Discussion:
UK rapes at knifepoint rose by 23 per cent in the past year.
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MM
2018-02-11 12:46:26 UTC
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Brexit is being used as a tool for making Britain better. A tool like
any tool is designed to make a particular job easier, cheaper,
quicker. So you take a spade rather than a teaspoon to dig your garden
or you use a fork to feed spaghetti into your mouth. (So much easier
than with the fingers, which are also tools, of course.)

No one can deny that Britain has problems, just as any country does.
But in Britain the problems always seem to get worse, whereas other
countries deal with their particular problems and ameliorate them.

Thus we no longer see headlines about a Greek economic crisis. Or a
Spanish one. Or an Italian one. But we do see increasing numbers of
headlines about the problems that beset Britain. The difference is
that Britain and the government are doing very little, if anything, to
fix the problems we're facing.

And this causes people to become first discontented, then angry.

People cannot get an immediate appointment to see their GP.

Parents cannot send their kids to the school they prefer.

Foreign languages are heard now all over Britain. It used to be only
Welsh.

The roads are not being maintained.

Ambulances regularly queue outside A&E for lack of (a) beds and (b)
sufficient staff. People die prematurely as a result.

The trains are often late. That is, if they actually turn up and not
cancelled due to "leaves on the line" or the "wrong kind of snow".
Plus, the fares are now more expensive by far than many people's
mortgages. Many trains are old and decrepit. Overcrowding is now the
norm -- worse, often, than in World War II. But instead of investing
in improvements to the current railway system, the government is
pumping tens of billions into the HS2 vanity project.

Wages are not going up in line with inflation. Workers are steadily
getting poorer. Bosses are steadily getting richer. And now the
council tax is due to be raised by up to 6% while services are being
cut back.

Having any kind of job frequently means doing it without being paid
any wage at all. The gig economy sounds good to the bosses, but less
so to workers.

And all these and many other problems cause people to become first
discontented, then angry.

But, they're told, Brexit will fix everything. We will become masters
of our own destiny. However, since most of the above problems were,
and are, not caused by the EU, our mastery of them has not exactly
resulted in any improvements so far, so what might we expect Brexit to
deliver that we ourselves have so far been unable to achieve?

On the contrary, most of the problems listed here will only get worse,
whether Brexit happens or not. So two years after Brexit, five years,
ten years, most of our problems will still be apparent, despite having
left the EU, the Single Market and the Customs Union. And there will
be additional, fresh problems caused by the very act of leaving.

As long as there is a Conservative-led government, these current
problems and future ones will NOT be addressed, but kicked into the
long grass. Already crime is rising and is one inevitable consequence
when a government ceases to govern; when anarchy starts to look like
an alternative. But if anarchy is allowed to put down roots, the
country, ungoverned as it is, will not be able to maintain law and
order.

What will Brexiters do then? There's no further place to go! They will
have cut ties to the EU and, by implication, to the rest of the world.
Once cut, you can't cut 'em again!

It's not looking good, is it, the future of life in Britain?

MM
BurfordTJustice
2018-02-11 13:15:26 UTC
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Neither will you.



"MM" <***@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: Brexit is being used as a tool for making Britain better. A tool like
: any tool is designed to make a particular job easier, cheaper,
: quicker. So you take a spade rather than a teaspoon to dig your garden
: or you use a fork to feed spaghetti into your mouth. (So much easier
: than with the fingers, which are also tools, of course.)
:
: No one can deny that Britain has problems, just as any country does.
: But in Britain the problems always seem to get worse, whereas other
: countries deal with their particular problems and ameliorate them.
:
: Thus we no longer see headlines about a Greek economic crisis. Or a
: Spanish one. Or an Italian one. But we do see increasing numbers of
: headlines about the problems that beset Britain. The difference is
: that Britain and the government are doing very little, if anything, to
: fix the problems we're facing.
:
: And this causes people to become first discontented, then angry.
:
: People cannot get an immediate appointment to see their GP.
:
: Parents cannot send their kids to the school they prefer.
:
: Foreign languages are heard now all over Britain. It used to be only
: Welsh.
:
: The roads are not being maintained.
:
: Ambulances regularly queue outside A&E for lack of (a) beds and (b)
: sufficient staff. People die prematurely as a result.
:
: The trains are often late. That is, if they actually turn up and not
: cancelled due to "leaves on the line" or the "wrong kind of snow".
: Plus, the fares are now more expensive by far than many people's
: mortgages. Many trains are old and decrepit. Overcrowding is now the
: norm -- worse, often, than in World War II. But instead of investing
: in improvements to the current railway system, the government is
: pumping tens of billions into the HS2 vanity project.
:
: Wages are not going up in line with inflation. Workers are steadily
: getting poorer. Bosses are steadily getting richer. And now the
: council tax is due to be raised by up to 6% while services are being
: cut back.
:
: Having any kind of job frequently means doing it without being paid
: any wage at all. The gig economy sounds good to the bosses, but less
: so to workers.
:
: And all these and many other problems cause people to become first
: discontented, then angry.
:
: But, they're told, Brexit will fix everything. We will become masters
: of our own destiny. However, since most of the above problems were,
: and are, not caused by the EU, our mastery of them has not exactly
: resulted in any improvements so far, so what might we expect Brexit to
: deliver that we ourselves have so far been unable to achieve?
:
: On the contrary, most of the problems listed here will only get worse,
: whether Brexit happens or not. So two years after Brexit, five years,
: ten years, most of our problems will still be apparent, despite having
: left the EU, the Single Market and the Customs Union. And there will
: be additional, fresh problems caused by the very act of leaving.
:
: As long as there is a Conservative-led government, these current
: problems and future ones will NOT be addressed, but kicked into the
: long grass. Already crime is rising and is one inevitable consequence
: when a government ceases to govern; when anarchy starts to look like
: an alternative. But if anarchy is allowed to put down roots, the
: country, ungoverned as it is, will not be able to maintain law and
: order.
:
: What will Brexiters do then? There's no further place to go! They will
: have cut ties to the EU and, by implication, to the rest of the world.
: Once cut, you can't cut 'em again!
:
: It's not looking good, is it, the future of life in Britain?
:
: MM
pamela
2018-02-11 16:01:49 UTC
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Post by MM
Brexit is being used as a tool for making Britain better. A tool
like any tool is designed to make a particular job easier,
cheaper, quicker. So you take a spade rather than a teaspoon to
dig your garden or you use a fork to feed spaghetti into your
mouth. (So much easier than with the fingers, which are also
tools, of course.)
No one can deny that Britain has problems, just as any country
does. But in Britain the problems always seem to get worse,
whereas other countries deal with their particular problems and
ameliorate them.
Thus we no longer see headlines about a Greek economic crisis. Or
a Spanish one. Or an Italian one. But we do see increasing numbers
of headlines about the problems that beset Britain. The difference
is that Britain and the government are doing very little, if
anything, to fix the problems we're facing.
And this causes people to become first discontented, then angry.
People cannot get an immediate appointment to see their GP.
Parents cannot send their kids to the school they prefer.
Foreign languages are heard now all over Britain. It used to be
only Welsh.
The roads are not being maintained.
Ambulances regularly queue outside A&E for lack of (a) beds and
(b) sufficient staff. People die prematurely as a result.
The trains are often late. That is, if they actually turn up and
not cancelled due to "leaves on the line" or the "wrong kind of
snow". Plus, the fares are now more expensive by far than many
people's mortgages. Many trains are old and decrepit. Overcrowding
is now the norm -- worse, often, than in World War II. But instead
of investing in improvements to the current railway system, the
government is pumping tens of billions into the HS2 vanity
project.
Wages are not going up in line with inflation. Workers are
steadily getting poorer. Bosses are steadily getting richer. And
now the council tax is due to be raised by up to 6% while services
are being cut back.
Having any kind of job frequently means doing it without being
paid any wage at all. The gig economy sounds good to the bosses,
but less so to workers.
And all these and many other problems cause people to become first
discontented, then angry.
But, they're told, Brexit will fix everything. We will become
masters of our own destiny. However, since most of the above
problems were, and are, not caused by the EU, our mastery of them
has not exactly resulted in any improvements so far, so what might
we expect Brexit to deliver that we ourselves have so far been
unable to achieve?
On the contrary, most of the problems listed here will only get
worse, whether Brexit happens or not. So two years after Brexit,
five years, ten years, most of our problems will still be
apparent, despite having left the EU, the Single Market and the
Customs Union. And there will be additional, fresh problems caused
by the very act of leaving.
As long as there is a Conservative-led government, these current
problems and future ones will NOT be addressed, but kicked into
the long grass. Already crime is rising and is one inevitable
consequence when a government ceases to govern; when anarchy
starts to look like an alternative. But if anarchy is allowed to
put down roots, the country, ungoverned as it is, will not be able
to maintain law and order.
What will Brexiters do then? There's no further place to go! They
will have cut ties to the EU and, by implication, to the rest of
the world. Once cut, you can't cut 'em again!
It's not looking good, is it, the future of life in Britain?
MM
That catalogue of misery is similar to what was wrong with Britain
before it joined the Common Market.

After the war, Britain slowly but surely got overtaken by its
neighbours who were able to do so despite the ravages of war they
had experienced on their lands.

Luckily, we found prosperity from a common market and tighter
integration with other countries. I would admit that in the end it
did get to be a bit too close for comfort and too federalist but
that wasn't reason enough to leave.

After Brexit we will probably go back to a slow decline. It will be
death by a thousand cuts in which the first cut doesn't hurt at all.
The Todal
2018-02-13 10:52:55 UTC
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Post by pamela
After Brexit we will probably go back to a slow decline. It will be
death by a thousand cuts in which the first cut doesn't hurt at all.
The will of the people must be done. I expect Parliament to organise an
orderly transition and a total departure from the EU. Nothing less would
be honourable.

The part that does worry me is, Brexit will now be the government's
excuse for everything that isn't working. NHS running out of money?
Sorry, it's Brexit. When everything has settled down, in about 15 years,
there will be more money to invest in the NHS. Schools, the same. Social
care, the same. Building more houses, investing in jobs, the same.

With such an ideal excuse at their disposal there's really no reason why
the government would want to obstruct or reverse Brexit.
pamela
2018-02-13 13:43:15 UTC
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Post by The Todal
Post by pamela
After Brexit we will probably go back to a slow decline. It will
be death by a thousand cuts in which the first cut doesn't hurt
at all.
The will of the people must be done. I expect Parliament to
organise an orderly transition and a total departure from the EU.
Nothing less would be honourable.
Departure from being a member of the EU need does not require us to
change every working arrangeemnt we have with the EU. Many of them
were beneficial to us and I hope we retain them.

Approximately half of the voters didn't choose Brexit (and a great deal
more of those entiled to vote but chose not to). The honourable thing
to do would be for Parliament to take their preferences into account as
best as possible.
Post by The Todal
The part that does worry me is, Brexit will now be the
government's excuse for everything that isn't working. NHS running
out of money? Sorry, it's Brexit. When everything has settled
down, in about 15 years, there will be more money to invest in the
NHS. Schools, the same. Social care, the same. Building more
houses, investing in jobs, the same.
With such an ideal excuse at their disposal there's really no
reason why the government would want to obstruct or reverse
Brexit.
I can see that after we leave, "not enough Brexit" will become the
excuse for anything which isn't going right.
tim...
2018-02-13 14:34:27 UTC
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Post by pamela
Post by The Todal
Post by pamela
After Brexit we will probably go back to a slow decline. It will
be death by a thousand cuts in which the first cut doesn't hurt
at all.
The will of the people must be done. I expect Parliament to
organise an orderly transition and a total departure from the EU.
Nothing less would be honourable.
Departure from being a member of the EU need does not require us to
change every working arrangeemnt we have with the EU. Many of them
were beneficial to us and I hope we retain them.
The problem is, it is not us going to be making that choice

Barnier is saying "you stay in everything or you stay in nothing"

That wouldn't be my preferred choice, but if presented with that choice by
the other party, it would be nothing

tim
pamela
2018-02-13 15:35:26 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by pamela
Post by The Todal
Post by pamela
After Brexit we will probably go back to a slow decline. It
will be death by a thousand cuts in which the first cut doesn't
hurt at all.
The will of the people must be done. I expect Parliament to
organise an orderly transition and a total departure from the
EU. Nothing less would be honourable.
Departure from being a member of the EU need does not require us
to change every working arrangeemnt we have with the EU. Many of
them were beneficial to us and I hope we retain them.
The problem is, it is not us going to be making that choice
Barnier is saying "you stay in everything or you stay in nothing"
That wouldn't be my preferred choice, but if presented with that
choice by the other party, it would be nothing
tim
Does Barnier really say that? I may have missed it.

I like Barnier. He looks handsome and honest. He also gives a
masterclass in how to get everything you want from a negotiation.

By contrast, from the outset the Brexit rabble looked like a bunch
of tinkers trying it on as much as they could get away with.
Ash Burton
2018-02-13 15:43:45 UTC
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Post by pamela
Post by tim...
Post by pamela
Post by The Todal
Post by pamela
After Brexit we will probably go back to a slow decline. It
will be death by a thousand cuts in which the first cut doesn't
hurt at all.
The will of the people must be done. I expect Parliament to
organise an orderly transition and a total departure from the
EU. Nothing less would be honourable.
Departure from being a member of the EU need does not require us
to change every working arrangeemnt we have with the EU. Many of
them were beneficial to us and I hope we retain them.
The problem is, it is not us going to be making that choice
Barnier is saying "you stay in everything or you stay in nothing"
That wouldn't be my preferred choice, but if presented with that
choice by the other party, it would be nothing
tim
Does Barnier really say that? I may have missed it.
I like Barnier. He looks handsome and honest. He also gives a
masterclass in how to get everything you want from a negotiation.
By contrast, from the outset the Brexit rabble looked like a bunch
of tinkers trying it on as much as they could get away with.
Barnier is just sabre rattling, it's his start position in a
negotiation, nothing more.

We shouldn't take it that he won't move fom it when it suits.
tim...
2018-02-13 17:39:28 UTC
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Post by pamela
Post by tim...
Post by pamela
Post by The Todal
Post by pamela
After Brexit we will probably go back to a slow decline. It
will be death by a thousand cuts in which the first cut doesn't
hurt at all.
The will of the people must be done. I expect Parliament to
organise an orderly transition and a total departure from the
EU. Nothing less would be honourable.
Departure from being a member of the EU need does not require us
to change every working arrangeemnt we have with the EU. Many of
them were beneficial to us and I hope we retain them.
The problem is, it is not us going to be making that choice
Barnier is saying "you stay in everything or you stay in nothing"
That wouldn't be my preferred choice, but if presented with that
choice by the other party, it would be nothing
tim
Does Barnier really say that? I may have missed it.
I like Barnier. He looks handsome and honest. He also gives a
masterclass in how to get everything you want from a negotiation.
By contrast, from the outset the Brexit rabble looked like a bunch
of tinkers trying it on as much as they could get away with.
Barnier is just sabre rattling, it's his start position in a negotiation,
nothing more.
but he has put so many things on his wants list that are completely
unacceptable, he is going to have to make an awful lot of compromises for us
not to just say **** you and walk away.

there are mutterings in EU capitals that he has exceeded his authority by
adding stuff that they haven't authorised, that "no other party in a
negotiation would reasonably agree to" and that harms us (that's them from
our pov) as much as it harms the UK.

As one of the newspapers said, the Spanish tourist economy would be crippled
overnight if all flights to/from the UK were grounded. They would never
agree to such a possibility just to make, what seems little more than, an
entry in a willy waving contest.

tim
The Natural Philosopher
2018-02-13 18:03:00 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by Ash Burton
Post by tim...
Post by pamela
Post by The Todal
After Brexit we will probably go back to a slow decline.  It
will be death by a thousand cuts in which the first cut doesn't
hurt at all.
The will of the people must be done. I expect Parliament to
organise an orderly transition and a total departure from the
EU. Nothing less would be honourable.
Departure from being a member of the EU need does not require us
to change every working arrangeemnt we have with the EU.  Many of
them were beneficial to us and I hope we retain them.
The problem is, it is not us going to be making that choice
Barnier is saying "you stay in everything or you stay in nothing"
That wouldn't be my preferred choice, but if presented with that
choice by the other party, it would be nothing
tim
Does Barnier really say that?  I may have missed it.
I like Barnier.  He looks handsome and honest.  He also gives a
masterclass in how to get everything you want from a negotiation.
By contrast, from the outset the Brexit rabble looked like a bunch
of tinkers trying it on as much as they could get away with.
Barnier is just sabre rattling, it's his start position in a
negotiation, nothing more.
but he has put so many things on his wants list that are completely
unacceptable, he is going to have to make an awful lot of compromises
for us not to just say **** you and walk away.
Of course. That is the only way that the EU casn save face and then
blame the UK for the shit they will then find themselves in.
Post by tim...
there are mutterings in EU capitals that he has exceeded his authority
by adding stuff that they haven't authorised, that "no other party in a
negotiation would reasonably agree to" and that harms us (that's them
from our pov) as much as it harms the UK.
As one of the newspapers said, the Spanish tourist economy would be
crippled overnight if all flights to/from the UK were grounded.  They
would never agree to such a possibility just to make, what seems little
more than, an entry in a willy waving contest.
I have said it many times. The EU is in real danger of disintegration.

The ONLY way it can win is if it intimidates the UK into capitulation,
aided by its third columnn of traitors in the UK

If it cannnot do that, the next best thing is to have the UK walk away,
so it can then blame the UK for everything.

What it dare not do, is do a good deal, because if it does everyone else
will want one and leave the EU.

The EU is fighting for its life.

Like a cornered rat.
Post by tim...
tim
--
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx
Dave Plowman (News)
2018-02-13 19:04:45 UTC
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Post by The Natural Philosopher
The ONLY way it can win is if it intimidates the UK into capitulation,
aided by its third columnn of traitors in the UK
How are your plans to emigrate to SA going?
--
*Arkansas State Motto: Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Laugh.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
dennis@home
2018-02-13 20:27:56 UTC
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Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by The Natural Philosopher
The ONLY way it can win is if it intimidates the UK into capitulation,
aided by its third columnn of traitors in the UK
How are your plans to emigrate to SA going?
He won't go.

I doubt if any of the brexiteers here will last long enough to see the
end of the EU.
Ophelia
2018-02-13 20:48:28 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by pamela
Post by tim...
Post by pamela
Post by The Todal
Post by pamela
After Brexit we will probably go back to a slow decline. It
will be death by a thousand cuts in which the first cut doesn't
hurt at all.
The will of the people must be done. I expect Parliament to
organise an orderly transition and a total departure from the
EU. Nothing less would be honourable.
Departure from being a member of the EU need does not require us
to change every working arrangeemnt we have with the EU. Many of
them were beneficial to us and I hope we retain them.
The problem is, it is not us going to be making that choice
Barnier is saying "you stay in everything or you stay in nothing"
That wouldn't be my preferred choice, but if presented with that
choice by the other party, it would be nothing
tim
Does Barnier really say that? I may have missed it.
I like Barnier. He looks handsome and honest. He also gives a
masterclass in how to get everything you want from a negotiation.
By contrast, from the outset the Brexit rabble looked like a bunch
of tinkers trying it on as much as they could get away with.
Barnier is just sabre rattling, it's his start position in a negotiation,
nothing more.
but he has put so many things on his wants list that are completely
unacceptable, he is going to have to make an awful lot of compromises for
us not to just say **** you and walk away.
Of course. That is the only way that the EU casn save face and then
blame the UK for the shit they will then find themselves in.
Post by tim...
there are mutterings in EU capitals that he has exceeded his authority by
adding stuff that they haven't authorised, that "no other party in a
negotiation would reasonably agree to" and that harms us (that's them from
our pov) as much as it harms the UK.
As one of the newspapers said, the Spanish tourist economy would be
crippled overnight if all flights to/from the UK were grounded. They
would never agree to such a possibility just to make, what seems little
more than, an entry in a willy waving contest.
I have said it many times. The EU is in real danger of disintegration.

The ONLY way it can win is if it intimidates the UK into capitulation,
aided by its third columnn of traitors in the UK

If it cannnot do that, the next best thing is to have the UK walk away,
so it can then blame the UK for everything.

What it dare not do, is do a good deal, because if it does everyone else
will want one and leave the EU.

The EU is fighting for its life.

Like a cornered rat.

==

Excellent post! I agree!!
Ian Jackson
2018-02-13 15:53:42 UTC
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Post by pamela
By contrast, from the outset the Brexit rabble looked like a bunch
of tinkers trying it on as much as they could get away with.
What have tinkers ever done to you that you need to compare them with
the Brexit rabble?
--
Ian
tim...
2018-02-13 17:30:44 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by pamela
Post by tim...
Post by pamela
Post by The Todal
Post by pamela
After Brexit we will probably go back to a slow decline. It
will be death by a thousand cuts in which the first cut doesn't
hurt at all.
The will of the people must be done. I expect Parliament to
organise an orderly transition and a total departure from the
EU. Nothing less would be honourable.
Departure from being a member of the EU need does not require us
to change every working arrangeemnt we have with the EU. Many of
them were beneficial to us and I hope we retain them.
The problem is, it is not us going to be making that choice
Barnier is saying "you stay in everything or you stay in nothing"
That wouldn't be my preferred choice, but if presented with that
choice by the other party, it would be nothing
tim
Does Barnier really say that? I may have missed it.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-talks-eu-michel-barnier-david-davis-negotiations-trade-deal-theresa-may-a8202406.html

"he has already said what the choices are. Either the UK must accept all the
EU's laws, or it can have nothing"
harry
2018-02-13 17:46:09 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by pamela
Post by tim...
Post by pamela
Post by The Todal
Post by pamela
After Brexit we will probably go back to a slow decline. It
will be death by a thousand cuts in which the first cut doesn't
hurt at all.
The will of the people must be done. I expect Parliament to
organise an orderly transition and a total departure from the
EU. Nothing less would be honourable.
Departure from being a member of the EU need does not require us
to change every working arrangeemnt we have with the EU. Many of
them were beneficial to us and I hope we retain them.
The problem is, it is not us going to be making that choice
Barnier is saying "you stay in everything or you stay in nothing"
That wouldn't be my preferred choice, but if presented with that
choice by the other party, it would be nothing
tim
Does Barnier really say that? I may have missed it.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-talks-eu-michel-barnier-david-davis-negotiations-trade-deal-theresa-may-a8202406.html
"he has already said what the choices are. Either the UK must accept all the
EU's laws, or it can have nothing"
We need to present them with a bill for liberating them from tyranny on at least four ocassions.
pamela
2018-02-13 19:29:25 UTC
Reply
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Post by tim...
Post by pamela
Post by tim...
Post by pamela
Post by The Todal
Post by pamela
After Brexit we will probably go back to a slow decline. It
will be death by a thousand cuts in which the first cut
doesn't hurt at all.
The will of the people must be done. I expect Parliament to
organise an orderly transition and a total departure from the
EU. Nothing less would be honourable.
Departure from being a member of the EU need does not require
us to change every working arrangeemnt we have with the EU.
Many of them were beneficial to us and I hope we retain them.
The problem is, it is not us going to be making that choice
Barnier is saying "you stay in everything or you stay in
nothing"
That wouldn't be my preferred choice, but if presented with that
choice by the other party, it would be nothing
tim
Does Barnier really say that? I may have missed it.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-talks-eu-michel-
barnier-
david-davis-negotiations-trade-deal-theresa-may-a8202406.html
"he has already said what the choices are. Either the UK must
accept all the EU's laws, or it can have nothing"
I didn't realise you your referring to the EU's precondition for the
transition period.

It sounded as if you were referring to the agreement being
negotiated about our relationship with the EU after we are clear of
the transition period and Brexit is complete.

I didn't think everything/nothing had been raised in those talks
except the old position paper published by the EU.
Ash Burton
2018-02-15 11:15:35 UTC
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Post by pamela
Post by tim...
Post by pamela
Post by The Todal
Post by pamela
After Brexit we will probably go back to a slow decline. It
will be death by a thousand cuts in which the first cut doesn't
hurt at all.
The will of the people must be done. I expect Parliament to
organise an orderly transition and a total departure from the
EU. Nothing less would be honourable.
Departure from being a member of the EU need does not require us
to change every working arrangeemnt we have with the EU. Many of
them were beneficial to us and I hope we retain them.
The problem is, it is not us going to be making that choice
Barnier is saying "you stay in everything or you stay in nothing"
That wouldn't be my preferred choice, but if presented with that
choice by the other party, it would be nothing
tim
Does Barnier really say that? I may have missed it.
I like Barnier. He looks handsome and honest. He also gives a
masterclass in how to get everything you want from a negotiation.
By contrast, from the outset the Brexit rabble looked like a bunch
of tinkers trying it on as much as they could get away with.
Barmier and the EU have already backtracked on this as i said they
would. Didn't take very long either.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-43062112

harry
2018-02-13 09:13:31 UTC
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Post by MM
Brexit is being used as a tool for making Britain better. A tool like
any tool is designed to make a particular job easier, cheaper,
quicker. So you take a spade rather than a teaspoon to dig your garden
or you use a fork to feed spaghetti into your mouth. (So much easier
than with the fingers, which are also tools, of course.)
No one can deny that Britain has problems, just as any country does.
But in Britain the problems always seem to get worse, whereas other
countries deal with their particular problems and ameliorate them.
Thus we no longer see headlines about a Greek economic crisis. Or a
Spanish one. Or an Italian one. But we do see increasing numbers of
headlines about the problems that beset Britain. The difference is
that Britain and the government are doing very little, if anything, to
fix the problems we're facing.
And this causes people to become first discontented, then angry.
People cannot get an immediate appointment to see their GP.
Parents cannot send their kids to the school they prefer.
Foreign languages are heard now all over Britain. It used to be only
Welsh.
The roads are not being maintained.
Ambulances regularly queue outside A&E for lack of (a) beds and (b)
sufficient staff. People die prematurely as a result.
The trains are often late. That is, if they actually turn up and not
cancelled due to "leaves on the line" or the "wrong kind of snow".
Plus, the fares are now more expensive by far than many people's
mortgages. Many trains are old and decrepit. Overcrowding is now the
norm -- worse, often, than in World War II. But instead of investing
in improvements to the current railway system, the government is
pumping tens of billions into the HS2 vanity project.
Wages are not going up in line with inflation. Workers are steadily
getting poorer. Bosses are steadily getting richer. And now the
council tax is due to be raised by up to 6% while services are being
cut back.
Having any kind of job frequently means doing it without being paid
any wage at all. The gig economy sounds good to the bosses, but less
so to workers.
And all these and many other problems cause people to become first
discontented, then angry.
But, they're told, Brexit will fix everything. We will become masters
of our own destiny. However, since most of the above problems were,
and are, not caused by the EU, our mastery of them has not exactly
resulted in any improvements so far, so what might we expect Brexit to
deliver that we ourselves have so far been unable to achieve?
On the contrary, most of the problems listed here will only get worse,
whether Brexit happens or not. So two years after Brexit, five years,
ten years, most of our problems will still be apparent, despite having
left the EU, the Single Market and the Customs Union. And there will
be additional, fresh problems caused by the very act of leaving.
As long as there is a Conservative-led government, these current
problems and future ones will NOT be addressed, but kicked into the
long grass. Already crime is rising and is one inevitable consequence
when a government ceases to govern; when anarchy starts to look like
an alternative. But if anarchy is allowed to put down roots, the
country, ungoverned as it is, will not be able to maintain law and
order.
What will Brexiters do then? There's no further place to go! They will
have cut ties to the EU and, by implication, to the rest of the world.
Once cut, you can't cut 'em again!
It's not looking good, is it, the future of life in Britain?
MM
Our problem got worse when we joined the ECM.As it evolved, they got worse still.

Time to leave the Titanic.
Ophelia
2018-02-13 11:41:33 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by MM
Brexit is being used as a tool for making Britain better. A tool like
any tool is designed to make a particular job easier, cheaper,
quicker. So you take a spade rather than a teaspoon to dig your garden
or you use a fork to feed spaghetti into your mouth. (So much easier
than with the fingers, which are also tools, of course.)
No one can deny that Britain has problems, just as any country does.
But in Britain the problems always seem to get worse, whereas other
countries deal with their particular problems and ameliorate them.
Thus we no longer see headlines about a Greek economic crisis. Or a
Spanish one. Or an Italian one. But we do see increasing numbers of
headlines about the problems that beset Britain. The difference is
that Britain and the government are doing very little, if anything, to
fix the problems we're facing.
And this causes people to become first discontented, then angry.
People cannot get an immediate appointment to see their GP.
Parents cannot send their kids to the school they prefer.
Foreign languages are heard now all over Britain. It used to be only
Welsh.
The roads are not being maintained.
Ambulances regularly queue outside A&E for lack of (a) beds and (b)
sufficient staff. People die prematurely as a result.
The trains are often late. That is, if they actually turn up and not
cancelled due to "leaves on the line" or the "wrong kind of snow".
Plus, the fares are now more expensive by far than many people's
mortgages. Many trains are old and decrepit. Overcrowding is now the
norm -- worse, often, than in World War II. But instead of investing
in improvements to the current railway system, the government is
pumping tens of billions into the HS2 vanity project.
Wages are not going up in line with inflation. Workers are steadily
getting poorer. Bosses are steadily getting richer. And now the
council tax is due to be raised by up to 6% while services are being
cut back.
Having any kind of job frequently means doing it without being paid
any wage at all. The gig economy sounds good to the bosses, but less
so to workers.
And all these and many other problems cause people to become first
discontented, then angry.
But, they're told, Brexit will fix everything. We will become masters
of our own destiny. However, since most of the above problems were,
and are, not caused by the EU, our mastery of them has not exactly
resulted in any improvements so far, so what might we expect Brexit to
deliver that we ourselves have so far been unable to achieve?
On the contrary, most of the problems listed here will only get worse,
whether Brexit happens or not. So two years after Brexit, five years,
ten years, most of our problems will still be apparent, despite having
left the EU, the Single Market and the Customs Union. And there will
be additional, fresh problems caused by the very act of leaving.
As long as there is a Conservative-led government, these current
problems and future ones will NOT be addressed, but kicked into the
long grass. Already crime is rising and is one inevitable consequence
when a government ceases to govern; when anarchy starts to look like
an alternative. But if anarchy is allowed to put down roots, the
country, ungoverned as it is, will not be able to maintain law and
order.
What will Brexiters do then? There's no further place to go! They will
have cut ties to the EU and, by implication, to the rest of the world.
Once cut, you can't cut 'em again!
It's not looking good, is it, the future of life in Britain?
MM
Our problem got worse when we joined the ECM.As it evolved, they got worse
still.

Time to leave the Titanic.
==

If we didn't have to put up with freedom on movement, we wouldn't have so
much pressure on hospitals etc.
Nightjar
2018-02-13 11:52:45 UTC
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On 13-Feb-18 11:41 AM, Ophelia wrote:
...
Post by Ophelia
If we didn't have to put up with freedom on movement, we wouldn't have
so much pressure on hospitals etc.
One of the Brexit myths. One of the main pressures on the NHS is an
ageing native population. EU migrants tend to be young and fit and
generally require much less medical care. They also contribute to the
economy and a couple of studies have shown that they contribute slightly
more per person to the NHS than a native Briton.
--
--

Colin Bignell
The Todal
2018-02-13 12:01:49 UTC
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Post by Nightjar
...
Post by Ophelia
If we didn't have to put up with freedom on movement, we wouldn't have
so much pressure on hospitals etc.
One of the Brexit myths. One of the main pressures on the NHS is an
ageing native population. EU migrants tend to be young and fit and
generally require much less medical care. They also contribute to the
economy and a couple of studies have shown that they contribute slightly
more per person to the NHS than a native Briton.
The migrants have usually been in employment and have paid in taxes to
support our NHS.

The problem is that our government has failed to invest enough in the
NHS to keep up with demand. It will boast that it has increased
investment year by year, but it simply hasn't kept up with the steadily
increasing demand on the NHS, mainly from the elderly and those with
diseases linked to obesity and lifestyle.

Brexit has already led to a big slump in nurses joining the NHS. So it
has greatly aggravated our existing NHS crisis.

So let's hope that Boris and Gove have a solution, and not just empty
rhetoric and bad jokes.

https://www.nmc.org.uk/news/news-and-updates/increasing-number-nurses-midwives-leaving-profession-major-challenges/

2 November 2017

In July, we published data which showed that for the first time there
were more nurses and midwives leaving the register than joining it.
Today’s figures show that trend is continuing. Over the last 12 months
the number of UK graduates leaving the profession has increased by nine
percent, as shown in the table below.

The number of nurses and midwives from Europe leaving the register has
also increased by 67 percent, while the number joining the register from
the EU has dropped dramatically by 89 percent.
harry
2018-02-13 17:44:31 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by The Todal
Post by Nightjar
...
Post by Ophelia
If we didn't have to put up with freedom on movement, we wouldn't have
so much pressure on hospitals etc.
One of the Brexit myths. One of the main pressures on the NHS is an
ageing native population. EU migrants tend to be young and fit and
generally require much less medical care. They also contribute to the
economy and a couple of studies have shown that they contribute slightly
more per person to the NHS than a native Briton.
The migrants have usually been in employment and have paid in taxes to
support our NHS.
Drivel.
Some are in the black economy. Eg car washing.
Many don't pay tax, they earn too little.
Any money the earn is sent home and is lost to the UK economy.
They are a complete waste of space.
Nightjar
2018-02-13 18:29:05 UTC
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Raw Message
On 13-Feb-18 5:44 PM, harry wrote:
...
Post by harry
Drivel.
Some are in the black economy. Eg car washing.
Many don't pay tax, they earn too little.
Any money the earn is sent home and is lost to the UK economy.
They are a complete waste of space.
Pleased to see that you now start your posts with a warning about their
content.
--
--

Colin Bignell
The Todal
2018-02-13 23:59:00 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by harry
Post by The Todal
Post by Nightjar
...
Post by Ophelia
If we didn't have to put up with freedom on movement, we wouldn't have
so much pressure on hospitals etc.
One of the Brexit myths. One of the main pressures on the NHS is an
ageing native population. EU migrants tend to be young and fit and
generally require much less medical care. They also contribute to the
economy and a couple of studies have shown that they contribute slightly
more per person to the NHS than a native Briton.
The migrants have usually been in employment and have paid in taxes to
support our NHS.
Drivel.
Some are in the black economy. Eg car washing.
Many don't pay tax, they earn too little.
Any money the earn is sent home and is lost to the UK economy.
They are a complete waste of space.
So what do you do, as your contribution to society? Somehow I doubt if
you are a doctor, nurse, shopkeeper or engineer.
harry
2018-02-13 17:41:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by harry
Post by MM
Brexit is being used as a tool for making Britain better. A tool like
any tool is designed to make a particular job easier, cheaper,
quicker. So you take a spade rather than a teaspoon to dig your garden
or you use a fork to feed spaghetti into your mouth. (So much easier
than with the fingers, which are also tools, of course.)
No one can deny that Britain has problems, just as any country does.
But in Britain the problems always seem to get worse, whereas other
countries deal with their particular problems and ameliorate them.
Thus we no longer see headlines about a Greek economic crisis. Or a
Spanish one. Or an Italian one. But we do see increasing numbers of
headlines about the problems that beset Britain. The difference is
that Britain and the government are doing very little, if anything, to
fix the problems we're facing.
And this causes people to become first discontented, then angry.
People cannot get an immediate appointment to see their GP.
Parents cannot send their kids to the school they prefer.
Foreign languages are heard now all over Britain. It used to be only
Welsh.
The roads are not being maintained.
Ambulances regularly queue outside A&E for lack of (a) beds and (b)
sufficient staff. People die prematurely as a result.
The trains are often late. That is, if they actually turn up and not
cancelled due to "leaves on the line" or the "wrong kind of snow".
Plus, the fares are now more expensive by far than many people's
mortgages. Many trains are old and decrepit. Overcrowding is now the
norm -- worse, often, than in World War II. But instead of investing
in improvements to the current railway system, the government is
pumping tens of billions into the HS2 vanity project.
Wages are not going up in line with inflation. Workers are steadily
getting poorer. Bosses are steadily getting richer. And now the
council tax is due to be raised by up to 6% while services are being
cut back.
Having any kind of job frequently means doing it without being paid
any wage at all. The gig economy sounds good to the bosses, but less
so to workers.
And all these and many other problems cause people to become first
discontented, then angry.
But, they're told, Brexit will fix everything. We will become masters
of our own destiny. However, since most of the above problems were,
and are, not caused by the EU, our mastery of them has not exactly
resulted in any improvements so far, so what might we expect Brexit to
deliver that we ourselves have so far been unable to achieve?
On the contrary, most of the problems listed here will only get worse,
whether Brexit happens or not. So two years after Brexit, five years,
ten years, most of our problems will still be apparent, despite having
left the EU, the Single Market and the Customs Union. And there will
be additional, fresh problems caused by the very act of leaving.
As long as there is a Conservative-led government, these current
problems and future ones will NOT be addressed, but kicked into the
long grass. Already crime is rising and is one inevitable consequence
when a government ceases to govern; when anarchy starts to look like
an alternative. But if anarchy is allowed to put down roots, the
country, ungoverned as it is, will not be able to maintain law and
order.
What will Brexiters do then? There's no further place to go! They will
have cut ties to the EU and, by implication, to the rest of the world.
Once cut, you can't cut 'em again!
It's not looking good, is it, the future of life in Britain?
MM
Our problem got worse when we joined the ECM.As it evolved, they got worse still.
Time to leave the Titanic.
==
If we didn't have to put up with freedom on movement, we wouldn't have so
much pressure on hospitals etc.
Only the rich want migrants.
It depresses wages.
It means our own youth do not get training.
It elevates the price of housing/property.
All of these suit the rich.

It puts more load on all our infra-structure.
It increases crime.
And poaching medical staff from third world countries is immoral.
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