Discussion:
Is States of Jersey 50p legal tender in UK?
(too old to reply)
Mike Mitchell
2004-09-03 15:44:55 UTC
Permalink
I've been passed one in my change. Can I legally offer it in payment?

MM
Jack
2004-09-03 16:19:56 UTC
Permalink
probably, but if not im sure the bank could swap it for you.. even if you
cant legally offer it in payment, some places would probably take it anyway
Post by Mike Mitchell
I've been passed one in my change. Can I legally offer it in payment?
MM
Alan G
2004-09-03 16:26:06 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:44:55 +0100, Mike Mitchell
Post by Mike Mitchell
I've been passed one in my change. Can I legally offer it in payment?
MM
Yes but they don't have to accept it.
Stupid really cos it's worth exactly the same as any other 50 pence
piece including the Welsh and Scottish versions
Mike Mitchell
2004-09-03 23:20:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan G
On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:44:55 +0100, Mike Mitchell
Post by Mike Mitchell
I've been passed one in my change. Can I legally offer it in payment?
MM
Yes but they don't have to accept it.
If it's legal tender, why do they not have to accept it?

MM
Mike
2004-09-04 00:12:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Mitchell
Post by Alan G
On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:44:55 +0100, Mike Mitchell
Post by Mike Mitchell
I've been passed one in my change. Can I legally offer it in payment?
MM
Yes but they don't have to accept it.
If it's legal tender, why do they not have to accept it?
"Legal Tender" isn't the only form of payment which can be legally
offer. A cheque, for example, isn't "legal tender" but it's quite legal
to offer one in payment: it's also legal for the offeree to refuse to
accept it.
--
Mike
Mike Mitchell
2004-09-04 08:46:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike
Post by Mike Mitchell
Post by Alan G
On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:44:55 +0100, Mike Mitchell
Post by Mike Mitchell
I've been passed one in my change. Can I legally offer it in payment?
MM
Yes but they don't have to accept it.
If it's legal tender, why do they not have to accept it?
"Legal Tender" isn't the only form of payment which can be legally
offer. A cheque, for example, isn't "legal tender" but it's quite legal
to offer one in payment: it's also legal for the offeree to refuse to
accept it.
Makes no sense! The law's an ass!

MM
bigbrian
2004-09-04 09:34:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike
Post by Mike Mitchell
Post by Alan G
On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:44:55 +0100, Mike Mitchell
Post by Mike Mitchell
I've been passed one in my change. Can I legally offer it in payment?
MM
Yes but they don't have to accept it.
If it's legal tender, why do they not have to accept it?
"Legal Tender" isn't the only form of payment which can be legally
offer.
That wasn't the question, though, which was to do with what has to be
accepted, not what may be offered . Its legal to offer pebbles in
settlement of the debt, but they're not legal tender and don't have to
be accepted.

Legal tender ought not to be refused by a creditor in settlement of a
debt. If, therefore, what you're offering is legal tender, then a
statement to the effect that the creditor doesn't have to accept it is
wrong

(note, when purchasing something for cash in a shop, the situation
doesn't apply, since there's no contractual relationship until after
the transaction has been completed, which it won't be until the cash
has been accepted anyway)

Brian
Alan G
2004-09-04 15:57:09 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 00:20:36 +0100, Mike Mitchell
Post by Mike Mitchell
Post by Alan G
On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:44:55 +0100, Mike Mitchell
Post by Mike Mitchell
I've been passed one in my change. Can I legally offer it in payment?
MM
Yes but they don't have to accept it.
If it's legal tender, why do they not have to accept it?
Cos there is nothing anywhere says they have to accept it.
Plenty of places won't take twenty or fifty pound notes.
Tom Moore
2004-09-05 22:23:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan G
Post by Mike Mitchell
I've been passed one in my change.
Can I legally offer it in payment?
Yes but they don't have to accept it.
Of course they do not have to accept it: they do not have to do
business with you in the first place.

Many refuse because non English UK sterling linked cash is difficult to
use as change. So it has to be isolated and paid into the trader's
bank account,
Post by Alan G
Stupid really cos it's worth exactly the same as any other
50 pence piece including the Welsh and Scottish versions
People do not understand the term legal tender. Most think it refers
to notes & coins that either pass or fail. You cannot require your
creditors to accept payment in 1p coins, unless the debts are small.
--
Tom Moore

http://www.tom-moore.com
Mike
2004-09-05 23:46:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Moore
Post by Alan G
Post by Mike Mitchell
I've been passed one in my change.
Can I legally offer it in payment?
Yes but they don't have to accept it.
Of course they do not have to accept it: they do not have to do
business with you in the first place.
Many refuse because non English UK sterling linked cash is difficult to
use as change. So it has to be isolated and paid into the trader's
bank account,
That's not always true. In Gateshead & Newcastle upon Tyne I've been
given (and accepted) Scottish notes in change.
Post by Tom Moore
Post by Alan G
Stupid really cos it's worth exactly the same as any other
50 pence piece including the Welsh and Scottish versions
People do not understand the term legal tender. Most think it refers
to notes & coins that either pass or fail. You cannot require your
creditors to accept payment in 1p coins, unless the debts are small.
10p or less IIRC.
--
Mike
Tom Moore
2004-09-06 10:57:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike
That's not always true.
No it is not always true, but there is an entirely needless problem, as
these non English sterling linked bank notes (and coins) are backed by
the Bank of England. OTOH, the Bank of England's own notes and coins,
are made in Wales.
Post by Mike
In Gateshead & Newcastle upon Tyne
I was talking about England. You know the nation that lies between
Watford, in the North, and Orpington in the south?
Post by Mike
10p or less IIRC.
Probably, Every year, at the Budget, the Chancellor proposes a
Statutory Instrument that defines Legal Tender. Since it is a money
bill, the Lords and Monarch have no say, and it is quickly extant law,
usually at 6.00 pm that day.
--
Tom Moore

http://www.tom-moore.com
Alan G
2004-09-06 11:06:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike
Post by Tom Moore
Post by Alan G
Post by Mike Mitchell
I've been passed one in my change.
Can I legally offer it in payment?
Yes but they don't have to accept it.
Of course they do not have to accept it: they do not have to do
business with you in the first place.
Many refuse because non English UK sterling linked cash is difficult to
use as change. So it has to be isolated and paid into the trader's
bank account,
That's not always true. In Gateshead & Newcastle upon Tyne I've been
given (and accepted) Scottish notes in change.
There is usually no problem north of Leeds/Bradford except from
southern incomers. Had one take over our local corner shop and refused
to take scottish notes. He went out of business within a year.
Post by Mike
Post by Tom Moore
Post by Alan G
Stupid really cos it's worth exactly the same as any other
50 pence piece including the Welsh and Scottish versions
People do not understand the term legal tender. Most think it refers
to notes & coins that either pass or fail. You cannot require your
creditors to accept payment in 1p coins, unless the debts are small.
10p or less IIRC.
Tom Moore
2004-09-04 20:51:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Mitchell
I've been passed one in my change.
Can I legally offer it in payment?
Yes, unless you are a bank. Banks must offer legal tender.

There is more to legal tender than the particular notes and coins
offered, and the whole business is badly understood. All £20 notes
were withdrawn from legal tender last year, but people still trade with
them, without problems.

The only legal tender in Scotland is £1 and £2 coins. Doesn't worry
them. They're more than happy to bring their promisory notes to
England, and shout the odds, if anyone gives them a second glance, even
if the issuing bank is called BCCI.

Your bankers will credit your account with the face value of the Jersey
coin. Elsewhere, CI currency is generally not accepted. The problem
is that they are not easy to use as change for other customers.

This post contains absolutely no rhyming slang.
--
Tom Moore

http://www.tom-moore.com
IanAl
2004-09-04 20:49:41 UTC
Permalink
On 4 Sep 2004 13:51:57 -0700, "Tom Moore"
Post by Tom Moore
Post by Mike Mitchell
I've been passed one in my change.
Can I legally offer it in payment?
Yes, unless you are a bank. Banks must offer legal tender.
There is more to legal tender than the particular notes and coins
offered, and the whole business is badly understood. All £20 notes
were withdrawn from legal tender last year, but people still trade with
them, without problems.
Howcome banks dish out £20 notes then?

And they *insist* on giving them to you through ATMs.
Tom Moore
2004-09-05 07:23:48 UTC
Permalink
How come banks dish out £20 notes then?
And they insist on giving them to you through ATMs.
No idea. Perhaps they do not want anyone to know £20 notes were
withdrawn from the legal tender list, so that only branches of Her
Britannic Majesty's Government will have that weapon to combat fraud,
of which the £20 was the most common.

Certainly, Banks should not be dispensing them in England & Wales, but
as you say, they do.

Some people think Her Britannic Majesty's Government exists to serve
the people. This is wrong. Her Britannic Majesty's Government exists
to serve Her Britannic Majesty's Government.

There is not a great deal of reference material on the subject. Just a
few hints, for example, "issuing non-legal tender coins is an
interesting development from the Royal Mint."

http://www.24carat.co.uk/2004pound.html


Long time ago, I worked on busses, and the cash office had this "job's
worthy" thing about legal tender. I used to nip over the road to the
Midland Bank (HSBC) to exchange the Scots notes I'd taken for coins,
because tourists, even if they're from Scotland or London, only ever
pay with bank notes.

The Scots people were annoying that if you paused when presented with a
note you had never seen before, they heckled you with claims of legal
tender. I was more concerned that they had not given me too high a
value note, and when I got back to depot, would be accused of theft.

We were supposed to accept only legal tender. Scottish school summer
holidays start and end (or did) 2 weeks earlier than those in England.
What the hell were we supposed to do, when on holiday maker routes half
our passengers were fresh from Scotland? Tell 'em to walk?

Gibraltar has her own parallel currency, like the Channel Islands,
Northern Ireland and Scotland. NI has sterling bank notes issued by
Bank of Ireland (Belfast).
--
Tom Moore

http://www.tom-moore.com
Mike Mitchell
2004-09-05 08:46:59 UTC
Permalink
On 5 Sep 2004 00:23:48 -0700, "Tom Moore"
Post by Tom Moore
How come banks dish out £20 notes then?
And they insist on giving them to you through ATMs.
No idea. Perhaps they do not want anyone to know £20 notes were
withdrawn from the legal tender list, so that only branches of Her
Britannic Majesty's Government will have that weapon to combat fraud,
of which the £20 was the most common.
Certainly, Banks should not be dispensing them in England & Wales, but
as you say, they do.
Some people think Her Britannic Majesty's Government exists to serve
the people. This is wrong. Her Britannic Majesty's Government exists
to serve Her Britannic Majesty's Government.
There is not a great deal of reference material on the subject. Just a
few hints, for example, "issuing non-legal tender coins is an
interesting development from the Royal Mint."
http://www.24carat.co.uk/2004pound.html
Long time ago, I worked on busses, and the cash office had this "job's
worthy" thing about legal tender. I used to nip over the road to the
Midland Bank (HSBC) to exchange the Scots notes I'd taken for coins,
because tourists, even if they're from Scotland or London, only ever
pay with bank notes.
The Scots people were annoying that if you paused when presented with a
note you had never seen before, they heckled you with claims of legal
tender. I was more concerned that they had not given me too high a
value note, and when I got back to depot, would be accused of theft.
We were supposed to accept only legal tender. Scottish school summer
holidays start and end (or did) 2 weeks earlier than those in England.
What the hell were we supposed to do, when on holiday maker routes half
our passengers were fresh from Scotland? Tell 'em to walk?
Gibraltar has her own parallel currency, like the Channel Islands,
Northern Ireland and Scotland. NI has sterling bank notes issued by
Bank of Ireland (Belfast).
Oh for the Euro! Let it come soon to these shores!

MM
Tom Moore
2004-09-05 21:58:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Mitchell
Oh for the Euro! Let it come soon to these shores!
There are serious moves to make that legal tender, while much of our
domestic UK bank notes will remain outside the definition of legal
tender,

Along with adopting the Euro, I also believe we should legislate to
ensure monkeys always grind the organ, and tails must wag dogs.
--
Tom Moore

http://www.tom-moore.com
Jim Watt
2004-09-06 22:09:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Moore
Gibraltar has her own parallel currency, like the Channel Islands,
Northern Ireland and Scotland. NI has sterling bank notes issued by
Bank of Ireland (Belfast).
No, the Gibraltar currency is sterling with locally issued notes
backed by the Bank of England.

--
Jim Watt
www.gibnet.com
Shockwave
2004-10-04 14:59:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Moore
No idea. Perhaps they do not want anyone to know £20 notes were
withdrawn from the legal tender list, so that only branches of Her
Britannic Majesty's Government will have that weapon to combat fraud,
of which the £20 was the most common.
it because the twenty is widely copied.

have u seen signs in shops that say "sorry we don't accept £20/£50
notes"? the act of withdrawing the twenty and fifty from the list of
legal tender makes such notices completely legal.

if the notes were still on the list then traders would have to accept
£20/£50 notes and risk accepting forgeries.

shokk
john boyle
2004-10-04 18:11:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shockwave
Post by Tom Moore
No idea. Perhaps they do not want anyone to know £20 notes were
withdrawn from the legal tender list, so that only branches of Her
Britannic Majesty's Government will have that weapon to combat fraud,
of which the £20 was the most common.
it because the twenty is widely copied.
have u seen signs in shops that say "sorry we don't accept £20/£50
notes"? the act of withdrawing the twenty and fifty from the list of
legal tender makes such notices completely legal.
The poster was wrong. CURRENT issue £20 + £50 are still legal tender in
UK.
Post by Shockwave
if the notes were still on the list then traders would have to accept
£20/£50 notes and risk accepting forgeries.
No they dont.
--
John Boyle
Cynic
2004-10-04 20:38:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shockwave
have u seen signs in shops that say "sorry we don't accept £20/£50
notes"? the act of withdrawing the twenty and fifty from the list of
legal tender makes such notices completely legal.
if the notes were still on the list then traders would have to accept
£20/£50 notes and risk accepting forgeries.
You are incorrect. The term "legal currency" does not mean that money
so defined *must* be accepted by a person or a shop in exchange for
goods. It means only that it must be accepted *by a court* (and I
think certain other institutes) as settlement for a debt.
--
Cynic
john boyle
2004-10-04 21:32:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cynic
The term "legal currency"
Who said "legal currency"?
--
John Boyle
Cynic
2004-10-04 21:49:42 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 22:32:38 +0100, john boyle
Post by john boyle
Post by Cynic
The term "legal currency"
Who said "legal currency"?
Sorry, I meant "legal tender"
--
Cynic
john boyle
2004-10-04 22:17:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cynic
Post by john boyle
Who said "legal currency"?
Sorry, I meant "legal tender"
Fair enough!
--
John Boyle
Peter Parry
2004-09-05 08:09:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by IanAl
Howcome banks dish out £20 notes then?
Because all current Bank of England notes are legal tender. The
older style £20 note, featuring Michael Faraday, was withdrawn from
circulation in February 2001.

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/legaltender.htm
--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/
IanAl
2004-09-05 14:15:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Parry
Post by IanAl
Howcome banks dish out £20 notes then?
Because all current Bank of England notes are legal tender. The
older style £20 note, featuring Michael Faraday, was withdrawn from
circulation in February 2001.
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/legaltender.htm
Are you saying that Tom Moore doesn't know what he's talking about?
<g>

BTW I'm surprised at this bit:

"The current series of Bank of England notes are legal tender in
England and Wales, although not in Scotland or Northern Ireland, where
the only currency carrying legal tender status for unlimited amounts
is the one pound and two pound coins."

So you can turn up with a sackful of pound coins to pay for a car or
house.
bigbrian
2004-09-05 15:07:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by IanAl
Post by Peter Parry
Post by IanAl
Howcome banks dish out £20 notes then?
Because all current Bank of England notes are legal tender. The
older style £20 note, featuring Michael Faraday, was withdrawn from
circulation in February 2001.
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/legaltender.htm
Are you saying that Tom Moore doesn't know what he's talking about?
<g>
"The current series of Bank of England notes are legal tender in
England and Wales, although not in Scotland or Northern Ireland, where
the only currency carrying legal tender status for unlimited amounts
is the one pound and two pound coins."
Indeed not even Scottish bank notes are legal tender in Scotland
Post by IanAl
So you can turn up with a sackful of pound coins to pay for a car or
house.
But the seller doesn't have to sell to you if that's your means of
payment and he'd prefer not to accept it

Brian
Tom Moore
2004-09-05 21:58:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by IanAl
Post by Peter Parry
Post by IanAl
Howcome banks dish out £20 notes then?
Because all current Bank of England notes are legal
tender. The older style £20 note, featuring Michael
Faraday, was withdrawn from circulation in February 2001.
That was 2001. I was referring to 2003, or it may have been 2002, when
combating fraudulent £20 notes was all the rage.
Post by IanAl
Are you saying that Tom Moore doesn't know what he's talking about?
<g>
"The current series of Bank of England notes are legal
tender in England and Wales, although not in Scotland
or Northern Ireland, where the only currency carrying
legal tender status for unlimited amounts is the one
pound and two pound coins."
Very funny: click this

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/legaltender.htm

Where you will read, exactly the passage you took the piss out of,
thinking I was its author.

The current series of Bank of England notes are legal tender in England
and Wales, although not in Scotland or Northern Ireland, where the only
currency carrying legal tender status for unlimited amounts is the one
pound and two pound coins.

Why not accuse the Bank of England of being mad?
Post by IanAl
So you can turn up with a sackful of pound
coins to pay for a car or house.
I do not know Scots law as well as English (or at all really). The
offer of legal tender extinquishes a debt. Presumably if the Scots
vendor knows you intend to pay for a house with a few sacks of coins,
s/he will decline the sale.

In England & Wales, before the debt exists, no obligation to sell
exists, and hence no obligation to accept legal legal can, at that
time, exist.

But why not continue being rude to me? After all, as the German
military put it so well in 1945/6, "we were only obeying orders."
--
Tom Moore

http://www.tom-moore.com
Sufaud
2004-09-06 18:52:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by IanAl
"The current series of Bank of England notes are legal
tender in England and Wales, although not in Scotland
or Northern Ireland, where the only currency carrying
legal tender status for unlimited amounts is the one
pound and two pound coins."
An earlier posting seems to have gone astray. The question really is:
in an era when cheques, credit and debit cards account for most
transactions, does the definition of "legal tender" matter, unless
it's to harass?

And in fact "legal tender" today simply begs the question: "can you
pay your taxes with this money".

In real life, you can change regional notes freely at the English
branch (or owning bank) of the Scottish or NI bank that issued them.
Channel Islands currency is a special case.
Tom Moore
2004-09-20 07:10:09 UTC
Permalink
The question really is: in an era when cheques,
credit and debit cards account for most transactions,
does the definition of "legal tender" matter, unless
it's to harass?
Cheques and plastic are legal tender in certain circumstances, but you
ask the right question all the same.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Legal_tender

Is a reasonable start.
And in fact "legal tender" today simply begs the
question: "can you pay your taxes with this money".
No, the offer of legal tender, extinguishes a civil debt. H M
government can decline legal tender: they make up their own rules.
In real life, you can change regional notes freely
at the English branch (or owning bank) of the Scottish
or NI bank that issued them.
All sterling linked currency must by law be credited at face value into
your UK bank account.
Channel Islands currency
is a special case.
No that's linked to sterling, and will be credited into your UK bank
account at face value. Then you can withdraw the same amount in legal
tender.

Given this, the question must be why sterling linked currency is
refused. I could tell you, but sorry, it is more than my job's worth.
--
Tom Moore
http://www.tom-moore.com
Sufaud
2004-09-20 10:35:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Moore
Post by Sufaud
And in fact "legal tender" today simply begs the
question: "can you pay your taxes with this money".
This is the classic example given in economics textbooks: people will
accept a given currency if they can pay their taxes with it. For the
rest of their obligations they can barter, etc. Think of Cuba, where
Cuban currency will not buy you much, but you can pay your taxes with
it. There are two parallel currencies: the US dollar (for buying
imported goods, among other things) and ration coupons.
Post by Tom Moore
No, the offer of legal tender, extinguishes a civil debt. H M
government can decline legal tender: they make up their own rules.
That's too theoretical and legalistic. If we are talking of cash
transactions, you can't force a shopkeeper to sell to you for
banknotes s/he doesn't want to accept, "legal tender" or not: there is
no "debt" yet. Of course, as in Zimbabwe, the law may be different,
and may force the shopkeeper into insolvency, accepting worthless
paper.
Post by Tom Moore
Post by Sufaud
In real life, you can change regional notes freely
at the English branch (or owning bank) of the Scottish
or NI bank that issued them.
All sterling linked currency must by law be credited at face value into
your UK bank account.
Not quite true, but we may be nit-picking over the term "Sterling
linked currency". There used to be currency-board currency (mostly in
the Colonies), and probably there were British Forces notes (I have
samples of US military payment certificates, and I assume the British
had the same thing during the Occupation). Scottish banknotes tend to
sell at a discount (by comparison with English ones) overseas. Mostly
because of the nuisance value; otherwise they would have to be bundled
and shipped off to the UK.
Post by Tom Moore
Post by Sufaud
Channel Islands currency
is a special case.
I meant, in terms that it is not issued by a bank that has branches in
the City, but by the Bailiwick treasury (or some such), as I recall.
Post by Tom Moore
No that's linked to sterling, and will be credited into your UK bank
account at face value. Then you can withdraw the same amount in legal
tender.
Given this, the question must be why sterling linked currency is
refused. I could tell you, but sorry, it is more than my job's worth.
Nobody is going to accept a banknote s/he has never seen before, and
cannot verify as being genuine. Funnily enough, some of the most
counterfeit-proof currency in the world is rubbish inconvertible
money. However impressive a banknote issued by the Left Bank of the
Severn may be, if you haven't seen one before, no law on "legal
tender" is going to make you change your mind. I think it is far
easier to spend euros in Northern Ireland than Gibraltar or Channel
Islands, or even Scottish money.

Anyway, as I said, and as you agreed, the issue is largely moot. I
would rather spend my time trying to figure out which debit or credit
card fleeces me the least on currency exchange. Amex used to load the
conversion with 1/2 of 1%. Then it was 1%. Now I see it's 2.73%.
That's the best reason I can think of for switching to the euro.

Now I'm going to read a book I used in economics class 40 years ago:
"Monetary Policy Under the International Gold Standard 1880-1914" by
Arthur I. Bloomfield, published in 1959 by the Federal Reserve Bank of
New York.
Tom Moore
2004-09-20 15:53:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sufaud
This is the classic example given in economics textbooks: people
will accept a given currency if they can pay their taxes with it.
Governments of the former Warsaw Pact used to refuse their own
currencies, from foreigners, in favour of their western funds. If you
went to East Berlin to learn German, you had to pay using German Marks,
not the DDR Mark. (Deutschmark is an English word, which translates to
D-Mark, Mark or formerly die Deutsche Mark)
Post by Sufaud
Think of Cuba, where Cuban currency
will not buy you much, but you can
pay your taxes with it.
I bet Fidel does not accept sales tax revenues from foreigner hotels in
his own currency.
Post by Sufaud
If we are talking of cash transactions, you
can't force a shopkeeper to sell to you for
banknotes s/he doesn't want to accept, "legal
tender" or not: there is no "debt" yet.
This means the issue is never challenged properly, and the position
never made clear. Thus the legal tender myth is perpetuated.
Post by Sufaud
Amex used to load the conversion with 1/2 of 1%.
Then it was 1%. Now I see it's 2.73%. That's the
best reason I can think of for switching to the euro.
American excuse anyone?
--
Tom Moore
http://www.tom-moore.com
crofter
2004-09-20 17:36:09 UTC
Permalink
x-no-archive: yes

they may work in vending machines, though not legal tender afaik..
Sufaud
2004-09-20 18:19:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Moore
Post by Sufaud
This is the classic example given in economics textbooks: people
will accept a given currency if they can pay their taxes with it.
Governments of the former Warsaw Pact used to refuse their own
currencies, from foreigners, in favour of their western funds. If you
went to East Berlin to learn German, you had to pay using German Marks,
not the DDR Mark. (Deutschmark is an English word, which translates to
D-Mark, Mark or formerly die Deutsche Mark)
Not exactly true. Most Communist countries, and most currency-control
countries (including Britain when I was a student here in 1970 and a
diplomat in 1977) have "convertible" Rubles, or Dinars, or Pounds etc.
OK, it didn't much matter with pounds since if you could smuggle the
banknotes to Switzerland they could be exchanged for anything. But
with Algerian dinars or Russian rubles and other currencies where the
banknotes were essentially worthless abroad it meant that you could
freely exchange them for foreign currency, and pay local hard-currency
debts (and buy air tickets, pay foreigners' taxes, etc.) with that
local currency. Convertible renmimbi yuan were issued as a special
banknote; the others (such as French francs) could be issued as
convertible travellers' cheques, but never as cash. If, for example,
you wanted to buy an air or a boat ticket with Egyptian pounds in
cash, you also needed a bank receipt to show you'd bought them with
hard currency.

But you keep raising red herrings, which is OK except that while it's
the truth, it's not the whole truth...

I have a drawerful of Belarusian rubles. Trouble is, they were
demonetised on Jan. 1, 2001.
Tom Moore
2004-09-21 01:03:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sufaud
But you keep raising red herrings, which is OK except
that while it's the truth, it's not the whole truth...
True.

I gather the Green Back is worth more in Moscow than our pounds. They
do not recognise UK currency.

Isn't it strange that this happens to money, but not educational
qualifications? I see Her Majesty's Government have started printing
'O' level equivalent GCSEs, 'A' levels and University Degrees as if
they we all going out of fashion, but not one of them has lost any
value.

In fact, if we suggest otherwise, we're insulting the students who have
worked so hard to get their 5 grade A GCE 'A' levels.

Convertible DDR GCE 'A' levels that is.
--
Tom Moore
http://www.tom-moore.com
Norm Preston
2004-09-20 18:14:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sufaud
Post by Sufaud
And in fact "legal tender" today simply begs the
question: "can you pay your taxes with this money".
This is the classic example given in economics textbooks: people will
accept a given currency if they can pay their taxes with it. For the
rest of their obligations they can barter, etc. Think of Cuba, where
Cuban currency will not buy you much, but you can pay your taxes with
it. There are two parallel currencies: the US dollar (for buying
imported goods, among other things) and ration coupons.
Paying taxes is not a major concern for most Cubans, since they don't
have to do pay any (or it is deducted from their wages). Similarly,
most people in the UK are on PAYE and banks deduct tax at source from
the interest, so it it irrelevant whether I can pay taxes with the
pounds I get. What matters is that I will be able to buy things I want
with pounds, so pounds are an acceptable form of payment to me,
whereas Zimbabwean or Cuban money would not be.

Norm
Jim Watt
2004-09-20 20:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sufaud
I think it is far
easier to spend euros in Northern Ireland than Gibraltar or Channel
Islands, or even Scottish money.
Nonsense.

We have a steady flow of spaniards who expect to spend nothing apart
from their currency, most shops and bars used to take pesetas and
to be fair the bars in La Linea would take Gibraltar notes on the
basis that they could exchange them at no cost on the next shopping
trip.

Locally the banks decided not to accept 100 euro and above notes
however they can easily be banked with a 20 min walk across the
frontier so Barclays loss is banesto's gain and the queue is
shorter.

AND Gibraltar notes and coins should be accepted by UK banks
because they are sterling.

--
Jim Watt
www.gibnet.com
Tom Moore
2004-09-21 01:04:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Watt
AND Gibraltar notes and coins should be accepted
by UK banks because they are sterling.
They are.

The problems is it is difficult to get them accepted by traders in
England. The traders can take them to their banks without problems,
but it's difficult to use them as change. The English are too pompous.
--
Tom Moore
http://www.tom-moore.com
Jim Watt
2004-09-21 21:59:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Moore
Post by Jim Watt
AND Gibraltar notes and coins should be accepted
by UK banks because they are sterling.
They are.
The problems is it is difficult to get them accepted by traders in
England. The traders can take them to their banks without problems,
but it's difficult to use them as change. The English are too pompous.
One can understant a certain caution, a bus driver nearly threw me off
for offering a Gib 50p The underground system is more forgiving.

--
Jim Watt
www.gibnet.com
Tom Moore
2004-09-22 03:24:51 UTC
Permalink
One can understand a certain caution, a bus driver
nearly threw me off for offering a Gib 50p
The job's worths in the cash office whinge if you include non-English
sterling linked currency with your takings. The trick is to keep the
non-English stuff separate, maintain a large float, and get to the Bank
when there's no queue.

Alternatively, make a big deal about being a reasonable person, that
you will accept Gib dosh, then call in at the next bank, leaving all
the passengers to wait for the bank clerk to deal with you. That's one
step up from changing a £10 note with 10p coins, because "that's all
I've got." Course it is.
--
Tom Moore
http://www.tom-moore.com
IanAl
2004-09-22 12:04:49 UTC
Permalink
On 21 Sep 2004 20:24:51 -0700, "Tom Moore"
Post by Tom Moore
One can understand a certain caution, a bus driver
nearly threw me off for offering a Gib 50p
The job's worths in the cash office whinge if you include non-English
sterling linked currency with your takings. The trick is to keep the
non-English stuff separate, maintain a large float, and get to the Bank
when there's no queue.
Just use them in slot machines.
Jim Watt
2004-09-24 21:38:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by IanAl
On 21 Sep 2004 20:24:51 -0700, "Tom Moore"
Post by Tom Moore
One can understand a certain caution, a bus driver
nearly threw me off for offering a Gib 50p
The job's worths in the cash office whinge if you include non-English
sterling linked currency with your takings. The trick is to keep the
non-English stuff separate, maintain a large float, and get to the Bank
when there's no queue.
Just use them in slot machines.
Thats my usual solution and there is generally only a handful, however
was amused to hear the clerk in a shop in a place I was staying telling
a woman she had a Gib coin and she whould not take it. I exchanged it
and then it dawned why there were 'foreign' coins in circulation in the
village ...

--
Jim Watt
www.gibnet.com
john boyle
2004-09-25 00:11:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Watt
Thats my usual solution and there is generally only a handful, however
was amused to hear the clerk in a shop in a place I was staying telling
a woman she had a Gib coin and she whould not take it. I exchanged it
and then it dawned why there were 'foreign' coins in circulation in the
village ...
The old addage, "bad money drives out the good money"
--
John Boyle
Sufaud
2004-09-23 12:58:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Watt
Locally the banks decided not to accept 100 euro and above notes
however they can easily be banked with a 20 min walk across the
frontier so Barclays loss is banesto's gain and the queue is
shorter.
Not every country in the euro-zone issues notes above 100-euros. I
recall that in those countries it may not be possible to pass the
notes except at a bank.
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