Discussion:
Putin poisons again
(too old to reply)
Oleg Smirnov
2018-03-14 21:24:52 UTC
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<http://tinyurl.com/yaglwvsd> irishtimes.com

Seamus Martin | 2018-03-14

.. London has become the city of choice for those who have made vast
fortunes following the fall of the Soviet Union and not all of them have
been squeaky-clean model citizens. Boris Berezovsky, for example, who
employed Litvinenko, had been a prime suspect in organising the murder of
American journalist Paul Klebnikov. Forbes Magazine, Klebnikov's employer,
continues on its website to point the finger in Berezovsky's direction.
A former British diplomat has told me in private that giving Berezovsky
asylum was considered a major mistake in UK diplomatic circles.

The anti-Putin Berezovsky died in mysterious circumstances not long after
he had lost a court case against pro-Putin oligarch Roman Abramovich,
owner of Chelsea FC. British police ruled that his death was suicide but
there are those in Britain who believe, or want to believe, he was murdered.

The oligarchs have been welcomed in London financial circles because of
the amount of their money. They have been welcomed too by May's
Conservative party, which, according to recent reports in the London
Times and Daily Telegraph, has received donations of ?820,000 from Russian
sources. Chancellor Philip Hammond has refused to return the money because
he did not want to tar the oligarchs "with Putin's brush".

Perhaps it is time to realise that if your country becomes a haven for
dodgy people like Berezovsky then dodgy things are likely to happen.

Read more <http://tinyurl.com/yaglwvsd>

...

The above article also provides details about Novichok, read it in full.

More about Novichok in RT atricle <https://on.rt.com/9100>

...

Even more in the fresh MoA piece (about Novichok as well).

<http://tinyurl.com/ycfbsp6m> moonofalabama.org

.. But most disturbing about the case are not the false claims Theresa
May makes. She is in deep political trouble over the Brexit negotiations
and other issues and needs any political diversion that she can get.
Blaming Russia for something is en vogue and might help her for a while.
No, the most troubling issue is the behavior of the media who fail to
point out that May's claims are bluster and that there is no evidence at
all that supports her claims. ..

May demanded and got a NATO meeting on the case. But the statement NATO
issued afterwards was extremely weak. It only offered support in
conducting the British investigation and it asked Russia to respond to
the British questions. Neither did it support the claims May made, nor
did it take any measures against Russia. A French spokesperson said "We
don't do fantasy politics" and demanded 'definite conclusions' on the
case before deciding anything. No support was given to May by the Trump
administration.

The story May wants to tell has way too much holes to be sustainable.
The involvement of the British double agent Skripal in the fake Steele
dossier about Trump is likely the real story behind the incident. No
international support is coming for May. The British opposition leader
Corbyn was right today when he demanded that she produces evidence for her
claims. A few more pushes and her house of cards will surely come down.

...
<http://tinyurl.com/yc4kzap6>
Russian Agents Are Whacking People in London Right, Left, and Center ..
Oleg Smirnov
2018-03-15 07:12:27 UTC
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<http://tinyurl.com/y9mordrt> orientalreview.org

.. Who Is Assassinating MI6 Assets On British Soil?

ORIENTAL REVIEW | 12/03/2018

...

Learn more about Litvinenko, Berezovsky, Perepelichny, Skripal.
<http://tinyurl.com/yc4kzap6>
Russian Agents Are Whacking People in London Right, Left, and Center ..
Oleg Smirnov
2018-03-15 07:14:43 UTC
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<http://tass.com/politics/994159>

.. Russia's Permanent Representative to the United Nations Vasily
Nebenzya said on Wednesday. .. "No research and development projects
code named Novichok have ever been carried out in Russia," he told a
United Security Council meeting. He recalled that Russia had stopped
all chemical weapons program as far back as 1992 and had destroyed
all of its chemical arsenals by 2017, which fact had been attested
by the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW).

According to the Russian diplomat, in the mid-1990s intelligence
services of some Western countries, including the United Kingdom and
the United States, took a number of specialists and "certain
documentation" from Russia to continue development of nerve agents.
"Results reached by these countries in the area of new toxic agents
that, due to some unknown reasons, are generally referred to in the
West as Novichok, can be seen in more than 200 open sources in NATO
countries," Nebenzya noted, adding that the Russian delegation could
provide references to these documents. ..

...
<http://tinyurl.com/yc4kzap6>
Russian Agents Are Whacking People in London Right, Left, and Center ..
george152
2018-03-15 19:07:48 UTC
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Post by Oleg Smirnov
<http://tass.com/politics/994159>
.. Russia's Permanent Representative to the United Nations Vasily
Nebenzya said on Wednesday. .. "No research and development projects
code named Novichok have ever been carried out in Russia," he told a
United Security Council meeting. He recalled that Russia had stopped all
chemical weapons program as far back as 1992 and had destroyed all of
its chemical arsenals by 2017, which fact had been attested by the
Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW).
How can you tell a Russian 'diplomat' is lying?
Their mouth is moving !

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johnny-knowall
2018-03-15 19:45:07 UTC
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Post by george152
Post by Oleg Smirnov
<http://tass.com/politics/994159>
.. Russia's Permanent Representative to the United Nations Vasily
Nebenzya said on Wednesday. .. "No research and development projects
code named Novichok have ever been carried out in Russia," he told a
United Security Council meeting. He recalled that Russia had stopped all
chemical weapons program as far back as 1992 and had destroyed all of
its chemical arsenals by 2017, which fact had been attested by the
Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW).
How can you tell a Russian 'diplomat' is lying?
Their mouth is moving !
I used to think the old ones were always the best, but now I’m not so sure.
Oleg Smirnov
2018-03-15 07:22:23 UTC
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<http://tinyurl.com/yazuwzoj> antiwar.com

.. Who Poisoned Sergei Skripal?

Justin Raimondo | March 15, 2018

.. The absurdity of this was inadvertently underscored by the comments of
Vil Mirzayanov, the Russian-born chemist who first revealed the existence
of "Novichok," the nerve agent developed by the Russians. Mirzayanov came
to the United States in 1995: in 2007, he published a book, State Secrets,
which tells his story as a chemist working in Russia's secret chemical
weapons facilities. Now 83, he gives the following explanation for the
attack on Skripal:

"'Only the Russians' developed this class of nerve agents, said the
chemist. 'They kept it and are still keeping it in secrecy.'

"The only other possibility, he said, would be that someone used the
formulas in his book to make such a weapon."

Oh, but what kind of a person would do that? Why, that would have to mean
that they were trying to frame the Russians by making it look like the
work of the FSB, the Russian intelligence agency. And we all know that's
just not possible - right?

The "evidence" we are given to support the "Russia-did-it" scenario is
that only the Russians have access to Novichok, and that it is such a
sophisticated poison that only a state actor could have pulled off this
attack. Yet .. Mirzayanov tells us it could be duplicated by anyone with
a copy of his book! ..

Read more <http://tinyurl.com/yazuwzoj>

...
<http://tinyurl.com/yc4kzap6>
Russian Agents Are Whacking People in London Right, Left, and Center ..
george152
2018-03-15 19:09:32 UTC
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Post by Oleg Smirnov
<http://tinyurl.com/yazuwzoj> antiwar.com
.. Who Poisoned Sergei Skripal?
Really getting desperate there Oleg..
How many posts in a row does that make now ?

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The Todal
2018-03-15 10:13:45 UTC
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From the official inquiry report into the death of Litvinenko.

On 24 November 2006, the day after Mr Litvinenko’s death, Sergey
Abeltsev, a member of the Russian State Duma, made a speech on the floor
of the Duma in which he said:
“Last night Alexander Litvinenko died in a London hospital. The deserved
punishment reached the traitor. I am confident that this terrible death
will be a serious warning to traitors of all colours wherever they are
located. In Russia, they do not pardon treachery.”

Mr Abeltsev is a member of the Liberal Democratic Party in Russia. The
leader of that party, Vladimir Zhironovsky, described Mr Litvinenko
following his death as a “scoundrel” and a “traitor” and suggested that
he had been killed by MI6 on behalf of the FSB.

During a radio interview in February 2007, Mr Gusak, Mr Litvinenko’s
former colleague in the FSB, expressed the view that Mr Litvinenko had
deserved to be executed.

Federal Law no.35-FZ of 2006 – On Counteraction of Terrorism was adopted
by the State Duma on 26 February 2006, endorsed by the Federation
Council on 1 March 2006 and signed into law by President Putin on 6
March 2006. The Terrorism Law runs to some 17 pages and reads as a code
providing for anti-terrorism measures to be taken by Russian forces. One
of the striking features of the Terrorism Law is that it makes provision
for Russian forces to take action against terrorism beyond the borders
of the Russian Federation.

On 11 July 2006 (three days after the second law had been passed by the
Duma), The Times published a letter written by Vladimir Bukovsky and
Oleg Gordievsky. It was short and to the point. It read as follows:

“Sir, As the seven leaders of the world’s most industrially developed
democracies are packing their suitcases in order to go to St Petersburg
for the G8 meeting, their would-be host, Former KGB Lieutenant–Colonel
Vladimir Putin, has rushed through the state Duma two new pieces of
legislation.

First, a new law enabling him to use his secret services as ‘death
squads’ to eliminate ‘extremists’ anywhere abroad (including in this
country).

Second, an amendment to existing law on fighting ‘extremism’, providing
a much broader definition of that ‘crime’ which, among other things,
will include now any ‘libellous’ statements about his Administration.
Thus, the stage is set for any critic of Putin’s regime here, especially
those campaigning against Russian genocide in Chechnya, to have an
appointment with a poison-tipped umbrella. According to the statement by
the Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov, the black list of potential
targets is already compiled."
Mike >
2018-03-15 14:45:09 UTC
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! From the official inquiry report into the death of Litvinenko.
!
!On 24 November 2006, the day after Mr Litvinenko’s death, Sergey
!Abeltsev, a member of the Russian State Duma, made a speech on the floor
!“Last night Alexander Litvinenko died in a London hospital. The deserved
!punishment reached the traitor. I am confident that this terrible death
!will be a serious warning to traitors of all colours wherever they are
!located. In Russia, they do not pardon treachery.”
I wonder why UK didnt do much that time , with all he proof and much more
dangerous incident. Even a British Airways plane coming from Moscow had
nuclear radiation of polonium .

maybe that time Russia was not defeating US and UK in Syria ..
!
!Mr Abeltsev is a member of the Liberal Democratic Party in Russia. The
!leader of that party, Vladimir Zhironovsky, described Mr Litvinenko
!following his death as a “scoundrel” and a “traitor” and suggested that
!he had been killed by MI6 on behalf of the FSB.
!
!During a radio interview in February 2007, Mr Gusak, Mr Litvinenko’s
!former colleague in the FSB, expressed the view that Mr Litvinenko had
!deserved to be executed.
!
!Federal Law no.35-FZ of 2006 – On Counteraction of Terrorism was adopted
!by the State Duma on 26 February 2006, endorsed by the Federation
!Council on 1 March 2006 and signed into law by President Putin on 6
!March 2006. The Terrorism Law runs to some 17 pages and reads as a code
!providing for anti-terrorism measures to be taken by Russian forces. One
!of the striking features of the Terrorism Law is that it makes provision
!for Russian forces to take action against terrorism beyond the borders
!of the Russian Federation.
!
!On 11 July 2006 (three days after the second law had been passed by the
!Duma), The Times published a letter written by Vladimir Bukovsky and
!
!“Sir, As the seven leaders of the world’s most industrially developed
!democracies are packing their suitcases in order to go to St Petersburg
!for the G8 meeting, their would-be host, Former KGB Lieutenant–Colonel
!Vladimir Putin, has rushed through the state Duma two new pieces of
!legislation.
!
!First, a new law enabling him to use his secret services as ‘death
!squads’ to eliminate ‘extremists’ anywhere abroad (including in this
!country).
!
!Second, an amendment to existing law on fighting ‘extremism’, providing
!a much broader definition of that ‘crime’ which, among other things,
!will include now any ‘libellous’ statements about his Administration.
!Thus, the stage is set for any critic of Putin’s regime here, especially
!those campaigning against Russian genocide in Chechnya, to have an
!appointment with a poison-tipped umbrella. According to the statement by
!the Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov, the black list of potential
!targets is already compiled."
The Todal
2018-03-15 16:21:13 UTC
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Post by Mike >
! From the official inquiry report into the death of Litvinenko.
!
!On 24 November 2006, the day after Mr Litvinenko’s death, Sergey
!Abeltsev, a member of the Russian State Duma, made a speech on the floor
!“Last night Alexander Litvinenko died in a London hospital. The deserved
!punishment reached the traitor. I am confident that this terrible death
!will be a serious warning to traitors of all colours wherever they are
!located. In Russia, they do not pardon treachery.”
I wonder why UK didnt do much that time , with all he proof and much more
dangerous incident. Even a British Airways plane coming from Moscow had
nuclear radiation of polonium .
maybe that time Russia was not defeating US and UK in Syria ..
I think HM government was embarrassed by its inability to prevent
Russian goons executing their critics in the UK.

Initially the government refused to allow a public inquiry - they knew
it would inevitably confirm the existing findings of our security
services and show that we've tolerated Russia's behaviour for political
convenience.

After the inquiry was over, ten years after Litvinenko's assassination,
his widow waited in vain for some firm action from our government.

Litvinenko was a dedicated critic of Putin's regime. It's possible that
what actually got him killed was his rather mischievous report that
Putin was a paedophile. But he had many other, more important criticisms
of Putin's gangster-like behaviour.
Oleg Smirnov
2018-03-15 22:47:09 UTC
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Post by The Todal
From the official inquiry report into the death of Litvinenko.
On 24 November 2006, the day after Mr Litvinenko's death, Sergey
Abeltsev, a member of the Russian State Duma, made a speech on the floor
"Last night Alexander Litvinenko died in a London hospital. The deserved
punishment reached the traitor. I am confident that this terrible death
will be a serious warning to traitors of all colours wherever they are
located. In Russia, they do not pardon treachery."
Mr Abeltsev is a member of the Liberal Democratic Party in Russia. The
leader of that party, Vladimir Zhironovsky, described Mr Litvinenko
following his death as a "scoundrel" and a "traitor" and suggested that
he had been killed by MI6 on behalf of the FSB.
During a radio interview in February 2007, Mr Gusak, Mr Litvinenko's
former colleague in the FSB, expressed the view that Mr Litvinenko had
deserved to be executed.
LDPR is a nest of Russian political clowns and freaks, and, basically,
the fact that someone expressed a satisfaction about someone else's death
doesn't mean that the former somehow caused the latter.

I myself consider Litvinenko a piece of filth, his activities pissed off
many in Russia, even regardless of their attitudes towards 'Putin' or the
Kremlin policies.
Post by The Todal
Federal Law no.35-FZ of 2006 - On Counteraction of Terrorism was adopted
by the State Duma on 26 February 2006, endorsed by the Federation
Council on 1 March 2006 and signed into law by President Putin on 6
March 2006. The Terrorism Law runs to some 17 pages and reads as a code
providing for anti-terrorism measures to be taken by Russian forces. One
of the striking features of the Terrorism Law is that it makes provision
for Russian forces to take action against terrorism beyond the borders
of the Russian Federation.
I don't know much about similar laws of other countries, but many of them
(the UK included) use their forces beyond their borders against what they
consider terrorism, and likely have legal reservations for that.
Post by The Todal
On 11 July 2006 (three days after the second law had been passed by the
Duma), The Times published a letter written by Vladimir Bukovsky
The man was later caught by the UK police as a paedophile btw.

...

'The official inquiry report' is full of such politicized reflections and
shoddy lyrics, and the real question is what does all this irrelevant petty
stuff have to do with actual criminal investigation on the merits?

The British 'justice' is rather a joke.
Oleg Smirnov
2018-03-16 01:53:36 UTC
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<https://sott.net/en380129> sott.net

.. Saga of the Spy and the Nerve Agent

Chris Kanthan | 15 Mar 2018

How dumb are the masses of the world? One need only look at the brazen,
obvious false flag incidents that the elites keep piling on. Trained to be
consumers of sensational news, the idiotic population of the West simply
accepts allegations without thinking or analysis.

Let's take a brief look at the claim that Putin/Kremlin/Russia used a
deadly chemical weapon (called "Novichok") against an ex-Russian spy who
has been living in the UK for eight years. Within hours of the incident, the
UK foreign minister - bozo Boris Johnson - claimed that Russia was behind
the attack. Then Theresa May said it's "highly likely" that Russia did it;
and everyone translated that into "definitely Russia did it." Now, of
course, crazed warmonger Nikki Haley has joined the chorus and even tells
people that Russia may use chemical weapons in New York. (OS: Nikkie had
proved herself ready to blame Russia for everything <http://u.to/fTiEEQ>.)

Who has Novichok? Yes, Novichok was invented and produced by the USSR in the
1970s and 80s. But that was 30+ years ago. Hello! Did anyone take the time
to wonder if it's now possible for others to possess or make it?

Who's Got CW? Russia got rid of all its chemical weapons under the
supervision of OPCW. On the other hand, the US hasn't destroyed all its
chemical weapons yet and there are <http://bit.ly/2HDigtd> still two CW
sites in the US! The US government claims it will destroy them within the
next five years. Sure.

Samples Everywhere: The fact is that many labs around the world have samples
of that deadly agent. It so happens that there is a UK military chemical lab
in Porton Down, just a few miles from where the alleged incident took place.
Each lab has a signature attached to it. If the UK wanted to be credible, it
would release the samples to third parties - Russia and OPCW - so they can
analyze it and see where it came from. But the UK refuses to do so. Wonder
why.

Guess Who Lives in the US: The "father" of Novichok defected to the US a
long time ago and lives there today. He brags about it openly on his
Facebook page <http://u.to/5zyEEQ>. His name is Vil Mirzayanov. (OS: His FB
page states "I at first time gave real chemical forumulas of the new
chemical agents of the series "Novichok" which are not listed in CWC list
of CA." Russian officials said that there was no any official program where
the "Novichok" term appeared, from which I suggest that it might be an
informal slang term among a group of chemists, or it might be even invented
by Mirzayanov himself. However, what matters is that it was promoted in the
Mirzayanov's writings, where the UK chemists and officials perhaps picked it
up from.)

The Formula is Well Known: This guy also wrote a book and revealed the
composition of the chemical agent.

Did the CIA get Hold of Novichok? The Novichok nerve agent was actually
produced in a lab in Uzbekistan, which became a separate country after the
fall of the Soviet Union in 1991. Then it became very close to the US. As
this 1999 New York Times article <http://tinyurl.com/y9nsob4k> reveals, the
US worked with the Uzbek government to dismantle the lab and helped many
scientists emigrate/defect to the US. So, it's safe to say that the CIA and
the US military have Novichok. (Think of Operation PaperClip when Nazi
scientists were brought into the US after World War II).

Is it possible that the entire story is bogus? This nerve agent is supposed
to be super deadly, but the UK government advised people http://u.to/tEKEEQ
near the area to use "baby wipes", "warm water" and "detergents" to clean
their belongings. Really?

And then if you look at the photos of experts at the site, there are these
guys in hazmat suits for visual impact. Then, along with them are UK cops
without any protective gear. Maybe they had baby wipes with them? It's just
like the nonsensical White Helmets story <http://u.to/8kOEEQ> where they
handle "Sarin gas victims" with bare hands. (Oh, btw, the White Helmets got
millions of $$ of funding from the UK government).

Motives, Opportunities: In any crime, we must look at the motives and
opportunities. The only ones to benefit from this are the West - US, UK,
Israel and the globalists. These warmongers are just mad that Putin is
helping Assad and ruining their psychotic plans for Middle East domination.

The Russian spy - Sergei Skripal - was a traitor who got arrested in 2004
<http://u.to/3USEEQ> for leaking state secrets to the UK. He was released in
2010 and sent to the UK as part of a spy-swap program. So Putin had 6 years
to kill the guy in the Russian prison. But no! Putin would release him, wait
for 8 more years, and then kill him in the most bizarre way possible just
before the World Cup and just before the Russian presidential election. My
God! Who believes this nonsense?

The only ones to benefit from this asymmetric propaganda war are Putin's
enemies.

How this idiotic country, the UK, once gave birth to Shakespeare and then
ruled the entire world is a mystery indeed. If in 2018, people believe such
idiotic fairy tales, we are doomed to have World War III soon.

...

I can add to that, that the fact is, everything what we know, so far, about
this incident, came from the allegations of the UK officials and anonymous
sources. It's theoretically possible that the Novichok narrative is entirely
a hoax. Some point out that the initially described symptoms of the Skripals
on the bench look rather like an overdose of a popular drug. May it be? I'm
incompetent about drugs and their symptoms. Given that the UK government has
refused to cooperate with independent experts and relevant organizations,
any speculations are possible. It's even possible to guess that the Skripals
were initially intoxicated with something non-exotic / non-lethal, and later,
after they were taken in hospital, they were additionally intoxicated with
Novichok in order to utilize the opprotunity for the PR campaign.

From the 'who benefits' perspective it's certainly not "Putin", - whatever
'dictator' he was in your sick imagination, he is certainly not a primitive
monstrous maniac who doesn't care about what people might think and seeks to
affirm himself by ruthless cruelty, that would be as ruthless as meaningless
in the Skripals' case.

It rather looks like the organizer of the poisoning intentionally sought to
make the incident impressive for public in order to prodice noise and alarm
and thus urge the politicians - or give them a pretext - "to do something
about that", and so the question is whether it was a shadowy third party or
certain elements within the British/Atlanticist 'deep state'.
Pelican
2018-03-16 02:16:46 UTC
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On 16/03/2018 12:53, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
< propaganda snipped >
Post by Oleg Smirnov
It rather looks like the organizer of the poisoning intentionally sought
to make the incident impressive for public in order to prodice noise and
alarm and thus urge the politicians - or give them a pretext - "to do
something about that", and so the question is whether it was a shadowy
third party or certain elements within the British/Atlanticist 'deep
state'.
No, it was just the usual Russian incompetence in execution.
Oleg Smirnov
2018-03-16 02:22:36 UTC
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Post by Pelican
Post by Oleg Smirnov
It rather looks like the organizer of the poisoning intentionally sought
to make the incident impressive for public in order to prodice noise and
alarm and thus urge the politicians - or give them a pretext - "to do
something about that", and so the question is whether it was a shadowy
third party or certain elements within the British/Atlanticist 'deep
state'.
No, it was just the usual Russian incompetence in execution.
In the patriotic Hollywood movies you can find imaginary 'Russians'
attributed with a self-contradictory mix of incredible craftiness and
incredible stupidity, but the real life is not such a movie.

That's just what the original writer of the article I've cited meant
<https://sott.net/en380129>: "How dumb are the masses ..? .. Trained
to be consumers of sensational news, the idiotic population of the
West simply accepts allegations without thinking or analysis." Thanks
to the Hollywood movies and the MSM that bring the silly sheep up.
Pelican
2018-03-16 02:45:50 UTC
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Post by Oleg Smirnov
Post by Pelican
Post by Oleg Smirnov
It rather looks like the organizer of the poisoning intentionally
sought to make the incident impressive for public in order to prodice
noise and alarm and thus urge the politicians - or give them a
pretext - "to do something about that", and so the question is
whether it was a shadowy third party or certain elements within the
British/Atlanticist 'deep state'.
No, it was just the usual Russian incompetence in execution.
In the patriotic Hollywood movies you can find imaginary 'Russians'
attributed with a self-contradictory mix of incredible craftiness and
incredible stupidity, but the real life is not such a movie.
Of course. Just as in the patriotic Russian movies you can find
imaginary "westerners" attributed with a self-contradictory mix of
incredible craftiness and incredible stupidity, but the real life is not
such a movie. Pointing out the nonsense of "patriotic" movies is childish.
Post by Oleg Smirnov
That's just what the original writer of the article I've cited meant
<https://sott.net/en380129>: "How dumb are the masses ..? .. Trained to
be consumers of sensational news, the idiotic population of the West
simply accepts allegations without thinking or analysis." Thanks
to the Hollywood movies and the MSM that bring the silly sheep up.
The evidence is that the Russian government attempted to murder two
people in the UK. You might not like that, but it's the situation.

The Russian government is still responsible when the incompetents it
uses as its agents do things very badly.
Oleg Smirnov
2018-03-16 02:48:10 UTC
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Post by Pelican
Post by Oleg Smirnov
That's just what the original writer of the article I've cited meant
<https://sott.net/en380129>: "How dumb are the masses ..? .. Trained to
be consumers of sensational news, the idiotic population of the West
simply accepts allegations without thinking or analysis." Thanks
to the Hollywood movies and the MSM that bring the silly sheep up.
The evidence is that the Russian government attempted to murder two
So show me the evidence.
Pelican
2018-03-16 03:15:19 UTC
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Post by Oleg Smirnov
Post by Pelican
Post by Oleg Smirnov
That's just what the original writer of the article I've cited meant
<https://sott.net/en380129>: "How dumb are the masses ..? .. Trained
to be consumers of sensational news, the idiotic population of the
West simply accepts allegations without thinking or analysis." Thanks
to the Hollywood movies and the MSM that bring the silly sheep up.
The evidence is that the Russian government attempted to murder two
So show me the evidence.
Oleg, you know very well that no evidence would be enough to persuade
you of anything contrary to what your minder has told you.
Oleg Smirnov
2018-03-16 07:13:41 UTC
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Post by Pelican
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Post by Pelican
Post by Oleg Smirnov
That's just what the original writer of the article I've cited meant
<https://sott.net/en380129>: "How dumb are the masses ..? .. Trained
to be consumers of sensational news, the idiotic population of the
West simply accepts allegations without thinking or analysis." Thanks
to the Hollywood movies and the MSM that bring the silly sheep up.
The evidence is that the Russian government attempted to murder two
So show me the evidence.
Oleg, you know very well that no evidence would be enough to persuade
you of anything contrary to what your minder has told you.
I'm rational person, not a zealot, and I do not have a 'minder'.
If you show me something convincing then I'd have to agree. I even
allow some small probability that the organizers might be linked to
some rogue / delusional elements in Russia whose motivation might be
both either pro-western or reactionary-isolationist, in opposition to
the Kremlin line. The point above is about evidence anyway. You have
yourself no evidence, actually, what you really have is rather a trust
to your government that has said that they have an evidence (and then
you tell me about my minder). Meanwhile even your minder / government
uses fuzzy 'highly likely' wording, which suggests that they have no a
reliable evidence.

However, their belligerent rhetoric sounds as if they certainly knew
everything. Moreover, they had taken up such a cocky stance against
'Russia' immediately, when it was still too early them to be able to
obtain any evidence. Which suggests that they are driven by agenda
rather than by desire for a thorough investigation. Their refusal to
follow the international OPCW procedure also means that investigation
isn't their top priority. Instead they made an effort to get support
from the major NATO powers, and now promote the ridiculous "Russia
attacked the UK" narrative.

A normal situation would be to conduct an investigation and then go
to political conclusions and actions (if any). But the UK government
[deliberately ???] does it the opposite way. They immediately made
political claims and stirred up jingoism among the British populace.
They behave in a non-civilized bigotry way, ie. do not leave room for
- let it be even small - probability that their 'Russia' suspicion
may turn out false, althoug the investigation isn't still completed.

Then, a question is, what kind of trust can be to such agenda driven
cocky bigots? Is there a confidence that they would not make evidence
up? To a reasonable and impartial person, answer should be obvious.

All this still does not negate the idea that if I see a convincing
evidence then I would have to agree, but given the above I think it's
very unlikely that your government will show a convincing evidence.
Pelican
2018-03-16 07:34:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Post by Pelican
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Post by Pelican
Post by Oleg Smirnov
That's just what the original writer of the article I've cited meant
<https://sott.net/en380129>: "How dumb are the masses ..? ..
Trained to be consumers of sensational news, the idiotic population
of the West simply accepts allegations without thinking or
analysis." Thanks
to the Hollywood movies and the MSM that bring the silly sheep up.
The evidence is that the Russian government attempted to murder two
So show me the evidence.
Oleg, you know very well that no evidence would be enough to persuade
you of anything contrary to what your minder has told you.
I'm rational person, not a zealot, and I do not have a 'minder'.
If you show me something convincing then I'd have to agree. I even
allow some small probability that the organizers might be linked to some
rogue / delusional elements in Russia whose motivation might be
both either pro-western or reactionary-isolationist, in opposition to
the Kremlin line. The point above is about evidence anyway. You have
yourself no evidence, actually, what you really have is rather a trust
to your government that has said that they have an evidence (and then
you tell me about my minder). Meanwhile even your minder / government
uses fuzzy 'highly likely' wording, which suggests that they have no a
reliable evidence.
However, their belligerent rhetoric sounds as if they certainly knew
everything. Moreover, they had taken up such a cocky stance against
'Russia' immediately, when it was still too early them to be able to
obtain any evidence. Which suggests that they are driven by agenda
rather than by desire for a thorough investigation. Their refusal to
follow the international OPCW procedure also means that investigation
isn't their top priority. Instead they made an effort to get support
from the major NATO powers, and now promote the ridiculous "Russia
attacked the UK" narrative.
A normal situation would be to conduct an investigation and then go to
political conclusions and actions (if any). But the UK government
[deliberately ???] does it the opposite way. They immediately made
political claims and stirred up jingoism among the British populace.
They behave in a non-civilized bigotry way, ie. do not leave room for
- let it be even small - probability that their 'Russia' suspicion may
turn out false, althoug the investigation isn't still completed.
Then, a question is, what kind of trust can be to such agenda driven
cocky bigots? Is there a confidence that they would not make evidence
up? To a reasonable and impartial person, answer should be obvious.
All this still does not negate the idea that if I see a convincing
evidence then I would have to agree, but given the above I think it's
very unlikely that your government will show a convincing evidence.
Keep digging that hole, Oleg.
Norman Wells
2018-03-16 09:03:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Oleg Smirnov
I'm rational person, not a zealot, and I do not have a 'minder'.
If you show me something convincing then I'd have to agree. I even
allow some small probability that the organizers might be linked to some
rogue / delusional elements in Russia whose motivation might be
both either pro-western or reactionary-isolationist, in opposition to
the Kremlin line. The point above is about evidence anyway. You have
yourself no evidence, actually, what you really have is rather a trust
to your government that has said that they have an evidence (and then
you tell me about my minder). Meanwhile even your minder / government
uses fuzzy 'highly likely' wording, which suggests that they have no a
reliable evidence.
There is plenty of 'reliable evidence' leading to proof beyond any
reasonable doubt. What is lacking is only 'complete proof'. But that
is not only impossible to obtain but unnecessary to show.

Very few have the means to carry out an attack like that on the Skripals
using the agent that was used. Very few have the motive. Very few have
the ability. Where someone has all three, and there is no plausible
alternative, the overwhelming probability is that that person committed
the crime. And that's the Russian State.
Oleg Smirnov
2018-03-16 09:21:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Oleg Smirnov
I'm rational person, not a zealot, and I do not have a 'minder'.
If you show me something convincing then I'd have to agree. I even
allow some small probability that the organizers might be linked to some
rogue / delusional elements in Russia whose motivation might be
both either pro-western or reactionary-isolationist, in opposition to
the Kremlin line. The point above is about evidence anyway. You have
yourself no evidence, actually, what you really have is rather a trust
to your government that has said that they have an evidence (and then
you tell me about my minder). Meanwhile even your minder / government
uses fuzzy 'highly likely' wording, which suggests that they have no a
reliable evidence.
There is plenty of 'reliable evidence' leading to proof beyond any
reasonable doubt. What is lacking is only 'complete proof'. But that
is not only impossible to obtain but unnecessary to show.
And how can you know? Your government said so, but afaik they didn't
show anything 'reliable' yet publicly. If I missed somethinmg, then point
me to where I can see it.

Otherwise you're a yet deluded one in jingoistic fervor.
Norman Wells
2018-03-16 10:28:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Oleg Smirnov
I'm rational person, not a zealot, and I do not have a 'minder'.
If you show me something convincing then I'd have to agree. I even
allow some small probability that the organizers might be linked to
some rogue / delusional elements in Russia whose motivation might be
both either pro-western or reactionary-isolationist, in opposition to
the Kremlin line. The point above is about evidence anyway. You have
yourself no evidence, actually, what you really have is rather a
trust to your government that has said that they have an evidence
(and then you tell me about my minder). Meanwhile even your minder /
government uses fuzzy 'highly likely' wording, which suggests that
they have no a
reliable evidence.
There is plenty of 'reliable evidence' leading to proof beyond any
reasonable doubt.  What is lacking is only 'complete proof'.  But that
is not only impossible to obtain but unnecessary to show.
And how can you know? Your government said so, but afaik they didn't
show anything 'reliable' yet publicly. If I missed somethinmg, then point
me to where I can see it.
Otherwise you're a yet deluded one in jingoistic fervor.
Perhaps you'd tell us who has the capacity to produce novichok agents
and deploy them? As far as I can see, they're not available on Amazon
and they tend to kill anyone trying to make them with any ordinary
chemistry set. That also applies to anyone trying to handle or deploy them.

That rather excludes anyone except national governments with somewhat
rare and specialised expertise.

Then perhaps you'd tell us what national government had the motivation
to kill the Skripals in such a bizarre and risky way other than the
Russian government.
johnny-knowall
2018-03-16 10:37:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Oleg Smirnov
I'm rational person, not a zealot, and I do not have a 'minder'.
If you show me something convincing then I'd have to agree. I even
allow some small probability that the organizers might be linked to
some rogue / delusional elements in Russia whose motivation might be
both either pro-western or reactionary-isolationist, in opposition to
the Kremlin line. The point above is about evidence anyway. You have
yourself no evidence, actually, what you really have is rather a
trust to your government that has said that they have an evidence
(and then you tell me about my minder). Meanwhile even your minder /
government uses fuzzy 'highly likely' wording, which suggests that
they have no a
reliable evidence.
There is plenty of 'reliable evidence' leading to proof beyond any
reasonable doubt. What is lacking is only 'complete proof'. But that
is not only impossible to obtain but unnecessary to show.
And how can you know? Your government said so, but afaik they didn't
show anything 'reliable' yet publicly. If I missed somethinmg, then point
me to where I can see it.
Otherwise you're a yet deluded one in jingoistic fervor.
Perhaps you'd tell us who has the capacity to produce novichok agents
and deploy them?
From what I heard on BBC radio this morning, that capacity is available to
anyone with a knowledge of chemistry, and the open source instructions which
were produced in Uzbekistan around 30 years ago.
Post by Norman Wells
As far as I can see,
Blind leading the blind?
Post by Norman Wells
they're not available on Amazon
and they tend to kill anyone trying to make them with any ordinary
chemistry set. That also applies to anyone trying to handle or deploy them.
How do you know this?
Post by Norman Wells
That rather excludes anyone except national governments with somewhat
rare and specialised expertise.
Pure government propaganda, and only fools those who are open to be fooled.
Post by Norman Wells
Then perhaps you'd tell us what national government had the motivation
to kill the Skripals in such a bizarre and risky way other than the
Russian government.
Israel?

They don’t like the way that the Syrian conflict is going.
Handsome Jack
2018-03-16 13:29:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Perhaps you'd tell us who has the capacity to produce novichok agents
and deploy them?
We don't know. Nor do you. The difference is that we know it, and adjust
our certainties accordingly.
Post by Norman Wells
As far as I can see, they're not available on Amazon and they tend to
kill anyone trying to make them with any ordinary chemistry set. That
also applies to anyone trying to handle or deploy them.
That rather excludes anyone except national governments with somewhat
rare and specialised expertise.
How do you know that? Are you an expert on safe handling of toxic
chemicals? Do you think it is only ever done by governments?
Post by Norman Wells
Then perhaps you'd tell us what national government had the motivation
to kill the Skripals in such a bizarre and risky way other than the
Russian government.
We don't know. Why would the Russian government kill somebody in such a
bizarre and risky way?
--
Jack
Norman Wells
2018-03-16 14:16:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Norman Wells
Perhaps you'd tell us who has the capacity to produce novichok agents
and deploy them?
We don't know. Nor do you. The difference is that we know it, and adjust
our certainties accordingly.
Post by Norman Wells
As far as I can see, they're not available on Amazon and they tend to
kill anyone trying to make them with any ordinary chemistry set. That
also applies to anyone trying to handle or deploy them.
That rather excludes anyone except national governments with somewhat
rare and specialised expertise.
How do you know that? Are you an expert on safe handling of toxic
chemicals? Do you think it is only ever done by governments?
Yes. These compounds have no uses other than to kill those you don't
like. And the only ones who both wish to do that and have the necessary
expertise are governments.
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Norman Wells
Then perhaps you'd tell us what national government had the motivation
to kill the Skripals in such a bizarre and risky way other than the
Russian government.
We don't know. Why would the Russian government kill somebody in such a
bizarre and risky way?
Because it can.
Handsome Jack
2018-03-16 17:12:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Norman Wells
Perhaps you'd tell us who has the capacity to produce novichok
agents and deploy them?
We don't know. Nor do you. The difference is that we know it, and
adjust our certainties accordingly.
Post by Norman Wells
As far as I can see, they're not available on Amazon and they tend
to kill anyone trying to make them with any ordinary chemistry set.
That also applies to anyone trying to handle or deploy them.
That rather excludes anyone except national governments with
somewhat rare and specialised expertise.
How do you know that? Are you an expert on safe handling of toxic
chemicals? Do you think it is only ever done by governments?
Yes.
You're an expert on safe handling of toxic chemicals?
These compounds have no uses other than to kill those you don't like.
When discussing how to handle toxic chemicals, it doesn't matter what
their uses are. What matters is how toxic and difficult to handle they
are.
And the only ones who both wish to do that and have the necessary
expertise are governments.
Rubbish. It is done all the time in certain industrial chemical
laboratories and university labs.
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Norman Wells
Then perhaps you'd tell us what national government had the
motivation to kill the Skripals in such a bizarre and risky way
other than the Russian government.
We don't know. Why would the Russian government kill somebody in
such a bizarre and risky way?
Because it can.
Meaningless bollocks.
--
Jack
Norman Wells
2018-03-16 18:12:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Perhaps you'd tell us who has the capacity to produce novichok
agents  and deploy them?
 We don't know. Nor do you. The difference is that we know it, and
adjust  our certainties accordingly.
Post by Norman Wells
As far as I can see, they're not available on Amazon and they tend
to  kill anyone trying to make them with any ordinary chemistry set.
That  also applies to anyone trying to handle or deploy them.
That rather excludes anyone except national governments with
somewhat  rare and specialised expertise.
 How do you know that? Are you an expert on safe handling of toxic
chemicals? Do you think it is only ever done by governments?
Yes.
You're an expert on safe handling of toxic  chemicals?
Enough to comment here.
These compounds have no uses other than to kill those you don't like.
When discussing how to handle toxic chemicals, it doesn't matter what
their uses are. What matters is how toxic and difficult to handle they are.
It does matter because no-one in their right mind would even attempt to
make them because of the massive risks involved. There has to be a
purpose in making them that outweighs such risks, and only governments
have such a purpose as regards Novichok agents.
And the only ones who both wish to do that and have the necessary
expertise are governments.
Rubbish. It is done all the time in certain industrial chemical
laboratories and university labs.
If they are produced, of course they're produced somewhere. But these
are so toxic and dangerous that they will only be produced with the
highest authority and in a national interest.
Post by Norman Wells
Then perhaps you'd tell us what national government had the
motivation  to kill the Skripals in such a bizarre and risky way
other than the  Russian government.
 We don't know. Why would the Russian government kill somebody in
such a  bizarre and risky way?
Because it can.
Meaningless bollocks.
Who else has the motivation to kill a spy for another nation other than
the nation spied against? Who else has access to Novichok agents? Who
else has the personnel trained to handle and administer them?

This is not an amateur production.
pensive hamster
2018-03-16 20:26:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Friday, 16 March 2018 14:16:42 UTC, Norman Wells wrote:
[...]
Post by Norman Wells
These compounds have no uses other than to kill those you don't
like. And the only ones who both wish to do that and have the necessary
expertise are governments.
Not necessarily just governments. There are plenty of expert
chemists in Russia. You would probably only need to bribe or
blackmail one or two.
Norman Wells
2018-03-16 22:18:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by Norman Wells
These compounds have no uses other than to kill those you don't
like. And the only ones who both wish to do that and have the necessary
expertise are governments.
Not necessarily just governments. There are plenty of expert
chemists in Russia. You would probably only need to bribe or
blackmail one or two.
It's not just expert chemists you need but the necessary chemical
precursors. It also requires incredible safety precautions to protect
those doing the work from any possible minute contact with it. That
requires supremely secure and correspondingly expensive facilities.

This is not kitchen table stuff but seriously the preserve of
governments alone.
pensive hamster
2018-03-17 00:16:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by Norman Wells
These compounds have no uses other than to kill those you don't
like. And the only ones who both wish to do that and have the necessary
expertise are governments.
Not necessarily just governments. There are plenty of expert
chemists in Russia. You would probably only need to bribe or
blackmail one or two.
It's not just expert chemists you need but the necessary chemical
precursors. It also requires incredible safety precautions to protect
those doing the work from any possible minute contact with it. That
requires supremely secure and correspondingly expensive facilities.
This is not kitchen table stuff but seriously the preserve of
governments alone.
There may be some quite organised, organised criminals in
Russia:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2163502-what-are-novichok-nerve-agents-and-did-russia-do-it/

'... The most potent members of the N-series are reportedly
Novichok-5 and 7. ...

'According to Mirzayanov, both are binary agents, meaning they
are made from two precursor chemicals that are mixed together
just before use. These precursors could be made at pesticide or
fertiliser manufacturers without arousing suspicion, he says.

'... John Lamb at Birmingham City University [says] Novichok
precursor chemicals are also safer to transport and handle than
ready-made nerve agents ...'
Norman Wells
2018-03-17 08:58:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by Norman Wells
These compounds have no uses other than to kill those you don't
like. And the only ones who both wish to do that and have the necessary
expertise are governments.
Not necessarily just governments. There are plenty of expert
chemists in Russia. You would probably only need to bribe or
blackmail one or two.
It's not just expert chemists you need but the necessary chemical
precursors. It also requires incredible safety precautions to protect
those doing the work from any possible minute contact with it. That
requires supremely secure and correspondingly expensive facilities.
This is not kitchen table stuff but seriously the preserve of
governments alone.
There may be some quite organised, organised criminals in
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2163502-what-are-novichok-nerve-agents-and-did-russia-do-it/
'... The most potent members of the N-series are reportedly
Novichok-5 and 7. ...
'According to Mirzayanov, both are binary agents, meaning they
are made from two precursor chemicals that are mixed together
just before use. These precursors could be made at pesticide or
fertiliser manufacturers without arousing suspicion, he says.
'... John Lamb at Birmingham City University [says] Novichok
precursor chemicals are also safer to transport and handle than
ready-made nerve agents ...'
Why would any even 'quite organised, organised criminals' go to any such
absurd lengths? It's not their normal modus operandi. Nor does it
serve any useful purpose.
abelard
2018-03-16 16:14:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Norman Wells
Perhaps you'd tell us who has the capacity to produce novichok agents
and deploy them?
We don't know. Nor do you. The difference is that we know it, and adjust
our certainties accordingly.
Post by Norman Wells
As far as I can see, they're not available on Amazon and they tend to
kill anyone trying to make them with any ordinary chemistry set. That
also applies to anyone trying to handle or deploy them.
That rather excludes anyone except national governments with somewhat
rare and specialised expertise.
How do you know that? Are you an expert on safe handling of toxic
chemicals? Do you think it is only ever done by governments?
Post by Norman Wells
Then perhaps you'd tell us what national government had the motivation
to kill the Skripals in such a bizarre and risky way other than the
Russian government.
We don't know. Why would the Russian government kill somebody in such a
bizarre and risky way?
because they're stupid?
--
www.abelard.org
Phi
2018-03-16 16:20:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by abelard
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Norman Wells
Perhaps you'd tell us who has the capacity to produce novichok agents
and deploy them?
We don't know. Nor do you. The difference is that we know it, and adjust
our certainties accordingly.
Post by Norman Wells
As far as I can see, they're not available on Amazon and they tend to
kill anyone trying to make them with any ordinary chemistry set. That
also applies to anyone trying to handle or deploy them.
That rather excludes anyone except national governments with somewhat
rare and specialised expertise.
How do you know that? Are you an expert on safe handling of toxic
chemicals? Do you think it is only ever done by governments?
Post by Norman Wells
Then perhaps you'd tell us what national government had the motivation
to kill the Skripals in such a bizarre and risky way other than the
Russian government.
We don't know. Why would the Russian government kill somebody in such a
bizarre and risky way?
because they're stupid?
because they didn't expect the poison to be identified. They have done it so
many times they are getting careless.
Post by abelard
--
www.abelard.org
abelard
2018-03-16 16:32:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Phi
Post by abelard
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Norman Wells
Perhaps you'd tell us who has the capacity to produce novichok agents
and deploy them?
We don't know. Nor do you. The difference is that we know it, and adjust
our certainties accordingly.
Post by Norman Wells
As far as I can see, they're not available on Amazon and they tend to
kill anyone trying to make them with any ordinary chemistry set. That
also applies to anyone trying to handle or deploy them.
That rather excludes anyone except national governments with somewhat
rare and specialised expertise.
How do you know that? Are you an expert on safe handling of toxic
chemicals? Do you think it is only ever done by governments?
Post by Norman Wells
Then perhaps you'd tell us what national government had the motivation
to kill the Skripals in such a bizarre and risky way other than the
Russian government.
We don't know. Why would the Russian government kill somebody in such a
bizarre and risky way?
because they're stupid?
because they didn't expect the poison to be identified. They have done it so
many times they are getting careless.
which means they are stupid...i can buy into that also

i've been watching these ruskis lately...they seem to be widely
uneducated(living in a deranged theoretical frame of reference)
doubtless part of the result of 70+ years of socialism
--
www.abelard.org
Handsome Jack
2018-03-16 17:16:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Phi
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Norman Wells
Then perhaps you'd tell us what national government had the motivation
to kill the Skripals in such a bizarre and risky way other than the
Russian government.
We don't know. Why would the Russian government kill somebody in such a
bizarre and risky way?
because they didn't expect the poison to be identified.
Presumably that explanation, if true, also applies to any other national
government. So the fact that the Skripals were attacked in a "bizarre
and risky way" doesn't particularly point to Russia.
--
Jack
Oleg Smirnov
2018-03-16 23:49:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Oleg Smirnov
I'm rational person, not a zealot, and I do not have a 'minder'.
If you show me something convincing then I'd have to agree. I even
allow some small probability that the organizers might be linked to
some rogue / delusional elements in Russia whose motivation might be
both either pro-western or reactionary-isolationist, in opposition to
the Kremlin line. The point above is about evidence anyway. You have
yourself no evidence, actually, what you really have is rather a
trust to your government that has said that they have an evidence
(and then you tell me about my minder). Meanwhile even your minder /
government uses fuzzy 'highly likely' wording, which suggests that
they have no a reliable evidence.
There is plenty of 'reliable evidence' leading to proof beyond any
reasonable doubt. What is lacking is only 'complete proof'. But that
is not only impossible to obtain but unnecessary to show.
And how can you know? Your government said so, but afaik they didn't
show anything 'reliable' yet publicly. If I missed somethinmg, then point
me to where I can see it.
Otherwise you're a yet deluded one in jingoistic fervor.
Perhaps you'd tell us who has the capacity to produce novichok agents
and deploy them? As far as I can see, they're not available on Amazon
and they tend to kill anyone trying to make them with any ordinary
chemistry set. That also applies to anyone trying to handle or deploy them.
That rather excludes anyone except national governments with somewhat
rare and specialised expertise.
I think, people and organizations with enough money to set up a
laboratory and hire chemists can do it, the 'national governments
only' is rather a wishful thinking.

Also, given the known post-Soviet realities in the 1990s, it well
may be possible that certain people or organizations could obtain
some stuff at the time and use it today.
Norman Wells
2018-03-17 09:02:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Oleg Smirnov
I'm rational person, not a zealot, and I do not have a 'minder'.
If you show me something convincing then I'd have to agree. I even
allow some small probability that the organizers might be linked to
some rogue / delusional elements in Russia whose motivation might be
both either pro-western or reactionary-isolationist, in opposition to
the Kremlin line. The point above is about evidence anyway. You
have yourself no evidence, actually, what you really have is rather
a trust to your government that has said that they have an evidence
(and then you tell me about my minder). Meanwhile even your minder
/ government uses fuzzy 'highly likely' wording, which suggests
that they have no a reliable evidence.
There is plenty of 'reliable evidence' leading to proof beyond any
reasonable doubt. What is lacking is only 'complete proof'. But that
is not only impossible to obtain but unnecessary to show.
And how can you know? Your government said so, but afaik they didn't
show anything 'reliable' yet publicly. If I missed somethinmg, then point
me to where I can see it.
Otherwise you're a yet deluded one in jingoistic fervor.
Perhaps you'd tell us who has the capacity to produce novichok agents
and deploy them?  As far as I can see, they're not available on Amazon
and they tend to kill anyone trying to make them with any ordinary
chemistry set.  That also applies to anyone trying to handle or deploy
them.
That rather excludes anyone except national governments with somewhat
rare and specialised expertise.
I think, people and organizations with enough money to set up a
laboratory and hire chemists can do it, the 'national governments only'
is rather a wishful thinking.
Why would anyone other than a government go to such lengths. What's
wrong with a good old stabbing, shooting or strangling?
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Also, given the known post-Soviet realities in the 1990s, it well
may be possible that certain people or organizations could obtain some
stuff at the time and use it today.
As well as the means, you have to consider the motive and the capacity
to carry it out. Where Novicok agents are concerned, all three only
come together in national governments.
johnny-knowall
2018-03-17 10:07:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Oleg Smirnov
I'm rational person, not a zealot, and I do not have a 'minder'.
If you show me something convincing then I'd have to agree. I even
allow some small probability that the organizers might be linked to
some rogue / delusional elements in Russia whose motivation might be
both either pro-western or reactionary-isolationist, in opposition to
the Kremlin line. The point above is about evidence anyway. You
have yourself no evidence, actually, what you really have is rather
a trust to your government that has said that they have an evidence
(and then you tell me about my minder). Meanwhile even your minder
/ government uses fuzzy 'highly likely' wording, which suggests
that they have no a reliable evidence.
There is plenty of 'reliable evidence' leading to proof beyond any
reasonable doubt. What is lacking is only 'complete proof'. But that
is not only impossible to obtain but unnecessary to show.
And how can you know? Your government said so, but afaik they didn't
show anything 'reliable' yet publicly. If I missed somethinmg, then point
me to where I can see it.
Otherwise you're a yet deluded one in jingoistic fervor.
Perhaps you'd tell us who has the capacity to produce novichok agents
and deploy them? As far as I can see, they're not available on Amazon
and they tend to kill anyone trying to make them with any ordinary
chemistry set. That also applies to anyone trying to handle or deploy
them.
That rather excludes anyone except national governments with somewhat
rare and specialised expertise.
I think, people and organizations with enough money to set up a
laboratory and hire chemists can do it, the 'national governments only'
is rather a wishful thinking.
Why would anyone other than a government go to such lengths. What's
wrong with a good old stabbing, shooting or strangling?
They create DNA trails. They create wounds on bodies. They create a lot of
external activity.
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Also, given the known post-Soviet realities in the 1990s, it well
may be possible that certain people or organizations could obtain some
stuff at the time and use it today.
As well as the means, you have to consider the motive and the capacity
to carry it out. Where Novicok agents are concerned, all three only
come together in national governments.
You don’t know this for certain. There are some very wealthy people out
there these days, and a few hundred million roubles deposited in a chemical
research account works wonders.
Norman Wells
2018-03-17 10:28:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by johnny-knowall
Post by Oleg Smirnov
I think, people and organizations with enough money to set up a
laboratory and hire chemists can do it, the 'national governments only'
is rather a wishful thinking.
Why would anyone other than a government go to such lengths. What's
wrong with a good old stabbing, shooting or strangling?
They create DNA trails. They create wounds on bodies. They create a lot of
external activity.
So what? They're still the methods of choice for anyone except governments.
Post by johnny-knowall
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Also, given the known post-Soviet realities in the 1990s, it well
may be possible that certain people or organizations could obtain some
stuff at the time and use it today.
As well as the means, you have to consider the motive and the capacity
to carry it out. Where Novicok agents are concerned, all three only
come together in national governments.
You don’t know this for certain. There are some very wealthy people out
there these days, and a few hundred million roubles deposited in a chemical
research account works wonders.
I think you've been watching rather too many James Bond films.

george152
2018-03-16 19:43:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Oleg Smirnov
And how can you know? Your government said so, but afaik they didn't
show anything 'reliable' yet publicly. If I missed somethinmg, then point
me to where I can see it.
Otherwise you're a yet deluded one in jingoistic fervor.
And is this the official Russian denial?
Must be difficult keeping up with the current 'We didn't do it and
anyway he, she, they deserved it'

---
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abelard
2018-03-16 10:01:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Post by Pelican
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Post by Pelican
Post by Oleg Smirnov
That's just what the original writer of the article I've cited meant
<https://sott.net/en380129>: "How dumb are the masses ..? .. Trained
to be consumers of sensational news, the idiotic population of the
West simply accepts allegations without thinking or analysis." Thanks
to the Hollywood movies and the MSM that bring the silly sheep up.
The evidence is that the Russian government attempted to murder two
So show me the evidence.
Oleg, you know very well that no evidence would be enough to persuade
you of anything contrary to what your minder has told you.
I'm rational person, not a zealot, and I do not have a 'minder'.
well i never...i had you all wrong smeary
--
www.abelard.org
Handsome Jack
2018-03-16 09:37:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Pelican
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Post by Pelican
Post by Oleg Smirnov
That's just what the original writer of the article I've cited meant
<https://sott.net/en380129>: "How dumb are the masses ..? ..
Trained to be consumers of sensational news, the idiotic population
of the West simply accepts allegations without thinking or
analysis." Thanks
to the Hollywood movies and the MSM that bring the silly sheep up.
The evidence is that the Russian government attempted to murder two
So show me the evidence.
Oleg, you know very well that no evidence would be enough to persuade
you of anything contrary to what your minder has told you.
That's not an answer. This is a public forum. It's not Oleg you have to
persuade. Show *us* the evidence.
--
Jack
The Todal
2018-03-16 10:15:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by Oleg Smirnov
That's just what the original writer of the article I've cited meant
<https://sott.net/en380129>: "How dumb are the masses ..? ..
Trained  to be consumers of sensational news, the idiotic
population of the  West simply accepts allegations without thinking
or analysis." Thanks
to the Hollywood movies and the MSM that bring the silly sheep up.
The evidence is that the Russian government attempted to murder two
 So show me the evidence.
Oleg, you know very well that no evidence would be enough to persuade
you of anything contrary to what your minder has told you.
That's not an answer. This is a public forum. It's not Oleg you have to
persuade. Show *us* the evidence.
I assume what you mean is: obtain the secret analysis findings from
Porton Down and then publish them in Usenet.

Only then can we, the people, assess the evidence properly. I think you
may have delusions of grandeur.
johnny-knowall
2018-03-16 10:31:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Todal
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Pelican
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Post by Pelican
Post by Oleg Smirnov
That's just what the original writer of the article I've cited meant
<https://sott.net/en380129>: "How dumb are the masses ..? ..
Trained to be consumers of sensational news, the idiotic
population of the West simply accepts allegations without thinking
or analysis." Thanks
to the Hollywood movies and the MSM that bring the silly sheep up.
The evidence is that the Russian government attempted to murder two
So show me the evidence.
Oleg, you know very well that no evidence would be enough to persuade
you of anything contrary to what your minder has told you.
That's not an answer. This is a public forum. It's not Oleg you have to
persuade. Show *us* the evidence.
I assume what you mean is: obtain the secret analysis findings from
Porton Down and then publish them in Usenet.
Rowing’s your man for that kind of escapade.

After all he once knew a person, whose brother’s mother’s uncle might
have actually worked there.
Post by The Todal
Only then can we, the people, assess the evidence properly. I think you
may have delusions of grandeur.
Handsome Jack
2018-03-16 10:45:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Todal
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Pelican
Post by Pelican
The evidence is that the Russian government attempted to murder two
 So show me the evidence.
Oleg, you know very well that no evidence would be enough to
persuade you of anything contrary to what your minder has told you.
That's not an answer. This is a public forum. It's not Oleg you have
to persuade. Show *us* the evidence.
I assume what you mean is: obtain the secret analysis findings from
Porton Down and then publish them in Usenet.
I didn't know the Porton Down analysis findings were secret. Why would
that be?
--
Jack
The Todal
2018-03-16 11:27:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by The Todal
Post by Pelican
Post by Pelican
The evidence is that the Russian government attempted to murder two
 So show me the evidence.
Oleg, you know very well that no evidence would be enough to
persuade  you of anything contrary to what your minder has told you.
 That's not an answer. This is a public forum. It's not Oleg you have
to  persuade. Show *us* the evidence.
I assume what you mean is: obtain the secret analysis findings from
Porton Down and then publish them in Usenet.
I didn't know the Porton Down analysis findings were secret. Why would
that be?
With so many recipe books available from bookshops - Jamie Oliver, Mary
Berry, Gordon Ramsey - I really can't see why we can't buy the Porton
Down Book of Biological and Chemical Weapons.

Someone ought to put in a Freedom of Information request.
abelard
2018-03-16 11:31:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Todal
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by The Todal
Post by Pelican
Post by Pelican
The evidence is that the Russian government attempted to murder two
 So show me the evidence.
Oleg, you know very well that no evidence would be enough to
persuade  you of anything contrary to what your minder has told you.
 That's not an answer. This is a public forum. It's not Oleg you have
to  persuade. Show *us* the evidence.
I assume what you mean is: obtain the secret analysis findings from
Porton Down and then publish them in Usenet.
I didn't know the Porton Down analysis findings were secret. Why would
that be?
With so many recipe books available from bookshops - Jamie Oliver, Mary
Berry, Gordon Ramsey - I really can't see why we can't buy the Porton
Down Book of Biological and Chemical Weapons.
Someone ought to put in a Freedom of Information request.
maybe you're not all bad
--
www.abelard.org
Handsome Jack
2018-03-16 13:26:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Todal
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by The Todal
I assume what you mean is: obtain the secret analysis findings from
Porton Down and then publish them in Usenet.
I didn't know the Porton Down analysis findings were secret. Why
would that be?
With so many recipe books available from bookshops - Jamie Oliver, Mary
Berry, Gordon Ramsey - I really can't see why we can't buy the Porton
Down Book of Biological and Chemical Weapons.
Someone ought to put in a Freedom of Information request.
I really can't see why you didn't answer my question. I notice Pelican
hasn't answered either. Perhaps you're realising that you don't actually
have any evidence beyond a press release issued by the British
government?
--
Jack
Norman Wells
2018-03-16 14:19:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by The Todal
Post by The Todal
I assume what you mean is: obtain the secret analysis findings from
Porton Down and then publish them in Usenet.
 I didn't know the Porton Down analysis findings were secret. Why
would  that be?
With so many recipe books available from bookshops - Jamie Oliver,
Mary Berry, Gordon Ramsey - I really can't see why we can't buy the
Porton Down Book of Biological and Chemical Weapons.
Someone ought to put in a Freedom of Information request.
I really can't see why you didn't answer my question. I notice Pelican
hasn't answered either. Perhaps you're realising that you don't actually
have any evidence beyond a press release issued by the British government?
Which says it was a Novichok agent. What further 'analysis findings'
would add to that and convince you?
Handsome Jack
2018-03-16 17:25:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by The Todal
Post by The Todal
I assume what you mean is: obtain the secret analysis findings
from Porton Down and then publish them in Usenet.
 I didn't know the Porton Down analysis findings were secret. Why
would  that be?
With so many recipe books available from bookshops - Jamie Oliver,
Mary Berry, Gordon Ramsey - I really can't see why we can't buy the
Porton Down Book of Biological and Chemical Weapons.
Someone ought to put in a Freedom of Information request.
I really can't see why you didn't answer my question. I notice
Pelican hasn't answered either. Perhaps you're realising that you
don't actually have any evidence beyond a press release issued by the
British government?
Which says it was a Novichok agent. What further 'analysis findings'
would add to that and convince you?
I'll tell you that when they are published. In the meantime, let me
record my amazement that anyone thinks British government press releases
must be accepted as the immutable truth.

And here's some further reading:
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/of-a-type-developed-by-li
ars/
--
Jack
johnny-knowall
2018-03-16 17:53:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by The Todal
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by The Todal
I assume what you mean is: obtain the secret analysis findings
from Porton Down and then publish them in Usenet.
I didn't know the Porton Down analysis findings were secret. Why
would that be?
With so many recipe books available from bookshops - Jamie Oliver,
Mary Berry, Gordon Ramsey - I really can't see why we can't buy the
Porton Down Book of Biological and Chemical Weapons.
Someone ought to put in a Freedom of Information request.
I really can't see why you didn't answer my question. I notice
Pelican hasn't answered either. Perhaps you're realising that you
don't actually have any evidence beyond a press release issued by the
British government?
Which says it was a Novichok agent. What further 'analysis findings'
would add to that and convince you?
I'll tell you that when they are published. In the meantime, let me
record my amazement that anyone thinks British government press releases
must be accepted as the immutable truth.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/of-a-type-developed-by-li
ars/
Unfortunately the brain dead brown nosers will not read that link because he
might have a grudge against the government.

But they will lap up all the shit the authorities pour on him, even though
the government has a grudge against Craig Murray.

These are the daily double standards many folk take as normal behaviour.
abelard
2018-03-16 18:02:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by johnny-knowall
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by The Todal
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by The Todal
I assume what you mean is: obtain the secret analysis findings
from Porton Down and then publish them in Usenet.
I didn't know the Porton Down analysis findings were secret. Why
would that be?
With so many recipe books available from bookshops - Jamie Oliver,
Mary Berry, Gordon Ramsey - I really can't see why we can't buy the
Porton Down Book of Biological and Chemical Weapons.
Someone ought to put in a Freedom of Information request.
I really can't see why you didn't answer my question. I notice
Pelican hasn't answered either. Perhaps you're realising that you
don't actually have any evidence beyond a press release issued by the
British government?
Which says it was a Novichok agent. What further 'analysis findings'
would add to that and convince you?
I'll tell you that when they are published. In the meantime, let me
record my amazement that anyone thinks British government press releases
must be accepted as the immutable truth.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/of-a-type-developed-by-li
ars/
Unfortunately the brain dead brown nosers will not read that link because he
might have a grudge against the government.
But they will lap up all the shit the authorities pour on him, even though
the government has a grudge against Craig Murray.
These are the daily double standards many folk take as normal behaviour.
just more of your empty predictions
--
www.abelard.org
Norman Wells
2018-03-16 18:25:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by The Todal
Post by The Todal
I assume what you mean is: obtain the secret analysis findings
from  Porton Down and then publish them in Usenet.
 I didn't know the Porton Down analysis findings were secret. Why
would  that be?
With so many recipe books available from bookshops - Jamie Oliver,
Mary Berry, Gordon Ramsey - I really can't see why we can't buy the
Porton Down Book of Biological and Chemical Weapons.
Someone ought to put in a Freedom of Information request.
 I really can't see why you didn't answer my question. I notice
Pelican  hasn't answered either. Perhaps you're realising that you
don't actually  have any evidence beyond a press release issued by
the British government?
Which says it was a Novichok agent.  What further 'analysis findings'
would add to that and convince you?
I'll tell you that when they are published. In the meantime, let me
record my amazement that anyone thinks British government press releases
must be accepted as the immutable truth.
No, not good enough. Tell us what sort of data would convince you. You
must have an idea surely if you're not talking through your backside.
Post by Handsome Jack
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/of-a-type-developed-by-li
ars/
It's always nice of course to have the views of a modern history
graduate and a diplomat on matters of chemistry. Whether they're
persuasive, though, is quite another matter.

For one thing, although he makes a big point of it, of course it's
impossible to say where a microgram of something was actually made. It
didn't come in a labelled box with a full provenance.
george152
2018-03-16 19:54:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by The Todal
Post by The Todal
I assume what you mean is: obtain the secret analysis findings from
Porton Down and then publish them in Usenet.
 I didn't know the Porton Down analysis findings were secret. Why
would  that be?
With so many recipe books available from bookshops - Jamie Oliver,
Mary Berry, Gordon Ramsey - I really can't see why we can't buy the
Porton Down Book of Biological and Chemical Weapons.
Someone ought to put in a Freedom of Information request.
I really can't see why you didn't answer my question. I notice Pelican
hasn't answered either. Perhaps you're realising that you don't
actually have any evidence beyond a press release issued by the
British government?
Which says it was a Novichok agent.  What further 'analysis findings'
would add to that and convince you?
He'd have to have it gone over by his Soviet masters before he could
venture their opinion.

---
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pensive hamster
2018-03-16 19:55:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Friday, 16 March 2018 02:23:00 UTC, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
[...]
Post by Oleg Smirnov
That's just what the original writer of the article I've cited meant
<https://sott.net/en380129>: "How dumb are the masses ..? .. Trained
to be consumers of sensational news, the idiotic population of the
West simply accepts allegations without thinking or analysis."
So how are you getting on, persuading the idiotic Westerners in
this newsgroup to accept your allegations?
Oleg Smirnov
2018-03-16 23:21:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by Oleg Smirnov
That's just what the original writer of the article I've cited meant
<https://sott.net/en380129>: "How dumb are the masses ..? .. Trained
to be consumers of sensational news, the idiotic population of the
West simply accepts allegations without thinking or analysis."
So how are you getting on, persuading the idiotic Westerners in
this newsgroup to accept your allegations?
It's as expected.

The West's pupation within its bubble of delusion has led to the situation
when the 'westerners' can not cope with the complexity of the modern world
outside the 'western' environment, it produces delusional foreign policy,
growth of xenophobic sentiments and regressive resort to things resembling
the archaic medieval practices.
pensive hamster
2018-03-17 00:00:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by Oleg Smirnov
That's just what the original writer of the article I've cited meant
<https://sott.net/en380129>: "How dumb are the masses ..? .. Trained
to be consumers of sensational news, the idiotic population of the
West simply accepts allegations without thinking or analysis."
So how are you getting on, persuading the idiotic Westerners in
this newsgroup to accept your allegations?
It's as expected.
The West's pupation
"Pupation"? Are you saying the West is shortly to emerge as a
beautiful butterfly?
Post by Oleg Smirnov
within its bubble of delusion has led to the situation
when the 'westerners' can not cope with the complexity of the modern world
outside the 'western' environment, it produces delusional foreign policy,
growth of xenophobic sentiments and regressive resort to things resembling
the archaic medieval practices.
Meanwhile, Russia is happily surfing the complex 21st century
post-modern post-truth zeitgeist ... yeah, sure.
Oleg Smirnov
2018-03-17 01:41:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by Oleg Smirnov
That's just what the original writer of the article I've cited meant
<https://sott.net/en380129>: "How dumb are the masses ..? .. Trained
to be consumers of sensational news, the idiotic population of the
West simply accepts allegations without thinking or analysis."
So how are you getting on, persuading the idiotic Westerners in
this newsgroup to accept your allegations?
It's as expected.
The West's pupation
"Pupation"? Are you saying the West is shortly to emerge as a
beautiful butterfly?
May well be, you just need some refresh and abandonment of some garbage.
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Oleg Smirnov
within its bubble of delusion has led to the situation
when the 'westerners' can not cope with the complexity of the modern world
outside the 'western' environment, it produces delusional foreign policy,
growth of xenophobic sentiments and regressive resort to things resembling
the archaic medieval practices.
Meanwhile, Russia is happily surfing the complex 21st century
post-modern post-truth zeitgeist ... yeah, sure.
Russia was at the bottom in the 90s, now it's on the return to normality.

The 'western elite' dislikes this, and the thin veneer of civilization falls
from their nice face, and the true colors of the ugly snout of the beast
become visible.
Handsome Jack
2018-03-16 08:49:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Pelican
< propaganda snipped >
Post by Oleg Smirnov
It rather looks like the organizer of the poisoning intentionally
sought to make the incident impressive for public in order to prodice
noise and alarm and thus urge the politicians - or give them a
pretext - "to do something about that", and so the question is
whether it was a shadowy third party or certain elements within the
British/Atlanticist 'deep state'.
No, it was just the usual Russian incompetence in execution.
Since you mention it, if it was the Russians, why didn't they just shoot
him? If you have a silenced pistol, it must be incredibly easy to kill a
private citizen who is not being constantly guarded by professionals.

It also has the advantage of not suggesting the nationality of the
perpetrators ... Oh, hang on.
--
Jack
Pelican
2018-03-16 09:07:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Pelican
< propaganda snipped >
 It rather looks like the organizer of the poisoning intentionally
sought  to make the incident impressive for public in order to
prodice noise and  alarm and thus urge the politicians - or give them
a pretext - "to do  something about that", and so the question is
whether it was a shadowy  third party or certain elements within the
British/Atlanticist 'deep  state'.
No, it was just the usual Russian incompetence in execution.
Since you mention it, if it was the Russians, why didn't they just shoot
him? If you have a silenced pistol, it must be incredibly easy to kill a
private citizen who is not being constantly guarded by professionals.
It also has the advantage of not suggesting the nationality of the
perpetrators ... Oh, hang on.
Like the Russian invasions of the Crimea/eastern Ukraine, with the
military uniforms saying "Not Russian! Honest!!". From the Arthur Daley
school of international relations.
Oleg Smirnov
2018-03-16 09:29:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Pelican
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Pelican
< propaganda snipped >
Post by Oleg Smirnov
It rather looks like the organizer of the poisoning intentionally
sought to make the incident impressive for public in order to
prodice noise and alarm and thus urge the politicians - or give them
a pretext - "to do something about that", and so the question is
whether it was a shadowy third party or certain elements within the
British/Atlanticist 'deep state'.
No, it was just the usual Russian incompetence in execution.
Since you mention it, if it was the Russians, why didn't they just shoot
him? If you have a silenced pistol, it must be incredibly easy to kill a
private citizen who is not being constantly guarded by professionals.
It also has the advantage of not suggesting the nationality of the
perpetrators ... Oh, hang on.
Like the Russian invasions of the Crimea/eastern Ukraine, with the
military uniforms saying "Not Russian! Honest!!". From the Arthur Daley
school of international relations.
There's no 'Russian invasion' in East Ukraine, while those 'polite
men' in Crimea fulfilled a positive task of preventing violence and
hooliganism before holding the popular referendum.

How can it be comparable with a pointless assassination?
Oleg Smirnov
2018-03-16 09:59:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Post by Pelican
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Pelican
< propaganda snipped >
Post by Oleg Smirnov
It rather looks like the organizer of the poisoning intentionally
sought to make the incident impressive for public in order to
prodice noise and alarm and thus urge the politicians - or give them
a pretext - "to do something about that", and so the question is
whether it was a shadowy third party or certain elements within the
British/Atlanticist 'deep state'.
No, it was just the usual Russian incompetence in execution.
Since you mention it, if it was the Russians, why didn't they just shoot
him? If you have a silenced pistol, it must be incredibly easy to kill a
private citizen who is not being constantly guarded by professionals.
It also has the advantage of not suggesting the nationality of the
perpetrators ... Oh, hang on.
Like the Russian invasions of the Crimea/eastern Ukraine, with the
military uniforms saying "Not Russian! Honest!!". From the Arthur Daley
school of international relations.
There's no 'Russian invasion' in East Ukraine, while those 'polite
men' in Crimea fulfilled a positive task of preventing violence and
hooliganism before holding the popular referendum.
How can it be comparable with a pointless assassination?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk
Suitcase spy poisoning plotNerve agent 'was planted in luggage of Sergei
Skripal's daughter'
The nerve agent that poisoned the Russian spy Sergei Skripal was planted in
his daughter's suitcase before she left Moscow, intelligence agencies now
believe.
Senior sources have told the Telegraph they are convinced the Novichok nerve
agent was hidden in the luggage of Yulia Skripal, the double agent's
33-year-old daughter.
They are working on the theory that the toxin was impregnated in an item of
clothing or cosmetics or else in a gift that was opened in his house in
Salisbury, meaning Miss Skripal was deliberately targeted to get at her
father.
The US 'intelligence agencies' believe (have a 'consensus opinion', so that
no one personally could be held responsible) that 'Russia' meddled in their
election, but when it comes to specifics there are 13 shoddy amateurs only.

But even if what the UK intelligence agencies believe is true, then I wonder
what might happen if she suddenly decided to unpack the suitcase somewhere on
the way. There might also be a customs examination or occasional damage of
the luggage. Those stupid Putin's operatives don't seem to give a shit about
such possibilities and don't care if it killed a lot of random people.

So far, everything issued by the British 'sources' fits the aforementioned
self-contradictory combination of both incredible craftiness and incredible
stupidity, which doesn't look realistic to me.
abelard
2018-03-16 10:15:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Oleg Smirnov
They are working on the theory that the toxin was impregnated in an item of
clothing or cosmetics or else in a gift that was opened in his house in
Salisbury, meaning Miss Skripal was deliberately targeted to get at her
father.
The US 'intelligence agencies' believe (have a 'consensus opinion', so that
no one personally could be held responsible) that 'Russia' meddled in their
election, but when it comes to specifics there are 13 shoddy amateurs only.
define 'meddled'...the only people whining on about rooshian
interference have been 'Liary's losers...
Post by Oleg Smirnov
But even if what the UK intelligence agencies believe is true, then I wonder
what might happen if she suddenly decided to unpack the suitcase somewhere on
the way. There might also be a customs examination or occasional damage of
the luggage. Those stupid Putin's operatives don't seem to give a shit about
such possibilities and don't care if it killed a lot of random people.
So far, everything issued by the British 'sources' fits the aforementioned
self-contradictory combination of both incredible craftiness and incredible
stupidity, which doesn't look realistic to me.
the kgb was set up under socialist standards of 'competence' and
'honesty'

the only thing surprising is that you should be so 'shocked'...

but then being 'shocked' for money is a common exhibit....
--
www.abelard.org
The Todal
2018-03-16 10:23:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Post by Pelican
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Pelican
< propaganda snipped >
Post by Oleg Smirnov
It rather looks like the organizer of the poisoning intentionally
sought to make the incident impressive for public in order to
prodice noise and alarm and thus urge the politicians - or give them
a pretext - "to do something about that", and so the question is
whether it was a shadowy third party or certain elements within the
British/Atlanticist 'deep state'.
No, it was just the usual Russian incompetence in execution.
Since you mention it, if it was the Russians, why didn't they just shoot
him? If you have a silenced pistol, it must be incredibly easy to kill a
private citizen who is not being constantly guarded by professionals.
It also has the advantage of not suggesting the nationality of the
perpetrators ... Oh, hang on.
Like the Russian invasions of the Crimea/eastern Ukraine, with the
military uniforms saying "Not Russian! Honest!!".  From the Arthur
Daley
school of international relations.
There's no 'Russian invasion' in East Ukraine, while those 'polite
men' in Crimea fulfilled a positive task of preventing violence and
hooliganism before holding the popular referendum.
How can it be comparable with a pointless assassination?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk
Suitcase spy poisoning plotNerve agent 'was planted in luggage of Sergei
Skripal's daughter'
The nerve agent that poisoned the Russian spy Sergei Skripal was planted in
his daughter's suitcase before she left Moscow, intelligence agencies now
believe.
Senior sources have told the Telegraph they are convinced the Novichok nerve
agent was hidden in the luggage of Yulia Skripal, the double agent's
33-year-old daughter.
They are working on the theory that the toxin was impregnated in an item of
clothing or cosmetics or else in a gift that was opened in his house in
Salisbury, meaning Miss Skripal was deliberately targeted to get at her
father.
The US 'intelligence agencies' believe (have a 'consensus opinion', so that
no one personally could be held responsible) that 'Russia' meddled in their
election, but when it comes to specifics there are 13 shoddy amateurs only.
But even if what the UK intelligence agencies believe is true, then I
wonder what might happen if she suddenly decided to unpack the suitcase
somewhere on
the way. There might also be a customs examination or occasional damage
of the luggage. Those stupid Putin's operatives don't seem to give a
shit about such possibilities and don't care if it killed a lot of
random people.
So far, everything issued by the British 'sources' fits the aforementioned
self-contradictory combination of both incredible craftiness and incredible
stupidity, which doesn't look realistic to me.
Go on, Oleg, what's your theory?

You think maybe a poison cloud leaked from Porton Down and found its way
unerringly to a couple of Russians in a branch of Zizzi?

Or maybe MI5 or MI6 wanted them dead and decided to use a rare nerve
poison so as to cause the maximum alarm and fuss?

Or maybe Mr Skripal had upset someone in the local community, perhaps by
parking his car in a way that blocked someone in, and they decided to
revenge themselves by buying some nerve agent on the internet and
smearing it on his car door?

No, there must be a better theory. Maybe the British Government decided
to pick a fight with President Putin by fabricating the entire story?
Perhaps the two Russians were drug addicts who overdosed on Fentanyl, as
per the first reports, and Theresa May spotted an opportunity to be
nasty to the Russians. Because she thought it would help her win the
council elections. That must be it.
Oleg Smirnov
2018-03-16 10:50:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Todal
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Post by Pelican
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Pelican
Post by Oleg Smirnov
It rather looks like the organizer of the poisoning intentionally
sought to make the incident impressive for public in order to
prodice noise and alarm and thus urge the politicians - or give them
a pretext - "to do something about that", and so the question is
whether it was a shadowy third party or certain elements within the
British/Atlanticist 'deep state'.
No, it was just the usual Russian incompetence in execution.
Since you mention it, if it was the Russians, why didn't they just
shoot him? If you have a silenced pistol, it must be incredibly easy
to kill a private citizen who is not being constantly guarded by
professionals.
It also has the advantage of not suggesting the nationality of the
perpetrators ... Oh, hang on.
Like the Russian invasions of the Crimea/eastern Ukraine, with the
military uniforms saying "Not Russian! Honest!!". From the Arthur
Daley school of international relations.
There's no 'Russian invasion' in East Ukraine, while those 'polite
men' in Crimea fulfilled a positive task of preventing violence and
hooliganism before holding the popular referendum.
How can it be comparable with a pointless assassination?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk
Suitcase spy poisoning plotNerve agent 'was planted in luggage of Sergei
Skripal's daughter'
The nerve agent that poisoned the Russian spy Sergei Skripal was planted in
his daughter's suitcase before she left Moscow, intelligence agencies now
believe.
Senior sources have told the Telegraph they are convinced the Novichok nerve
agent was hidden in the luggage of Yulia Skripal, the double agent's
33-year-old daughter.
They are working on the theory that the toxin was impregnated in an item of
clothing or cosmetics or else in a gift that was opened in his house in
Salisbury, meaning Miss Skripal was deliberately targeted to get at her
father.
The US 'intelligence agencies' believe (have a 'consensus opinion', so that
no one personally could be held responsible) that 'Russia' meddled in their
election, but when it comes to specifics there are 13 shoddy amateurs only.
But even if what the UK intelligence agencies believe is true, then I
wonder what might happen if she suddenly decided to unpack the suitcase
somewhere on the way. There might also be a customs examination or
occasional damage of the luggage. Those stupid Putin's operatives don't
seem to give a shit about such possibilities and don't care if it killed
a lot of random people.
So far, everything issued by the British 'sources' fits the aforementioned
self-contradictory combination of both incredible craftiness and incredible
stupidity, which doesn't look realistic to me.
Go on, Oleg, what's your theory?
You think maybe a poison cloud leaked from Porton Down and found its way
unerringly to a couple of Russians in a branch of Zizzi?
Or maybe MI5 or MI6 wanted them dead and decided to use a rare nerve
poison so as to cause the maximum alarm and fuss?
Or maybe Mr Skripal had upset someone in the local community, perhaps by
parking his car in a way that blocked someone in, and they decided to
revenge themselves by buying some nerve agent on the internet and
smearing it on his car door?
No, there must be a better theory. Maybe the British Government decided
to pick a fight with President Putin by fabricating the entire story?
Perhaps the two Russians were drug addicts who overdosed on Fentanyl, as
per the first reports, and Theresa May spotted an opportunity to be
nasty to the Russians. Because she thought it would help her win the
council elections. That must be it.
My theory is at the very top of this very message. Generally, I don't
believe that the goal of the organizers was to kill or harm the Skripals
as such. I believe the main goal was to produce a public response. As it
has said above, the best way to kill a non-guarded person is to use a
noiseless pistol (or a sniper rifle etc). Exotic toxins might be relevant
if it's about a well-guarded and/or very cautious person who is hard to
get close to.

Next is the question who might be interested to produce a public outcry.

I can't exclude the possibility that an interested party might locate in
Russia, but it hardly might be 'Putin', and it still seems more likely to
me that the interested party is ouside Russia.
Norman Wells
2018-03-16 13:29:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Oleg Smirnov
I can't exclude the possibility that an interested party might locate in
Russia, but it hardly might be 'Putin', and it still seems more likely
to me that the interested party is ouside Russia.
Who? How? Why?
Oleg Smirnov
2018-03-16 23:29:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Oleg Smirnov
I can't exclude the possibility that an interested party might locate in
Russia, but it hardly might be 'Putin', and it still seems more likely
to me that the interested party is ouside Russia.
Who? How? Why?
<https://tinyurl.com/ybw2624u>
george152
2018-03-16 19:50:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
There's no 'Russian invasion' in East Ukraine, while those 'polite men'
in Crimea fulfilled a positive task of preventing violence and
hooliganism before holding the popular referendum.
More propaganda and boy, I thought the west could do fake news but
you've got them beat

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
george152
2018-03-16 19:49:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Pelican
Like the Russian invasions of the Crimea/eastern Ukraine, with the
military uniforms saying "Not Russian! Honest!!".  From the Arthur Daley
school of international relations.
There are so many gullible posters in here.
Or disinformation posters working for a certain country.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
harry
2018-03-16 09:25:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Pelican
< propaganda snipped >
Post by Oleg Smirnov
It rather looks like the organizer of the poisoning intentionally
sought to make the incident impressive for public in order to prodice
noise and alarm and thus urge the politicians - or give them a
pretext - "to do something about that", and so the question is
whether it was a shadowy third party or certain elements within the
British/Atlanticist 'deep state'.
No, it was just the usual Russian incompetence in execution.
Since you mention it, if it was the Russians, why didn't they just shoot
him? If you have a silenced pistol, it must be incredibly easy to kill a
private citizen who is not being constantly guarded by professionals.
It also has the advantage of not suggesting the nationality of the
perpetrators ... Oh, hang on.
The perpetrators thought that the cause of death would never be discovered.
Put down to heart attack or similar.
Handsome Jack
2018-03-16 09:38:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by harry
Post by Handsome Jack
Since you mention it, if it was the Russians, why didn't they just shoot
him? If you have a silenced pistol, it must be incredibly easy to kill a
private citizen who is not being constantly guarded by professionals.
It also has the advantage of not suggesting the nationality of the
perpetrators ... Oh, hang on.
The perpetrators thought that the cause of death would never be discovered.
Put down to heart attack or similar.
Do you reckon the symptoms of nerve agent poisoning, and their
manifestations in an autopsy, are similar to those of a heart attack 'or
something'?
--
Jack
Fredxx
2018-03-16 09:48:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by harry
Post by Handsome Jack
Since you mention it, if it was the Russians, why didn't they just shoot
him? If you have a silenced pistol, it must be incredibly easy to kill a
private citizen who is not being constantly guarded by professionals.
It also has the advantage of not suggesting the nationality of the
perpetrators ... Oh, hang on.
The perpetrators thought that the cause of death would never be discovered.
Put down to heart attack or similar.
Do you reckon the symptoms of nerve agent poisoning, and their
manifestations in an autopsy, are similar to those of a heart attack 'or
something'?
Can you provide evidence that's not the case?

Would a nerve agent stop the heart causing hypoxia?
Ophelia
2018-03-16 09:40:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Pelican
< propaganda snipped >
Post by Oleg Smirnov
It rather looks like the organizer of the poisoning intentionally
sought to make the incident impressive for public in order to prodice
noise and alarm and thus urge the politicians - or give them a
pretext - "to do something about that", and so the question is
whether it was a shadowy third party or certain elements within the
British/Atlanticist 'deep state'.
No, it was just the usual Russian incompetence in execution.
Since you mention it, if it was the Russians, why didn't they just shoot
him? If you have a silenced pistol, it must be incredibly easy to kill a
private citizen who is not being constantly guarded by professionals.
It also has the advantage of not suggesting the nationality of the
perpetrators ... Oh, hang on.
The perpetrators thought that the cause of death would never be discovered.
Put down to heart attack or similar.

==

Had his daughter not been affected it probably would have been.
Oleg Smirnov
2018-03-16 07:29:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
<http://tinyurl.com/y8wxqmyu> craigmurray.org.uk

Bothered By Midgies

Craig Murray | 15 Mar, 2018

In 13 years of running my blog I have never been exposed to such a tirade
of abuse as I have for refusing to accept without evidence that Russia is
the only possible culprit for the Salisbury attack. The abuse has mostly
been on twitter, and much of the most venomous stuff has come from
corporate and state media "journalists". I suppose I am a standing rebuke
to them for merely being stenographers to power and never doing any actual
research, but that hardly explains the visceral levels of hatred exhibited.

Today they are all terrifically happy and sharing amongst themselves a
lengthy twitter thread by a Blairite and chemist called Clyde Davis in
which they all say I am "owned" ..

Read it in full <http://tinyurl.com/y8wxqmyu>

...

Jingoism is an ugly thinhg. It makes reasonable people zombies. The British
one looks peculiar, which, I think, has something to do with the islandness
(and in this regard the Brits somewhat similar to the Japaneze).

The above article continues the Skripal-related discussion.
<http://tinyurl.com/yc4kzap6>
Russian Agents Are Whacking People in London Right, Left, and Center ..
harry
2018-03-16 09:27:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Oleg Smirnov
<http://tinyurl.com/y8wxqmyu> craigmurray.org.uk
Bothered By Midgies
Craig Murray | 15 Mar, 2018
In 13 years of running my blog I have never been exposed to such a tirade
of abuse as I have for refusing to accept without evidence that Russia is
the only possible culprit for the Salisbury attack. The abuse has mostly
been on twitter, and much of the most venomous stuff has come from
corporate and state media "journalists". I suppose I am a standing rebuke
to them for merely being stenographers to power and never doing any actual
research, but that hardly explains the visceral levels of hatred exhibited.
Today they are all terrifically happy and sharing amongst themselves a
lengthy twitter thread by a Blairite and chemist called Clyde Davis in
which they all say I am "owned" ..
Read it in full <http://tinyurl.com/y8wxqmyu>
...
Jingoism is an ugly thinhg. It makes reasonable people zombies. The British
one looks peculiar, which, I think, has something to do with the islandness
(and in this regard the Brits somewhat similar to the Japaneze).
The above article continues the Skripal-related discussion.
<http://tinyurl.com/yc4kzap6>
Russian Agents Are Whacking People in London Right, Left, and Center ..
Nobody is more zombylike then Russians.
Brainwashed from childhood.
Oleg Smirnov
2018-03-16 09:34:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by harry
Post by Oleg Smirnov
<http://tinyurl.com/y8wxqmyu> craigmurray.org.uk
Bothered By Midgies
Craig Murray | 15 Mar, 2018
In 13 years of running my blog I have never been exposed to such a tirade
of abuse as I have for refusing to accept without evidence that Russia is
the only possible culprit for the Salisbury attack. The abuse has mostly
been on twitter, and much of the most venomous stuff has come from
corporate and state media "journalists". I suppose I am a standing rebuke
to them for merely being stenographers to power and never doing any actual
research, but that hardly explains the visceral levels of hatred exhibited.
Today they are all terrifically happy and sharing amongst themselves a
lengthy twitter thread by a Blairite and chemist called Clyde Davis in
which they all say I am "owned" ..
Read it in full <http://tinyurl.com/y8wxqmyu>
...
Jingoism is an ugly thinhg. It makes reasonable people zombies. The British
one looks peculiar, which, I think, has something to do with the islandness
(and in this regard the Brits somewhat similar to the Japaneze).
The above article continues the Skripal-related discussion.
<http://tinyurl.com/yc4kzap6>
Russian Agents Are Whacking People in London Right, Left, and Center ..
Nobody is more zombylike then Russians.
Brainwashed from childhood.
If you're not a zombie then you're welcome not
only to express your delusional hateful attitudes
but also discuss specific facts and reasons.
Fredxx
2018-03-16 09:50:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by harry
Post by Oleg Smirnov
<http://tinyurl.com/y8wxqmyu> craigmurray.org.uk
Bothered By Midgies
Craig Murray | 15 Mar, 2018
In 13 years of running my blog I have never been exposed to such a tirade
of abuse as I have for refusing to accept without evidence that Russia is
the only possible culprit for the Salisbury attack. The abuse has mostly
been on twitter, and much of the most venomous stuff has come from
corporate and state media "journalists". I suppose I am a standing rebuke
to them for merely being stenographers to power and never doing any actual
research, but that hardly explains the visceral levels of hatred exhibited.
Today they are all terrifically happy and sharing amongst themselves a
lengthy twitter thread by a Blairite and chemist called Clyde Davis in
which they all say I am "owned" ..
Read it in full <http://tinyurl.com/y8wxqmyu>
...
Jingoism is an ugly thinhg. It makes reasonable people zombies. The British
one looks peculiar, which, I think, has something to do with the islandness
(and in this regard the Brits somewhat similar to the Japaneze).
The above article continues the Skripal-related discussion.
<http://tinyurl.com/yc4kzap6>
Russian Agents Are Whacking People in London Right, Left, and Center ..
Nobody is more zombylike then Russians.
Brainwashed from childhood.
You come across as having a closed mind to many things.

You're more a zombie than any of the Russians I've met.
The Todal
2018-03-16 10:31:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fredxx
Post by harry
Post by Oleg Smirnov
<http://tinyurl.com/y8wxqmyu> craigmurray.org.uk
Bothered By Midgies
Craig Murray | 15 Mar, 2018
In 13 years of running my blog I have never been exposed to such a tirade
of abuse as I have for refusing to accept without evidence that Russia is
the only possible culprit for the Salisbury attack. The abuse has mostly
been on twitter, and much of the most venomous stuff has come from
corporate and state media "journalists". I suppose I am a standing rebuke
to them for merely being stenographers to power and never doing any actual
research, but that hardly explains the visceral levels of hatred exhibited.
Today they are all terrifically happy and sharing amongst themselves a
lengthy twitter thread by a Blairite and chemist called Clyde Davis in
which they all say I am "owned" ..
   Read it in full <http://tinyurl.com/y8wxqmyu>
...
Jingoism is an ugly thinhg. It makes reasonable people zombies. The British
one looks peculiar, which, I think, has something to do with the islandness
(and in this regard the Brits somewhat similar to the Japaneze).
The above article continues the Skripal-related discussion.
<http://tinyurl.com/yc4kzap6>
Russian Agents Are Whacking People in London Right, Left, and Center ..
Nobody is more zombylike then Russians.
Brainwashed from childhood.
You come across as having a closed mind to many things.
You're more a zombie than any of the Russians I've met.
The Russians are currently in the process of holding a Presidential
Election.

Unfortunately the outcome is a foregone conclusion. There's no need for
any opinion polls. The candidates who are standing against Putin are
simply not credible. So even if Putin is a murderer and a gangster,
there's nobody else worth voting for. Here's the BBC analysis:

Quote

The Kremlin's aim is thought to be to create the appearance of a
colourful, lively contest to boost voter engagement, without any actual
threat to Mr Putin's power:

Liberal Ksenia Sobchak is likely to have put large swathes of the
electorate off with her outspoken rejection of Russia's annexation of
Crimea, her former showbiz image, which at times was risqué, as well as
- in a deeply conservative country - her gender.

Communist Party candidate Pavel Grudinin has avoided criticising Mr
Putin while facing relentless attacks from state media over his business
dealings.

Veteran politician Vladimir Zhirinovsky, known for his aggressive
nationalist rhetoric, is seen by many as a figure of fun.

Election debates have often descended into undignified slanging matches,
while Mr Putin has stayed above the fray by not attending.

The image towering over the election is that of President Putin as the
saviour and unifier of Russia, and the man protecting a country under
siege from an allegedly hostile West.

A key part of this is Russia's annexation of Crimea from Ukraine in
2014, which has since been used by the Kremlin as part of an effort to
mobilise Russians behind it using nationalism.

Flattering reporting on Mr Putin has dominated news programmes on
national state-controlled TV - many Russians' main source of news -
despite electoral rules in theory requiring strict impartiality between
candidates.

TV officials insist they are merely covering Mr Putin's activities as
president but the overall impression is of a national hero who dwarfs
the other candidates and their squabbles.

Russia's main opposition figure, Alexei Navalny, is barred from standing
by a fraud conviction he calls politically motivated. State TV does not
cover Mr Navalny's activities while Mr Putin refuses to call him by
name, and has suggested he is a front for a Western-funded effort to
destabilise and weaken Russia.
abelard
2018-03-16 10:10:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Oleg Smirnov
<http://tinyurl.com/y8wxqmyu> craigmurray.org.uk
Bothered By Midgies
Craig Murray | 15 Mar, 2018
In 13 years of running my blog I have never been exposed to such a tirade
of abuse as I have for refusing to accept without evidence that Russia is
the only possible culprit for the Salisbury attack.
must be very trying...a good job no responsible person has said that..

the word used is 'source', not 'culprit'

i'm delighted to see pootin working overtime to cooperate with western
agencies just as he did with polonium 210

who the hell is 'craig murray'?
Post by Oleg Smirnov
The abuse has mostly
been on twitter, and much of the most venomous stuff has come from
corporate and state media "journalists". I suppose I am a standing rebuke
to them for merely being stenographers to power and never doing any actual
research, but that hardly explains the visceral levels of hatred exhibited.
Today they are all terrifically happy and sharing amongst themselves a
lengthy twitter thread by a Blairite and chemist called Clyde Davis in
which they all say I am "owned" ..
Read it in full <http://tinyurl.com/y8wxqmyu>
...
Jingoism is an ugly thinhg. It makes reasonable people zombies. The British
one looks peculiar, which, I think, has something to do with the islandness
(and in this regard the Brits somewhat similar to the Japaneze).
The above article continues the Skripal-related discussion.
<http://tinyurl.com/yc4kzap6>
Russian Agents Are Whacking People in London Right, Left, and Center ..
--
www.abelard.org
johnny-knowall
2018-03-16 10:29:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by abelard
Post by Oleg Smirnov
<http://tinyurl.com/y8wxqmyu> craigmurray.org.uk
Bothered By Midgies
Craig Murray | 15 Mar, 2018
In 13 years of running my blog I have never been exposed to such a tirade
of abuse as I have for refusing to accept without evidence that Russia is
the only possible culprit for the Salisbury attack.
must be very trying...a good job no responsible person has said that..
the word used is 'source', not 'culprit'
i'm delighted to see pootin working overtime to cooperate with western
agencies just as he did with polonium 210
who the hell is 'craig murray'?
Don’t attempt to be so ignorant. Lying doesn’t suit you.

You know perfectly well who he is.
Post by abelard
Post by Oleg Smirnov
The abuse has mostly
been on twitter, and much of the most venomous stuff has come from
corporate and state media "journalists". I suppose I am a standing rebuke
to them for merely being stenographers to power and never doing any actual
research, but that hardly explains the visceral levels of hatred exhibited.
Today they are all terrifically happy and sharing amongst themselves a
lengthy twitter thread by a Blairite and chemist called Clyde Davis in
which they all say I am "owned" ..
Read it in full <http://tinyurl.com/y8wxqmyu>
...
Jingoism is an ugly thinhg. It makes reasonable people zombies. The British
one looks peculiar, which, I think, has something to do with the islandness
(and in this regard the Brits somewhat similar to the Japaneze).
The above article continues the Skripal-related discussion.
<http://tinyurl.com/yc4kzap6>
Russian Agents Are Whacking People in London Right, Left, and Center ..
abelard
2018-03-16 10:32:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by abelard
Post by Oleg Smirnov
<http://tinyurl.com/y8wxqmyu> craigmurray.org.uk
Bothered By Midgies
Craig Murray | 15 Mar, 2018
In 13 years of running my blog I have never been exposed to such a tirade
of abuse as I have for refusing to accept without evidence that Russia is
the only possible culprit for the Salisbury attack.
must be very trying...a good job no responsible person has said that..
the word used is 'source', not 'culprit'
i'm delighted to see pootin working overtime to cooperate with western
agencies just as he did with polonium 210
who the hell is 'craig murray'?
Don’t attempt to be so ignorant. Lying doesn’t suit you.
You know perfectly well who he is.
wrong again mister noall
--
www.abelard.org
johnny-knowall
2018-03-16 10:38:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by abelard
Post by johnny-knowall
Post by abelard
Post by Oleg Smirnov
<http://tinyurl.com/y8wxqmyu> craigmurray.org.uk
Bothered By Midgies
Craig Murray | 15 Mar, 2018
In 13 years of running my blog I have never been exposed to such a tirade
of abuse as I have for refusing to accept without evidence that Russia is
the only possible culprit for the Salisbury attack.
must be very trying...a good job no responsible person has said that..
the word used is 'source', not 'culprit'
i'm delighted to see pootin working overtime to cooperate with western
agencies just as he did with polonium 210
who the hell is 'craig murray'?
Don’t attempt to be so ignorant. Lying doesn’t suit you.
You know perfectly well who he is.
wrong again mister noall
He used to be the British Ambassador to Uzbekistan.
The Todal
2018-03-16 10:51:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by johnny-knowall
Post by abelard
Post by johnny-knowall
Post by abelard
Post by Oleg Smirnov
<http://tinyurl.com/y8wxqmyu> craigmurray.org.uk
Bothered By Midgies
Craig Murray | 15 Mar, 2018
In 13 years of running my blog I have never been exposed to such a tirade
of abuse as I have for refusing to accept without evidence that Russia is
the only possible culprit for the Salisbury attack.
must be very trying...a good job no responsible person has said that..
the word used is 'source', not 'culprit'
i'm delighted to see pootin working overtime to cooperate with western
agencies just as he did with polonium 210
who the hell is 'craig murray'?
Don’t attempt to be so ignorant. Lying doesn’t suit you.
You know perfectly well who he is.
wrong again mister noall
He used to be the British Ambassador to Uzbekistan.
And?

He was sacked, probably unfairly. He has a grudge against the government.
abelard
2018-03-16 11:00:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by johnny-knowall
Post by abelard
Post by abelard
Post by Oleg Smirnov
<http://tinyurl.com/y8wxqmyu> craigmurray.org.uk
Bothered By Midgies
Craig Murray | 15 Mar, 2018
In 13 years of running my blog I have never been exposed to such a tirade
of abuse as I have for refusing to accept without evidence that Russia is
the only possible culprit for the Salisbury attack.
must be very trying...a good job no responsible person has said that..
the word used is 'source', not 'culprit'
i'm delighted to see pootin working overtime to cooperate with western
agencies just as he did with polonium 210
who the hell is 'craig murray'?
Don’t attempt to be so ignorant. Lying doesn’t suit you.
You know perfectly well who he is.
wrong again mister noall
He used to be the British Ambassador to Uzbekistan.
ok...

he seems to be leading a 'colourful' life....

how does uzbekistan get into the picture?
--
www.abelard.org
johnny-knowall
2018-03-16 11:13:39 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by abelard
Post by johnny-knowall
Post by abelard
Post by johnny-knowall
Post by abelard
Post by Oleg Smirnov
<http://tinyurl.com/y8wxqmyu> craigmurray.org.uk
Bothered By Midgies
Craig Murray | 15 Mar, 2018
In 13 years of running my blog I have never been exposed to such a
tirade
of abuse as I have for refusing to accept without evidence that Russia
is
the only possible culprit for the Salisbury attack.
must be very trying...a good job no responsible person has said that..
the word used is 'source', not 'culprit'
i'm delighted to see pootin working overtime to cooperate with western
agencies just as he did with polonium 210
who the hell is 'craig murray'?
Don’t attempt to be so ignorant. Lying doesn’t suit you.
You know perfectly well who he is.
wrong again mister noall
He used to be the British Ambassador to Uzbekistan.
ok...
he seems to be leading a 'colourful' life....
how does uzbekistan get into the picture?
I learned that research on Novichok had begun in 1987, even as the Soviet
Union said it would unilaterally halt all its chemical-weapons programs. It
had been developed at the institute and tested in a place called Shikhani, in
southeastern Russia, and in the Nukus region of Uzbekistan. I spoke to one
scientist, Andrei Zheleznyakov, who had been exposed to a minute amount of
Novichok in a lab accident five years prior. He staggered out after the
mishap, his vision, as I wrote, “seared by brilliant colors and
hallucinations.” Zheleznyakov never fully recovered, and he died shortly
after I interviewed him.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/03/12/what-is-novichok-
the-russian-nerve-agent-and-the-scientist-who-revealed-
it/?utm_term=.2c76750b6bb9
abelard
2018-03-16 11:22:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by johnny-knowall
Post by abelard
Post by johnny-knowall
Post by abelard
Post by abelard
Post by Oleg Smirnov
<http://tinyurl.com/y8wxqmyu> craigmurray.org.uk
Bothered By Midgies
Craig Murray | 15 Mar, 2018
In 13 years of running my blog I have never been exposed to such a
tirade
of abuse as I have for refusing to accept without evidence that Russia
is
the only possible culprit for the Salisbury attack.
must be very trying...a good job no responsible person has said that..
the word used is 'source', not 'culprit'
i'm delighted to see pootin working overtime to cooperate with western
agencies just as he did with polonium 210
who the hell is 'craig murray'?
Don’t attempt to be so ignorant. Lying doesn’t suit you.
You know perfectly well who he is.
wrong again mister noall
He used to be the British Ambassador to Uzbekistan.
ok...
he seems to be leading a 'colourful' life....
how does uzbekistan get into the picture?
I learned that research on Novichok had begun in 1987, even as the Soviet
Union said it would unilaterally halt all its chemical-weapons programs. It
had been developed at the institute and tested in a place called Shikhani, in
southeastern Russia, and in the Nukus region of Uzbekistan.
shikhani is nice and specific and in accord with accepted data

'the nukus region of uzbekitan' is suitably vague and unsupported in
alleged data sources i've seen so far
Post by johnny-knowall
I spoke to one
scientist, Andrei Zheleznyakov, who had been exposed to a minute amount of
Novichok in a lab accident five years prior. He staggered out after the
mishap, his vision, as I wrote, “seared by brilliant colors and
hallucinations.” Zheleznyakov never fully recovered, and he died shortly
after I interviewed him.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/03/12/what-is-novichok-
the-russian-nerve-agent-and-the-scientist-who-revealed-
it/?utm_term=.2c76750b6bb9
--
www.abelard.org
johnny-knowall
2018-03-16 12:05:27 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by abelard
Post by johnny-knowall
Post by abelard
Post by johnny-knowall
Post by abelard
Post by johnny-knowall
Post by abelard
Post by Oleg Smirnov
<http://tinyurl.com/y8wxqmyu> craigmurray.org.uk
Bothered By Midgies
Craig Murray | 15 Mar, 2018
In 13 years of running my blog I have never been exposed to such a
tirade
of abuse as I have for refusing to accept without evidence that Russia
is
the only possible culprit for the Salisbury attack.
must be very trying...a good job no responsible person has said that..
the word used is 'source', not 'culprit'
i'm delighted to see pootin working overtime to cooperate with western
agencies just as he did with polonium 210
who the hell is 'craig murray'?
Don’t attempt to be so ignorant. Lying doesn’t suit you.
You know perfectly well who he is.
wrong again mister noall
He used to be the British Ambassador to Uzbekistan.
ok...
he seems to be leading a 'colourful' life....
how does uzbekistan get into the picture?
I learned that research on Novichok had begun in 1987, even as the Soviet
Union said it would unilaterally halt all its chemical-weapons programs. It
had been developed at the institute and tested in a place called Shikhani, in
southeastern Russia, and in the Nukus region of Uzbekistan.
shikhani is nice and specific and in accord with accepted data
'the nukus region of uzbekitan' is suitably vague and unsupported in
alleged data sources i've seen so far
How convenient for you.

Gadafy might have had some Novichok production in Libya, and the security
people were all over that country once they realised embarrassing western
secrets might get into journalists’ hands.

It is a bit ironic that the one place Novichok is unlikely to have come from
is Saddam’s facility in Iraq; mainly because Bliar and Bush told us he
definitely had similar stuff ready to hit us in 45 minutes.

Given that track record of blatant lies, we ought to be thinking the
countries we are told it has come from as the least likely candidates.
Post by abelard
Post by johnny-knowall
I spoke to one
scientist, Andrei Zheleznyakov, who had been exposed to a minute amount of
Novichok in a lab accident five years prior. He staggered out after the
mishap, his vision, as I wrote, “seared by brilliant colors and
hallucinations.” Zheleznyakov never fully recovered, and he died shortly
after I interviewed him.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/03/12/what-is-novicho
k-
the-russian-nerve-agent-and-the-scientist-who-revealed-
it/?utm_term=.2c76750b6bb9
abelard
2018-03-16 12:14:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by johnny-knowall
Post by abelard
Post by johnny-knowall
I learned that research on Novichok had begun in 1987, even as the Soviet
Union said it would unilaterally halt all its chemical-weapons programs. It
had been developed at the institute and tested in a place called Shikhani, in
southeastern Russia, and in the Nukus region of Uzbekistan.
shikhani is nice and specific and in accord with accepted data
'the nukus region of uzbekitan' is suitably vague and unsupported in
alleged data sources i've seen so far
How convenient for you.
i s'pose you mean your conspiracy theories is painfully short of
useful support
Post by johnny-knowall
Gadafy might have had some Novichok production in Libya,
and pigs might fly

your vague 'mays' are not of any evidential use
Post by johnny-knowall
and the security
people were all over that country once they realised embarrassing western
secrets might get into journalists’ hands.
It is a bit ironic that the one place Novichok is unlikely to have come from
is Saddam’s facility in Iraq; mainly because Bliar and Bush told us he
definitely had similar stuff ready to hit us in 45 minutes.
god knows why you care about what is 'unlikely'
Post by johnny-knowall
Given that track record of blatant lies, we ought to be thinking the
countries we are told it has come from as the least likely candidates.
you're not making any sense...your comments wouldn't even pass
muster in a novel...
--
www.abelard.org
johnny-knowall
2018-03-16 12:45:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by abelard
Post by johnny-knowall
Post by abelard
Post by johnny-knowall
I learned that research on Novichok had begun in 1987, even as the Soviet
Union said it would unilaterally halt all its chemical-weapons programs. It
had been developed at the institute and tested in a place called Shikhani, in
southeastern Russia, and in the Nukus region of Uzbekistan.
shikhani is nice and specific and in accord with accepted data
'the nukus region of uzbekitan' is suitably vague and unsupported in
alleged data sources i've seen so far
How convenient for you.
i s'pose you mean your conspiracy theories is painfully short of
useful support
Post by johnny-knowall
Gadafy might have had some Novichok production in Libya,
and pigs might fly
your vague 'mays' are not of any evidential use
You didn’t mention this to May when she said in the HoC that Russian
involvement was only “highly likely”.

Why is she allowed to be vague and I am not?

Do you secretly fancy our Theresa, and are blinded by lust?
Post by abelard
Post by johnny-knowall
and the security
people were all over that country once they realised embarrassing western
secrets might get into journalists’ hands.
It is a bit ironic that the one place Novichok is unlikely to have come from
is Saddam’s facility in Iraq; mainly because Bliar and Bush told us he
definitely had similar stuff ready to hit us in 45 minutes.
god knows why you care about what is 'unlikely'
Post by johnny-knowall
Given that track record of blatant lies, we ought to be thinking the
countries we are told it has come from as the least likely candidates.
you're not making any sense...your comments wouldn't even pass
muster in a novel...
abelard
2018-03-16 12:51:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by abelard
Post by johnny-knowall
Post by abelard
Post by johnny-knowall
I learned that research on Novichok had begun in 1987, even as the Soviet
Union said it would unilaterally halt all its chemical-weapons programs. It
had been developed at the institute and tested in a place called Shikhani, in
southeastern Russia, and in the Nukus region of Uzbekistan.
shikhani is nice and specific and in accord with accepted data
'the nukus region of uzbekitan' is suitably vague and unsupported in
alleged data sources i've seen so far
How convenient for you.
i s'pose you mean your conspiracy theories is painfully short of
useful support
Post by johnny-knowall
Gadafy might have had some Novichok production in Libya,
and pigs might fly
your vague 'mays' are not of any evidential use
You didn’t mention this to May when she said in the HoC that Russian
involvement was only “highly likely”.
because i regard 'highly likely' as reasonable
Why is she allowed to be vague and I am not?
Do you secretly fancy our Theresa, and are blinded by lust?
don't be daft...i'd be in love with you if it wasn't
my preference for yaks

i see you are squirming again...which is meet
--
www.abelard.org
Oleg Smirnov
2018-03-16 11:19:10 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by abelard
Post by johnny-knowall
Post by abelard
Post by abelard
Post by Oleg Smirnov
<http://tinyurl.com/y8wxqmyu> craigmurray.org.uk
Bothered By Midgies
Craig Murray | 15 Mar, 2018
In 13 years of running my blog I have never been exposed to such a tirade
of abuse as I have for refusing to accept without evidence that Russia is
the only possible culprit for the Salisbury attack.
must be very trying...a good job no responsible person has said that..
the word used is 'source', not 'culprit'
i'm delighted to see pootin working overtime to cooperate with western
agencies just as he did with polonium 210
who the hell is 'craig murray'?
Don't attempt to be so ignorant. Lying doesn't suit you.
You know perfectly well who he is.
wrong again mister noall
He used to be the British Ambassador to Uzbekistan.
ok...
he seems to be leading a 'colourful' life....
how does uzbekistan get into the picture?
The man grasps the post-Soviet environment better than you might
learn from the shoddy press (although, I can't say that he fully
grasps it, but still an order of magnitude better than you do).
abelard
2018-03-16 11:24:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Post by abelard
Post by johnny-knowall
Post by abelard
Post by abelard
Post by Oleg Smirnov
<http://tinyurl.com/y8wxqmyu> craigmurray.org.uk
Bothered By Midgies
Craig Murray | 15 Mar, 2018
In 13 years of running my blog I have never been exposed to such a tirade
of abuse as I have for refusing to accept without evidence that Russia is
the only possible culprit for the Salisbury attack.
must be very trying...a good job no responsible person has said that..
the word used is 'source', not 'culprit'
i'm delighted to see pootin working overtime to cooperate with western
agencies just as he did with polonium 210
who the hell is 'craig murray'?
Don't attempt to be so ignorant. Lying doesn't suit you.
You know perfectly well who he is.
wrong again mister noall
He used to be the British Ambassador to Uzbekistan.
ok...
he seems to be leading a 'colourful' life....
how does uzbekistan get into the picture?
The man grasps the post-Soviet environment better than you might
learn from the shoddy press (although, I can't say that he fully
grasps it, but still an order of magnitude better than you do).
you appear to be heavily driven by problems of confirmation bias

that does not encourage me to regard you as a reliable source
--
www.abelard.org
Oleg Smirnov
2018-03-16 22:57:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
<http://tinyurl.com/yckjjvrn> craigmurray.org.uk

Of A Type Developed By Liars

16 Mar, 2018

I have now received confirmation from a well placed FCO source that Porton
Down scientists are not able to identify the nerve gas as being of Russian
manufacture, and have been resentful of the pressure being placed on them
to do so. Porton Down would only sign up to the formulation "of a type
developed by Russia" after a rather difficult meeting where this was agreed
as a compromise formulation. .. Just as I am typing on a laptop of a type
developed by the United States, though this one was made in China. ..

Did you know these interesting facts?

OPCW inspectors have had full access to all known Russian chemical weapons
facilities for over a decade - including those identified by the "Novichok"
alleged whistleblower Mirzayanov - and last year OPCW inspectors completed
the destruction of the last of 40,000 tonnes of Russian chemical weapons

By contrast the programme of destruction of US chemical weapons stocks
still has five years to run

Israel <http://u.to/662GEQ> has extensive stocks of chemical weapons but
has always refused to declare any of them to the OPCW. Israel is not a
state party to the Chemical Weapons Convention nor a member of the OPCW.
Israel signed in 1993 but refused to ratify as this would mean inspection
and destruction of its chemical weapons. Israel undoubtedly has as much
technical capacity as any state to synthesise "Novichoks".

Until this week, the near universal belief among chemical weapons experts,
and the official position <http://clck.ru/CzHAa> of the OPCW, was that
"Novichoks" were at most a theoretical research programme which the Russians
had never succeeded in actually synthesising and manufacturing. That is why
they are not on the OPCW list of banned chemical weapons.

Porton Down is still not certain it is the Russians who have apparently
synthesised a "Novichok". Hence "Of a type developed by Russia". Note
developed, not made, produced or manufactured.

It is very carefully worded propaganda. Of a type developed by liars. ..

Read it in full <http://tinyurl.com/yckjjvrn>

...

It is true that "inspectors have had full access". In the 1990s, Russian
government gave the American and other 'western' representatives
unprecedented access and authority to inspect post-Soviet military research
and industry facilities. At that time, there were many naive illusions and
groundless hopes in Russia.
<http://tinyurl.com/yc4kzap6>
Russian Agents Are Whacking People in London Right, Left, and Center ..
george152
2018-03-17 03:19:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Oleg Smirnov
<http://tinyurl.com/yckjjvrn> craigmurray.org.uk
Of A Type Developed By Liars
16 Mar, 2018
I have now received confirmation from a well placed FCO source that
Porton Down scientists are not able to identify the nerve gas as being
of Russian manufacture, and have been resentful of the pressure being
placed on them to do so. Porton Down would only sign up to the
formulation "of a type developed by Russia" after a rather difficult
meeting where this was agreed as a compromise formulation. .. Just as I
am typing on a laptop of a type developed by the United States, though
this one was made in China. ..
Did you know these interesting facts?
OPCW inspectors have had full access to all known Russian chemical
weapons facilities for over a decade - including those identified by the
"Novichok" alleged whistleblower Mirzayanov - and last year OPCW
inspectors completed the destruction of the last of 40,000 tonnes of
Russian chemical weapons
By contrast the programme of destruction of US chemical weapons stocks
still has five years to run
Israel <http://u.to/662GEQ> has extensive stocks of chemical weapons but
has always refused to declare any of them to the OPCW. Israel is not a
state party to the Chemical Weapons Convention nor a member of the OPCW.
Israel signed in 1993 but refused to ratify as this would mean
inspection and destruction of its chemical weapons. Israel undoubtedly
has as much technical capacity as any state to synthesise "Novichoks".
Until this week, the near universal belief among chemical weapons
experts, and the official position <http://clck.ru/CzHAa> of the OPCW,
was that "Novichoks" were at most a theoretical research programme which
the Russians had never succeeded in actually synthesising and
manufacturing. That is why they are not on the OPCW list of banned
chemical weapons.
Porton Down is still not certain it is the Russians who have apparently
synthesised a "Novichok". Hence "Of a type developed by Russia". Note
developed, not made, produced or manufactured.
It is very carefully worded propaganda. Of a type developed by liars. ..
A Russian disinformation agent accuses others of lying

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Oleg Smirnov
2018-03-17 08:17:26 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Oleg Smirnov
<http://tinyurl.com/yckjjvrn> craigmurray.org.uk
I have now received confirmation from a well placed FCO source that Porton
Down scientists are not able to identify the nerve gas as being of Russian
manufacture, and have been resentful of the pressure being placed on them
to do so. Porton Down would only sign up to the formulation "of a type
developed by Russia" after a rather difficult meeting ..
<http://tinyurl.com/y8b3zd2x> off-guardian.org

UK's "novichok" claim exposed as lies ..

March 16, 2018

.. Such an admission from such a source is damning, and devastating for the
government's bid to create momentum for fresh international action against
Russia. ..

So, what do we currently know with reasonable certainty?

1. We can be fairly sure a man called Sergey Skripal really exists. He has a
well-documented history in Russia and in the UK prior to this event. We can
equally assume he had a wife who died in 2012, a son who died in Russia, and
a daughter called Yulia, who lives in Russia most of the time.

2. We can be fairly sure Yulia really was in Salisbury at the time of the
incident and has been unable to communicate with the outside world since
that time. If she had been in touch with friends/family in Russia they would
have said so and the Russian media would have broadcast the fact even if
ours didn't.

3. We can be fairly sure two people were found in a state of distress and
collapse on a public bench in Salisbury at the approximate time stated.
Occam's Razor would suggest it's most probable these two people were indeed
Sergey and Yulia Skripal, though with no photographic or film evidence that
remains simply an informed assumption.

4. We know that neither Skripal has made any public appearance or statement
since that time, and that they are currently alleged to be in Salisbury
hospital ICU suffering from the effects of a "nerve agent".

5. We know a local policeman, Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey, is also
alleged to be in the same hospital having been contaminated by the same
"nerve agent". How he came to be contaminated is still not clear, and two
conflicting stories have been promoted.

a)The first story was that Bailey became contaminated while visiting
Skripal's home.

b)A subsequent story emerged however that he had been one of the first on
the scene at the bench where the Skripal's were discovered, and had been
contaminated while trying to assist them.

Given the fact Bailey is allegedly a detective in the CID (Criminal
Investigation Department) and not a uniformed officer, the claim he was a
first responder on the scene seems to make little sense. CID detectives are
dispatched to investigate known crimes and crime scenes. They don't do
patrol duty and are not sent as emergency responders.

The first story that Bailey became contaminated while investigating the
Skripal home seems to fit better with the claim that he is an officer in
the CID. The change in narrative about this is currently unexplained.

Bailey's condition is variously reported as "serious" (Amber Rudd, March
10) and as improving (the Chief Constable for Wiltshire, March 8). There
has been no interview with Bailey or with any member of his family as yet,
though as of today Bailey's alleged father-in-law has allegedly come
forward to criticise Jeremy Corbyn for asking for evidence before blaming
Russia. No photographs of or filmed interviews with said father-in-law
have yet been published.

6. We know that almost immediately upon this incident occurring a media
campaign of almost unprecedented intensity began to generate what looked
like a pre-prepared story that the Skripals had been poisoned by Russia.
This claim has been "supported" by untruths and manipulations so
questionable even anonymous FCO sources are worried about the wisdom and
ethics on display. It has also been used to promote a number of agendas
including:

a) finally ditching Brexit (because being in the EU would allegedly
protect the UK from further "Russian aggression").

b) closing down RT in the UK

c) moving/postponing the World Cup

d) imposing fresh sanctions on Russia

e) giving Theresa May her "Falklands moment" in a bid to revive her tanking
popularity.

f) putting pressure on Trump to be more pro-active in condemning Russia.

7. We know Russia has completely denied any involvement in the Skripal
poisoning. And the lack of obvious motive for them to initiate such an
attack has been acknowledged even by members of the Uk establishment.

8. We know the UK has refused Russia's request to give them samples of the
alleged "novichok" for analysis. No specific reason for denying the request
has yet been given.

9. We know the UK has blocked Russia's Resolution in the UN calling for a
"co-operative international investigation in line with OPCW standards".
Again no specific reason or this obstruction has yet been given.

Clearly we currently are in no position to know what really happened to the
Skripals, how it happened, where it happened or who was responsible.

Just as clearly the government and media are lying.

In addition the media are trying to work up a jingoistic anti-Russia
hysteria that has no parallel in recent times. Not even the 2003 media
frenzy to get pubic opinion behind the illegal war on Iraq reached these
heights.

The obvious conclusion from this, if Russia were not a nuclear power, would
be that the British state machine is trying to prepare the people for war
with Russia. Unless the entire British government has lost its mind this
specific aim would seem unlikely. However that something fairly major in
terms of escalation in the "New Cold War" is being planned seems a
reasonable inference at this point.

It may well be that in future days or weeks Porton Down scientists will
announce they finally do have proof of Russia's involvement in creating
this still largely mythical "novichok".

We suggest taking any such future declaration with a great deal of
scepticism.

Read it in full <http://tinyurl.com/y8b3zd2x>

...
Post by Oleg Smirnov
<http://tinyurl.com/yc4kzap6>
Russian Agents Are Whacking People in London Right, Left, and Center ..
johnny-knowall
2018-03-17 08:51:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Oleg Smirnov
<http://tinyurl.com/yckjjvrn> craigmurray.org.uk
I have now received confirmation from a well placed FCO source that Porton
Down scientists are not able to identify the nerve gas as being of Russian
manufacture, and have been resentful of the pressure being placed on them
to do so. Porton Down would only sign up to the formulation "of a type
developed by Russia" after a rather difficult meeting ..
<http://tinyurl.com/y8b3zd2x> off-guardian.org
UK's "novichok" claim exposed as lies ..
March 16, 2018
.. Such an admission from such a source is damning, and devastating for the
government's bid to create momentum for fresh international action against
Russia. ..
So, what do we currently know with reasonable certainty?
1. We can be fairly sure a man called Sergey Skripal really exists. He has a
well-documented history in Russia and in the UK prior to this event. We can
equally assume he had a wife who died in 2012, a son who died in Russia, and
a daughter called Yulia, who lives in Russia most of the time.
2. We can be fairly sure Yulia really was in Salisbury at the time of the
incident and has been unable to communicate with the outside world since
that time. If she had been in touch with friends/family in Russia they would
have said so and the Russian media would have broadcast the fact even if
ours didn't.
3. We can be fairly sure two people were found in a state of distress and
collapse on a public bench in Salisbury at the approximate time stated.
Occam's Razor would suggest it's most probable these two people were indeed
Sergey and Yulia Skripal, though with no photographic or film evidence that
remains simply an informed assumption.
4. We know that neither Skripal has made any public appearance or statement
since that time, and that they are currently alleged to be in Salisbury
hospital ICU suffering from the effects of a "nerve agent".
5. We know a local policeman, Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey, is also
alleged to be in the same hospital having been contaminated by the same
"nerve agent". How he came to be contaminated is still not clear, and two
conflicting stories have been promoted.
a)The first story was that Bailey became contaminated while visiting
Skripal's home.
b)A subsequent story emerged however that he had been one of the first on
the scene at the bench where the Skripal's were discovered, and had been
contaminated while trying to assist them.
Given the fact Bailey is allegedly a detective in the CID (Criminal
Investigation Department) and not a uniformed officer, the claim he was a
first responder on the scene seems to make little sense. CID detectives are
dispatched to investigate known crimes and crime scenes. They don't do
patrol duty and are not sent as emergency responders.
The first story that Bailey became contaminated while investigating the
Skripal home seems to fit better with the claim that he is an officer in
the CID. The change in narrative about this is currently unexplained.
Bailey's condition is variously reported as "serious" (Amber Rudd, March
10) and as improving (the Chief Constable for Wiltshire, March 8). There
has been no interview with Bailey or with any member of his family as yet,
though as of today Bailey's alleged father-in-law has allegedly come
forward to criticise Jeremy Corbyn for asking for evidence before blaming
Russia. No photographs of or filmed interviews with said father-in-law
have yet been published.
6. We know that almost immediately upon this incident occurring a media
campaign of almost unprecedented intensity began to generate what looked
like a pre-prepared story that the Skripals had been poisoned by Russia.
This claim has been "supported" by untruths and manipulations so
questionable even anonymous FCO sources are worried about the wisdom and
ethics on display. It has also been used to promote a number of agendas
a) finally ditching Brexit (because being in the EU would allegedly
protect the UK from further "Russian aggression").
b) closing down RT in the UK
c) moving/postponing the World Cup
d) imposing fresh sanctions on Russia
e) giving Theresa May her "Falklands moment" in a bid to revive her tanking
popularity.
f) putting pressure on Trump to be more pro-active in condemning Russia.
7. We know Russia has completely denied any involvement in the Skripal
poisoning. And the lack of obvious motive for them to initiate such an
attack has been acknowledged even by members of the Uk establishment.
8. We know the UK has refused Russia's request to give them samples of the
alleged "novichok" for analysis. No specific reason for denying the request
has yet been given.
9. We know the UK has blocked Russia's Resolution in the UN calling for a
"co-operative international investigation in line with OPCW standards".
Again no specific reason or this obstruction has yet been given.
Clearly we currently are in no position to know what really happened to the
Skripals, how it happened, where it happened or who was responsible.
Just as clearly the government and media are lying.
In addition the media are trying to work up a jingoistic anti-Russia
hysteria that has no parallel in recent times. Not even the 2003 media
frenzy to get pubic opinion behind the illegal war on Iraq reached these
heights.
The obvious conclusion from this, if Russia were not a nuclear power, would
be that the British state machine is trying to prepare the people for war
with Russia. Unless the entire British government has lost its mind this
specific aim would seem unlikely. However that something fairly major in
terms of escalation in the "New Cold War" is being planned seems a
reasonable inference at this point.
It may well be that in future days or weeks Porton Down scientists will
announce they finally do have proof of Russia's involvement in creating
this still largely mythical "novichok".
We suggest taking any such future declaration with a great deal of
scepticism.
Read it in full <http://tinyurl.com/y8b3zd2x>
...
Post by Oleg Smirnov
<http://tinyurl.com/yc4kzap6>
Russian Agents Are Whacking People in London Right, Left, and Center ..
Well, that is the most logical and systematic catalogue of events that I have
read since this propaganda campaign started.

Thanks for posting, and for the link.

It illustrates just how easy it is for controlled saturation media coverage
to implant a believable mental vision of a “what actually happened”
scenario into the public domain, without a shred of detailed evidence being
made public.

This episode is becoming very sinister and scary now; and appears to resemble
the North Korean government's antics, which are so regularly ridiculed by
western media outlets.
abelard
2018-03-17 10:19:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by johnny-knowall
Post by Oleg Smirnov
<http://tinyurl.com/yckjjvrn> craigmurray.org.uk
I have now received confirmation from a well placed FCO source that Porton
Down scientists are not able to identify the nerve gas as being of Russian
manufacture, and have been resentful of the pressure being placed on them
to do so. Porton Down would only sign up to the formulation "of a type
developed by Russia" after a rather difficult meeting ..
<http://tinyurl.com/y8b3zd2x> off-guardian.org
UK's "novichok" claim exposed as lies ..
March 16, 2018
.. Such an admission from such a source is damning, and devastating for the
government's bid to create momentum for fresh international action against
Russia. ..
So, what do we currently know with reasonable certainty?
1. We can be fairly sure a man called Sergey Skripal really exists. He has a
well-documented history in Russia and in the UK prior to this event. We can
equally assume he had a wife who died in 2012, a son who died in Russia, and
a daughter called Yulia, who lives in Russia most of the time.
2. We can be fairly sure Yulia really was in Salisbury at the time of the
incident and has been unable to communicate with the outside world since
that time. If she had been in touch with friends/family in Russia they would
have said so and the Russian media would have broadcast the fact even if
ours didn't.
3. We can be fairly sure two people were found in a state of distress and
collapse on a public bench in Salisbury at the approximate time stated.
Occam's Razor would suggest it's most probable these two people were indeed
Sergey and Yulia Skripal, though with no photographic or film evidence that
remains simply an informed assumption.
4. We know that neither Skripal has made any public appearance or statement
since that time, and that they are currently alleged to be in Salisbury
hospital ICU suffering from the effects of a "nerve agent".
5. We know a local policeman, Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey, is also
alleged to be in the same hospital having been contaminated by the same
"nerve agent". How he came to be contaminated is still not clear, and two
conflicting stories have been promoted.
a)The first story was that Bailey became contaminated while visiting
Skripal's home.
b)A subsequent story emerged however that he had been one of the first on
the scene at the bench where the Skripal's were discovered, and had been
contaminated while trying to assist them.
Given the fact Bailey is allegedly a detective in the CID (Criminal
Investigation Department) and not a uniformed officer, the claim he was a
first responder on the scene seems to make little sense. CID detectives are
dispatched to investigate known crimes and crime scenes. They don't do
patrol duty and are not sent as emergency responders.
The first story that Bailey became contaminated while investigating the
Skripal home seems to fit better with the claim that he is an officer in
the CID. The change in narrative about this is currently unexplained.
Bailey's condition is variously reported as "serious" (Amber Rudd, March
10) and as improving (the Chief Constable for Wiltshire, March 8). There
has been no interview with Bailey or with any member of his family as yet,
though as of today Bailey's alleged father-in-law has allegedly come
forward to criticise Jeremy Corbyn for asking for evidence before blaming
Russia. No photographs of or filmed interviews with said father-in-law
have yet been published.
6. We know that almost immediately upon this incident occurring a media
campaign of almost unprecedented intensity began to generate what looked
like a pre-prepared story that the Skripals had been poisoned by Russia.
This claim has been "supported" by untruths and manipulations so
questionable even anonymous FCO sources are worried about the wisdom and
ethics on display. It has also been used to promote a number of agendas
a) finally ditching Brexit (because being in the EU would allegedly
protect the UK from further "Russian aggression").
b) closing down RT in the UK
c) moving/postponing the World Cup
d) imposing fresh sanctions on Russia
e) giving Theresa May her "Falklands moment" in a bid to revive her tanking
popularity.
f) putting pressure on Trump to be more pro-active in condemning Russia.
7. We know Russia has completely denied any involvement in the Skripal
poisoning. And the lack of obvious motive for them to initiate such an
attack has been acknowledged even by members of the Uk establishment.
8. We know the UK has refused Russia's request to give them samples of the
alleged "novichok" for analysis. No specific reason for denying the request
has yet been given.
9. We know the UK has blocked Russia's Resolution in the UN calling for a
"co-operative international investigation in line with OPCW standards".
Again no specific reason or this obstruction has yet been given.
Clearly we currently are in no position to know what really happened to the
Skripals, how it happened, where it happened or who was responsible.
Just as clearly the government and media are lying.
In addition the media are trying to work up a jingoistic anti-Russia
hysteria that has no parallel in recent times. Not even the 2003 media
frenzy to get pubic opinion behind the illegal war on Iraq reached these
heights.
The obvious conclusion from this, if Russia were not a nuclear power, would
be that the British state machine is trying to prepare the people for war
with Russia. Unless the entire British government has lost its mind this
specific aim would seem unlikely. However that something fairly major in
terms of escalation in the "New Cold War" is being planned seems a
reasonable inference at this point.
It may well be that in future days or weeks Porton Down scientists will
announce they finally do have proof of Russia's involvement in creating
this still largely mythical "novichok".
We suggest taking any such future declaration with a great deal of
scepticism.
Read it in full <http://tinyurl.com/y8b3zd2x>
...
Post by Oleg Smirnov
<http://tinyurl.com/yc4kzap6>
Russian Agents Are Whacking People in London Right, Left, and Center ..
Well, that is the most logical and systematic catalogue of events that I have
read since this propaganda campaign started.
Thanks for posting, and for the link.
like most of your posts...it is as full of bugs as an apprentice
programmer
Post by johnny-knowall
It illustrates just how easy it is for controlled saturation media coverage
to implant a believable mental vision of a “what actually happened”
scenario into the public domain, without a shred of detailed evidence being
made public.
far more interesting, it shows just how naive and easily taken
in that you by sloppy agitprop
Post by johnny-knowall
This episode is becoming very sinister and scary now; and appears to resemble
the North Korean government's antics, which are so regularly ridiculed by
western media outlets.
whatever you say agent cob
--
www.abelard.org
abelard
2018-03-17 10:16:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Post by Oleg Smirnov
<http://tinyurl.com/yckjjvrn> craigmurray.org.uk
I have now received confirmation from a well placed FCO source that Porton
Down scientists are not able to identify the nerve gas as being of Russian
manufacture, and have been resentful of the pressure being placed on them
to do so. Porton Down would only sign up to the formulation "of a type
developed by Russia" after a rather difficult meeting ..
<http://tinyurl.com/y8b3zd2x> off-guardian.org
UK's "novichok" claim exposed as lies ..
March 16, 2018
.. Such an admission from such a source is damning, and devastating for the
government's bid to create momentum for fresh international action against
Russia. ..
So, what do we currently know with reasonable certainty?
1. We can be fairly sure a man called Sergey Skripal really exists. He has a
well-documented history in Russia and in the UK prior to this event. We can
equally assume he had a wife who died in 2012, a son who died in Russia, and
a daughter called Yulia, who lives in Russia most of the time.
2. We can be fairly sure Yulia really was in Salisbury at the time of the
incident and has been unable to communicate with the outside world since
that time. If she had been in touch with friends/family in Russia they would
have said so and the Russian media would have broadcast the fact even if
ours didn't.
3. We can be fairly sure two people were found in a state of distress and
collapse on a public bench in Salisbury at the approximate time stated.
Occam's Razor would suggest it's most probable these two people were indeed
Sergey and Yulia Skripal, though with no photographic or film evidence that
remains simply an informed assumption.
4. We know that neither Skripal has made any public appearance or statement
since that time, and that they are currently alleged to be in Salisbury
hospital ICU suffering from the effects of a "nerve agent".
5. We know a local policeman, Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey, is also
alleged to be in the same hospital having been contaminated by the same
"nerve agent". How he came to be contaminated is still not clear, and two
conflicting stories have been promoted.
a)The first story was that Bailey became contaminated while visiting
Skripal's home.
b)A subsequent story emerged however that he had been one of the first on
the scene at the bench where the Skripal's were discovered, and had been
contaminated while trying to assist them.
Given the fact Bailey is allegedly a detective in the CID (Criminal
Investigation Department) and not a uniformed officer, the claim he was a
first responder on the scene seems to make little sense. CID detectives are
dispatched to investigate known crimes and crime scenes. They don't do
patrol duty and are not sent as emergency responders.
The first story that Bailey became contaminated while investigating the
Skripal home seems to fit better with the claim that he is an officer in
the CID. The change in narrative about this is currently unexplained.
Bailey's condition is variously reported as "serious" (Amber Rudd, March
10) and as improving (the Chief Constable for Wiltshire, March 8). There
has been no interview with Bailey or with any member of his family as yet,
though as of today Bailey's alleged father-in-law has allegedly come
forward to criticise Jeremy Corbyn for asking for evidence before blaming
Russia. No photographs of or filmed interviews with said father-in-law
have yet been published.
6. We know that almost immediately upon this incident occurring a media
campaign of almost unprecedented intensity began to generate what looked
like a pre-prepared story that the Skripals had been poisoned by Russia.
This claim has been "supported" by untruths and manipulations so
questionable even anonymous FCO sources are worried about the wisdom and
ethics on display. It has also been used to promote a number of agendas
a) finally ditching Brexit (because being in the EU would allegedly
protect the UK from further "Russian aggression").
b) closing down RT in the UK
c) moving/postponing the World Cup
d) imposing fresh sanctions on Russia
e) giving Theresa May her "Falklands moment" in a bid to revive her tanking
popularity.
f) putting pressure on Trump to be more pro-active in condemning Russia.
7. We know Russia has completely denied any involvement in the Skripal
poisoning. And the lack of obvious motive for them to initiate such an
attack has been acknowledged even by members of the Uk establishment.
8. We know the UK has refused Russia's request to give them samples of the
alleged "novichok" for analysis. No specific reason for denying the request
has yet been given.
9. We know the UK has blocked Russia's Resolution in the UN calling for a
"co-operative international investigation in line with OPCW standards".
Again no specific reason or this obstruction has yet been given.
Clearly we currently are in no position to know what really happened to the
Skripals, how it happened, where it happened or who was responsible.
and that yr onner is the case fer the defence....

i know it's a bit thin and our other attempts went too far...but
that's what we've managed so far
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Just as clearly the government and media are lying.
*that* is what the fossil media does

and now we plan to throw sand in order to confuse and distract:
this is our best attempt as we beaver away...after the fake
election of pootin tomorrow we just may talk a little more sense
Post by Oleg Smirnov
In addition the media are trying to work up a jingoistic anti-Russia
hysteria that has no parallel in recent times. Not even the 2003 media
frenzy to get pubic opinion behind the illegal war on Iraq reached these
heights.
bollox of course
Post by Oleg Smirnov
The obvious conclusion from this, if Russia were not a nuclear power, would
be that the British state machine is trying to prepare the people for war
with Russia. Unless the entire British government has lost its mind this
specific aim would seem unlikely. However that something fairly major in
terms of escalation in the "New Cold War" is being planned seems a
reasonable inference at this point.
more distraction bollox
Post by Oleg Smirnov
It may well be that in future days or weeks Porton Down scientists will
announce they finally do have proof of Russia's involvement in creating
this still largely mythical "novichok".
what does 'largely mythical' mean smeary??

how 'largely'...are you worried about how much proof the west has?
are you trying to find out?
Post by Oleg Smirnov
We suggest taking any such future declaration with a great deal of
scepticism.
that seems already to be the case with your bollox my little smeary
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Read it in full <http://tinyurl.com/y8b3zd2x>
Post by Oleg Smirnov
<http://tinyurl.com/yc4kzap6>
Russian Agents Are Whacking People in London Right, Left, and Center ..
i'm not interested in your hidden links
--
www.abelard.org
Oleg Smirnov
2018-03-16 23:10:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
<http://tinyurl.com/yd7eopy3> moonofalabama.org

March 16, 2018

The government decreed 'truth' about the Skripal case has many discrepancies.
.. It is unclear where the officer is thought to have contacted the alleged
poison. Some reports said it was at Skripal's house, others say that it was
at the bench where the Skripal's collapsed. But a doctor and others who
administered first aid were not affected at all ..

The Skripal's are said to be still alive. No details about the alleged poison
were published and no medical bulletin ..
.. The British government is now making an immense show out of the case by
involving the army and by sending out lots of people in obviously unnecessary
high protection gear.

It also planted lots of rumors. On March 9 it was said that the poison likely
came from inside Mr. Skripal's house. Three days ago claims were made that it
was smeared on the door handle of Skripal's car, today it is supposed to have
come out of the suitcase of Skripal's daughter. All these claims are based on
leaks from anonymous official sources. It is likely that none of them is true.

Today, twelve days after the incident, it is still unknown what chemical
substance the alleged poison exactly is and where and how it was
administered. ..

Blaming Russia for the use of a poison "of a type developed by Russia" (i.e.
the Soviet Union) is like blaming Germany for all current Heroin addicts
because the Deutsche Reich company Bayer developed the mass-production of
Heroin as a sedative for coughs. .. / "Of a type developed by Russia" is now
the standard formulation that the British government and its allies are using.

This is supposed to refer to a zoo of chemical substances, the Novichoks, that
back in the 1980s a Soviet laboratory in today's Uzbekistan may have researched
as potential chemical weapons. There are serious doubts
<http://tinyurl.com/ycfbsp6m>, including from a leading Porton Down scientist,
that these Novichoks actually exist. ..

The Soviet chemist Vil Mirzanyanov, who now lives in the U.S., is the only
person who claims that Novichocks were real chemical weapons. Neither Porton
Down <http://u.to/S6aGEQ> nor the OPCW <http://u.to/QaeGEQ> have accepted that
claim. In 2007 Mirzanyanov wrote a still available book <http://u.to/3KiGEQ>
about his work at the Soviet laboratory in Uzbekistan and published the
chemical formulas of some alleged Novichok substances. .. As today's Wall
Street Journal explains:

That publicity led its chemical structure to be leaked, making it
readily available for reproduction elsewhere, said Ralf Trapp, a
France-based consultant on the control of chemical and biological
weapons.

"The chemical formula has been publicized and we know from
publications from then-Czechoslovakia that they had worked on similar
agents for defense in the 1980s," he said. "I'm sure other countries
with developed programs would have as well." ..

Read more <http://tinyurl.com/yd7eopy3>

...
<http://tinyurl.com/yc4kzap6>
Russian Agents Are Whacking People in London Right, Left, and Center ..
abelard
2018-03-17 00:36:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Oleg Smirnov
<http://tinyurl.com/yd7eopy3> moonofalabama.org
March 16, 2018
The government decreed 'truth' about the Skripal case has many discrepancies.
.. It is unclear where the officer is thought to have contacted the alleged
poison. Some reports said it was at Skripal's house, others say that it was
at the bench where the Skripal's collapsed. But a doctor and others who
administered first aid were not affected at all ..
The Skripal's are said to be still alive. No details about the alleged poison
were published and no medical bulletin ..
.. The British government is now making an immense show out of the case by
involving the army and by sending out lots of people in obviously unnecessary
high protection gear.
It also planted lots of rumors. On March 9 it was said that the poison likely
came from inside Mr. Skripal's house. Three days ago claims were made that it
was smeared on the door handle of Skripal's car, today it is supposed to have
come out of the suitcase of Skripal's daughter. All these claims are based on
leaks from anonymous official sources. It is likely that none of them is true.
Today, twelve days after the incident, it is still unknown what chemical
substance the alleged poison exactly is and where and how it was
administered. ..
Blaming Russia for the use of a poison "of a type developed by Russia" (i.e.
the Soviet Union) is like blaming Germany for all current Heroin addicts
no it isn't
Post by Oleg Smirnov
because the Deutsche Reich company Bayer developed the mass-production of
Heroin as a sedative for coughs. .. / "Of a type developed by Russia" is now
the standard formulation that the British government and its allies are using.
This is supposed to refer to a zoo of chemical substances, the Novichoks, that
back in the 1980s a Soviet laboratory in today's Uzbekistan may have researched
as potential chemical weapons. There are serious doubts
<http://tinyurl.com/ycfbsp6m>, including from a leading Porton Down scientist,
that these Novichoks actually exist. ..
The Soviet chemist Vil Mirzanyanov, who now lives in the U.S., is the only
person who claims that Novichocks were real chemical weapons. Neither Porton
Down <http://u.to/S6aGEQ> nor the OPCW <http://u.to/QaeGEQ> have accepted that
claim. In 2007 Mirzanyanov wrote a still available book <http://u.to/3KiGEQ>
about his work at the Soviet laboratory in Uzbekistan and published the
chemical formulas of some alleged Novichok substances. .. As today's Wall
That publicity led its chemical structure to be leaked,
you just switched from plural to singular
Post by Oleg Smirnov
making it
readily available for reproduction elsewhere, said Ralf Trapp, a
France-based consultant on the control of chemical and biological
weapons.
"The chemical formula has been publicized and we know from
publications from then-Czechoslovakia that they had worked on similar
agents for defense in the 1980s," he said. "I'm sure other countries
with developed programs would have as well." ..
good to see your handlers are improving their fictions....

but it will not fly until you/they make it far less vague at
the edges...

you are too used to living in an intellectual mad house
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Read more <http://tinyurl.com/yd7eopy3>
...
<http://tinyurl.com/yc4kzap6>
Russian Agents Are Whacking People in London Right, Left, and Center ..
--
www.abelard.org
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