Discussion:
Letter Boxes
(too old to reply)
Yellow
2018-08-06 14:39:40 UTC
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I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.

Anyway, Boris has said this -

"If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to cover their
faces, then I totally agree - and I would add that I can find no
scriptural authority for the practice in the Koran.

I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people
should choose to go around looking like letter boxes."

There are various people claiming that he is "pandering to the far
right" but that cannot be correct because I am a liberal and as a
liberal I do not think it is right to see a man in shorts and a tee-
shirt while his wife is covered from head to foot in black.

Others claim he is "promoting Islamophobia" but surely the burka itself
is what is doing the promoting, not calls for it to be banished.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45083275
Norman Wells
2018-08-06 16:09:03 UTC
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Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Anyway, Boris has said this -
"If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to cover their
faces, then I totally agree - and I would add that I can find no
scriptural authority for the practice in the Koran.
I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people
should choose to go around looking like letter boxes."
There are various people claiming that he is "pandering to the far
right" but that cannot be correct because I am a liberal and as a
liberal I do not think it is right to see a man in shorts and a tee-
shirt while his wife is covered from head to foot in black.
Others claim he is "promoting Islamophobia" but surely the burka itself
is what is doing the promoting, not calls for it to be banished.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45083275
Don'tcha just love all this wishy-washy liberal, fence-sitting,
hand-wringing angst?

"I don't like it, but I don't want to do anything about it, but if I
don't then it then it will continue, but I don't like it ...." ad infinitum.

Come off the fence, imagine you're the government, say what should be
done. Something? Nothing? What?

This is a discussion forum, not a self-pity group.
pensive hamster
2018-08-06 16:31:19 UTC
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Post by Norman Wells
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Anyway, Boris has said this -
"If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to cover their
faces, then I totally agree - and I would add that I can find no
scriptural authority for the practice in the Koran.
I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people
should choose to go around looking like letter boxes."
There are various people claiming that he is "pandering to the far
right" but that cannot be correct because I am a liberal and as a
liberal I do not think it is right to see a man in shorts and a tee-
shirt while his wife is covered from head to foot in black.
Others claim he is "promoting Islamophobia" but surely the burka itself
is what is doing the promoting, not calls for it to be banished.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45083275
Don'tcha just love all this wishy-washy liberal, fence-sitting,
hand-wringing angst?
Who are all these wishy-washy liberal, fence-sitting,
hand-wringing, angst-ridden people? Boris? Yellow?
The burkinis?
Post by Norman Wells
"I don't like it, but I don't want to do anything about it, but if I
don't then it then it will continue, but I don't like it ...." ad infinitum.
Come off the fence, imagine you're the government, say what should be
done. Something? Nothing? What?
This is a discussion forum, not a self-pity group.
Either you're trolling again, or you have finally turned into a
no-nonsense, pull-your-socks-up, grumpy Sergeant.Major
stereotype.
Norman Wells
2018-08-06 16:35:16 UTC
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Post by pensive hamster
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Anyway, Boris has said this -
"If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to cover their
faces, then I totally agree - and I would add that I can find no
scriptural authority for the practice in the Koran.
I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people
should choose to go around looking like letter boxes."
There are various people claiming that he is "pandering to the far
right" but that cannot be correct because I am a liberal and as a
liberal I do not think it is right to see a man in shorts and a tee-
shirt while his wife is covered from head to foot in black.
Others claim he is "promoting Islamophobia" but surely the burka itself
is what is doing the promoting, not calls for it to be banished.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45083275
Don'tcha just love all this wishy-washy liberal, fence-sitting,
hand-wringing angst?
Who are all these wishy-washy liberal, fence-sitting,
hand-wringing, angst-ridden people? Boris? Yellow?
The burkinis?
Post by Norman Wells
"I don't like it, but I don't want to do anything about it, but if I
don't then it then it will continue, but I don't like it ...." ad infinitum.
Come off the fence, imagine you're the government, say what should be
done. Something? Nothing? What?
This is a discussion forum, not a self-pity group.
Either you're trolling again, or you have finally turned into a
no-nonsense, pull-your-socks-up, grumpy Sergeant.Major
stereotype.
If you don't have views or can't decide, you can't really have a
discussion, can you? And that rather negates the point of a discussion
group.
Gareth
2018-08-06 16:44:13 UTC
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Post by Norman Wells
If you don't have views or can't decide, you can't really have a
discussion, can you?  And that rather negates the point of a discussion
group.
Surely it is sensible to have a discussion in order to help reach a
better informed decision. If you've already formed an opinion and are
not willing to change it then why discuss it?
pensive hamster
2018-08-06 16:52:42 UTC
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[...]
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Norman Wells
This is a discussion forum, not a self-pity group.
Either you're trolling again, or you have finally turned into a
no-nonsense, pull-your-socks-up, grumpy Sergeant.Major
stereotype.
If you don't have views or can't decide, you can't really have a
discussion, can you? And that rather negates the point of a discussion
group.
I don't see why not. Perhaps you can't really have a polarised,
yes-no type of discussion, but there can be various shades and
subtleties of opinion.

Personally, women's fashion is a bit of a mystery to me. I am
content to view the various displays (including politicians' posturing)
from a safe distance. I would not be so foolish as to voice an
opinion on what women wear.

Anyway, you haven't said who all these wishy-washy liberal,
fence-sitting, hand-wringing, angst-ridden people are. I would have
thought you would want to be encouraging them to contribute to
the discussions you are apparently in favour of, rather than mocking
their opinions.
Yellow
2018-08-06 17:08:11 UTC
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Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Norman Wells
This is a discussion forum, not a self-pity group.
Either you're trolling again, or you have finally turned into a
no-nonsense, pull-your-socks-up, grumpy Sergeant.Major
stereotype.
If you don't have views or can't decide, you can't really have a
discussion, can you? And that rather negates the point of a discussion
group.
I don't see why not. Perhaps you can't really have a polarised,
yes-no type of discussion, but there can be various shades and
subtleties of opinion.
Personally, women's fashion is a bit of a mystery to me. I am
content to view the various displays (including politicians' posturing)
from a safe distance. I would not be so foolish as to voice an
opinion on what women wear.
It is a mystery to me too, particularly very wealthy women, film stars,
who go to gala events dressed like prostitutes.

I watch, I wonder, and I have not got a clue.

And meanwhile, all the men will be wearing nice suits and comfortable
shoes.
Post by pensive hamster
Anyway, you haven't said who all these wishy-washy liberal,
fence-sitting, hand-wringing, angst-ridden people are. I would have
thought you would want to be encouraging them to contribute to
the discussions you are apparently in favour of, rather than mocking
their opinions.
Gareth
2018-08-06 18:07:15 UTC
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Post by Yellow
It is a mystery to me too, particularly very wealthy women, film stars,
who go to gala events dressed like prostitutes.
They like to look good, or perhaps in the case of film stars they have
to look good if they want to continue to be film stars.

I remember that one of the first times I went shopping with my wife and
she asked me which shoes she should get. I replied "get the most
comfortable pair" and she looked totally perplexed.

It isn't much different for men. I hate wearing a suit and tie but if I
have a job interview or an important meeting I put up with the
discomfort in order to get/keep employment. Similarly if I have to go
to a wedding, funeral or posh do I wear a suit even though I'd really
rather not.
Post by Yellow
I watch, I wonder, and I have not got a clue.
And meanwhile, all the men will be wearing nice suits and comfortable
shoes.
I'm not sure that wearing a black dinner jacket and black tie is all
that pleasant the heat of LA or Cannes. I haven't tried it (here or
Cannes) but I reckon a dress would be a lot more comfortable in hot
weather. It appears I'm not the only one:

"Sweden male train drivers wear skirts after shorts row"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22828150

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/jun/22/teenage-boys-wear-skirts-to-school-protest-no-shorts-uniform-policy

for some reason expecting men to conform to dress codes doesn't seem to
spark the outrage we see when women are asked to, for example:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/jul/12/lewis-hamilton-turned-away-from-centre-court-at-wimbledon
Yellow
2018-08-06 18:10:15 UTC
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Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
It is a mystery to me too, particularly very wealthy women, film stars,
who go to gala events dressed like prostitutes.
They like to look good, or perhaps in the case of film stars they have
to look good if they want to continue to be film stars.
I remember that one of the first times I went shopping with my wife and
she asked me which shoes she should get. I replied "get the most
comfortable pair" and she looked totally perplexed.
It isn't much different for men. I hate wearing a suit and tie but if I
have a job interview or an important meeting I put up with the
discomfort in order to get/keep employment. Similarly if I have to go
to a wedding, funeral or posh do I wear a suit even though I'd really
rather not.
Post by Yellow
I watch, I wonder, and I have not got a clue.
And meanwhile, all the men will be wearing nice suits and comfortable
shoes.
I'm not sure that wearing a black dinner jacket and black tie is all
that pleasant the heat of LA or Cannes. I haven't tried it (here or
Cannes) but I reckon a dress would be a lot more comfortable in hot
But would you flash some side-testicle?
Post by Gareth
"Sweden male train drivers wear skirts after shorts row"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22828150
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/jun/22/teenage-boys-wear-skirts-to-school-protest-no-shorts-uniform-policy
for some reason expecting men to conform to dress codes doesn't seem to
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/jul/12/lewis-hamilton-turned-away-from-centre-court-at-wimbledon
Gareth
2018-08-06 18:25:37 UTC
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Post by Yellow
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
It is a mystery to me too, particularly very wealthy women, film stars,
who go to gala events dressed like prostitutes.
They like to look good, or perhaps in the case of film stars they have
to look good if they want to continue to be film stars.
I remember that one of the first times I went shopping with my wife and
she asked me which shoes she should get. I replied "get the most
comfortable pair" and she looked totally perplexed.
It isn't much different for men. I hate wearing a suit and tie but if I
have a job interview or an important meeting I put up with the
discomfort in order to get/keep employment. Similarly if I have to go
to a wedding, funeral or posh do I wear a suit even though I'd really
rather not.
Post by Yellow
I watch, I wonder, and I have not got a clue.
And meanwhile, all the men will be wearing nice suits and comfortable
shoes.
I'm not sure that wearing a black dinner jacket and black tie is all
that pleasant the heat of LA or Cannes. I haven't tried it (here or
Cannes) but I reckon a dress would be a lot more comfortable in hot
But would you flash some side-testicle?
No, for two reasons:

1) Nobody wants to see my testicle, whereas people do want to see
beautiful film stars bodies (male or female).

2) if I did I would probably be arrested.
Norman Wells
2018-08-06 17:58:20 UTC
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Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Norman Wells
This is a discussion forum, not a self-pity group.
Either you're trolling again, or you have finally turned into a
no-nonsense, pull-your-socks-up, grumpy Sergeant.Major
stereotype.
If you don't have views or can't decide, you can't really have a
discussion, can you? And that rather negates the point of a discussion
group.
I don't see why not. Perhaps you can't really have a polarised,
yes-no type of discussion, but there can be various shades and
subtleties of opinion.
When we're talking about the law, though, that's not an option. We have
to decide. Should we have a law against covering up or not?
Gareth
2018-08-06 18:20:29 UTC
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I don't see why not.  Perhaps you can't really have a polarised,
yes-no type of discussion, but there can be various shades and
subtleties of opinion.
When we're talking about the law, though, that's not an option.  We have
to decide.  Should we have a law against covering up or not?
I disagree. The law is not simply yes/no. It is very complicated and
has to take into account many factors. If the law was simple yes/no we
could replace our expensive legal system with a flow chart.

Some examples: should the ban be in all public buildings, certain public
buildings, e.g. schools or maybe where there is a security risk (c.f.
motorcyclists having to remove helmets before entering the shops at
petrol stations). Do we ban burkas but allow old white ladies to wear
hats and scarves which cover their faces in cold weather? What about a
Muslim woman wearing a Parker snorkel type coat with the hood pulled
forward.

Should covering up be allowed if it's the woman's choice but not if it's
the husband's choice? What about a teenager who's father insists she
covers up? Is that fundamentally different from a Christian Dad who
insists his daughter wears a longer skirt and higher neckline? Where do
we draw the line?
Norman Wells
2018-08-06 21:35:15 UTC
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I don't see why not.  Perhaps you can't really have a polarised,
yes-no type of discussion, but there can be various shades and
subtleties of opinion.
When we're talking about the law, though, that's not an option.  We
have to decide.  Should we have a law against covering up or not?
I disagree.  The law is not simply yes/no.  It is very complicated and
has to take into account many factors.  If the law was simple yes/no we
could replace our expensive legal system with a flow chart.
Some examples: should the ban be in all public buildings, certain public
buildings, e.g. schools or maybe where there is a security risk (c.f.
motorcyclists having to remove helmets before entering the shops at
petrol stations).  Do we ban burkas but allow old white ladies to wear
hats and scarves which cover their faces in cold weather?  What about a
Muslim woman wearing a Parker snorkel type coat with the hood pulled
forward.
Should covering up be allowed if it's the woman's choice but not if it's
the husband's choice?  What about a teenager who's father insists she
covers up? Is that fundamentally different from a Christian Dad who
insists his daughter wears a longer skirt and higher neckline?  Where do
we draw the line?
All of this comes *after* we've decided to have a law to ban covering
up, which you seem to have accepted.
Gareth
2018-08-06 22:07:45 UTC
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Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pensive hamster
I don't see why not. Perhaps you can't really have a
polarised, yes-no type of discussion, but there can be various
shades and subtleties of opinion.
When we're talking about the law, though, that's not an option.
We have to decide. Should we have a law against covering up or
not?
I disagree. The law is not simply yes/no. It is very complicated
and has to take into account many factors. If the law was simple
yes/no we could replace our expensive legal system with a flow
chart.
Some examples: should the ban be in all public buildings, certain
public buildings, e.g. schools or maybe where there is a security
risk (c.f. motorcyclists having to remove helmets before entering
the shops at petrol stations). Do we ban burkas but allow old
white ladies to wear hats and scarves which cover their faces in
cold weather? What about a Muslim woman wearing a Parker snorkel
type coat with the hood pulled forward.
Should covering up be allowed if it's the woman's choice but not if
it's the husband's choice? What about a teenager who's father
insists she covers up? Is that fundamentally different from a
Christian Dad who insists his daughter wears a longer skirt and
higher neckline? Where do we draw the line?
All of this comes *after* we've decided to have a law to ban covering
up,
I disagree. The devil is in the detail and I think the details and
possible negative impact need to be considered carefully before a change
is agreed.
Post by Norman Wells
which you seem to have accepted
What makes you say that?
Norman Wells
2018-08-07 07:49:59 UTC
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Post by Norman Wells
Post by Norman Wells
I don't see why not.  Perhaps you can't really have a
polarised, yes-no type of discussion, but there can be various
shades and subtleties of opinion.
When we're talking about the law, though, that's not an option.
We have to decide.  Should we have a law against covering up or
not?
I disagree.  The law is not simply yes/no.  It is very complicated
and has to take into account many factors.  If the law was simple
yes/no we could replace our expensive legal system with a flow
chart.
Some examples: should the ban be in all public buildings, certain
public buildings, e.g. schools or maybe where there is a security
risk (c.f. motorcyclists having to remove helmets before entering
the shops at petrol stations).  Do we ban burkas but allow old
white ladies to wear hats and scarves which cover their faces in
cold weather?  What about a Muslim woman wearing a Parker snorkel
type coat with the hood pulled forward.
Should covering up be allowed if it's the woman's choice but not if
 it's the husband's choice?  What about a teenager who's father
insists she covers up? Is that fundamentally different from a
Christian Dad who insists his daughter wears a longer skirt and
higher neckline? Where do we draw the line?
All of this comes *after* we've decided to have a law to ban covering
 up,
I disagree.  The devil is in the detail and I think the details and
possible negative impact need to be considered carefully before a change
is agreed.
Should we have a new law prohibiting covering up, even if limited to
restricted situations? It's a simple question.
Pamela
2018-08-07 12:13:21 UTC
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Post by Norman Wells
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Norman Wells
I don't see why not.  Perhaps you can't really have a
polarised, yes-no type of discussion, but there can be
various shades and subtleties of opinion.
When we're talking about the law, though, that's not an
option. We have to decide.  Should we have a law against
covering up or not?
I disagree.  The law is not simply yes/no.  It is very
complicated and has to take into account many factors.  If the
law was simple yes/no we could replace our expensive legal
system with a flow chart.
Some examples: should the ban be in all public buildings,
certain public buildings, e.g. schools or maybe where there is
a security risk (c.f. motorcyclists having to remove helmets
before entering the shops at petrol stations).  Do we ban
burkas but allow old white ladies to wear hats and scarves
which cover their faces in cold weather?  What about a Muslim
woman wearing a Parker snorkel type coat with the hood pulled
forward.
Should covering up be allowed if it's the woman's choice but
not if  it's the husband's choice?  What about a teenager
who's father insists she covers up? Is that fundamentally
different from a Christian Dad who insists his daughter wears a
longer skirt and higher neckline? Where do we draw the line?
All of this comes *after* we've decided to have a law to ban
covering  up,
I disagree.  The devil is in the detail and I think the details
and possible negative impact need to be considered carefully
before a change is agreed.
Should we have a new law prohibiting covering up, even if limited
to restricted situations? It's a simple question.
Another trolling question. Someone will probably bite.
pensive hamster
2018-08-06 18:58:29 UTC
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Post by Norman Wells
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by Norman Wells
If you don't have views or can't decide, you can't really have a
discussion, can you? And that rather negates the point of a discussion
group.
I don't see why not. Perhaps you can't really have a polarised,
yes-no type of discussion, but there can be various shades and
subtleties of opinion.
When we're talking about the law, though, that's not an option. We have
to decide. Should we have a law against covering up or not?
We could have a law against covering up in certain circumstances
- in schools, courtrooms, etc.

But it could get quite complicated if you want a law banning covering up
in all public situations. Would you ban fancy dress, or Venice carnival
type masks? Or the anti-pollution masks that some cyclists like to wear?

Would you specify a certain minimum area in square millimetres, of the
face that had to be visible?

Though I would be amenable to banning the large spangly type glasses
that Elton John likes to wear, they are a bit annoying.

Loading Image...
Norman Wells
2018-08-06 21:37:08 UTC
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Post by pensive hamster
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by Norman Wells
If you don't have views or can't decide, you can't really have a
discussion, can you? And that rather negates the point of a discussion
group.
I don't see why not. Perhaps you can't really have a polarised,
yes-no type of discussion, but there can be various shades and
subtleties of opinion.
When we're talking about the law, though, that's not an option. We have
to decide. Should we have a law against covering up or not?
We could have a law against covering up in certain circumstances
- in schools, courtrooms, etc.
But it could get quite complicated if you want a law banning covering up
in all public situations. Would you ban fancy dress, or Venice carnival
type masks? Or the anti-pollution masks that some cyclists like to wear?
Would you specify a certain minimum area in square millimetres, of the
face that had to be visible?
Though I would be amenable to banning the large spangly type glasses
that Elton John likes to wear, they are a bit annoying.
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/C4XJHM/couple-wearing-large-fancy-dress-glasses-attend-an-elton-john-concert-C4XJHM.jpg
First you have to decide whether you want any change in the law at all.
Where do you stand on that?

All the rest is detail.
pensive hamster
2018-08-09 17:07:16 UTC
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Post by Norman Wells
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by Norman Wells
If you don't have views or can't decide, you can't really have a
discussion, can you? And that rather negates the point of a discussion
group.
I don't see why not. Perhaps you can't really have a polarised,
yes-no type of discussion, but there can be various shades and
subtleties of opinion.
When we're talking about the law, though, that's not an option. We have
to decide. Should we have a law against covering up or not?
We could have a law against covering up in certain circumstances
- in schools, courtrooms, etc.
But it could get quite complicated if you want a law banning covering up
in all public situations. Would you ban fancy dress, or Venice carnival
type masks? Or the anti-pollution masks that some cyclists like to wear?
Would you specify a certain minimum area in square millimetres, of the
face that had to be visible?
Though I would be amenable to banning the large spangly type glasses
that Elton John likes to wear, they are a bit annoying.
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/C4XJHM/couple-wearing-large-fancy-dress-glasses-attend-an-elton-john-concert-C4XJHM.jpg
First you have to decide whether you want any change in the law at all.
You are getting a bit bossy. And you are wrong.

First one has to decide whether a certain matter is problematic,
and if the answer is yes, then one can consider whether new
legislation might ameliorate the problem(s).

There may be some women in this country who are forced to
wear a burqa against their will, but I suspect the number is fairly
small. Equally, their may be some women in this country who
choose to wear a burqa, for religious reasons, or because they
resent being judged on their looks. Again, I suspect the number
is fairly small.

I think it is problematic if some women are forced to wear a
burqa against their will, but I don't think banning it would be a
good idea, because it would probably do more harm than
good. It would tend to increase divisiveness and cultural
alienation, and might result in some women not being allowed
to leave the house at all.

I think the problem of some women being forced to wear a
burqa against their will is best addressed through a form of
feminism - i.e. women (and men) who are opposed to the
practice, speaking out against it. This seems to be already
happening to some extent.
Post by Norman Wells
Where do you stand on that?
All the rest is detail.
The details are the important bits.
Norman Wells
2018-08-09 18:13:29 UTC
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Post by pensive hamster
I think it is problematic if some women are forced to wear a
burqa against their will, but I don't think banning it would be a
good idea, because it would probably do more harm than
good. It would tend to increase divisiveness and cultural
alienation, and might result in some women not being allowed
to leave the house at all.
I think the problem of some women being forced to wear a
burqa against their will is best addressed through a form of
feminism - i.e. women (and men) who are opposed to the
practice, speaking out against it. This seems to be already
happening to some extent.
That's so wishy-washy I'm feeling damp just reading it.

Does the same apply to female genital mutilation?
pensive hamster
2018-08-09 18:42:06 UTC
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Post by Norman Wells
Post by pensive hamster
I think it is problematic if some women are forced to wear a
burqa against their will, but I don't think banning it would be a
good idea, because it would probably do more harm than
good. It would tend to increase divisiveness and cultural
alienation, and might result in some women not being allowed
to leave the house at all.
I think the problem of some women being forced to wear a
burqa against their will is best addressed through a form of
feminism - i.e. women (and men) who are opposed to the
practice, speaking out against it. This seems to be already
happening to some extent.
That's so wishy-washy I'm feeling damp just reading it.
Does the same apply to female genital mutilation?
Partly yes, and partly no.

No, because I support legislation against FGM. Yes, because
I gather there have been no successful prosecutions in the UK,
and thus I tend to think the problem may be most effectively
addressed through a form of feminism - i.e. women (and men)
who are opposed to the practice, speaking out against it.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/mar/07/reported-cases-fgm-rise-sharply-uk-no-court-convictions
7 Mar 2018
'... It has been more than three decades since FGM was made
illegal in the UK, but there is yet to be a successful prosecution.
The first case, in 2015, resulted in an NHS doctor being acquitted
in less than 30 minutes. ...'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5456769/PAUL-BRACCHI-UKs-second-female-genital-mutilation-trial-collapses.html
3 March 2018
'Why have there been NO convictions for FGM in Britain yet?
PAUL BRACCHI sees the UK's second ever female genital
mutilation trial collapse leaving dozens of unanswered questions'
Norman Wells
2018-08-09 19:52:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pensive hamster
I think it is problematic if some women are forced to wear a
burqa against their will, but I don't think banning it would be a
good idea, because it would probably do more harm than
good. It would tend to increase divisiveness and cultural
alienation, and might result in some women not being allowed
to leave the house at all.
I think the problem of some women being forced to wear a
burqa against their will is best addressed through a form of
feminism - i.e. women (and men) who are opposed to the
practice, speaking out against it. This seems to be already
happening to some extent.
That's so wishy-washy I'm feeling damp just reading it.
Does the same apply to female genital mutilation?
Partly yes, and partly no.
No, because I support legislation against FGM. Yes, because
I gather there have been no successful prosecutions in the UK,
and thus I tend to think the problem may be most effectively
addressed through a form of feminism - i.e. women (and men)
who are opposed to the practice, speaking out against it.
It's had no effect whatever for 14 centuries. What on earth makes you
think it will now?

I think the only answer is a string of prosecutions, and abandonment of
the sopping wet political correctness that says we musn't on any account
risk offending anyone who does it, especially if they're muslim, which
of course they all are.

We should stop being cowards over our laws, and have the courage to
enforce them properly. It's not our country if we don't.

We should also have the courage of our convictions to make coercive
wearing of the burka illegal. If that means we have to make all wearing
of it illegal because otherwise it would be too difficult to prove,
especially if it is coercive, then that's what we should do.

Sitting on the fence and hoping for the best when you know nothing will
happen is not on.
Fredxx
2018-08-09 21:45:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pensive hamster
I think it is problematic if some women are forced to wear a
burqa against their will, but I don't think banning it would be a
good idea, because it would probably do more harm than
good. It would tend to increase divisiveness and cultural
alienation, and might result in some women not being allowed
to leave the house at all.
I think the problem of some women being forced to wear a
burqa against their will is best addressed through a form of
feminism - i.e. women (and men) who are opposed to the
practice, speaking out against it. This seems to be already
happening to some extent.
That's so wishy-washy I'm feeling damp just reading it.
Does the same apply to female genital mutilation?
Partly yes, and partly no.
No, because I support legislation against FGM. Yes, because
I gather there have been no successful prosecutions in the UK,
That is because the present law is toothless, on purpose, so nothing is
done and lip service is paid.

If you have a car and park it on double yellow lines, you can be sure
someone, somewhere, will pay the penalty. That is because the registered
keeper is ultimately responsible for the fine.

If there was a will to start prosecuting those whose children are
mutilated, one can simply make the parents responsible for their
daughters' labia. If they go missing, then the parent spends a year or
two in gaol. It could be so simple. No need to obtain any statement from
the daughter or indeed anyone else.
Norman Wells
2018-08-09 22:12:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fredxx
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pensive hamster
I think it is problematic if some women are forced to wear a
burqa against their will, but I don't think banning it would be a
good idea, because it would probably do more harm than
good.  It would tend to increase divisiveness and cultural
alienation, and might result in some women not being allowed
to leave the house at all.
I think the problem of some women being forced to wear a
burqa against their will is best addressed through a form of
feminism - i.e. women (and men) who are opposed to the
practice, speaking out against it.  This seems to be already
happening to some extent.
That's so wishy-washy I'm feeling damp just reading it.
Does the same apply to female genital mutilation?
Partly yes, and partly no.
No, because I support legislation against FGM.  Yes, because
I gather there have been no successful prosecutions in the UK,
That is because the present law is toothless, on purpose, so nothing is
done and lip service is paid.
If you have a car and park it on double yellow lines, you can be sure
someone, somewhere, will pay the penalty. That is because the registered
keeper is ultimately responsible for the fine.
If there was a will to start prosecuting those whose children are
mutilated, one can simply make the parents responsible for their
daughters' labia. If they go missing, then the parent spends a year or
two in gaol. It could be so simple. No need to obtain any statement from
the daughter or indeed anyone else.
That is pretty much the law in the UK already under the Female Genital
Mutilation Act 2003. But it still needs to be proved beyond reasonable
doubt. It's one of the fundamental requirements of British justice.

The only thing that is lacking at the moment is the will to apply the
law without fear or favour.

Oh my goodness, it's a muslim thing, so we daren't do anything for fear
of appearing racist, the very worst curse that can ever be hurled.

We need to man up. We've passed the law. It ought to be enforced.
The Todal
2018-08-09 22:13:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fredxx
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pensive hamster
I think it is problematic if some women are forced to wear a
burqa against their will, but I don't think banning it would be a
good idea, because it would probably do more harm than
good.  It would tend to increase divisiveness and cultural
alienation, and might result in some women not being allowed
to leave the house at all.
I think the problem of some women being forced to wear a
burqa against their will is best addressed through a form of
feminism - i.e. women (and men) who are opposed to the
practice, speaking out against it.  This seems to be already
happening to some extent.
That's so wishy-washy I'm feeling damp just reading it.
Does the same apply to female genital mutilation?
Partly yes, and partly no.
No, because I support legislation against FGM.  Yes, because
I gather there have been no successful prosecutions in the UK,
That is because the present law is toothless, on purpose, so nothing is
done and lip service is paid.
If you have a car and park it on double yellow lines, you can be sure
someone, somewhere, will pay the penalty. That is because the registered
keeper is ultimately responsible for the fine.
If there was a will to start prosecuting those whose children are
mutilated, one can simply make the parents responsible for their
daughters' labia. If they go missing, then the parent spends a year or
two in gaol. It could be so simple. No need to obtain any statement from
the daughter or indeed anyone else.
Obviously the main problem with the law is that the children don't
complain to the police and it's rare for any FGM victims to be detected
at all.

So if a woman of 18 comes to the GP and appears to have been mutilated,
do you then prosecute her parents for an offence that took place 10
years ago, probably in a different country?

It certainly has nothing to do with trying to avoid causing offence to
the muslims. It's to do with proving that an offence has been committed
within the jurisdiction of our courts.

The only way to ensure more prosecutions would be to forcibly medically
examine all girls regularly. It wouldn't be a popular system.

Yellow
2018-08-06 16:45:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Anyway, Boris has said this -
"If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to cover their
faces, then I totally agree - and I would add that I can find no
scriptural authority for the practice in the Koran.
I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people
should choose to go around looking like letter boxes."
There are various people claiming that he is "pandering to the far
right" but that cannot be correct because I am a liberal and as a
liberal I do not think it is right to see a man in shorts and a tee-
shirt while his wife is covered from head to foot in black.
Others claim he is "promoting Islamophobia" but surely the burka itself
is what is doing the promoting, not calls for it to be banished.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45083275
Don'tcha just love all this wishy-washy liberal, fence-sitting,
hand-wringing angst?
"I don't like it, but I don't want to do anything about it, but if I
don't then it then it will continue, but I don't like it ...." ad infinitum.
Come off the fence, imagine you're the government, say what should be
done. Something? Nothing? What?
This is a discussion forum, not a self-pity group.
You are wrong in thinking that being a liberal means sitting on the
fence, which suggests not having an opinion, when instead it is about
trying to balance freedoms when you an opinion.
Norman Wells
2018-08-06 17:59:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Anyway, Boris has said this -
"If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to cover their
faces, then I totally agree - and I would add that I can find no
scriptural authority for the practice in the Koran.
I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people
should choose to go around looking like letter boxes."
There are various people claiming that he is "pandering to the far
right" but that cannot be correct because I am a liberal and as a
liberal I do not think it is right to see a man in shorts and a tee-
shirt while his wife is covered from head to foot in black.
Others claim he is "promoting Islamophobia" but surely the burka itself
is what is doing the promoting, not calls for it to be banished.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45083275
Don'tcha just love all this wishy-washy liberal, fence-sitting,
hand-wringing angst?
"I don't like it, but I don't want to do anything about it, but if I
don't then it then it will continue, but I don't like it ...." ad infinitum.
Come off the fence, imagine you're the government, say what should be
done. Something? Nothing? What?
This is a discussion forum, not a self-pity group.
You are wrong in thinking that being a liberal means sitting on the
fence, which suggests not having an opinion, when instead it is about
trying to balance freedoms when you an opinion.
So, where do you see the balance lying?
Pamela
2018-08-07 16:49:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Yellow
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I
respect the argument that people should to a greater or lesser
degree be allowed to wear what they wish, I find it heart
breaking that there are women who feel this is how they need to
dress.
Anyway, Boris has said this -
"If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to
cover their faces, then I totally agree - and I would add that
I can find no scriptural authority for the practice in the
Koran.
I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous
that people should choose to go around looking like letter
boxes."
There are various people claiming that he is "pandering to the
far right" but that cannot be correct because I am a liberal
and as a liberal I do not think it is right to see a man in
shorts and a tee- shirt while his wife is covered from head to
foot in black.
Others claim he is "promoting Islamophobia" but surely the
burka itself is what is doing the promoting, not calls for it
to be banished.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45083275
Don'tcha just love all this wishy-washy liberal, fence-sitting,
hand-wringing angst?
"I don't like it, but I don't want to do anything about it, but
if I don't then it then it will continue, but I don't like it
...." ad infinitum.
Come off the fence, imagine you're the government, say what
should be done. Something? Nothing? What?
This is a discussion forum, not a self-pity group.
You are wrong in thinking that being a liberal means sitting on
the fence, which suggests not having an opinion, when instead it
is about trying to balance freedoms when you an opinion.
So, where do you see the balance lying?
Will Yellow fall for the leading troll question?
Brian Reay
2018-08-06 16:45:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Anyway, Boris has said this -
"If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to cover their
faces, then I totally agree - and I would add that I can find no
scriptural authority for the practice in the Koran.
I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people
should choose to go around looking like letter boxes."
There are various people claiming that he is "pandering to the far
right" but that cannot be correct because I am a liberal and as a
liberal I do not think it is right to see a man in shorts and a tee-
shirt while his wife is covered from head to foot in black.
Others claim he is "promoting Islamophobia" but surely the burka itself
is what is doing the promoting, not calls for it to be banished.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45083275
Don'tcha just love all this wishy-washy liberal, fence-sitting,
hand-wringing angst?
"I don't like it, but I don't want to do anything about it, but if I
don't then it then it will continue, but I don't like it ...." ad infinitum.
Come off the fence, imagine you're the government, say what should be
done.  Something?  Nothing?  What?
This is a discussion forum, not a self-pity group.
It isn't a simple problem.

There is nothing in the Koran which specifies the strict dress some
woman wear. There is mention of 'modesty' but that in itself doesn't
automatically mean 'cover up', it can also mean 'don't stand out'. That
was explained to me by a Muslim.

Likewise, if a women wishes to dress in a certain way, why should others
prevent it- unless it causes them some problem? I can't see how
'covering up' can cause a problem - other than maybe when it comes to ID
checks. That can be worked around.

Of course, there is the question of the woman being free to decide how
she dresses. Obviously we shouldn't be condoning any coercion but how do
we know if it is happening?


There isn't an easy answer and balancing the woman's right to chose to
wear the clothes she feels reflects her religious convictions and
ensuring she is free to make that choice by removing it. We may not
understand her convictions but, in this area, they aren't harming us so
we should try to accept them.
Yellow
2018-08-06 17:04:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Anyway, Boris has said this -
"If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to cover their
faces, then I totally agree - and I would add that I can find no
scriptural authority for the practice in the Koran.
I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people
should choose to go around looking like letter boxes."
There are various people claiming that he is "pandering to the far
right" but that cannot be correct because I am a liberal and as a
liberal I do not think it is right to see a man in shorts and a tee-
shirt while his wife is covered from head to foot in black.
Others claim he is "promoting Islamophobia" but surely the burka itself
is what is doing the promoting, not calls for it to be banished.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45083275
Don'tcha just love all this wishy-washy liberal, fence-sitting,
hand-wringing angst?
"I don't like it, but I don't want to do anything about it, but if I
don't then it then it will continue, but I don't like it ...." ad infinitum.
Come off the fence, imagine you're the government, say what should be
done.  Something?  Nothing?  What?
This is a discussion forum, not a self-pity group.
It isn't a simple problem.
I agree.
Post by Brian Reay
There is nothing in the Koran which specifies the strict dress some
woman wear. There is mention of 'modesty' but that in itself doesn't
automatically mean 'cover up', it can also mean 'don't stand out'. That
was explained to me by a Muslim.
I am listening to this being discussed on the radio and one caller has
just said that her father taught her and her sister that if they did not
cover their hair they would go to hell for being immodest.

She no longer covers up as she has broken away from the religion but her
sister is still adamant that what her father taught her was correct,
because he is their father.
Post by Brian Reay
Likewise, if a women wishes to dress in a certain way, why should others
prevent it- unless it causes them some problem? I can't see how
'covering up' can cause a problem - other than maybe when it comes to ID
checks. That can be worked around.
Of course, there is the question of the woman being free to decide how
she dresses. Obviously we shouldn't be condoning any coercion but how do
we know if it is happening?
Which of course is the problem area not least because 'free' can mean a
number of things as what I have posted above demonstrates.
Post by Brian Reay
There isn't an easy answer and balancing the woman's right to chose to
wear the clothes she feels reflects her religious convictions and
ensuring she is free to make that choice by removing it. We may not
understand her convictions but, in this area, they aren't harming us so
we should try to accept them.
I do not think women who cover up should be discriminated against any
more than anyone else wearing inappropriate clothing for a particular
situation are.

I would however like to see a cultural change in these communities.
Yellow
2018-08-06 18:11:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Anyway, Boris has said this -
"If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to cover their
faces, then I totally agree - and I would add that I can find no
scriptural authority for the practice in the Koran.
I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people
should choose to go around looking like letter boxes."
There are various people claiming that he is "pandering to the far
right" but that cannot be correct because I am a liberal and as a
liberal I do not think it is right to see a man in shorts and a tee-
shirt while his wife is covered from head to foot in black.
Others claim he is "promoting Islamophobia" but surely the burka itself
is what is doing the promoting, not calls for it to be banished.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45083275
Don'tcha just love all this wishy-washy liberal, fence-sitting,
hand-wringing angst?
"I don't like it, but I don't want to do anything about it, but if I
don't then it then it will continue, but I don't like it ...." ad infinitum.
Come off the fence, imagine you're the government, say what should be
done.  Something?  Nothing?  What?
This is a discussion forum, not a self-pity group.
It isn't a simple problem.
I agree.
Post by Brian Reay
There is nothing in the Koran which specifies the strict dress some
woman wear. There is mention of 'modesty' but that in itself doesn't
automatically mean 'cover up', it can also mean 'don't stand out'. That
was explained to me by a Muslim.
I am listening to this being discussed on the radio and one caller has
just said that her father taught her and her sister that if they did not
cover their hair they would go to hell for being immodest.
She no longer covers up as she has broken away from the religion but her
sister is still adamant that what her father taught her was correct,
because he is their father.
Post by Brian Reay
Likewise, if a women wishes to dress in a certain way, why should others
prevent it- unless it causes them some problem? I can't see how
'covering up' can cause a problem - other than maybe when it comes to ID
checks. That can be worked around.
Of course, there is the question of the woman being free to decide how
she dresses. Obviously we shouldn't be condoning any coercion but how do
we know if it is happening?
Which of course is the problem area not least because 'free' can mean a
number of things as what I have posted above demonstrates.
Post by Brian Reay
There isn't an easy answer and balancing the woman's right to chose to
wear the clothes she feels reflects her religious convictions and
ensuring she is free to make that choice by removing it. We may not
understand her convictions but, in this area, they aren't harming us so
we should try to accept them.
I do not think women who cover up should be discriminated against any
more than anyone else wearing inappropriate clothing for a particular
situation are.
I would however like to see a cultural change in these communities.
So, you'd do nothing at all?
What would you suggest?
You clearly see problems. How does doing nothing help to solve them?
I am open to suggestions.
Norman Wells
2018-08-06 18:59:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by Yellow
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Anyway, Boris has said this -
"If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to cover their
faces, then I totally agree - and I would add that I can find no
scriptural authority for the practice in the Koran.
I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people
should choose to go around looking like letter boxes."
There are various people claiming that he is "pandering to the far
right" but that cannot be correct because I am a liberal and as a
liberal I do not think it is right to see a man in shorts and a tee-
shirt while his wife is covered from head to foot in black.
Others claim he is "promoting Islamophobia" but surely the burka itself
is what is doing the promoting, not calls for it to be banished.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45083275
Don'tcha just love all this wishy-washy liberal, fence-sitting,
hand-wringing angst?
"I don't like it, but I don't want to do anything about it, but if I
don't then it then it will continue, but I don't like it ...." ad infinitum.
Come off the fence, imagine you're the government, say what should be
done.  Something?  Nothing?  What?
This is a discussion forum, not a self-pity group.
It isn't a simple problem.
I agree.
Post by Brian Reay
There is nothing in the Koran which specifies the strict dress some
woman wear. There is mention of 'modesty' but that in itself doesn't
automatically mean 'cover up', it can also mean 'don't stand out'. That
was explained to me by a Muslim.
I am listening to this being discussed on the radio and one caller has
just said that her father taught her and her sister that if they did not
cover their hair they would go to hell for being immodest.
She no longer covers up as she has broken away from the religion but her
sister is still adamant that what her father taught her was correct,
because he is their father.
Post by Brian Reay
Likewise, if a women wishes to dress in a certain way, why should others
prevent it- unless it causes them some problem? I can't see how
'covering up' can cause a problem - other than maybe when it comes to ID
checks. That can be worked around.
Of course, there is the question of the woman being free to decide how
she dresses. Obviously we shouldn't be condoning any coercion but how do
we know if it is happening?
Which of course is the problem area not least because 'free' can mean a
number of things as what I have posted above demonstrates.
Post by Brian Reay
There isn't an easy answer and balancing the woman's right to chose to
wear the clothes she feels reflects her religious convictions and
ensuring she is free to make that choice by removing it. We may not
understand her convictions but, in this area, they aren't harming us so
we should try to accept them.
I do not think women who cover up should be discriminated against any
more than anyone else wearing inappropriate clothing for a particular
situation are.
I would however like to see a cultural change in these communities.
So, you'd do nothing at all?
What would you suggest?
A bit like in Netherlands or Denmark, a ban in public places, including
schools, hospitals, government buildings, public transport, airports,
courtrooms etc. I'd include anywhere that commercial transactions take
place, like shops and banks, and anywhere else where ordinary people
might reasonable expect their faces to be visible, ie most places if not
all where there are CCTV cameras.

So, everywhere really except in the privacy of their own homes.

I really do think it would break down barriers and encourage
integration, despite any initial squeals from the fundamentalists.
Gareth
2018-08-06 19:27:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Anyway, Boris has said this -
"If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to cover their
faces, then I totally agree - and I would add that I can find no
scriptural authority for the practice in the Koran.
I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people
should choose to go around looking like letter boxes."
There are various people claiming that he is "pandering to the far
right" but that cannot be correct because I am a liberal and as a
liberal I do not think it is right to see a man in shorts and a tee-
shirt while his wife is covered from head to foot in black.
Others claim he is "promoting Islamophobia" but surely the burka itself
is what is doing the promoting, not calls for it to be banished.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45083275
Don'tcha just love all this wishy-washy liberal, fence-sitting,
hand-wringing angst?
"I don't like it, but I don't want to do anything about it, but if I
don't then it then it will continue, but I don't like it ...." ad infinitum.
Come off the fence, imagine you're the government, say what should be
done.  Something?  Nothing?  What?
This is a discussion forum, not a self-pity group.
It isn't a simple problem.
I agree.
Post by Brian Reay
There is nothing in the Koran which specifies the strict dress some
woman wear. There is mention of 'modesty' but that in itself doesn't
automatically mean 'cover up', it can also mean 'don't stand out'. That
was explained to me by a Muslim.
I am listening to this being discussed on the radio and one caller has
just said that her father taught her and her sister that if they did not
cover their hair they would go to hell for being immodest.
She no longer covers up as she has broken away from the religion but her
sister is still adamant that what her father taught her was correct,
because he is their father.
Post by Brian Reay
Likewise, if a women wishes to dress in a certain way, why should others
prevent it- unless it causes them some problem? I can't see how
'covering up' can cause a problem - other than maybe when it comes to ID
checks. That can be worked around.
Of course, there is the question of the woman being free to decide how
she dresses. Obviously we shouldn't be condoning any coercion but how do
we know if it is happening?
Which of course is the problem area not least because 'free' can mean a
number of things as what I have posted above demonstrates.
Post by Brian Reay
There isn't an easy answer and balancing the woman's right to chose to
wear the clothes she feels reflects her religious convictions and
ensuring she is free to make that choice by removing it.  We may not
understand her convictions but, in this area, they aren't harming us so
we should try to accept them.
I do not think women who cover up should be discriminated against any
more than anyone else wearing inappropriate clothing for a particular
situation are.
I would however like to see a cultural change in these communities.
So, you'd do nothing at all?
You clearly see problems.  How does doing nothing help to solve them
It may not solve the problem but trying to force change could make
things a lot worse.
Norman Wells
2018-08-06 20:51:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I do not think women who cover up should be discriminated against any
more than anyone else wearing inappropriate clothing for a particular
situation are.
I would however like to see a cultural change in these communities.
So, you'd do nothing at all?
You clearly see problems.  How does doing nothing help to solve them
It may not solve the problem but trying to force change could make
things a lot worse.
What would be made worse, and how would it manifest iself?

Are you scared of something?
Gareth
2018-08-06 21:51:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I do not think women who cover up should be discriminated
against any more than anyone else wearing inappropriate
clothing for a particular situation are.
I would however like to see a cultural change in these
communities.
So, you'd do nothing at all?
You clearly see problems. How does doing nothing help to solve
them
It may not solve the problem but trying to force change could make
things a lot worse.
What would be made worse, and how would it manifest iself?
Increased tension between Muslims and non-Muslims which would play into
the hands of violent extremists on both sides.
Post by Norman Wells
Are you scared of something?
I don't think scared is the right word but I'm concerned that this
country is becoming more and more divided and intolerant. Do you disagree?
Norman Wells
2018-08-06 22:04:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gareth
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I do not think women who cover up should be discriminated
against any more than anyone else wearing inappropriate
clothing for a particular situation are.
I would however like to see a cultural change in these
communities.
So, you'd do nothing at all?
You clearly see problems.  How does doing nothing help to solve them
It may not solve the problem but trying to force change could make
things a lot worse.
What would be made worse, and how would it manifest iself?
Increased tension between Muslims and non-Muslims which would play into
the hands of violent extremists on both sides.
Post by Norman Wells
Are you scared of something?
I don't think scared is the right word but I'm concerned that this
country is becoming more and more divided and intolerant.  Do you disagree?
I don't think we should be held hostage by threats of violence if we do
what we think is right but they don't. Do you?
Gareth
2018-08-06 22:14:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I do not think women who cover up should be discriminated
against any more than anyone else wearing inappropriate
clothing for a particular situation are.
I would however like to see a cultural change in these
communities.
So, you'd do nothing at all?
You clearly see problems.  How does doing nothing help to solve them
It may not solve the problem but trying to force change could make
things a lot worse.
What would be made worse, and how would it manifest iself?
Increased tension between Muslims and non-Muslims which would play into
the hands of violent extremists on both sides.
Post by Norman Wells
Are you scared of something?
I don't think scared is the right word but I'm concerned that this
country is becoming more and more divided and intolerant.  Do you disagree?
I don't think we should be held hostage by threats of violence if we do
what we think is right but they don't.  Do you?
I don't think forcing our social conventions on other cultures is right
if it isn't doing any harm.
Brian Reay
2018-08-07 06:45:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gareth
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I do not think women who cover up should be discriminated
against any more than anyone else wearing inappropriate
clothing for a particular situation are.
I would however like to see a cultural change in these
communities.
So, you'd do nothing at all?
You clearly see problems.  How does doing nothing help to solve them
It may not solve the problem but trying to force change could make
things a lot worse.
What would be made worse, and how would it manifest iself?
Increased tension between Muslims and non-Muslims which would play into
the hands of violent extremists on both sides.
Post by Norman Wells
Are you scared of something?
I don't think scared is the right word but I'm concerned that this
country is becoming more and more divided and intolerant.  Do you disagree?
I don't think we should be held hostage by threats of violence if we
do what we think is right but they don't.  Do you?
I don't think forcing our social conventions on other cultures is right
if it isn't doing any harm.
That is a very good point.

If we end up forcing Muslim women who want to cover the head/faces etc
follow our conventions, we are doing exactly what we are supposedly
trying to stamp out.

I'm not suggesting that all Muslim women choose to cover their faces nor
that many aren't forced to do so and clearly that shouldn't be tolerated.

The problem is, how do we determine who covers up from choice and who is
forced?

Boris's comments are not remotely helpful. There are countless every day
Muslims who will be offended by his nonsense which can only help those
who hide behind Islam as an excuse for violence.
--
Suspect someone is claiming a benefit under false pretences? Incapacity
Benefit or Personal Independence Payment when they don't need it? They
are depriving those in real need!

https://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud
Norman Wells
2018-08-07 08:09:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Gareth
Post by Norman Wells
I don't think we should be held hostage by threats of violence if we
do what we think is right but they don't.  Do you?
I don't think forcing our social conventions on other cultures is
right if it isn't doing any harm.
That is a very good point.
If we end up  forcing Muslim women who want to cover the head/faces etc
follow our conventions, we are doing exactly what we are supposedly
trying to stamp out.
I'm not suggesting that all Muslim women choose to cover their faces nor
that many aren't forced to do so and clearly that shouldn't be tolerated.
So, what should we *do* about it?

How can we do anything about it if not by new law?
Post by Brian Reay
The problem is, how do we determine who covers up from choice and who is
forced?
I start from the position that no free woman chooses freely to cover up.
It stems only from one religious and cultural group. And that group
is a very male dominated and male domineering one. If women from that
group say they cover up because it's their free choice, I say they've
been coerced or brainwashed into saying that, like members of other
strange male-dominated cults often do. We act to liberate such members,
and clearly think that's a good thing.

I see a difference here only in terms of scale.
Post by Brian Reay
Boris's comments are not remotely helpful. There are countless every day
Muslims who will be offended by his nonsense which can only help those
who hide behind Islam as an excuse for violence.
So, we shouldn't do something that's right because of fear of violence?

That's just cowardice, isn't it?
Pamela
2018-08-07 12:11:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Gareth
Post by Norman Wells
I don't think we should be held hostage by threats of violence
if we do what we think is right but they don't.  Do you?
I don't think forcing our social conventions on other cultures
is right if it isn't doing any harm.
That is a very good point.
If we end up  forcing Muslim women who want to cover the
head/faces etc follow our conventions, we are doing exactly what
we are supposedly trying to stamp out.
I'm not suggesting that all Muslim women choose to cover their
faces nor that many aren't forced to do so and clearly that
shouldn't be tolerated.
So, what should we *do* about it?
How can we do anything about it if not by new law?
Post by Brian Reay
The problem is, how do we determine who covers up from choice and
who is forced?
I start from the position that no free woman chooses freely to
cover up. It stems only from one religious and cultural group.
And that group is a very male dominated and male domineering one.
If women from that group say they cover up because it's their free
choice, I say they've been coerced or brainwashed into saying
that, like members of other strange male-dominated cults often do.
We act to liberate such members, and clearly think that's a good
thing.
I see a difference here only in terms of scale.
Post by Brian Reay
Boris's comments are not remotely helpful. There are countless
every day Muslims who will be offended by his nonsense which can
only help those who hide behind Islam as an excuse for violence.
So, we shouldn't do something that's right because of fear of
violence?
That's just cowardice, isn't it?
Four great troll questions that have little purpose other than to
spin this into a lengthy argument. Will Brian bite?
Yellow
2018-08-07 12:49:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Gareth
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I do not think women who cover up should be discriminated
against any more than anyone else wearing inappropriate
clothing for a particular situation are.
I would however like to see a cultural change in these
communities.
So, you'd do nothing at all?
You clearly see problems.  How does doing nothing help to solve them
It may not solve the problem but trying to force change could make
things a lot worse.
What would be made worse, and how would it manifest iself?
Increased tension between Muslims and non-Muslims which would play into
the hands of violent extremists on both sides.
Post by Norman Wells
Are you scared of something?
I don't think scared is the right word but I'm concerned that this
country is becoming more and more divided and intolerant.  Do you disagree?
I don't think we should be held hostage by threats of violence if we
do what we think is right but they don't.  Do you?
I don't think forcing our social conventions on other cultures is right
if it isn't doing any harm.
That is a very good point.
If we end up forcing Muslim women who want to cover the head/faces etc
follow our conventions, we are doing exactly what we are supposedly
trying to stamp out.
I'm not suggesting that all Muslim women choose to cover their faces nor
that many aren't forced to do so and clearly that shouldn't be tolerated.
The problem is, how do we determine who covers up from choice and who is
forced?
Boris's comments are not remotely helpful. There are countless every day
Muslims who will be offended by his nonsense which can only help those
who hide behind Islam as an excuse for violence.
Boris was actually defending women's right to wear a burka.
Norman Wells
2018-08-07 07:54:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gareth
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I do not think women who cover up should be discriminated
against any more than anyone else wearing inappropriate
clothing for a particular situation are.
I would however like to see a cultural change in these
communities.
So, you'd do nothing at all?
You clearly see problems.  How does doing nothing help to solve them
It may not solve the problem but trying to force change could make
things a lot worse.
What would be made worse, and how would it manifest iself?
Increased tension between Muslims and non-Muslims which would play into
the hands of violent extremists on both sides.
Post by Norman Wells
Are you scared of something?
I don't think scared is the right word but I'm concerned that this
country is becoming more and more divided and intolerant.  Do you disagree?
I don't think we should be held hostage by threats of violence if we
do what we think is right but they don't.  Do you?
I don't think forcing our social conventions on other cultures is right
if it isn't doing any harm.
But you said above 'It may not solve the problem'. You clearly
therefore see a problem. And problems cause harm; it's in their nature.

What should we do to solve it?
Pamela
2018-08-07 12:12:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I do not think women who cover up should be discriminated
against any more than anyone else wearing inappropriate
clothing for a particular situation are.
I would however like to see a cultural change in these
communities.
So, you'd do nothing at all?
You clearly see problems.  How does doing nothing help to solve them
It may not solve the problem but trying to force change could
make things a lot worse.
What would be made worse, and how would it manifest iself?
Increased tension between Muslims and non-Muslims which would
play into the hands of violent extremists on both sides.
Post by Norman Wells
Are you scared of something?
I don't think scared is the right word but I'm concerned that
this country is becoming more and more divided and intolerant. 
Do you disagree?
I don't think we should be held hostage by threats of violence
if we do what we think is right but they don't.  Do you?
I don't think forcing our social conventions on other cultures is
right if it isn't doing any harm.
But you said above 'It may not solve the problem'. You clearly
therefore see a problem. And problems cause harm; it's in their nature.
What should we do to solve it?
Why did you ask that leading question?
Norman Wells
2018-08-06 17:53:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Anyway, Boris has said this -
"If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to cover their
faces, then I totally agree - and I would add that I can find no
scriptural authority for the practice in the Koran.
I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people
should choose to go around looking like letter boxes."
There are various people claiming that he is "pandering to the far
right" but that cannot be correct because I am a liberal and as a
liberal I do not think it is right to see a man in shorts and a tee-
shirt while his wife is covered from head to foot in black.
Others claim he is "promoting Islamophobia" but surely the burka itself
is what is doing the promoting, not calls for it to be banished.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45083275
Don'tcha just love all this wishy-washy liberal, fence-sitting,
hand-wringing angst?
"I don't like it, but I don't want to do anything about it, but if I
don't then it then it will continue, but I don't like it ...." ad infinitum.
Come off the fence, imagine you're the government, say what should be
done.  Something?  Nothing?  What?
This is a discussion forum, not a self-pity group.
It isn't a simple problem.
It's just a matter of deciding yes or no. In that sense it's a very
easy problem, because there's no possible 'third way' or compromise
solution to consider.
Post by Brian Reay
There is nothing in the Koran which specifies the strict dress some
woman wear. There is mention of 'modesty' but that in itself doesn't
automatically mean 'cover up', it can also mean 'don't stand out'. That
was explained to me by a Muslim.
Likewise, if a women wishes to dress in a certain way, why should others
prevent it- unless it causes them some problem?
Well, we do already of course. If a woman decided to do her supermarket
shopping naked, the likelihood is she'd either be escorted off the
premises, or be arrested. So, we've already conceded the principle that
someone should be allowed to wear exactly what they choose without any
interference.
Post by Brian Reay
I can't see how 'covering up' can cause a problem
Does nakedness cause a problem? It seems to, because of the reactions
I've just described.

The problem covering up causes is that it hinders everyone else in
communicating with the person covered up. Communication isn't just
verbal, but relies as well on non-verbal facial signals, like smiles for
example. If you remove those, people generally feel uncomfortable and
at a disadvantage when dealing with them.
Post by Brian Reay
- other than maybe when it comes to ID
checks. That can be worked around.
And anywhere there is CCTV? I don't think that can be worked around
except by law.
Post by Brian Reay
Of course, there is the question of the woman being free to decide how
she dresses. Obviously we shouldn't be condoning any coercion but how do
we know if it is happening?
You judge by facial expression.

Yes, I know, so no need to say it.
Post by Brian Reay
There isn't an easy answer and balancing the woman's right to chose to
wear the clothes she feels reflects her religious convictions and
ensuring she is free to make that choice by removing it.  We may not
understand her convictions but, in this area, they aren't harming us so
we should try to accept them.
I disagree. I think it's a barrier to proper integration.
Fredxx
2018-08-06 18:19:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Brian Reay
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Anyway, Boris has said this -
"If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to cover their
faces, then I totally agree - and I would add that I can find no
scriptural authority for the practice in the Koran.
I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people
should choose to go around looking like letter boxes."
There are various people claiming that he is "pandering to the far
right" but that cannot be correct because I am a liberal and as a
liberal I do not think it is right to see a man in shorts and a tee-
shirt while his wife is covered from head to foot in black.
Others claim he is "promoting Islamophobia" but surely the burka itself
is what is doing the promoting, not calls for it to be banished.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45083275
Don'tcha just love all this wishy-washy liberal, fence-sitting,
hand-wringing angst?
"I don't like it, but I don't want to do anything about it, but if I
don't then it then it will continue, but I don't like it ...." ad infinitum.
Come off the fence, imagine you're the government, say what should be
done.  Something?  Nothing?  What?
This is a discussion forum, not a self-pity group.
It isn't a simple problem.
There is nothing in the Koran which specifies the strict dress some
woman wear. There is mention of 'modesty' but that in itself doesn't
automatically mean 'cover up', it can also mean 'don't stand out'. That
was explained to me by a Muslim.
Likewise, if a women wishes to dress in a certain way, why should others
prevent it- unless it causes them some problem? I can't see how
'covering up' can cause a problem - other than maybe when it comes to ID
checks. That can be worked around.
Of course, there is the question of the woman being free to decide how
she dresses. Obviously we shouldn't be condoning any coercion but how do
we know if it is happening?
There isn't an easy answer and balancing the woman's right to chose to
wear the clothes she feels reflects her religious convictions and
ensuring she is free to make that choice by removing it.  We may not
understand her convictions but, in this area, they aren't harming us so
we should try to accept them.
If I was free to wear a full face motorcycle helmet into a bank, I would
agree that women should be free to entirely cover their faces as well.

Until I am allowed to cover my face, when and where I choose, I see no
reason why anyone else should have that right.
Jethro_uk
2018-08-06 16:24:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Anyway, Boris has said this -
"If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to cover their
faces, then I totally agree - and I would add that I can find no
scriptural authority for the practice in the Koran.
I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people
should choose to go around looking like letter boxes."
There are various people claiming that he is "pandering to the far
right" but that cannot be correct because I am a liberal and as a
liberal I do not think it is right to see a man in shorts and a tee-
shirt while his wife is covered from head to foot in black.
Others claim he is "promoting Islamophobia" but surely the burka itself
is what is doing the promoting, not calls for it to be banished.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45083275
But there are some women who *deliberately* chose to wear them. Possibly
in some attempt to comment on the suggestion that they shouldn't ...

I have no problem with people choosing to wear what they want. As long as
(and this is where the rub *always* comes) they have no problem with me
having an opinion on that choice.

By all means wear your face covering in court. But don't be upset if I
can't believe your testimony.
Yellow
2018-08-06 16:52:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <pk9soe$s0o$***@dont-email.me>, ***@hotmailbin.com
says...
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Anyway, Boris has said this -
"If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to cover their
faces, then I totally agree - and I would add that I can find no
scriptural authority for the practice in the Koran.
I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people
should choose to go around looking like letter boxes."
There are various people claiming that he is "pandering to the far
right" but that cannot be correct because I am a liberal and as a
liberal I do not think it is right to see a man in shorts and a tee-
shirt while his wife is covered from head to foot in black.
Others claim he is "promoting Islamophobia" but surely the burka itself
is what is doing the promoting, not calls for it to be banished.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45083275
But there are some women who *deliberately* chose to wear them. Possibly
in some attempt to comment on the suggestion that they shouldn't ...
In which case that is fine I guess, although I am reluctant in that view
because I think they are doing a disservice to those who feel they have
no choice.
Post by Jethro_uk
I have no problem with people choosing to wear what they want. As long as
(and this is where the rub *always* comes) they have no problem with me
having an opinion on that choice.
Where as my main concerns are for the women 'forced' to wear this garb.
Post by Jethro_uk
By all means wear your face covering in court. But don't be upset if I
can't believe your testimony.
While of course this is a real issue, it is pretty low down on my list
of worries as there are ways around it.
The Todal
2018-08-06 17:32:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Anyway, Boris has said this -
"If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to cover their
faces, then I totally agree - and I would add that I can find no
scriptural authority for the practice in the Koran.
I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people
should choose to go around looking like letter boxes."
There are various people claiming that he is "pandering to the far
right" but that cannot be correct because I am a liberal and as a
liberal I do not think it is right to see a man in shorts and a tee-
shirt while his wife is covered from head to foot in black.
Others claim he is "promoting Islamophobia" but surely the burka itself
is what is doing the promoting, not calls for it to be banished.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45083275
Many women in Europe choose to wear burquas or hijabs. And only if they
are somehow compelled by their menfolk or their priests to adopt this
form of dress, should there be any cause for concern.

I think it's rather worse that so many women feel under pressure to wear
skimpy clothing showing their breasts or bums with only a string of
fabric to denote that they aren't naked. And that many women feel under
pressure to have their body hair removed, including around the pubic
region. Failure to comply with modern fashions will often get them
taunted and mocked on social media sites.

The muslim-style letter box mode of dress signifies "you don't have the
right to ogle me, I prefer to show my body only to those people whom I
care about. If you don't like it, tough luck" or words to that effect. I
respect that attitude.
Yellow
2018-08-06 18:08:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@icloud.com
says...
Post by The Todal
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Anyway, Boris has said this -
"If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to cover their
faces, then I totally agree - and I would add that I can find no
scriptural authority for the practice in the Koran.
I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people
should choose to go around looking like letter boxes."
There are various people claiming that he is "pandering to the far
right" but that cannot be correct because I am a liberal and as a
liberal I do not think it is right to see a man in shorts and a tee-
shirt while his wife is covered from head to foot in black.
Others claim he is "promoting Islamophobia" but surely the burka itself
is what is doing the promoting, not calls for it to be banished.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45083275
Many women in Europe choose to wear burquas or hijabs.
We know that many women wear them, we do not however know that many
choose to - which is a problem because it is the main argument that
allows those that are forced to continue to be forced.
Post by The Todal
And only if they
are somehow compelled by their menfolk or their priests to adopt this
form of dress, should there be any cause for concern.
I am not totally convinced any women wears these clothes completely of
their free will and because the pressure you refer to in your next
paragraph surely applies to the burka and hijab also.
Post by The Todal
I think it's rather worse that so many women feel under pressure to wear
skimpy clothing showing their breasts or bums with only a string of
fabric to denote that they aren't naked. And that many women feel under
pressure to have their body hair removed, including around the pubic
region. Failure to comply with modern fashions will often get them
taunted and mocked on social media sites.
I am not going to argue with most of that and live a life of total
bemusement at the way some people, mainly women, dress - or rather how
little some wear. And with the very young girls, I actually find it
distressing on their behalf.

But that is a little different from wearing a burka for one reason alone
and that is because the women you above describe re clothing above tend
to do it because they think it will attract a man where as the burka is
worn because she is the property of men. The former makes me roll my
eyes, but the latter makes me *extremely* uncomfortable.

I have not included the hair removal in my above comments because I
think the modern reasons for removing fanny hair, as against old
fashioned personal comfort and hygiene, are because of porn - which is a
whole other conversation.
Post by The Todal
The muslim-style letter box mode of dress signifies "you don't have the
right to ogle me, I prefer to show my body only to those people whom I
care about.
It is actually -> you must not ogle my woman.
Post by The Todal
If you don't like it, tough luck" or words to that effect. I
respect that attitude.
So would I, if it was right. Which I do not believe it is.
Norman Wells
2018-08-06 18:18:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Todal
Many women in Europe choose to wear burquas or hijabs. And only if they
are somehow compelled by their menfolk or their priests to adopt this
form of dress, should there be any cause for concern.
It's *all* coercion of one sort or another, whether parental, cultural
or religious.

The fact that it's only found in one religion and one culture is proof
of that. It's not something anyone outside those that any woman chooses
to do.

Except eskimos of course. And they have their reasons.
Post by The Todal
I think it's rather worse that so many women feel under pressure to wear
skimpy clothing showing their breasts or bums with only a string of
fabric to denote that they aren't naked. And that many women feel under
pressure to have their body hair removed, including around the pubic
region. Failure to comply with modern fashions will often get them
taunted and mocked on social media sites.
You clearly move in much stranger circles than I do.
Post by The Todal
The muslim-style letter box mode of dress signifies "you don't have the
right to ogle me, I prefer to show my body only to those people whom I
care about. If you don't like it, tough luck" or words to that effect. I
respect that attitude.
I don't. I think it's disrespectful to others in the UK community.

Besides, we're only talking about uncovering the face, so I think you're
exaggerating somewhat.
pensive hamster
2018-08-06 19:06:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Many women in Europe choose to wear burquas or hijabs. And only if they
are somehow compelled by their menfolk or their priests to adopt this
form of dress, should there be any cause for concern.
It's *all* coercion of one sort or another, whether parental, cultural
or religious.
The fact that it's only found in one religion and one culture is proof
of that. It's not something anyone outside those that any woman chooses
to do.
This source reckons it's a Jewish tradition:

https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/blog/2017/4/9/egypt-lawmaker-calls-for-total-ban-of-jewish-burqa

An Egyptian lawmaker has said members of parliament are drafting
a law that would ban women from wearing the burqa in government
institutions after alleging the Islamic full-face veil was a
"Jewish tradition".

Amna Nosseir said on Sunday that the proposed ban would be in the
best interest of Egyptian society and that she has been battling against
the burqa over the past 40 years.

The London-based newspaper Asharq al-Awsat reported on Saturday,
citing unnamed sources in parliament, that several lawmakers were
working on drafting the burqa ban.

Nosseir, who wears the hijab, said on Wednesday that the burqa -
known in Arabic as the niqab - had its origins in Jewish religious law.

"In the Old Testament, you find in chapter 38 that the Jewish religious
authorities tell you that if Jewish women leave the house without
covering the face and head then they are breaking Jewish religious law,"
the lawmaker said during an interview with local media.

"I have gathered around 20 texts by Jewish religious authorities that
completely forbid women from showing their faces and heads," Nosseir
said while discussing also banning female university students from
wearing "ripped jeans" in lectures.

She added that this part of Jewish law became entrenched in pre-Islamic
Arab tribes of the Arabian Peninsula and then spread throughout the
Middle East with the Muslim conquests.

The verse the lawmaker could be referring to is Genesis 38, where a
biblical figure encounters his daughter-in-law in the street and mistakes
her for a prostitute because she had covered her face with a veil. ...
The Todal
2018-08-06 21:06:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Many women in Europe choose to wear burquas or hijabs. And only if
they are somehow compelled by their menfolk or their priests to adopt
this form of dress, should there be any cause for concern.
It's *all* coercion of one sort or another, whether parental, cultural
or religious.
Well, that's on a par with "the entire jewish community condemns Corbyn"
- a foolish generalisation based on the flimsiest of evidence because it
suits your point of view.

You may choose to see women as helpless simpletons at the mercy of
bullying patriarchs in their communities, even if they were born and
bred in the UK or the USA and see themselves as free to make choices.
You can choose to see Muslims as all of the same kind whether they live
in Saudi Arabia or London.

You could read up on it some more. But only if you want your prejudices
challenged. Don't bother if you're happy with your prejudices.

https://www.glamourmagazine.co.uk/article/women-reveal-why-they-choose-to-wear-a-hijab

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/why-i-wear-the-hijab-i-want-people-to-really-hear-me-and-really-see-me

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/02/hijab-girls-ofsted-headscarves-british-values

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/video/2015/jun/24/hijab-not-oppression-feminist-statement-video
Norman Wells
2018-08-06 21:51:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Many women in Europe choose to wear burquas or hijabs. And only if
they are somehow compelled by their menfolk or their priests to adopt
this form of dress, should there be any cause for concern.
It's *all* coercion of one sort or another, whether parental, cultural
or religious.
Well, that's on a par with "the entire jewish community condemns Corbyn"
- a foolish generalisation based on the flimsiest of evidence because it
suits your point of view.
You may choose to see women as helpless simpletons at the mercy of
bullying patriarchs in their communities, even if they were born and
bred in the UK or the USA and see themselves as free to make choices.
You can choose to see Muslims as all of the same kind whether they live
in Saudi Arabia or London.
It's telling that *only* those from a particular religious and cultural
background cover up. I take it from that that it's normal practice,
behaviour and natural desire, given a free choice, not to.

I therefore conclude that those who do, even if they protest it's their
free choice like some members of other weird religious cults, have been
subject to some coercion, often amounting to brainwashing. It's not
actually their free choice at all, and we should not pander to it.

Maybe we'd be doing a liberating favour if we banned it.
pensive hamster
2018-08-06 22:42:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Monday, 6 August 2018 22:51:43 UTC+1, Norman Wells wrote:
[...]
Post by Norman Wells
It's telling that *only* those from a particular religious and cultural
background cover up.
I hate to inconvenience your theory with facts, but:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_burqa_sect

'The Haredi burqa sect, is a religious group within Haredi Judaism,
primarily concentrated in Israel, which claims that modesty requires
a burqa-style covering of a woman's entire body, a shal (plural shalim,
"shawl"), including a veil covering the face. ...The group, which was
estimated to number around 100 in 2008 and several hundred in 2011,
is concentrated in the town of Beit Shemesh.'
Norman Wells
2018-08-07 08:13:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by Norman Wells
It's telling that *only* those from a particular religious and cultural
background cover up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_burqa_sect
'The Haredi burqa sect, is a religious group within Haredi Judaism,
primarily concentrated in Israel, which claims that modesty requires
a burqa-style covering of a woman's entire body, a shal (plural shalim,
"shawl"), including a veil covering the face. ...The group, which was
estimated to number around 100 in 2008 and several hundred in 2011,
is concentrated in the town of Beit Shemesh.'
Oh, Lord alive, they're just a tiny, weird little sect that needs
obliterating. Anyway, our laws here can't do anything about them.

Whatever next, eskimoes?
pensive hamster
2018-08-07 14:35:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by Norman Wells
It's telling that *only* those from a particular religious and cultural
background cover up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_burqa_sect
'The Haredi burqa sect, is a religious group within Haredi Judaism,
primarily concentrated in Israel, which claims that modesty requires
a burqa-style covering of a woman's entire body, a shal (plural shalim,
"shawl"), including a veil covering the face. ...The group, which was
estimated to number around 100 in 2008 and several hundred in 2011,
is concentrated in the town of Beit Shemesh.'
Oh, Lord alive, they're just a tiny, weird little sect that needs
obliterating. Anyway, our laws here can't do anything about them.
"needs obliterating" ?? Steady on, old chap, you'll have the
anti-anti-semites after you.

Anyway, my point was just to show that your claim that
"*only* those from a particular religious and cultural
background cover up" was not actually correct.
Post by Norman Wells
Whatever next, eskimoes?
Pamela
2018-08-07 16:51:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by Norman Wells
It's telling that *only* those from a particular religious and
cultural background cover up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_burqa_sect
'The Haredi burqa sect, is a religious group within Haredi
Judaism, primarily concentrated in Israel, which claims that
modesty requires a burqa-style covering of a woman's entire
body, a shal (plural shalim, "shawl"), including a veil
covering the face. ...The group, which was estimated to number
around 100 in 2008 and several hundred in 2011, is concentrated
in the town of Beit Shemesh.'
Oh, Lord alive, they're just a tiny, weird little sect that needs
obliterating. Anyway, our laws here can't do anything about
them.
"needs obliterating" ?? Steady on, old chap, you'll have the
anti-anti-semites after you.
Anyway, my point was just to show that your claim that
"*only* those from a particular religious and cultural
background cover up" was not actually correct.
He's trying to deflect attention from being corrected by you.
Gareth
2018-08-06 21:28:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Why do you find it heart breaking? Is it heart breaking that a Western
woman isn't allowed to go topless in the local swimming pool but her
husband is?

Suppose I go swimming with my wife and kids and my daughter says it's
not fair that she has to cover her chest when her brother doesn't. If I
forbid her to go topless am I a controlling male bully or a moral
guardian upholding standards of decency?

Suppose we are going to a wedding and my son wants to wear tracksuit
bottoms, trainers and a t-shirt. Am I wrong to make him were a suit?

Their culture says it's wrong to go out without a burka, our culture
says women can't go out topless. Neither convention makes any logical
sense and I think the only reason we find the latter acceptable but not
the former is because that's how we were brought up.
Post by Yellow
Anyway, Boris has said this -
"If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to cover their
faces, then I totally agree - and I would add that I can find no
scriptural authority for the practice in the Koran.
I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people
should choose to go around looking like letter boxes."
There are various people claiming that he is "pandering to the far
right" but that cannot be correct because I am a liberal and as a
liberal I do not think it is right to see a man in shorts and a tee-
shirt while his wife is covered from head to foot in black.
How do you know that the woman didn't choose to dress like that? Maybe
she didn't but you don't know, do you?

There may well be practical advantages to dressing like that, e.g.
protection from sunburn. Not having to worry about shaving your legs or
people being able to see that you've been eating too many cakes and not
going to the gym.

I can see the advantages. Imagine if you've just got out of bed and go
to make a cup of tea and find there's no milk. Just chuck your burka on
and pop to the local Coop. Compare that to what your liberated Western
woman has to do if she doesn't want to be considered a scruffy chav by
the neighbours.
Post by Yellow
Others claim he is "promoting Islamophobia" but surely the burka itself
is what is doing the promoting, not calls for it to be banished.
In reality I expect he is promoting himself. It's been a few days since
he was last in the news so he needed to say something controversial.
Another small, but carefully planned, step on the long path to No. 10.

Actually, I think he's basically said he doesn't like women to wear
burkas but doesn't want to ban burkas in public places. In other words
he has his opinion but doesn't want to force it on others. That seems
sensible to me.
Norman Wells
2018-08-06 22:01:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Why do you find it heart breaking? Is it heart breaking that a Western
woman isn't allowed to go topless in the local swimming pool but her
husband is?
Suppose I go swimming with my wife and kids and my daughter says it's
not fair that she has to cover her chest when her brother doesn't. If I
forbid her to go topless am I a controlling male bully or a moral
guardian upholding standards of decency?
Suppose we are going to a wedding and my son wants to wear tracksuit
bottoms, trainers and a t-shirt.  Am I wrong to make him were a suit?
Children are a different case from adults.
Post by Gareth
Their culture says it's wrong to go out without a burka, our culture
says women can't go out topless.  Neither convention makes any logical
sense and I think the only reason we find the latter acceptable but not
the former is because that's how we were brought up.
Quite so. What you're saying is that people already do not have free
choice in what they wear. There is no such principle that we therefore
have to uphold. We *can* make dress rules as we see fit. We *can* make
rules if we like to ban covering up.
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
Anyway, Boris has said this -
"If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to cover their
faces, then I totally agree - and I would add that I can find no
scriptural authority for the practice in the Koran.
I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people
should choose to go around looking like letter boxes."
There are various people claiming that he is "pandering to the far
right" but that cannot be correct because I am a liberal and as a
liberal I do not think it is right to see a man in shorts and a tee-
shirt while his wife is covered from head to foot in black.
How do you know that the woman didn't choose to dress like that?  Maybe
she didn't but you don't know, do you?
There may well be practical advantages to dressing like that, e.g.
protection from sunburn.  Not having to worry about shaving your legs or
people being able to see that you've been eating too many cakes and not
going to the gym.
I can see the advantages.  Imagine if you've just got out of bed and go
to make a cup of tea and find there's no milk.  Just chuck your burka on
and pop to the local Coop. Compare that to what your liberated Western
woman has to do if she doesn't want to be considered a scruffy chav by
the neighbours.
Post by Yellow
Others claim he is "promoting Islamophobia" but surely the burka itself
is what is doing the promoting, not calls for it to be banished.
In reality I expect he is promoting himself.  It's been a few days since
he was last in the news so he needed to say something controversial.
Another small, but carefully planned, step on the long path to No. 10.
Actually, I think he's basically said he doesn't like women to wear
burkas but doesn't want to ban burkas in public places.  In other words
he has his opinion but doesn't want to force it on others.  That seems
sensible to me.
He's scared to have a view. That's the truth.
Gareth
2018-08-06 22:32:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Why do you find it heart breaking? Is it heart breaking that a Western
woman isn't allowed to go topless in the local swimming pool but her
husband is?
Suppose I go swimming with my wife and kids and my daughter says it's
not fair that she has to cover her chest when her brother doesn't. If
I forbid her to go topless am I a controlling male bully or a moral
guardian upholding standards of decency?
Suppose we are going to a wedding and my son wants to wear tracksuit
bottoms, trainers and a t-shirt.  Am I wrong to make him were a suit?
Children are a different case from adults.
Post by Gareth
Their culture says it's wrong to go out without a burka, our culture
says women can't go out topless.  Neither convention makes any logical
sense and I think the only reason we find the latter acceptable but
not the former is because that's how we were brought up.
Quite so.  What you're saying is that people already do not have free
choice in what they wear.  There is no such principle that we therefore
have to uphold.  We *can* make dress rules as we see fit.  We *can* make
rules if we like to ban covering up.
I agree that a law could be introduced if it had enough support in the
House of Commons, and given that the House of Commons is supposed to
represent the British people, then I suppose "we" could if "we" wanted
to. However don't forget that "we" includes many Muslims and liberals,
so "we" may not want to.
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
Anyway, Boris has said this -
"If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to cover their
faces, then I totally agree - and I would add that I can find no
scriptural authority for the practice in the Koran.
I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people
should choose to go around looking like letter boxes."
There are various people claiming that he is "pandering to the far
right" but that cannot be correct because I am a liberal and as a
liberal I do not think it is right to see a man in shorts and a tee-
shirt while his wife is covered from head to foot in black.
How do you know that the woman didn't choose to dress like that?
Maybe she didn't but you don't know, do you?
There may well be practical advantages to dressing like that, e.g.
protection from sunburn.  Not having to worry about shaving your legs
or people being able to see that you've been eating too many cakes and
not going to the gym.
I can see the advantages.  Imagine if you've just got out of bed and
go to make a cup of tea and find there's no milk.  Just chuck your
burka on and pop to the local Coop. Compare that to what your
liberated Western woman has to do if she doesn't want to be considered
a scruffy chav by the neighbours.
Post by Yellow
Others claim he is "promoting Islamophobia" but surely the burka itself
is what is doing the promoting, not calls for it to be banished.
In reality I expect he is promoting himself.  It's been a few days
since he was last in the news so he needed to say something
controversial. Another small, but carefully planned, step on the long
path to No. 10.
Actually, I think he's basically said he doesn't like women to wear
burkas but doesn't want to ban burkas in public places.  In other
words he has his opinion but doesn't want to force it on others.  That
seems sensible to me.
He's scared to have a view.  That's the truth.
He has expressed a view in public. How can you say he is scared to have
a view?
Norman Wells
2018-08-07 07:43:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gareth
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Why do you find it heart breaking? Is it heart breaking that a
Western woman isn't allowed to go topless in the local swimming pool
but her husband is?
Suppose I go swimming with my wife and kids and my daughter says it's
not fair that she has to cover her chest when her brother doesn't. If
I forbid her to go topless am I a controlling male bully or a moral
guardian upholding standards of decency?
Suppose we are going to a wedding and my son wants to wear tracksuit
bottoms, trainers and a t-shirt.  Am I wrong to make him were a suit?
Children are a different case from adults.
Post by Gareth
Their culture says it's wrong to go out without a burka, our culture
says women can't go out topless.  Neither convention makes any
logical sense and I think the only reason we find the latter
acceptable but not the former is because that's how we were brought up.
Quite so.  What you're saying is that people already do not have free
choice in what they wear.  There is no such principle that we
therefore have to uphold.  We *can* make dress rules as we see fit.
We *can* make rules if we like to ban covering up.
I agree that a law could be introduced if it had enough support in the
House of Commons, and given that the House of Commons is supposed to
represent the British people, then I suppose "we" could if "we" wanted
to.  However don't forget that "we" includes many Muslims and liberals,
so "we" may not want to.
*You* don't include any muslims or liberals, though, and I'm asking
*you* if you think there should be a new law banning covering up
(details to be sorted out later).
Post by Gareth
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
Anyway, Boris has said this -
Actually, I think he's basically said he doesn't like women to wear
burkas but doesn't want to ban burkas in public places.  In other
words he has his opinion but doesn't want to force it on others.
That seems sensible to me.
He's scared to have a view.  That's the truth.
He has expressed a view in public.  How can you say he is scared to have
a view?
What view has he expressed? Should we have a new law or not?
Pamela
2018-08-07 12:14:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while
I respect the argument that people should to a greater or
lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there
are women who feel this is how they need to dress.
Why do you find it heart breaking? Is it heart breaking that a
Western woman isn't allowed to go topless in the local swimming
pool but her husband is?
Suppose I go swimming with my wife and kids and my daughter
says it's not fair that she has to cover her chest when her
brother doesn't. If I forbid her to go topless am I a
controlling male bully or a moral guardian upholding standards
of decency?
Suppose we are going to a wedding and my son wants to wear
tracksuit bottoms, trainers and a t-shirt.  Am I wrong to make
him were a suit?
Children are a different case from adults.
Post by Gareth
Their culture says it's wrong to go out without a burka, our
culture says women can't go out topless.  Neither convention
makes any logical sense and I think the only reason we find the
latter acceptable but not the former is because that's how we
were brought up.
Quite so.  What you're saying is that people already do not
have free choice in what they wear.  There is no such principle
that we therefore have to uphold.  We *can* make dress rules as
we see fit. We *can* make rules if we like to ban covering up.
I agree that a law could be introduced if it had enough support
in the House of Commons, and given that the House of Commons is
supposed to represent the British people, then I suppose "we"
could if "we" wanted to.  However don't forget that "we"
includes many Muslims and liberals, so "we" may not want to.
*You* don't include any muslims or liberals, though, and I'm
asking *you* if you think there should be a new law banning
covering up (details to be sorted out later).
Post by Gareth
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
Anyway, Boris has said this -
Actually, I think he's basically said he doesn't like women to
wear burkas but doesn't want to ban burkas in public places. 
In other words he has his opinion but doesn't want to force it
on others. That seems sensible to me.
He's scared to have a view.  That's the truth.
He has expressed a view in public.  How can you say he is scared
to have a view?
What view has he expressed? Should we have a new law or not?
Lovely questions whose answers you don't really want except that
they should lead nicely into a prolonged and useless exchange.
Norman Wells
2018-08-07 13:04:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while
I respect the argument that people should to a greater or
lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there
are women who feel this is how they need to dress.
Why do you find it heart breaking? Is it heart breaking that a
Western woman isn't allowed to go topless in the local swimming
pool but her husband is?
Suppose I go swimming with my wife and kids and my daughter
says it's not fair that she has to cover her chest when her
brother doesn't. If I forbid her to go topless am I a
controlling male bully or a moral guardian upholding standards
of decency?
Suppose we are going to a wedding and my son wants to wear
tracksuit bottoms, trainers and a t-shirt.  Am I wrong to make
him were a suit?
Children are a different case from adults.
Post by Gareth
Their culture says it's wrong to go out without a burka, our
culture says women can't go out topless.  Neither convention
makes any logical sense and I think the only reason we find the
latter acceptable but not the former is because that's how we
were brought up.
Quite so.  What you're saying is that people already do not
have free choice in what they wear.  There is no such principle
that we therefore have to uphold.  We *can* make dress rules as
we see fit. We *can* make rules if we like to ban covering up.
I agree that a law could be introduced if it had enough support
in the House of Commons, and given that the House of Commons is
supposed to represent the British people, then I suppose "we"
could if "we" wanted to.  However don't forget that "we"
includes many Muslims and liberals, so "we" may not want to.
*You* don't include any muslims or liberals, though, and I'm
asking *you* if you think there should be a new law banning
covering up (details to be sorted out later).
Post by Gareth
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
Anyway, Boris has said this -
Actually, I think he's basically said he doesn't like women to
wear burkas but doesn't want to ban burkas in public places.Â
In other words he has his opinion but doesn't want to force it
on others. That seems sensible to me.
He's scared to have a view.  That's the truth.
He has expressed a view in public.  How can you say he is scared
to have a view?
What view has he expressed? Should we have a new law or not?
Lovely questions whose answers you don't really want except that
they should lead nicely into a prolonged and useless exchange.
I was wondering whether you ever contribute anything of any relevance.
Pamela
2018-08-07 16:06:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because
while I respect the argument that people should to a greater
or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there
are women who feel this is how they need to dress.
Why do you find it heart breaking? Is it heart breaking that
a Western woman isn't allowed to go topless in the local
swimming pool but her husband is?
Suppose I go swimming with my wife and kids and my daughter
says it's not fair that she has to cover her chest when her
brother doesn't. If I forbid her to go topless am I a
controlling male bully or a moral guardian upholding
standards of decency?
Suppose we are going to a wedding and my son wants to wear
tracksuit bottoms, trainers and a t-shirt.  Am I wrong to
make him were a suit?
Children are a different case from adults.
Post by Gareth
Their culture says it's wrong to go out without a burka, our
culture says women can't go out topless.  Neither
convention makes any logical sense and I think the only
reason we find the latter acceptable but not the former is
because that's how we were brought up.
Quite so.  What you're saying is that people already do not
have free choice in what they wear.  There is no such
principle that we therefore have to uphold.  We *can* make
dress rules as we see fit. We *can* make rules if we like to
ban covering up.
I agree that a law could be introduced if it had enough support
in the House of Commons, and given that the House of Commons is
supposed to represent the British people, then I suppose "we"
could if "we" wanted to.  However don't forget that "we"
includes many Muslims and liberals, so "we" may not want to.
*You* don't include any muslims or liberals, though, and I'm
asking *you* if you think there should be a new law banning
covering up (details to be sorted out later).
Post by Gareth
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
Anyway, Boris has said this -
Actually, I think he's basically said he doesn't like women
to wear burkas but doesn't want to ban burkas in public
places. In other words he has his opinion but doesn't want
to force it on others. That seems sensible to me.
He's scared to have a view.  That's the truth.
He has expressed a view in public.  How can you say he is
scared to have a view?
What view has he expressed? Should we have a new law or not?
Lovely questions whose answers you don't really want except that
they should lead nicely into a prolonged and useless exchange.
I was wondering whether you ever contribute anything of any
relevance.
I carefully explained 2,4,5-T salts to you and their connection with
dioxin. Do you have any questions?
Norman Wells
2018-08-07 16:11:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because
while I respect the argument that people should to a greater
or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there
are women who feel this is how they need to dress.
Why do you find it heart breaking? Is it heart breaking that
a Western woman isn't allowed to go topless in the local
swimming pool but her husband is?
Suppose I go swimming with my wife and kids and my daughter
says it's not fair that she has to cover her chest when her
brother doesn't. If I forbid her to go topless am I a
controlling male bully or a moral guardian upholding
standards of decency?
Suppose we are going to a wedding and my son wants to wear
tracksuit bottoms, trainers and a t-shirt.  Am I wrong to
make him were a suit?
Children are a different case from adults.
Post by Gareth
Their culture says it's wrong to go out without a burka, our
culture says women can't go out topless.  Neither
convention makes any logical sense and I think the only
reason we find the latter acceptable but not the former is
because that's how we were brought up.
Quite so.  What you're saying is that people already do not
have free choice in what they wear.  There is no such
principle that we therefore have to uphold.  We *can* make
dress rules as we see fit. We *can* make rules if we like to
ban covering up.
I agree that a law could be introduced if it had enough support
in the House of Commons, and given that the House of Commons is
supposed to represent the British people, then I suppose "we"
could if "we" wanted to.  However don't forget that "we"
includes many Muslims and liberals, so "we" may not want to.
*You* don't include any muslims or liberals, though, and I'm
asking *you* if you think there should be a new law banning
covering up (details to be sorted out later).
Post by Gareth
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
Anyway, Boris has said this -
Actually, I think he's basically said he doesn't like women
to wear burkas but doesn't want to ban burkas in public
places. In other words he has his opinion but doesn't want
to force it on others. That seems sensible to me.
He's scared to have a view.  That's the truth.
He has expressed a view in public.  How can you say he is
scared to have a view?
What view has he expressed? Should we have a new law or not?
Lovely questions whose answers you don't really want except that
they should lead nicely into a prolonged and useless exchange.
I was wondering whether you ever contribute anything of any
relevance.
I carefully explained 2,4,5-T salts to you and their connection with
dioxin. Do you have any questions?
Yes. My question is why you think 2,4,5-T means 2,4,5-trichlorophenol
when the defoliant known as 2,4,5-T is actually
2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid, a different chemical entity entirely?

You are very confused.
Pamela
2018-08-08 16:40:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because
while I respect the argument that people should to a
greater or lesser degree be allowed to wear what they
wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women who
feel this is how they need to dress.
Why do you find it heart breaking? Is it heart breaking
that a Western woman isn't allowed to go topless in the
local swimming pool but her husband is?
Suppose I go swimming with my wife and kids and my daughter
says it's not fair that she has to cover her chest when her
brother doesn't. If I forbid her to go topless am I a
controlling male bully or a moral guardian upholding
standards of decency?
Suppose we are going to a wedding and my son wants to wear
tracksuit bottoms, trainers and a t-shirt.  Am I
wrong to make him were a suit?
Children are a different case from adults.
Post by Gareth
Their culture says it's wrong to go out without a burka,
our culture says women can't go out topless. 
Neither convention makes any logical sense and I think the
only reason we find the latter acceptable but not the
former is because that's how we were brought up.
Quite so.  What you're saying is that people already
do not have free choice in what they wear.  There is
no such principle that we therefore have to uphold. 
We *can* make dress rules as we see fit. We *can* make
rules if we like to ban covering up.
I agree that a law could be introduced if it had enough
support in the House of Commons, and given that the House of
Commons is supposed to represent the British people, then I
suppose "we" could if "we" wanted to.  However don't
forget that "we" includes many Muslims and liberals, so "we"
may not want to.
*You* don't include any muslims or liberals, though, and I'm
asking *you* if you think there should be a new law banning
covering up (details to be sorted out later).
Post by Gareth
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
Anyway, Boris has said this -
Actually, I think he's basically said he doesn't like women
to wear burkas but doesn't want to ban burkas in public
places. In other words he has his opinion but doesn't
want to force it on others. That seems sensible to me.
He's scared to have a view.  That's the truth.
He has expressed a view in public.  How can you say
he is scared to have a view?
What view has he expressed? Should we have a new law or not?
Lovely questions whose answers you don't really want except
that they should lead nicely into a prolonged and useless
exchange.
I was wondering whether you ever contribute anything of any
relevance.
I carefully explained 2,4,5-T salts to you and their connection
with dioxin. Do you have any questions?
Yes. My question is why you think 2,4,5-T means
2,4,5-trichlorophenol when the defoliant known as 2,4,5-T is
actually 2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid, a different chemical
entity entirely?
You are very confused.
I explained this to you earlier but you remain clueless. I wrote:

"2,4,5-trichlorophenol is used to make
2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid of which a manufaturing
by-product is a dioxin compound which is what was so worrying
when released at Seveso."

See http://al.howardknight.net/msgid.cgi?ID=153356043800

You compounded your misunderstanding by thinking the Seveso plant
wasn't making the sodium salt of 2,4,5-trichlorophenol at all.

I suggest that when you're in a hole, stop digging.
Norman Wells
2018-08-08 17:29:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
I carefully explained 2,4,5-T salts to you and their connection
with dioxin. Do you have any questions?
Yes. My question is why you think 2,4,5-T means
2,4,5-trichlorophenol when the defoliant known as 2,4,5-T is
actually 2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid, a different chemical
entity entirely?
You are very confused.
"2,4,5-trichlorophenol is used to make
2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid of which a manufaturing
by-product is a dioxin compound which is what was so worrying
when released at Seveso."
See http://al.howardknight.net/msgid.cgi?ID=153356043800
You compounded your misunderstanding by thinking the Seveso plant
wasn't making the sodium salt of 2,4,5-trichlorophenol at all.
It wasn't making '2,4,5-T'. Your comment about 'dioxin' being a
by-product of 2,4,5-T manufacture doesn't therefore apply to the Seveso
incident.

It was released in a malfunction in the preparation of something else
that was not even intended to be used to produce 2,4,5-T.
Post by Pamela
I suggest that when you're in a hole, stop digging.
No hole, just facts.
Pamela
2018-08-08 17:43:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
I carefully explained 2,4,5-T salts to you and their connection
with dioxin. Do you have any questions?
Yes. My question is why you think 2,4,5-T means
2,4,5-trichlorophenol when the defoliant known as 2,4,5-T is
actually 2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid, a different chemical
entity entirely?
You are very confused.
"2,4,5-trichlorophenol is used to make
2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid of which a manufaturing
by-product is a dioxin compound which is what was so worrying
when released at Seveso."
See http://al.howardknight.net/msgid.cgi?ID=153356043800
You compounded your misunderstanding by thinking the Seveso plant
wasn't making the sodium salt of 2,4,5-trichlorophenol at all.
It wasn't making '2,4,5-T'. Your comment about 'dioxin' being a
by-product of 2,4,5-T manufacture doesn't therefore apply to the
Seveso incident.
It was released in a malfunction in the preparation of something
else that was not even intended to be used to produce 2,4,5-T.
You are hopelessly confused but I guess that's your M.O. for
trolling but most of us have got wind of it.

You raised the non-salt 2,4,5-T and no one else did.
I mentioned its salt which confused you.
No one has said "making '2,4,5-T'".

What is your actual point? You started by claiming Seveso was not a
defoliant as Abelard had stated. Oops!
Norman Wells
2018-08-08 20:01:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
I carefully explained 2,4,5-T salts to you and their connection
with dioxin. Do you have any questions?
Yes. My question is why you think 2,4,5-T means
2,4,5-trichlorophenol when the defoliant known as 2,4,5-T is
actually 2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid, a different chemical
entity entirely?
You are very confused.
"2,4,5-trichlorophenol is used to make
2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid of which a manufaturing
by-product is a dioxin compound which is what was so worrying
when released at Seveso."
See http://al.howardknight.net/msgid.cgi?ID=153356043800
You compounded your misunderstanding by thinking the Seveso plant
wasn't making the sodium salt of 2,4,5-trichlorophenol at all.
It wasn't making '2,4,5-T'. Your comment about 'dioxin' being a
by-product of 2,4,5-T manufacture doesn't therefore apply to the
Seveso incident.
It was released in a malfunction in the preparation of something
else that was not even intended to be used to produce 2,4,5-T.
You are hopelessly confused but I guess that's your M.O. for
trolling but most of us have got wind of it.
You raised the non-salt 2,4,5-T and no one else did.
I mentioned its salt which confused you.
No one has said "making '2,4,5-T'".
What is your actual point? You started by claiming Seveso was not a
defoliant as Abelard had stated. Oops!
Oh dear, you still don't know the difference, do you?
Pamela
2018-08-08 16:54:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because
while I respect the argument that people should to a
greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that
there are women who feel this is how they need to dress.
Why do you find it heart breaking? Is it heart breaking
that a Western woman isn't allowed to go topless in the
local swimming pool but her husband is?
Suppose I go swimming with my wife and kids and my daughter
says it's not fair that she has to cover her chest when her
brother doesn't. If I forbid her to go topless am I a
controlling male bully or a moral guardian upholding
standards of decency?
Suppose we are going to a wedding and my son wants to wear
tracksuit bottoms, trainers and a t-shirt.  Am I
wrong to make him were a suit?
Children are a different case from adults.
Post by Gareth
Their culture says it's wrong to go out without a burka,
our culture says women can't go out topless. 
Neither convention makes any logical sense and I think the
only reason we find the latter acceptable but not the
former is because that's how we were brought up.
Quite so.  What you're saying is that people already
do not have free choice in what they wear.  There is
no such principle that we therefore have to uphold. 
We *can* make dress rules as we see fit. We *can* make
rules if we like to ban covering up.
I agree that a law could be introduced if it had enough
support in the House of Commons, and given that the House of
Commons is supposed to represent the British people, then I
suppose "we" could if "we" wanted to.  However don't
forget that "we" includes many Muslims and liberals, so "we"
may not want to.
*You* don't include any muslims or liberals, though, and I'm
asking *you* if you think there should be a new law banning
covering up (details to be sorted out later).
Post by Gareth
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
Anyway, Boris has said this -
Actually, I think he's basically said he doesn't like women
to wear burkas but doesn't want to ban burkas in public
places. In other words he has his opinion but doesn't
want to force it on others. That seems sensible to me.
He's scared to have a view.  That's the truth.
He has expressed a view in public.  How can you say
he is scared to have a view?
What view has he expressed? Should we have a new law or not?
Lovely questions whose answers you don't really want except
that they should lead nicely into a prolonged and useless
exchange.
I was wondering whether you ever contribute anything of any
relevance.
I carefully explained 2,4,5-T salts to you and their connection
with dioxin. Do you have any questions?
Yes. My question is why you think 2,4,5-T means
2,4,5-trichlorophenol when the defoliant known as 2,4,5-T is
actually 2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid, a different chemical
entity entirely?
Nice try, Norman, at playing to the gallery.

One is a precusor to the other as anyone would know if they read the
two links I gave you. Production of the latter, which is a powerful
defoilant, gives rise to dioxins.

Your schoolboy chemistry lessons clearly didn't include organic
compounds. Worse still, you remain unwilling to use Google or click
links. Other people have observed the same trolling traits in you.
Norman Wells
2018-08-08 17:21:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
I carefully explained 2,4,5-T salts to you and their connection
with dioxin. Do you have any questions?
Yes. My question is why you think 2,4,5-T means
2,4,5-trichlorophenol when the defoliant known as 2,4,5-T is
actually 2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid, a different chemical
entity entirely?
Nice try, Norman, at playing to the gallery.
Why are *facts* 'playing to the gallery'? Perhaps you'd explain.
Post by Pamela
One is a precusor to the other as anyone would know if they read the
two links I gave you.
The former *can* be used to prepare the latter, but that is *not* what
was being done at Seveso. What was being made there was the phenol, and
that was going to be used in domestic skincare products as a
preservative. It is not an agrochemical. It is not '2,4,5-T'. It is
not a component of Agent Orange.
Post by Pamela
Production of the latter, which is a powerful
defoilant, gives rise to dioxins.
Then it has nothing at all to do with Seveso, as I said, because it
wasn't being made there.
Post by Pamela
Your schoolboy chemistry lessons clearly didn't include organic
compounds.
Oh, it did. Which is why I'm able to correct your misapprehensions and
lack of knowledge.
Pamela
2018-08-09 17:02:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
I carefully explained 2,4,5-T salts to you and their connection
with dioxin. Do you have any questions?
Yes. My question is why you think 2,4,5-T means
2,4,5-trichlorophenol when the defoliant known as 2,4,5-T is
actually 2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid, a different chemical
entity entirely?
Nice try, Norman, at playing to the gallery.
Why are *facts* 'playing to the gallery'? Perhaps you'd explain.
You want to give the impression to onlookers that you are right
despite being wrong. Hence "playing to the gallery". It's simple
enough English.
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
One is a precusor to the other as anyone would know if they read
the two links I gave you.
The former *can* be used to prepare the latter, but that is *not*
what was being done at Seveso. What was being made there was the
phenol, and that was going to be used in domestic skincare
products as a preservative. It is not an agrochemical. It is not
'2,4,5-T'. It is not a component of Agent Orange.
You are sorely mistaken that 2,4,5-trichlorophenol salt was not
being made at Seveso, as you did earlier. It is a defoliant, which
you earlier denied. Dioxins were released by a mistake during
manufacturing.
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Production of the latter, which is a powerful
defoilant, gives rise to dioxins.
Then it has nothing at all to do with Seveso, as I said, because
it wasn't being made there.
Post by Pamela
Your schoolboy chemistry lessons clearly didn't include organic
compounds.
Oh, it did. Which is why I'm able to correct your
misapprehensions and lack of knowledge.
You must have got a grade E for organic chemistry. Same for maths.
You still don't answer what career you followed. Why is that?
Norman Wells
2018-08-09 18:06:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Then it has nothing at all to do with Seveso, as I said, because
it wasn't being made there.
Post by Pamela
Your schoolboy chemistry lessons clearly didn't include organic
compounds.
Oh, it did. Which is why I'm able to correct your
misapprehensions and lack of knowledge.
You must have got a grade E for organic chemistry. Same for maths.
You still don't answer what career you followed. Why is that?
Thank you for your expression of interest.

However, your enquiry is very silly. I could tell you anything I like,
and you would still have no idea whether it was true. You would believe
whatever your prejudices tell you anyway.
Pamela
2018-08-09 18:18:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Then it has nothing at all to do with Seveso, as I said, because
it wasn't being made there.
Post by Pamela
Your schoolboy chemistry lessons clearly didn't include organic
compounds.
Oh, it did. Which is why I'm able to correct your
misapprehensions and lack of knowledge.
You must have got a grade E for organic chemistry. Same for
maths. You still don't answer what career you followed. Why is
that?
Thank you for your expression of interest.
However, your enquiry is very silly. I could tell you anything I
like, and you would still have no idea whether it was true. You
would believe whatever your prejudices tell you anyway.
Then tell the truth for a change.
Norman Wells
2018-08-09 19:19:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Then it has nothing at all to do with Seveso, as I said, because
it wasn't being made there.
Post by Pamela
Your schoolboy chemistry lessons clearly didn't include organic
compounds.
Oh, it did. Which is why I'm able to correct your
misapprehensions and lack of knowledge.
You must have got a grade E for organic chemistry. Same for
maths. You still don't answer what career you followed. Why is
that?
Thank you for your expression of interest.
However, your enquiry is very silly. I could tell you anything I
like, and you would still have no idea whether it was true. You
would believe whatever your prejudices tell you anyway.
Then tell the truth for a change.
But you wouldn't know if it was true. That's why it's pointless.
Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
2018-08-09 18:45:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Norman Wells
Then it has nothing at all to do with Seveso, as I said, because
it wasn't being made there.
Post by Pamela
Your schoolboy chemistry lessons clearly didn't include organic
compounds.
Oh, it did. Which is why I'm able to correct your
misapprehensions and lack of knowledge.
You must have got a grade E for organic chemistry. Same for maths.
You still don't answer what career you followed. Why is that?
Thank you for your expression of interest.
However, your enquiry is very silly. I could tell you anything I like,
and you would still have no idea whether it was true.
No, but we could try and discover if it was true or not - quite an exciting
pastime don’t you think?

Why not try us and see how good we are at lie detection?
Post by Norman Wells
You would believe
whatever your prejudices tell you anyway.
Ok, so from that sentence we know you are highly patronising.

I wonder which professions employ staff with a very patronising nature?
Norman Wells
2018-08-09 19:38:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Norman Wells
Then it has nothing at all to do with Seveso, as I said, because
it wasn't being made there.
Post by Pamela
Your schoolboy chemistry lessons clearly didn't include organic
compounds.
Oh, it did. Which is why I'm able to correct your
misapprehensions and lack of knowledge.
You must have got a grade E for organic chemistry. Same for maths.
You still don't answer what career you followed. Why is that?
Thank you for your expression of interest.
However, your enquiry is very silly. I could tell you anything I like,
and you would still have no idea whether it was true.
No, but we could try and discover if it was true or not - quite an exciting
pastime don’t you think?
Why not try us and see how good we are at lie detection?
It's utterly pointless. You have no tools at your disposal.
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Norman Wells
You would believe
whatever your prejudices tell you anyway.
Ok, so from that sentence we know you are highly patronising.
I wonder which professions employ staff with a very patronising nature?
It's not patronising to say you and Pammy would believe whatever your
prejudices tell you. It's just true.

So, you might just as well tell us what those prejudices are, no?
Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
2018-08-09 20:14:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Norman Wells
Then it has nothing at all to do with Seveso, as I said, because
it wasn't being made there.
Post by Pamela
Your schoolboy chemistry lessons clearly didn't include organic
compounds.
Oh, it did. Which is why I'm able to correct your
misapprehensions and lack of knowledge.
You must have got a grade E for organic chemistry. Same for maths.
You still don't answer what career you followed. Why is that?
Thank you for your expression of interest.
However, your enquiry is very silly. I could tell you anything I like,
and you would still have no idea whether it was true.
No, but we could try and discover if it was true or not - quite an exciting
pastime don’t you think?
Why not try us and see how good we are at lie detection?
It's utterly pointless. You have no tools at your disposal.
Arrogant and judgemental as well.

We are narrowing the scope quite a lot now.
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Norman Wells
You would believe
whatever your prejudices tell you anyway.
Ok, so from that sentence we know you are highly patronising.
I wonder which professions employ staff with a very patronising nature?
It's not patronising to say you and Pammy would believe whatever your
prejudices tell you. It's just true.
So, you might just as well tell us what those prejudices are, no?
No.
Pamela
2018-08-09 20:59:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Norman Wells
Then it has nothing at all to do with Seveso, as I said,
because it wasn't being made there.
Post by Pamela
Your schoolboy chemistry lessons clearly didn't include
organic compounds.
Oh, it did. Which is why I'm able to correct your
misapprehensions and lack of knowledge.
You must have got a grade E for organic chemistry. Same for
maths. You still don't answer what career you followed. Why
is that?
Thank you for your expression of interest.
However, your enquiry is very silly. I could tell you
anything I like, and you would still have no idea whether it
was true.
No, but we could try and discover if it was true or not - quite
an exciting pastime don't you think?
Why not try us and see how good we are at lie detection?
It's utterly pointless. You have no tools at your disposal.
Arrogant and judgemental as well.
We are narrowing the scope quite a lot now.
Not forgetting evasive too.

Norman's need to have the last word suggests he feels inferior and
needs to compensate by showing he's not to be taken lightly.
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Norman Wells
You would believe
whatever your prejudices tell you anyway.
Ok, so from that sentence we know you are highly patronising.
I wonder which professions employ staff with a very patronising nature?
It's not patronising to say you and Pammy would believe whatever
your prejudices tell you. It's just true.
So, you might just as well tell us what those prejudices are, no?
No.
Norman Wells
2018-08-09 21:04:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Norman Wells
Then it has nothing at all to do with Seveso, as I said, because
it wasn't being made there.
Post by Pamela
Your schoolboy chemistry lessons clearly didn't include organic
compounds.
Oh, it did. Which is why I'm able to correct your
misapprehensions and lack of knowledge.
You must have got a grade E for organic chemistry. Same for maths.
You still don't answer what career you followed. Why is that?
Thank you for your expression of interest.
However, your enquiry is very silly. I could tell you anything I like,
and you would still have no idea whether it was true.
No, but we could try and discover if it was true or not - quite an exciting
pastime don’t you think?
Why not try us and see how good we are at lie detection?
It's utterly pointless. You have no tools at your disposal.
Arrogant and judgemental as well.
But it's true. How can you deny it?
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
We are narrowing the scope quite a lot now.
Are we? To what?
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Norman Wells
You would believe
whatever your prejudices tell you anyway.
Ok, so from that sentence we know you are highly patronising.
I wonder which professions employ staff with a very patronising nature?
It's not patronising to say you and Pammy would believe whatever your
prejudices tell you. It's just true.
So, you might just as well tell us what those prejudices are, no?
No.
Why not?
Pamela
2018-08-09 20:56:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Norman Wells
Then it has nothing at all to do with Seveso, as I said,
because it wasn't being made there.
Post by Pamela
Your schoolboy chemistry lessons clearly didn't include
organic compounds.
Oh, it did. Which is why I'm able to correct your
misapprehensions and lack of knowledge.
You must have got a grade E for organic chemistry. Same for
maths. You still don't answer what career you followed. Why is
that?
Thank you for your expression of interest.
However, your enquiry is very silly. I could tell you anything I
like, and you would still have no idea whether it was true.
No, but we could try and discover if it was true or not - quite
an exciting pastime don’t you think?
Why not try us and see how good we are at lie detection?
It's utterly pointless. You have no tools at your disposal.
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Norman Wells
You would believe
whatever your prejudices tell you anyway.
Ok, so from that sentence we know you are highly patronising.
I wonder which professions employ staff with a very patronising nature?
It's not patronising to say you and Pammy would believe whatever
your prejudices tell you. It's just true.
So, you might just as well tell us what those prejudices are, no?
Stop your wriggling and endless evasion. Answer the question. What
career did you have? It's a simple question.
Norman Wells
2018-08-09 21:03:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Norman Wells
Then it has nothing at all to do with Seveso, as I said,
because it wasn't being made there.
Post by Pamela
Your schoolboy chemistry lessons clearly didn't include
organic compounds.
Oh, it did. Which is why I'm able to correct your
misapprehensions and lack of knowledge.
You must have got a grade E for organic chemistry. Same for
maths. You still don't answer what career you followed. Why is
that?
Thank you for your expression of interest.
However, your enquiry is very silly. I could tell you anything I
like, and you would still have no idea whether it was true.
No, but we could try and discover if it was true or not - quite
an exciting pastime don’t you think?
Why not try us and see how good we are at lie detection?
It's utterly pointless. You have no tools at your disposal.
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Norman Wells
You would believe
whatever your prejudices tell you anyway.
Ok, so from that sentence we know you are highly patronising.
I wonder which professions employ staff with a very patronising nature?
It's not patronising to say you and Pammy would believe whatever
your prejudices tell you. It's just true.
So, you might just as well tell us what those prejudices are, no?
Stop your wriggling and endless evasion. Answer the question. What
career did you have? It's a simple question.
I've told you why it's pointless.

Why won't you tell us why you masquerade as female?
Yellow
2018-08-07 01:29:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Why do you find it heart breaking? Is it heart breaking that a Western
woman isn't allowed to go topless in the local swimming pool but her
husband is?
Suppose I go swimming with my wife and kids and my daughter says it's
not fair that she has to cover her chest when her brother doesn't. If I
forbid her to go topless am I a controlling male bully or a moral
guardian upholding standards of decency?
Suppose we are going to a wedding and my son wants to wear tracksuit
bottoms, trainers and a t-shirt. Am I wrong to make him were a suit?
Their culture says it's wrong to go out without a burka, our culture
says women can't go out topless. Neither convention makes any logical
sense and I think the only reason we find the latter acceptable but not
the former is because that's how we were brought up.
Are you really making the case that banning women from exposing their
breasts in a public swimming poll while man can show their chests is
equivalent to the expectation in some familes/cultures that a women must
be covered from head to toe while men are not?


<..>
Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
2018-08-07 13:05:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Why do you find it heart breaking? Is it heart breaking that a Western
woman isn't allowed to go topless in the local swimming pool but her
husband is?
Suppose I go swimming with my wife and kids and my daughter says it's
not fair that she has to cover her chest when her brother doesn't. If I
forbid her to go topless am I a controlling male bully or a moral
guardian upholding standards of decency?
Suppose we are going to a wedding and my son wants to wear tracksuit
bottoms, trainers and a t-shirt. Am I wrong to make him were a suit?
Their culture says it's wrong to go out without a burka, our culture
says women can't go out topless. Neither convention makes any logical
sense and I think the only reason we find the latter acceptable but not
the former is because that's how we were brought up.
Are you really making the case that banning women from exposing their
breasts in a public swimming poll while man can show their chests is
equivalent to the expectation in some familes/cultures that a women must
be covered from head to toe while men are not?
It sounds absolutely equivalent to me.
The Peeler
2018-08-07 13:37:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 06:05:59 -0700, serbian bitch Razovic, the resident
psychopath of sci and scj and Usenet's famous sexual cripple, making an ass
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Post by Yellow
Are you really making the case that banning women from exposing their
breasts in a public swimming poll while man can show their chests is
equivalent to the expectation in some familes/cultures that a women must
be covered from head to toe while men are not?
It sounds absolutely equivalent to me.
You sound like a total asshole to EVERYONE!
--
tomcov about poor psychotic asshole Razovic:
"Assholes come
Assholes go
But the revd asshole goes on forever.
(and he speaks through it)"
MID: <83356bf8-8666-4f4f-ac9a-***@n35g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>
Yellow
2018-08-07 13:43:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Post by Yellow
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Why do you find it heart breaking? Is it heart breaking that a Western
woman isn't allowed to go topless in the local swimming pool but her
husband is?
Suppose I go swimming with my wife and kids and my daughter says it's
not fair that she has to cover her chest when her brother doesn't. If I
forbid her to go topless am I a controlling male bully or a moral
guardian upholding standards of decency?
Suppose we are going to a wedding and my son wants to wear tracksuit
bottoms, trainers and a t-shirt. Am I wrong to make him were a suit?
Their culture says it's wrong to go out without a burka, our culture
says women can't go out topless. Neither convention makes any logical
sense and I think the only reason we find the latter acceptable but not
the former is because that's how we were brought up.
Are you really making the case that banning women from exposing their
breasts in a public swimming poll while man can show their chests is
equivalent to the expectation in some familes/cultures that a women must
be covered from head to toe while men are not?
It sounds absolutely equivalent to me.
Yes, of course it does.
Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
2018-08-07 13:57:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Post by Yellow
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Why do you find it heart breaking? Is it heart breaking that a Western
woman isn't allowed to go topless in the local swimming pool but her
husband is?
Suppose I go swimming with my wife and kids and my daughter says it's
not fair that she has to cover her chest when her brother doesn't. If I
forbid her to go topless am I a controlling male bully or a moral
guardian upholding standards of decency?
Suppose we are going to a wedding and my son wants to wear tracksuit
bottoms, trainers and a t-shirt. Am I wrong to make him were a suit?
Their culture says it's wrong to go out without a burka, our culture
says women can't go out topless. Neither convention makes any logical
sense and I think the only reason we find the latter acceptable but not
the former is because that's how we were brought up.
Are you really making the case that banning women from exposing their
breasts in a public swimming poll while man can show their chests is
equivalent to the expectation in some familes/cultures that a women must
be covered from head to toe while men are not?
It sounds absolutely equivalent to me.
Yes, of course it does.
Yes, because after adjusting for cultural differences, it is.
After all, women in sub-Saharan Africa often go topless.
The Peeler
2018-08-07 14:09:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 06:57:41 -0700, serbian bitch Razovic, the resident
psychopath of sci and scj and Usenet's famous sexual cripple, making an ass
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Post by Yellow
Post by Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
It sounds absolutely equivalent to me.
Yes, of course it does.
Yes, because after adjusting for cultural differences, it is.
After all, women in sub-Saharan Africa often go topless.
Not to forget that YOU run around brainless, Retardovic!
--
"The Jews" to poor dumb anal Razovic:
"Nobody here gets tired of exposing you for the idiot you are, Gordon!"
MID: <***@4ax.com>
Gareth
2018-08-07 21:19:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Why do you find it heart breaking? Is it heart breaking that a Western
woman isn't allowed to go topless in the local swimming pool but her
husband is?
Suppose I go swimming with my wife and kids and my daughter says it's
not fair that she has to cover her chest when her brother doesn't. If I
forbid her to go topless am I a controlling male bully or a moral
guardian upholding standards of decency?
Suppose we are going to a wedding and my son wants to wear tracksuit
bottoms, trainers and a t-shirt. Am I wrong to make him were a suit?
Their culture says it's wrong to go out without a burka, our culture
says women can't go out topless. Neither convention makes any logical
sense and I think the only reason we find the latter acceptable but not
the former is because that's how we were brought up.
Are you really making the case that banning women from exposing their
breasts in a public swimming poll while man can show their chests is
equivalent to the expectation in some familes/cultures that a women must
be covered from head to toe while men are not?
I'm not saying it's exactly the same. I'm saying that analogies can be
drawn, and that perhaps if you look at it in that way you may better
understand it. However, I don't really know as I've never been a burka
wearing Muslim and I suspect that you haven't either.
Yellow
2018-08-07 23:49:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Why do you find it heart breaking? Is it heart breaking that a Western
woman isn't allowed to go topless in the local swimming pool but her
husband is?
Suppose I go swimming with my wife and kids and my daughter says it's
not fair that she has to cover her chest when her brother doesn't. If I
forbid her to go topless am I a controlling male bully or a moral
guardian upholding standards of decency?
Suppose we are going to a wedding and my son wants to wear tracksuit
bottoms, trainers and a t-shirt. Am I wrong to make him were a suit?
Their culture says it's wrong to go out without a burka, our culture
says women can't go out topless. Neither convention makes any logical
sense and I think the only reason we find the latter acceptable but not
the former is because that's how we were brought up.
Are you really making the case that banning women from exposing their
breasts in a public swimming poll while man can show their chests is
equivalent to the expectation in some familes/cultures that a women must
be covered from head to toe while men are not?
I'm not saying it's exactly the same. I'm saying that analogies can be
drawn, and that perhaps if you look at it in that way you may better
understand it.
I understand that the women who wear the burka operate within a culture
where women (have to) cover up when there are men present other than
their immediate family and husband.

What that has to do with topless bathing, which is perfectly legal on my
local beach, you are going to have to explain.

We even have an annual bike riding event where everyone goes starkers.
Post by Gareth
However, I don't really know as I've never been a burka
wearing Muslim and I suspect that you haven't either.
Of course I have seen women wear a burka. How can you never have seen a
women wearing a burka?
Gareth
2018-08-08 17:31:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Why do you find it heart breaking? Is it heart breaking that a Western
woman isn't allowed to go topless in the local swimming pool but her
husband is?
Suppose I go swimming with my wife and kids and my daughter says it's
not fair that she has to cover her chest when her brother doesn't. If I
forbid her to go topless am I a controlling male bully or a moral
guardian upholding standards of decency?
Suppose we are going to a wedding and my son wants to wear tracksuit
bottoms, trainers and a t-shirt. Am I wrong to make him were a suit?
Their culture says it's wrong to go out without a burka, our culture
says women can't go out topless. Neither convention makes any logical
sense and I think the only reason we find the latter acceptable but not
the former is because that's how we were brought up.
Are you really making the case that banning women from exposing their
breasts in a public swimming poll while man can show their chests is
equivalent to the expectation in some familes/cultures that a women must
be covered from head to toe while men are not?
I'm not saying it's exactly the same. I'm saying that analogies can be
drawn, and that perhaps if you look at it in that way you may better
understand it.
I understand that the women who wear the burka operate within a culture
where women (have to) cover up when there are men present other than
their immediate family and husband.
What that has to do with topless bathing, which is perfectly legal on my
local beach, you are going to have to explain.
We even have an annual bike riding event where everyone goes starkers.
Post by Gareth
However, I don't really know as I've never been a burka
wearing Muslim and I suspect that you haven't either.
Of course I have seen women wear a burka. How can you never have seen a
women wearing a burka?
I said "been" not "seen" as in I do not have personal experience of
being a Muslim woman and I suspect you don't either.

You have said in various posts in this thread that you feel sorry for
women who show to much as they are forced into it by social media and
you feel sorry for women who wear burkas because they are forced to
cover up.

What I have been trying to say is that some people like to wear more,
some like to wear less. Some women may choose to cover their faces
because that's what they do in their culture and they may well be okay
with that. Just as most Western women choose to keep their breasts
covered because that's what we do in our culture.

For example you said:
"I do not think it is right to see a man in shorts and a tee-
shirt while his wife is covered from head to foot in black."

I'm saying that you don't know that they aren't both happy dressing like
that.
Yellow
2018-08-08 20:29:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Why do you find it heart breaking? Is it heart breaking that a Western
woman isn't allowed to go topless in the local swimming pool but her
husband is?
Suppose I go swimming with my wife and kids and my daughter says it's
not fair that she has to cover her chest when her brother doesn't. If I
forbid her to go topless am I a controlling male bully or a moral
guardian upholding standards of decency?
Suppose we are going to a wedding and my son wants to wear tracksuit
bottoms, trainers and a t-shirt. Am I wrong to make him were a suit?
Their culture says it's wrong to go out without a burka, our culture
says women can't go out topless. Neither convention makes any logical
sense and I think the only reason we find the latter acceptable but not
the former is because that's how we were brought up.
Are you really making the case that banning women from exposing their
breasts in a public swimming poll while man can show their chests is
equivalent to the expectation in some familes/cultures that a women must
be covered from head to toe while men are not?
I'm not saying it's exactly the same. I'm saying that analogies can be
drawn, and that perhaps if you look at it in that way you may better
understand it.
I understand that the women who wear the burka operate within a culture
where women (have to) cover up when there are men present other than
their immediate family and husband.
What that has to do with topless bathing, which is perfectly legal on my
local beach, you are going to have to explain.
We even have an annual bike riding event where everyone goes starkers.
Post by Gareth
However, I don't really know as I've never been a burka
wearing Muslim and I suspect that you haven't either.
Of course I have seen women wear a burka. How can you never have seen a
women wearing a burka?
I said "been" not "seen" as in I do not have personal experience of
being a Muslim woman and I suspect you don't either.
Apologies. :-)
Post by Gareth
You have said in various posts in this thread that you feel sorry for
women who show to much as they are forced into it by social media and
you feel sorry for women who wear burkas because they are forced to
cover up.
What I have been trying to say is that some people like to wear more,
some like to wear less. Some women may choose to cover their faces
because that's what they do in their culture and they may well be okay
with that. Just as most Western women choose to keep their breasts
covered because that's what we do in our culture.
"I do not think it is right to see a man in shorts and a tee-
shirt while his wife is covered from head to foot in black."
I'm saying that you don't know that they aren't both happy dressing like
that.
Gareth
2018-08-08 20:37:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Why do you find it heart breaking? Is it heart breaking that a Western
woman isn't allowed to go topless in the local swimming pool but her
husband is?
Suppose I go swimming with my wife and kids and my daughter says it's
not fair that she has to cover her chest when her brother doesn't. If I
forbid her to go topless am I a controlling male bully or a moral
guardian upholding standards of decency?
Suppose we are going to a wedding and my son wants to wear tracksuit
bottoms, trainers and a t-shirt. Am I wrong to make him were a suit?
Their culture says it's wrong to go out without a burka, our culture
says women can't go out topless. Neither convention makes any logical
sense and I think the only reason we find the latter acceptable but not
the former is because that's how we were brought up.
Are you really making the case that banning women from exposing their
breasts in a public swimming poll while man can show their chests is
equivalent to the expectation in some familes/cultures that a women must
be covered from head to toe while men are not?
I'm not saying it's exactly the same. I'm saying that analogies can be
drawn, and that perhaps if you look at it in that way you may better
understand it.
I understand that the women who wear the burka operate within a culture
where women (have to) cover up when there are men present other than
their immediate family and husband.
What that has to do with topless bathing, which is perfectly legal on my
local beach, you are going to have to explain.
We even have an annual bike riding event where everyone goes starkers.
Post by Gareth
However, I don't really know as I've never been a burka
wearing Muslim and I suspect that you haven't either.
Of course I have seen women wear a burka. How can you never have seen a
women wearing a burka?
I said "been" not "seen" as in I do not have personal experience of
being a Muslim woman and I suspect you don't either.
Apologies. :-)
I wasn't expecting that on uk.legal.

Accepted, thank you :-)
Pamela
2018-08-09 15:07:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while
I respect the argument that people should to a greater or
lesser degree be allowed to wear what they wish, I find it
heart breaking that there are women who feel this is how they
need to dress.
Why do you find it heart breaking? Is it heart breaking that a
Western woman isn't allowed to go topless in the local
swimming pool but her husband is?
Suppose I go swimming with my wife and kids and my daughter
says it's not fair that she has to cover her chest when her
brother doesn't. If I forbid her to go topless am I a
controlling male bully or a moral guardian upholding standards
of decency?
Suppose we are going to a wedding and my son wants to wear
tracksuit bottoms, trainers and a t-shirt. Am I wrong to make
him were a suit?
Their culture says it's wrong to go out without a burka, our
culture says women can't go out topless. Neither convention
makes any logical sense and I think the only reason we find
the latter acceptable but not the former is because that's how
we were brought up.
Are you really making the case that banning women from exposing
their breasts in a public swimming poll while man can show
their chests is equivalent to the expectation in some
familes/cultures that a women must be covered from head to toe
while men are not?
I'm not saying it's exactly the same. I'm saying that analogies
can be drawn, and that perhaps if you look at it in that way you
may better understand it.
I understand that the women who wear the burka operate within a
culture where women (have to) cover up when there are men present
other than their immediate family and husband.
What that has to do with topless bathing, which is perfectly legal
on my local beach, you are going to have to explain.
We even have an annual bike riding event where everyone goes
starkers.
Post by Gareth
However, I don't really know as I've never been a burka
wearing Muslim and I suspect that you haven't either.
Of course I have seen women wear a burka. How can you never have
seen a women wearing a burka?
Gareth said he's never *been* one. Not never *seen* one.

Why don't you read posts more carefully before replying? At least
you didn't put words in his mouth.
Norman Wells
2018-08-09 15:43:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Pamela
Post by Yellow
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while
I respect the argument that people should to a greater or
lesser degree be allowed to wear what they wish, I find it
heart breaking that there are women who feel this is how they
need to dress.
Why do you find it heart breaking? Is it heart breaking that a
Western woman isn't allowed to go topless in the local
swimming pool but her husband is?
Suppose I go swimming with my wife and kids and my daughter
says it's not fair that she has to cover her chest when her
brother doesn't. If I forbid her to go topless am I a
controlling male bully or a moral guardian upholding standards
of decency?
Suppose we are going to a wedding and my son wants to wear
tracksuit bottoms, trainers and a t-shirt. Am I wrong to make
him were a suit?
Their culture says it's wrong to go out without a burka, our
culture says women can't go out topless. Neither convention
makes any logical sense and I think the only reason we find
the latter acceptable but not the former is because that's how
we were brought up.
Are you really making the case that banning women from exposing
their breasts in a public swimming poll while man can show
their chests is equivalent to the expectation in some
familes/cultures that a women must be covered from head to toe
while men are not?
I'm not saying it's exactly the same. I'm saying that analogies
can be drawn, and that perhaps if you look at it in that way you
may better understand it.
I understand that the women who wear the burka operate within a
culture where women (have to) cover up when there are men present
other than their immediate family and husband.
What that has to do with topless bathing, which is perfectly legal
on my local beach, you are going to have to explain.
We even have an annual bike riding event where everyone goes
starkers.
Post by Gareth
However, I don't really know as I've never been a burka
wearing Muslim and I suspect that you haven't either.
Of course I have seen women wear a burka. How can you never have
seen a women wearing a burka?
Gareth said he's never *been* one. Not never *seen* one.
Why don't you read posts more carefully before replying? At least
you didn't put words in his mouth.
Well, why don't you read the rest of the thread before you jump in?

It's like Groundhog Day whenever you post.
Pamela
2018-08-09 18:16:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Yellow
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
In article
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because
while I respect the argument that people should to a greater
or lesser degree be allowed to wear what they wish, I find
it heart breaking that there are women who feel this is how
they need to dress.
Why do you find it heart breaking? Is it heart breaking that
a Western woman isn't allowed to go topless in the local
swimming pool but her husband is?
Suppose I go swimming with my wife and kids and my daughter
says it's not fair that she has to cover her chest when her
brother doesn't. If I forbid her to go topless am I a
controlling male bully or a moral guardian upholding
standards of decency?
Suppose we are going to a wedding and my son wants to wear
tracksuit bottoms, trainers and a t-shirt. Am I wrong to
make him were a suit?
Their culture says it's wrong to go out without a burka, our
culture says women can't go out topless. Neither convention
makes any logical sense and I think the only reason we find
the latter acceptable but not the former is because that's
how we were brought up.
Are you really making the case that banning women from
exposing their breasts in a public swimming poll while man can
show their chests is equivalent to the expectation in some
familes/cultures that a women must be covered from head to toe
while men are not?
I'm not saying it's exactly the same. I'm saying that
analogies can be drawn, and that perhaps if you look at it in
that way you may better understand it.
I understand that the women who wear the burka operate within a
culture where women (have to) cover up when there are men
present other than their immediate family and husband.
What that has to do with topless bathing, which is perfectly
legal on my local beach, you are going to have to explain.
We even have an annual bike riding event where everyone goes
starkers.
Post by Gareth
However, I don't really know as I've never been a burka wearing
Muslim and I suspect that you haven't either.
Of course I have seen women wear a burka. How can you never have
seen a women wearing a burka?
Gareth said he's never *been* one. Not never *seen* one.
Why don't you read posts more carefully before replying? At
least you didn't put words in his mouth.
Well, why don't you read the rest of the thread before you jump in?
It's like Groundhog Day whenever you post.
Gareth writes: I've never been a burka wearing Muslim and I suspect
that you haven't either.

Yellow replies: Of course I have seen women wear a burka. How can
you never have seen a women wearing a burka?

Yellow turns a normal statement into a stand-up comedy routine!
The Todal
2018-08-09 18:26:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Yellow
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
In article
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because
while I respect the argument that people should to a greater
or lesser degree be allowed to wear what they wish, I find
it heart breaking that there are women who feel this is how
they need to dress.
Why do you find it heart breaking? Is it heart breaking that
a Western woman isn't allowed to go topless in the local
swimming pool but her husband is?
Suppose I go swimming with my wife and kids and my daughter
says it's not fair that she has to cover her chest when her
brother doesn't. If I forbid her to go topless am I a
controlling male bully or a moral guardian upholding
standards of decency?
Suppose we are going to a wedding and my son wants to wear
tracksuit bottoms, trainers and a t-shirt. Am I wrong to
make him were a suit?
Their culture says it's wrong to go out without a burka, our
culture says women can't go out topless. Neither convention
makes any logical sense and I think the only reason we find
the latter acceptable but not the former is because that's
how we were brought up.
Are you really making the case that banning women from
exposing their breasts in a public swimming poll while man can
show their chests is equivalent to the expectation in some
familes/cultures that a women must be covered from head to toe
while men are not?
I'm not saying it's exactly the same. I'm saying that
analogies can be drawn, and that perhaps if you look at it in
that way you may better understand it.
I understand that the women who wear the burka operate within a
culture where women (have to) cover up when there are men
present other than their immediate family and husband.
What that has to do with topless bathing, which is perfectly
legal on my local beach, you are going to have to explain.
We even have an annual bike riding event where everyone goes starkers.
Post by Gareth
However, I don't really know as I've never been a burka wearing
Muslim and I suspect that you haven't either.
Of course I have seen women wear a burka. How can you never have
seen a women wearing a burka?
Gareth said he's never *been* one. Not never *seen* one.
Why don't you read posts more carefully before replying? At
least you didn't put words in his mouth.
Well, why don't you read the rest of the thread before you jump in?
It's like Groundhog Day whenever you post.
Gareth writes: I've never been a burka wearing Muslim and I suspect
that you haven't either.
Yellow replies: Of course I have seen women wear a burka. How can
you never have seen a women wearing a burka?
Yellow turns a normal statement into a stand-up comedy routine!
You seem to be rather obsessive about this. Yellow apologised for
mis-reading Gareth's post and he accepted the apology. That was yesterday.
Pamela
2018-08-09 20:54:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Todal
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Yellow
In article
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
In article
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because
while I respect the argument that people should to a
greater or lesser degree be allowed to wear what they
wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women who
feel this is how they need to dress.
Why do you find it heart breaking? Is it heart breaking
that a Western woman isn't allowed to go topless in the
local swimming pool but her husband is?
Suppose I go swimming with my wife and kids and my daughter
says it's not fair that she has to cover her chest when her
brother doesn't. If I forbid her to go topless am I a
controlling male bully or a moral guardian upholding
standards of decency?
Suppose we are going to a wedding and my son wants to wear
tracksuit bottoms, trainers and a t-shirt. Am I wrong to
make him were a suit?
Their culture says it's wrong to go out without a burka,
our culture says women can't go out topless. Neither
convention makes any logical sense and I think the only
reason we find the latter acceptable but not the former is
because that's how we were brought up.
Are you really making the case that banning women from
exposing their breasts in a public swimming poll while man
can show their chests is equivalent to the expectation in
some familes/cultures that a women must be covered from head
to toe while men are not?
I'm not saying it's exactly the same. I'm saying that
analogies can be drawn, and that perhaps if you look at it in
that way you may better understand it.
I understand that the women who wear the burka operate within
a culture where women (have to) cover up when there are men
present other than their immediate family and husband.
What that has to do with topless bathing, which is perfectly
legal on my local beach, you are going to have to explain.
We even have an annual bike riding event where everyone goes starkers.
Post by Gareth
However, I don't really know as I've never been a burka
wearing Muslim and I suspect that you haven't either.
Of course I have seen women wear a burka. How can you never
have seen a women wearing a burka?
Gareth said he's never *been* one. Not never *seen* one.
Why don't you read posts more carefully before replying? At
least you didn't put words in his mouth.
Well, why don't you read the rest of the thread before you jump in?
It's like Groundhog Day whenever you post.
Gareth writes: I've never been a burka wearing Muslim and I
suspect that you haven't either.
Yellow replies: Of course I have seen women wear a burka. How
can you never have seen a women wearing a burka?
Yellow turns a normal statement into a stand-up comedy routine!
You seem to be rather obsessive about this. Yellow apologised for
mis-reading Gareth's post and he accepted the apology. That was yesterday.
Yellow's misreading and hastiness in making a foolish reply is an
enduring trait which does not change if the exchange happened last
week or last month.
Norman Wells
2018-08-09 19:21:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Yellow
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
In article
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because
while I respect the argument that people should to a greater
or lesser degree be allowed to wear what they wish, I find
it heart breaking that there are women who feel this is how
they need to dress.
Why do you find it heart breaking? Is it heart breaking that
a Western woman isn't allowed to go topless in the local
swimming pool but her husband is?
Suppose I go swimming with my wife and kids and my daughter
says it's not fair that she has to cover her chest when her
brother doesn't. If I forbid her to go topless am I a
controlling male bully or a moral guardian upholding
standards of decency?
Suppose we are going to a wedding and my son wants to wear
tracksuit bottoms, trainers and a t-shirt. Am I wrong to
make him were a suit?
Their culture says it's wrong to go out without a burka, our
culture says women can't go out topless. Neither convention
makes any logical sense and I think the only reason we find
the latter acceptable but not the former is because that's
how we were brought up.
Are you really making the case that banning women from
exposing their breasts in a public swimming poll while man can
show their chests is equivalent to the expectation in some
familes/cultures that a women must be covered from head to toe
while men are not?
I'm not saying it's exactly the same. I'm saying that
analogies can be drawn, and that perhaps if you look at it in
that way you may better understand it.
I understand that the women who wear the burka operate within a
culture where women (have to) cover up when there are men
present other than their immediate family and husband.
What that has to do with topless bathing, which is perfectly
legal on my local beach, you are going to have to explain.
We even have an annual bike riding event where everyone goes starkers.
Post by Gareth
However, I don't really know as I've never been a burka wearing
Muslim and I suspect that you haven't either.
Of course I have seen women wear a burka. How can you never have
seen a women wearing a burka?
Gareth said he's never *been* one. Not never *seen* one.
Why don't you read posts more carefully before replying? At
least you didn't put words in his mouth.
Well, why don't you read the rest of the thread before you jump in?
It's like Groundhog Day whenever you post.
Gareth writes: I've never been a burka wearing Muslim and I suspect
that you haven't either.
Yellow replies: Of course I have seen women wear a burka. How can
you never have seen a women wearing a burka?
Yellow turns a normal statement into a stand-up comedy routine!
Do read the rest of the thread before you jump in with both feet,
there's a dear. It's been dealt with. It's history.
Fredxx
2018-08-07 16:19:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gareth
Post by Yellow
I find women wearing burkas a difficult subject because while I respect
the argument that people should to a greater or lesser degree be allowed
to wear what they wish, I find it heart breaking that there are women
who feel this is how they need to dress.
Why do you find it heart breaking? Is it heart breaking that a Western
woman isn't allowed to go topless in the local swimming pool but her
husband is?
Suppose I go swimming with my wife and kids and my daughter says it's
not fair that she has to cover her chest when her brother doesn't. If I
forbid her to go topless am I a controlling male bully or a moral
guardian upholding standards of decency?
It wasn't so long ago young girls (pre-teens) did go topless on the
beach. Was that such a crime?
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