Discussion:
Will Tory supporters finally acknowledge that the NHS is NOT safe under this government
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MM
2017-01-07 22:30:58 UTC
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There is a crisis in the NHS right now. Labour when in office brought
the waiting lists right down. Now under the Tories it's chaos.
Patients are dying on trolleys after a 35-hour wait. Ambulances cannot
go out on call because they have to wait for 4 hours outside hospitals
until beds to become free. And all the Tories say is, the NHS has
received pelnty of extra funds.

This cannot go on. It is only just after the beginning of January.
There are nearly 3 months still to go of the winter. A major terrorist
attack in the UK, a train crash, a motorway pile-up in fog and the NHS
will be hard-pushed to see all victims in a timely manner AND give
them the treatment they urgently need. Already the NHS is calling on
the Red Cross to help out. The situation is truly dire. It could be
YOUR loved one that has been run over by a police car on blues & twos
in pursuit of a twocker. Will she or he even see an ambulance inside
an hour?

You have to ask yourself, why is this happening under the Tories? And
I can tell you why: The Tories' grand plan for the NHS is to remove
the word 'National' from the title as they finally succeed in
privatising it.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jan/07/theresa-may-urged-to-get-grip-on-nhs-winter-crisis

MM
Norman Wells
2017-01-07 22:41:24 UTC
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Post by MM
There is a crisis in the NHS right now. Labour when in office brought
the waiting lists right down. Now under the Tories it's chaos.
Patients are dying on trolleys after a 35-hour wait. Ambulances cannot
go out on call because they have to wait for 4 hours outside hospitals
until beds to become free. And all the Tories say is, the NHS has
received pelnty of extra funds.
This cannot go on. It is only just after the beginning of January.
There are nearly 3 months still to go of the winter. A major terrorist
attack in the UK, a train crash, a motorway pile-up in fog and the NHS
will be hard-pushed to see all victims in a timely manner AND give
them the treatment they urgently need. Already the NHS is calling on
the Red Cross to help out. The situation is truly dire. It could be
YOUR loved one that has been run over by a police car on blues & twos
in pursuit of a twocker. Will she or he even see an ambulance inside
an hour?
You have to ask yourself, why is this happening under the Tories? And
I can tell you why: The Tories' grand plan for the NHS is to remove
the word 'National' from the title as they finally succeed in
privatising it.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jan/07/theresa-may-urged-to-get-grip-on-nhs-winter-crisis
The real reason is hugely increased demand, especially from those who think it's for
any trivial condition they have and they're entitled to it without question because
it's 'free'.

There's a lack of respect for it, there's no understanding of what it actually
costs, and there's no personal responsibility amongst most of its customers.

Abuse is absolutely typical of any service that is provided free at the point of
delivery, so it needs to stop being free. People need to be charged at least a
nominal amout every time they use it, and be penalised quite heavily if they use it
unnecessarily. It's the only way to reintroduce the respect it deserves and reduce
unnecessary demand.

And if that means it has to be privatised, that's fine by me.
Sid
2017-01-07 22:56:20 UTC
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Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
There is a crisis in the NHS right now. Labour when in office brought
the waiting lists right down. Now under the Tories it's chaos.
Patients are dying on trolleys after a 35-hour wait. Ambulances cannot
go out on call because they have to wait for 4 hours outside hospitals
until beds to become free. And all the Tories say is, the NHS has
received pelnty of extra funds.
This cannot go on. It is only just after the beginning of January.
There are nearly 3 months still to go of the winter. A major terrorist
attack in the UK, a train crash, a motorway pile-up in fog and the NHS
will be hard-pushed to see all victims in a timely manner AND give
them the treatment they urgently need. Already the NHS is calling on
the Red Cross to help out. The situation is truly dire. It could be
YOUR loved one that has been run over by a police car on blues & twos
in pursuit of a twocker. Will she or he even see an ambulance inside
an hour?
You have to ask yourself, why is this happening under the Tories? And
I can tell you why: The Tories' grand plan for the NHS is to remove
the word 'National' from the title as they finally succeed in
privatising it.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jan/07/theresa-may-urged-to-get-grip-on-nhs-winter-crisis
The real reason is hugely increased demand, especially from those who
think it's for any trivial condition they have and they're entitled to
it without question because it's 'free'.
There's a lack of respect for it, there's no understanding of what it
actually costs, and there's no personal responsibility amongst most of
its customers.
Abuse is absolutely typical of any service that is provided free at the
point of delivery, so it needs to stop being free. People need to be
charged at least a nominal amout every time they use it, and be
penalised quite heavily if they use it unnecessarily. It's the only way
to reintroduce the respect it deserves and reduce unnecessary demand.
And if that means it has to be privatised, that's fine by me.
Poor MM Dear.

Labour will not be in office for a long time and the sooner they
privatise the NHS the better.

Well said Norman.
Judith
2017-01-08 12:05:12 UTC
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Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
There is a crisis in the NHS right now. Labour when in office brought
the waiting lists right down. Now under the Tories it's chaos.
Patients are dying on trolleys after a 35-hour wait. Ambulances cannot
go out on call because they have to wait for 4 hours outside hospitals
until beds to become free. And all the Tories say is, the NHS has
received pelnty of extra funds.
This cannot go on. It is only just after the beginning of January.
There are nearly 3 months still to go of the winter. A major terrorist
attack in the UK, a train crash, a motorway pile-up in fog and the NHS
will be hard-pushed to see all victims in a timely manner AND give
them the treatment they urgently need. Already the NHS is calling on
the Red Cross to help out. The situation is truly dire. It could be
YOUR loved one that has been run over by a police car on blues & twos
in pursuit of a twocker. Will she or he even see an ambulance inside
an hour?
You have to ask yourself, why is this happening under the Tories? And
I can tell you why: The Tories' grand plan for the NHS is to remove
the word 'National' from the title as they finally succeed in
privatising it.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jan/07/theresa-may-urged-to-get-grip-on-nhs-winter-crisis
The real reason is hugely increased demand
..... because people cannot get to see their GP for a week due to the Tories
having fucked up the NHS.

Perhaps they would like to see it privatised.

Oh hang on - isn't that happening by stealth already?
Handsome Jack
2017-01-08 18:10:47 UTC
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Post by Judith
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
You have to ask yourself, why is this happening under the Tories? And
I can tell you why: The Tories' grand plan for the NHS is to remove
the word 'National' from the title as they finally succeed in
privatising it.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jan/07/theresa-may-urged-to-g
et-grip-on-nhs-winter-crisis
The real reason is hugely increased demand
..... because people cannot get to see their GP for a week due to the Tories
having fucked up the NHS.
No, it's not the Tories. They haven't actually changed *anything*, aside
from raising GP budgets.

Everything that has happened to GP services since the current government
came in was already happening in the Blair and Brown governments and the
2010 Coalition government. It is a continuing process, largely
independent of party politics. The main causes are immigration,
demographics, failing social services, and the retirement and
expatriation of GPs.

The only real landmark change was the Hewitt clusterfuck of 2006, when
GP practices were allowed to drop the out of hours component of their
GMS contract for next to no financial loss. That loaded a huge amount of
extra pressure on A& E departments.
Post by Judith
Perhaps they would like to see it privatised.
Oh hang on - isn't that happening by stealth already?
No, not any more than it was in the Blair-Brown years.
--
Jack
Judith
2017-01-09 17:11:35 UTC
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On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 18:10:47 +0000, Handsome Jack <***@nowhere.com> wrote:

<snip>
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Judith
Perhaps they would like to see it privatised.
Oh hang on - isn't that happening by stealth already?
No, not any more than it was in the Blair-Brown years.
Department of Health (DH) figures show that the amount of its funding that has
gone to “independent sector providers” more than doubled from £4.1bn in
2009-10, Labour’s last year in power, to £8.7bn in 2015-16.

HTH
JNugent
2017-01-09 18:11:01 UTC
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Post by Judith
<snip>
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Judith
Perhaps they would like to see it privatised.
Oh hang on - isn't that happening by stealth already?
No, not any more than it was in the Blair-Brown years.
Department of Health (DH) figures show that the amount of its funding that has
gone to “independent sector providers” more than doubled from £4.1bn in
2009-10, Labour’s last year in power, to £8.7bn in 2015-16.
How much of that is spent on buying drugs from the pharmaceutical companies?

New drugs are invented, tested, improved, tested again, eventually
approved and prescribed.
Joe
2017-01-09 18:42:33 UTC
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On Mon, 9 Jan 2017 18:11:01 +0000
Post by JNugent
Post by Judith
<snip>
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Judith
Perhaps they would like to see it privatised.
Oh hang on - isn't that happening by stealth already?
No, not any more than it was in the Blair-Brown years.
Department of Health (DH) figures show that the amount of its
funding that has gone to “independent sector providers” more than
doubled from £4.1bn in 2009-10, Labour’s last year in power, to
£8.7bn in 2015-16.
How much of that is spent on buying drugs from the pharmaceutical companies?
New drugs are invented, tested, improved, tested again, eventually
approved and prescribed.
And old drugs become more expensive to manufacture...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/12/07/drug-firms-fined-90m-hiking-price-nhs-epilepsy-drug-2600pc/

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/boss-epipen-firm-gives-herself-8697652
--
Joe
Handsome Jack
2017-01-09 19:28:47 UTC
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Post by Judith
<snip>
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Judith
Perhaps they would like to see it privatised.
Oh hang on - isn't that happening by stealth already?
No, not any more than it was in the Blair-Brown years.
Department of Health (DH) figures show that the amount of its funding that has
gone to “independent sector providers” more than doubled from £4.1bn in
2009-10, Labour’s last year in power, to £8.7bn in 2015-16.
HTH
Provide a link to your source, then we can discuss it. Do
partnership-owned GP practices count as "independent sector providers"?
--
Jack
Judith
2017-01-11 11:21:44 UTC
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Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Judith
<snip>
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Judith
Perhaps they would like to see it privatised.
Oh hang on - isn't that happening by stealth already?
No, not any more than it was in the Blair-Brown years.
Department of Health (DH) figures show that the amount of its funding that has
gone to “independent sector providers” more than doubled from £4.1bn in
2009-10, Labour’s last year in power, to £8.7bn in 2015-16.
HTH
Provide a link to your source, then we can discuss it.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/aug/15/creeping-privatisation-nhs-official-data-owen-smith-outsourcing
Fredxxx
2017-01-07 22:46:40 UTC
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Post by MM
There is a crisis in the NHS right now. Labour when in office brought
the waiting lists right down. Now under the Tories it's chaos.
Patients are dying on trolleys after a 35-hour wait. Ambulances cannot
go out on call because they have to wait for 4 hours outside hospitals
until beds to become free. And all the Tories say is, the NHS has
received pelnty of extra funds.
This cannot go on. It is only just after the beginning of January.
There are nearly 3 months still to go of the winter. A major terrorist
attack in the UK, a train crash, a motorway pile-up in fog and the NHS
will be hard-pushed to see all victims in a timely manner AND give
them the treatment they urgently need. Already the NHS is calling on
the Red Cross to help out. The situation is truly dire. It could be
YOUR loved one that has been run over by a police car on blues & twos
in pursuit of a twocker. Will she or he even see an ambulance inside
an hour?
You have to ask yourself, why is this happening under the Tories? And
I can tell you why: The Tories' grand plan for the NHS is to remove
the word 'National' from the title as they finally succeed in
privatising it.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jan/07/theresa-may-urged-to-get-grip-on-nhs-winter-crisis
Not helped by 3 million immigration over the past 10 years.
MM
2017-01-08 08:29:59 UTC
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Post by Fredxxx
Post by MM
There is a crisis in the NHS right now. Labour when in office brought
the waiting lists right down. Now under the Tories it's chaos.
Patients are dying on trolleys after a 35-hour wait. Ambulances cannot
go out on call because they have to wait for 4 hours outside hospitals
until beds to become free. And all the Tories say is, the NHS has
received pelnty of extra funds.
This cannot go on. It is only just after the beginning of January.
There are nearly 3 months still to go of the winter. A major terrorist
attack in the UK, a train crash, a motorway pile-up in fog and the NHS
will be hard-pushed to see all victims in a timely manner AND give
them the treatment they urgently need. Already the NHS is calling on
the Red Cross to help out. The situation is truly dire. It could be
YOUR loved one that has been run over by a police car on blues & twos
in pursuit of a twocker. Will she or he even see an ambulance inside
an hour?
You have to ask yourself, why is this happening under the Tories? And
I can tell you why: The Tories' grand plan for the NHS is to remove
the word 'National' from the title as they finally succeed in
privatising it.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jan/07/theresa-may-urged-to-get-grip-on-nhs-winter-crisis
Not helped by 3 million immigration over the past 10 years.
You are much more likely to find an immigrant doctor or nurse treating
you as a patient than being a patient. Certainly, migrant workers from
Eastern Europe are fit, young and healthy, and rarely need the NHS.

But, hey! Just toss that headline-grabbing 3 million figure out there
and let the post-truth mud stick to the wall some more!

MM
Fredxxx
2017-01-08 11:14:56 UTC
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Post by MM
Post by Fredxxx
Post by MM
There is a crisis in the NHS right now. Labour when in office brought
the waiting lists right down. Now under the Tories it's chaos.
Patients are dying on trolleys after a 35-hour wait. Ambulances cannot
go out on call because they have to wait for 4 hours outside hospitals
until beds to become free. And all the Tories say is, the NHS has
received pelnty of extra funds.
This cannot go on. It is only just after the beginning of January.
There are nearly 3 months still to go of the winter. A major terrorist
attack in the UK, a train crash, a motorway pile-up in fog and the NHS
will be hard-pushed to see all victims in a timely manner AND give
them the treatment they urgently need. Already the NHS is calling on
the Red Cross to help out. The situation is truly dire. It could be
YOUR loved one that has been run over by a police car on blues & twos
in pursuit of a twocker. Will she or he even see an ambulance inside
an hour?
You have to ask yourself, why is this happening under the Tories? And
I can tell you why: The Tories' grand plan for the NHS is to remove
the word 'National' from the title as they finally succeed in
privatising it.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jan/07/theresa-may-urged-to-get-grip-on-nhs-winter-crisis
Not helped by 3 million immigration over the past 10 years.
You are much more likely to find an immigrant doctor or nurse treating
you as a patient than being a patient. Certainly, migrant workers from
Eastern Europe are fit, young and healthy, and rarely need the NHS.
Many tend to bring their families over here, including older parents.
Post by MM
But, hey! Just toss that headline-grabbing 3 million figure out there
and let the post-truth mud stick to the wall some more!
Sometimes it's true. Even ONS confirm there were 650,000 immigration for
the year to June 2015. You can deny as much as you like. The true
doesn't go away apart from in your head.
MM
2017-01-09 08:59:53 UTC
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Post by Fredxxx
Many tend to bring their families over here, including older parents.
Young, fit, healthy migrant workers from Eastern Europe do not. The
contingent you're thinking of is more likely to be from the Indian
subcontinent, and Britain has complete immigration control over non-EU
migrants.

MM
tim...
2017-01-09 09:14:26 UTC
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Post by MM
Post by Fredxxx
Many tend to bring their families over here, including older parents.
Young, fit, healthy migrant workers from Eastern Europe do not.
are you referring to "their families" or just the "older parents" bit?

It is clear that they do the first otherwise there would not be all these
stories of schools being overwhelmed with pupils who only speak an Eastern
European language.
Post by MM
The
contingent you're thinking of is more likely to be from the Indian
subcontinent, and Britain has complete immigration control over non-EU
migrants.
Actually it is "extended" families that make up a large percentage of Non-EU
immigration so we do let a lot of them in. The difference being that they
are usually only allowed in if the family can show that they can financially
support them (FSVO)

tim
Fredxxx
2017-01-09 16:05:26 UTC
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Post by MM
Post by Fredxxx
Many tend to bring their families over here, including older parents.
Young, fit, healthy migrant workers from Eastern Europe do not.
My personal direct experience says otherwise.

Many Eastern European women would come to the UK just to have their baby
in free and superior condition compared to those back home.
MM
2017-01-10 10:32:15 UTC
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Post by Fredxxx
Post by MM
Post by Fredxxx
Many tend to bring their families over here, including older parents.
Young, fit, healthy migrant workers from Eastern Europe do not.
My personal direct experience says otherwise.
Many Eastern European women would come to the UK just to have their baby
in free and superior condition compared to those back home.
Define "many", then give us some cites.

MM
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