all the barriers have been erected in
Calais?
Post by tim...
as we will have an open front door to most of them and no process for
stopping overstaying.
we will always have to police "illegals" overstaying by stoping them
working/ finding somewhere to live at point of use.
There is no other way
That is necessary too.
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