Discussion:
The Lord's ammendment.
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Ophelia
2017-03-01 10:07:13 UTC
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I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?

If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe

It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk
James Harris
2017-03-01 10:26:34 UTC
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Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
Well said. If the Lords do this then hopefully the Commons will bat it
back, politely pointing out the Lords' stupidity in the process.
--
James Harris
Ophelia
2017-03-01 10:33:11 UTC
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Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
Well said. If the Lords do this then hopefully the Commons will bat it
back, politely pointing out the Lords' stupidity in the process.

James Harris

====

We can only hope. The lords have been advised of the problems this will
cause. Did Rudd not make a statement the other day, saying that we want
those people to be safe but also our people too!
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk
James Harris
2017-03-01 16:46:05 UTC
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Post by James Harris
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
Well said. If the Lords do this then hopefully the Commons will bat it
back, politely pointing out the Lords' stupidity in the process.
The Lords are discussing this right now

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/708e9efa-beac-4dbf-b201-a2d52a057372

Some of them have reminded the others that their role is to amend bills,
not to add to them.
--
James Harris
James Harris
2017-03-01 17:36:48 UTC
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Post by James Harris
Post by James Harris
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
Well said. If the Lords do this then hopefully the Commons will bat it
back, politely pointing out the Lords' stupidity in the process.
The Lords are discussing this right now
http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/708e9efa-beac-4dbf-b201-a2d52a057372
Some of them have reminded the others that their role is to amend bills,
not to add to them.
The Lords are annoying me, know, because they seem to be of arguing from
an absence of knowledge - while calling it knowledge!

For example, Douglas Hogg said 'here are some facts ... millions moved
here expecting to be able to stay.' And he based his argument on that.
What he seems to ignore is: "EU nationals who have lived continuously
and lawfully in the UK for at least 5 years automatically have a
permanent right to reside" (according to
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/statement-the-status-of-eu-nationals-in-the-uk).
So Hogg's "fact" is not, in fact, a germane fact!

There is no way that millions of people are going to be rounded up and
deported, as some suggest.
--
James Harris
pensive hamster
2017-03-01 17:55:13 UTC
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On Wednesday, 1 March 2017 17:36:59 UTC, James Harris wrote:
[...]
Post by James Harris
The Lords are annoying me, know, because they seem to be of arguing from
an absence of knowledge - while calling it knowledge!
For example, Douglas Hogg said 'here are some facts ... millions moved
here expecting to be able to stay.' And he based his argument on that.
What he seems to ignore is: "EU nationals who have lived continuously
and lawfully in the UK for at least 5 years automatically have a
permanent right to reside" (according to
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/statement-the-status-of-eu-nationals-in-the-uk).
Some reports say otherwise, eg.:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/28/dutch-woman-with-two-british-children-told-to-leave-uk-after-24-years
28 December 2016
A Dutch woman who has lived in the UK for 24 years, and has
two children with her British husband, has been told by the
Home Office that she should make arrangements to leave the
country after she applied for citizenship after the EU referendum.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/01/26/no-longer-welcome-the-eu-academics-in-britain-told-to-make-arrangements-to-leave/

Having lived and worked here for more than two decades
(they’re a national of another EU country) they decided to play it
safe after the Brexit vote and apply for leave to remain. Big mistake.

They received a threatening letter from the Home Office saying
they had no right to be here and they should “now make
arrangements to leave”. The letter was obviously wrong
– they had every right to be here under existing UK law –
but that didn’t lessen the emotional impact for my colleague,
whose whole future was suddenly thrown into uncertainty.
[so not exactly an "automatic" right then.]
Post by James Harris
So Hogg's "fact" is not, in fact, a germane fact!
There is no way that millions of people are going to be rounded up and
deported, as some suggest.
tim...
2017-03-01 18:34:55 UTC
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Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by James Harris
The Lords are annoying me, know, because they seem to be of arguing from
an absence of knowledge - while calling it knowledge!
For example, Douglas Hogg said 'here are some facts ... millions moved
here expecting to be able to stay.' And he based his argument on that.
What he seems to ignore is: "EU nationals who have lived continuously
and lawfully in the UK for at least 5 years automatically have a
permanent right to reside" (according to
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/statement-the-status-of-eu-nationals-in-the-uk).
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/28/dutch-woman-with-two-british-children-told-to-leave-uk-after-24-years
28 December 2016
A Dutch woman who has lived in the UK for 24 years, and has
two children with her British husband, has been told by the
Home Office that she should make arrangements to leave the
country after she applied for citizenship after the EU referendum.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/01/26/no-longer-welcome-the-eu-academics-in-britain-told-to-make-arrangements-to-leave/
It was just a letter

there's no substance behind it

tim
pensive hamster
2017-03-01 20:51:58 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by James Harris
The Lords are annoying me, know, because they seem to be of arguing from
an absence of knowledge - while calling it knowledge!
For example, Douglas Hogg said 'here are some facts ... millions moved
here expecting to be able to stay.' And he based his argument on that.
What he seems to ignore is: "EU nationals who have lived continuously
and lawfully in the UK for at least 5 years automatically have a
permanent right to reside" (according to
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/statement-the-status-of-eu-nationals-in-the-uk).
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/28/dutch-woman-with-two-british-children-told-to-leave-uk-after-24-years
28 December 2016
A Dutch woman who has lived in the UK for 24 years, and has
two children with her British husband, has been told by the
Home Office that she should make arrangements to leave the
country after she applied for citizenship after the EU referendum.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/01/26/no-longer-welcome-the-eu-academics-in-britain-told-to-make-arrangements-to-leave/
It was just a letter
there's no substance behind it
You are saying there is no substance behind a letter from the
Home Office?

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/home-office/about
'The Home Office is the lead government department for
immigration and passports, drugs policy, crime, fire,
counter-terrorism and police.'

Do you think they send out letters just for fun? You could be
right, for all I know, but I would be a bit surprised.
tim...
2017-03-02 10:00:07 UTC
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Post by pensive hamster
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by James Harris
The Lords are annoying me, know, because they seem to be of arguing from
an absence of knowledge - while calling it knowledge!
For example, Douglas Hogg said 'here are some facts ... millions moved
here expecting to be able to stay.' And he based his argument on that.
What he seems to ignore is: "EU nationals who have lived continuously
and lawfully in the UK for at least 5 years automatically have a
permanent right to reside" (according to
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/statement-the-status-of-eu-nationals-in-the-uk).
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/28/dutch-woman-with-two-british-children-told-to-leave-uk-after-24-years
28 December 2016
A Dutch woman who has lived in the UK for 24 years, and has
two children with her British husband, has been told by the
Home Office that she should make arrangements to leave the
country after she applied for citizenship after the EU referendum.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/01/26/no-longer-welcome-the-eu-academics-in-britain-told-to-make-arrangements-to-leave/
It was just a letter
there's no substance behind it
You are saying there is no substance behind a letter from the
Home Office?
this particular one

yes, absolutely
Post by pensive hamster
Do you think they send out letters just for fun? You could be
right, for all I know, but I would be a bit surprised.
well they have to reply don't they?

and if they are sending a letter to someone saying "you application for
citizenship has been rejected", it doesn't seem unreasonable to add at the
end, "this may leave you at risk of deportation" (which is, I believe what
the letter says)

Even though they know damned well that the chances of that actually happing
are of lottery win proportions

tim
pensive hamster
2017-03-02 10:48:25 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by James Harris
The Lords are annoying me, know, because they seem to be of arguing from
an absence of knowledge - while calling it knowledge!
For example, Douglas Hogg said 'here are some facts ... millions moved
here expecting to be able to stay.' And he based his argument on that.
What he seems to ignore is: "EU nationals who have lived continuously
and lawfully in the UK for at least 5 years automatically have a
permanent right to reside" (according to
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/statement-the-status-of-eu-nationals-in-the-uk).
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/28/dutch-woman-with-two-british-children-told-to-leave-uk-after-24-years
28 December 2016
A Dutch woman who has lived in the UK for 24 years, and has
two children with her British husband, has been told by the
Home Office that she should make arrangements to leave the
country after she applied for citizenship after the EU referendum.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/01/26/no-longer-welcome-the-eu-academics-in-britain-told-to-make-arrangements-to-leave/
It was just a letter
there's no substance behind it
You are saying there is no substance behind a letter from the
Home Office?
this particular one
yes, absolutely
Post by pensive hamster
Do you think they send out letters just for fun? You could be
right, for all I know, but I would be a bit surprised.
well they have to reply don't they?
and if they are sending a letter to someone saying "you application for
citizenship has been rejected", it doesn't seem unreasonable to add at the
end, "this may leave you at risk of deportation" (which is, I believe what
the letter says)
The above-linked Guardian article reports that the Home Office
letter said:

“As you appear to have no alternative basis of stay in the United
Kingdom you should now make arrangements to leave”.

Towards the end of the article, the Guardian also reports that:
'German aerospace executive Lars Graefe, who has lived in the
UK since 1998, and is married to a British woman, said he received
a similar “make-preparations-to-leave” letter from the Home Office.'
Post by tim...
Even though they know damned well that the chances of that actually happing
are of lottery win proportions
If they know that, why on earth do they send out
“make-preparations-to-leave” letters??
tim...
2017-03-02 13:51:10 UTC
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Post by pensive hamster
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by James Harris
The Lords are annoying me, know, because they seem to be of arguing from
an absence of knowledge - while calling it knowledge!
For example, Douglas Hogg said 'here are some facts ... millions moved
here expecting to be able to stay.' And he based his argument on that.
What he seems to ignore is: "EU nationals who have lived continuously
and lawfully in the UK for at least 5 years automatically have a
permanent right to reside" (according to
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/statement-the-status-of-eu-nationals-in-the-uk).
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/28/dutch-woman-with-two-british-children-told-to-leave-uk-after-24-years
28 December 2016
A Dutch woman who has lived in the UK for 24 years, and has
two children with her British husband, has been told by the
Home Office that she should make arrangements to leave the
country after she applied for citizenship after the EU referendum.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/01/26/no-longer-welcome-the-eu-academics-in-britain-told-to-make-arrangements-to-leave/
It was just a letter
there's no substance behind it
You are saying there is no substance behind a letter from the
Home Office?
this particular one
yes, absolutely
Post by pensive hamster
Do you think they send out letters just for fun? You could be
right, for all I know, but I would be a bit surprised.
well they have to reply don't they?
and if they are sending a letter to someone saying "you application for
citizenship has been rejected", it doesn't seem unreasonable to add at the
end, "this may leave you at risk of deportation" (which is, I believe what
the letter says)
The above-linked Guardian article reports that the Home Office
“As you appear to have no alternative basis of stay in the United
Kingdom you should now make arrangements to leave”.
well that's factually wrong isn't it

until we leave the EU they do have an alternative basis for staying

so sending that letter is a mistake, and there can't possibly be a means to
act upon the threat
Post by pensive hamster
'German aerospace executive Lars Graefe, who has lived in the
UK since 1998, and is married to a British woman, said he received
a similar “make-preparations-to-leave” letter from the Home Office.'
Post by tim...
Even though they know damned well that the chances of that actually happing
are of lottery win proportions
If they know that, why on earth do they send out
“make-preparations-to-leave” letters??
why do companies put terms and conditions in their contacts that they know
to be unenforceable?

tim
MM
2017-03-02 18:09:32 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
Post by tim...
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by James Harris
The Lords are annoying me, know, because they seem to be of arguing from
an absence of knowledge - while calling it knowledge!
For example, Douglas Hogg said 'here are some facts ... millions moved
here expecting to be able to stay.' And he based his argument on that.
What he seems to ignore is: "EU nationals who have lived continuously
and lawfully in the UK for at least 5 years automatically have a
permanent right to reside" (according to
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/statement-the-status-of-eu-nationals-in-the-uk).
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/28/dutch-woman-with-two-british-children-told-to-leave-uk-after-24-years
28 December 2016
A Dutch woman who has lived in the UK for 24 years, and has
two children with her British husband, has been told by the
Home Office that she should make arrangements to leave the
country after she applied for citizenship after the EU referendum.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/01/26/no-longer-welcome-the-eu-academics-in-britain-told-to-make-arrangements-to-leave/
It was just a letter
there's no substance behind it
You are saying there is no substance behind a letter from the
Home Office?
this particular one
yes, absolutely
Post by pensive hamster
Do you think they send out letters just for fun? You could be
right, for all I know, but I would be a bit surprised.
well they have to reply don't they?
and if they are sending a letter to someone saying "you application for
citizenship has been rejected", it doesn't seem unreasonable to add at the
end, "this may leave you at risk of deportation" (which is, I believe what
the letter says)
The above-linked Guardian article reports that the Home Office
“As you appear to have no alternative basis of stay in the United
Kingdom you should now make arrangements to leave”.
well that's factually wrong isn't it
until we leave the EU they do have an alternative basis for staying
so sending that letter is a mistake, and there can't possibly be a means to
act upon the threat
Post by pensive hamster
'German aerospace executive Lars Graefe, who has lived in the
UK since 1998, and is married to a British woman, said he received
a similar “make-preparations-to-leave” letter from the Home Office.'
Post by tim...
Even though they know damned well that the chances of that actually happing
are of lottery win proportions
If they know that, why on earth do they send out
“make-preparations-to-leave” letters??
why do companies put terms and conditions in their contacts that they know
to be unenforceable?
tim
Self-deluded Brexiters, always in denial! Believe what you want to to
believe. But he's right and you're wrong.

MM
James Harris
2017-03-01 19:00:08 UTC
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Post by James Harris
Post by James Harris
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
Well said. If the Lords do this then hopefully the Commons will bat it
back, politely pointing out the Lords' stupidity in the process.
The Lords are discussing this right now
http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/708e9efa-beac-4dbf-b201-a2d52a057372
Lots of good points made by George Bridges representing the government
(at 18:12 in the above link, if you want to listen to it).

* All agree they want fairness. All agree that they have a duty both to
EU nationals here and UK nationals in the EU. All in Lords recognise the
uncertainty. All want to do what is ethically and morally right and to
provide certainty for 900,000 Brits abroad and more than 4,000,000
people overall. The only question is How.

* Between now and date of exit nothing will change for EU nationals
living in the UK. Government will remain bound by ECHR human rights
rules after leaving the UK and will comply with them throughout.

* The government will bring forth a separate immigration bill. Nothing
will change for any EU citizen without approval of both houses of
parliament.

* The government recognises the problems caused to people by lack of
certainty and tried to get agreement. But some in the EU insisted that
their mantra "no negotiation without notification" was, itself,
non-negotiable [it is acceptable, IMO, to feel a sense of disgust at
this point].

* Given that the EU have decided to make people subject to negotiation,
if the UK were to give a unilateral guarantee, how long would it take
for Brits living abroad to receive similar assurance [and what would the
UK negotiators have to give up to get it]?
--
James Harris
Ian Jackson
2017-03-01 10:44:20 UTC
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Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured.
It's the only honourable thing to do (and we should be pleased to do
it).

These EU immigrants came here according to the UK (and, of course, EU)
laws which prevailed at the time (and, arguably, still do until we
revoke them). It's simply wrong (and in most cases illegal) to change
the Ts & Cs respectively.
Post by Ophelia
Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
Do you really think they don't care a damn?
Post by Ophelia
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
She has no power to influence any tit-for-tat ruling on those who will
no longer be our fellow partners. However, I very much doubt that even
she is planning to round up all our EU immigrants, put them in
concentration camps on the Isle Of Man, and hold them as hostage in
order to ensure that UK citizens are treated well.
Post by Ophelia
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
The Lords are no more stupid than most of us - and (hopefully) most are
cleverer than the more stupid of us.
--
Ian
burfordTjustice
2017-03-01 11:14:42 UTC
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On Wed, 1 Mar 2017 10:07:13 -0000
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK
should have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care
about our people on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
They are your Lords, you will accept what they say
as best for all. Now run along and STFU>
Nightjar
2017-03-01 12:42:18 UTC
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Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured.
Strictly speaking, they are reviving an amendment that the Commons
failed to get accepted. The importance of which is that we don't start
to lose people we need because they are uncertain about their future in
the UK.
Post by Ophelia
Don't they care about our
people
on the continent?
I am sure they do, but they have no power to control what the EU chooses
to do.
Post by Ophelia
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
I thought the Leave position was that the EU needs us more than we need
them, so all negotiations would be from a position of power.
--
--

Colin Bignell
abelard
2017-03-01 13:00:18 UTC
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Post by Nightjar
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured.
Strictly speaking, they are reviving an amendment that the Commons
failed to get accepted. The importance of which is that we don't start
to lose people we need because they are uncertain about their future in
the UK.
Post by Ophelia
Don't they care about our
people
on the continent?
I am sure they do, but they have no power to control what the EU chooses
to do.
Post by Ophelia
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
I thought the Leave position was that the EU needs us more than we need
them, so all negotiations would be from a position of power.
my information is there are more of them in britain than brits in
europe

the eussr bureaucrats are behaving foolishly yet again

the serious decisions will be made by the governments, not by
the jobsworths
--
www.abelard.org
Handsome Jack
2017-03-01 12:57:16 UTC
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Post by Nightjar
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured.
Strictly speaking, they are reviving an amendment that the Commons
failed to get accepted. The importance of which is that we don't start
to lose people we need because they are uncertain about their future in
the UK.
Fair enough, but that's only one factor to be taken into account.
Post by Nightjar
Post by Ophelia
Don't they care about our
people
on the continent?
I am sure they do, but they have no power to control what the EU
chooses to do.
They may not, but HMG does. It can tell EU member states that they won't
get what they want unless we get what we want. But we can't tell them
that if we give them what they want *first*.
Post by Nightjar
Post by Ophelia
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
I thought the Leave position was that the EU needs us more than we need
them, so all negotiations would be from a position of power.
That's why it would be stupid to give away the negotiating power that we
are starting with.
--
Jack
Ian Jackson
2017-03-01 13:15:10 UTC
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Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Nightjar
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured.
Strictly speaking, they are reviving an amendment that the Commons
failed to get accepted. The importance of which is that we don't start
to lose people we need because they are uncertain about their future
in the UK.
Fair enough, but that's only one factor to be taken into account.
Post by Nightjar
Post by Ophelia
Don't they care about our
people
on the continent?
I am sure they do, but they have no power to control what the EU
chooses to do.
They may not, but HMG does. It can tell EU member states that they
won't get what they want unless we get what we want. But we can't tell
them that if we give them what they want *first*.
Post by Nightjar
Post by Ophelia
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
I thought the Leave position was that the EU needs us more than we
need them, so all negotiations would be from a position of power.
That's why it would be stupid to give away the negotiating power that
we are starting with.
Call me old-fashioned if you want, but I would hope that our now
turncoat, pro-brexit government would still be above trying to use
existing EU immigrants to the UK as hostages - or worse still,
cannon-fodder.
--
Ian
tim...
2017-03-01 16:06:35 UTC
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Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured.
Strictly speaking, they are reviving an amendment that the Commons failed
to get accepted. The importance of which is that we don't start to lose
people we need because they are uncertain about their future in the UK.
Fair enough, but that's only one factor to be taken into account.
Post by Ophelia
Don't they care about our
people
on the continent?
I am sure they do, but they have no power to control what the EU chooses
to do.
They may not, but HMG does. It can tell EU member states that they won't
get what they want unless we get what we want. But we can't tell them that
if we give them what they want *first*.
Post by Ophelia
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
I thought the Leave position was that the EU needs us more than we need
them, so all negotiations would be from a position of power.
That's why it would be stupid to give away the negotiating power that we
are starting with.
Call me old-fashioned if you want, but I would hope that our now turncoat,
pro-brexit government would still be above trying to use existing EU
immigrants to the UK as hostages - or worse still, cannon-fodder.
wny not

that's exactly what the other side are doing

tim
harry
2017-03-01 17:11:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Nightjar
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured.
Strictly speaking, they are reviving an amendment that the Commons
failed to get accepted. The importance of which is that we don't start
to lose people we need because they are uncertain about their future
in the UK.
Fair enough, but that's only one factor to be taken into account.
Post by Nightjar
Post by Ophelia
Don't they care about our
people
on the continent?
I am sure they do, but they have no power to control what the EU
chooses to do.
They may not, but HMG does. It can tell EU member states that they
won't get what they want unless we get what we want. But we can't tell
them that if we give them what they want *first*.
Post by Nightjar
Post by Ophelia
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
I thought the Leave position was that the EU needs us more than we
need them, so all negotiations would be from a position of power.
That's why it would be stupid to give away the negotiating power that
we are starting with.
Call me old-fashioned if you want, but I would hope that our now
turncoat, pro-brexit government would still be above trying to use
existing EU immigrants to the UK as hostages - or worse still,
cannon-fodder.
--
Ian
You are clearly full of shit.
Handsome Jack
2017-03-01 18:27:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Handsome Jack
That's why it would be stupid to give away the negotiating power that
we are starting with.
Call me old-fashioned if you want, but I would hope that our now
turncoat, pro-brexit government would still be above trying to use
existing EU immigrants to the UK as hostages - or worse still,
cannon-fodder.
AFAIK the quisling European establishment has not yet made an
unconditional promise that British people living on the continent can
stay there after Brexit.

So would you like to make a post applying the same half-witted invective
to them as you just did to our government?

Please don't ignore this request or give an evasive answer, because it
will be repeated every time you trot out the same tendentious nonsense
you have posted above.
--
Jack
Ian Jackson
2017-03-01 19:25:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Handsome Jack
That's why it would be stupid to give away the negotiating power that
we are starting with.
Call me old-fashioned if you want, but I would hope that our now
turncoat, pro-brexit government would still be above trying to use
existing EU immigrants to the UK as hostages - or worse still,
cannon-fodder.
AFAIK the quisling European establishment has not yet made an
unconditional promise that British people living on the continent can
stay there after Brexit.
So would you like to make a post applying the same half-witted
invective to them as you just did to our government?
Please don't ignore this request or give an evasive answer, because it
will be repeated every time you trot out the same tendentious nonsense
you have posted above.
Until we declare A50, why should the 'quisling European establishment'
be making any offers to us?
--
Ian
James Harris
2017-03-01 19:42:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Handsome Jack
That's why it would be stupid to give away the negotiating power
that we are starting with.
Call me old-fashioned if you want, but I would hope that our now
turncoat, pro-brexit government would still be above trying to use
existing EU immigrants to the UK as hostages - or worse still,
cannon-fodder.
AFAIK the quisling European establishment has not yet made an
unconditional promise that British people living on the continent can
stay there after Brexit.
So would you like to make a post applying the same half-witted
invective to them as you just did to our government?
Please don't ignore this request or give an evasive answer, because it
will be repeated every time you trot out the same tendentious nonsense
you have posted above.
Until we declare A50, why should the 'quisling European establishment'
be making any offers to us?
Not sure what kind of offers you have in mind but I would have thought
that providing reassurance to an estimated four million of their
citizens would have been the decent thing to do. They didn't even try.

Most of them were - and are - willing to get this sorted out. Our
European neighbours are pleasant, decent people, in the main. But
there's a cadre of them which is detached from reality. Can you see that
within that cadre the EU is their focus and that people are not?
--
James Harris
Handsome Jack
2017-03-02 07:45:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Ian Jackson
Call me old-fashioned if you want, but I would hope that our now
turncoat, pro-brexit government would still be above trying to use
existing EU immigrants to the UK as hostages - or worse still,
cannon-fodder.
AFAIK the quisling European establishment has not yet made an
unconditional promise that British people living on the continent can
stay there after Brexit.
So would you like to make a post applying the same half-witted
invective to them as you just did to our government?
Please don't ignore this request or give an evasive answer, because it
will be repeated every time you trot out the same tendentious nonsense
you have posted above.
Until we declare A50, why should the 'quisling European establishment'
be making any offers to us?
Evasive answer.

And so the next question. Until we declare Article 50, why should we be
making any offers to the quisling European establishment?
--
Jack
Ophelia
2017-03-02 12:07:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Ian Jackson
Call me old-fashioned if you want, but I would hope that our now
turncoat, pro-brexit government would still be above trying to use
existing EU immigrants to the UK as hostages - or worse still,
cannon-fodder.
AFAIK the quisling European establishment has not yet made an
unconditional promise that British people living on the continent can
stay there after Brexit.
So would you like to make a post applying the same half-witted
invective to them as you just did to our government?
Please don't ignore this request or give an evasive answer, because it
will be repeated every time you trot out the same tendentious nonsense
you have posted above.
Until we declare A50, why should the 'quisling European establishment'
be making any offers to us?
Evasive answer.

And so the next question. Until we declare Article 50, why should we be
making any offers to the quisling European establishment?

Jack
===

Why don't we just give EU everything and have nothing left to bargain with.

Of course, the EU will give us everything we want .. no problem.
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk
R. Mark Clayton
2017-03-02 12:16:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Ian Jackson
Call me old-fashioned if you want, but I would hope that our now
turncoat, pro-brexit government would still be above trying to use
existing EU immigrants to the UK as hostages - or worse still,
cannon-fodder.
AFAIK the quisling European establishment has not yet made an
unconditional promise that British people living on the continent can
stay there after Brexit.
So would you like to make a post applying the same half-witted
invective to them as you just did to our government?
Please don't ignore this request or give an evasive answer, because it
will be repeated every time you trot out the same tendentious nonsense
you have posted above.
Until we declare A50, why should the 'quisling European establishment'
be making any offers to us?
Evasive answer.
And so the next question. Until we declare Article 50, why should we be
making any offers to the quisling European establishment?
Jack
===
Why don't we just give EU everything and have nothing left to bargain with.
Of course, the EU will give us everything we want .. no problem.
Ooh the irony! This incredibly weak bargaining position was pointe out before the vote. Even after Brexit believers somehow think that the UK has the upper hand in any negotiations, even though failure will hurt the UK roughly ten times as much as any EU country (except Ireland).

Now the rightard headbangers amongst them want to play hardball - give us a free market or the UK will will ship back all your nationals back east in cattle cars...
Post by Handsome Jack
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk
tim...
2017-03-02 13:53:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Ian Jackson
Call me old-fashioned if you want, but I would hope that our now
turncoat, pro-brexit government would still be above trying to use
existing EU immigrants to the UK as hostages - or worse still,
cannon-fodder.
AFAIK the quisling European establishment has not yet made an
unconditional promise that British people living on the continent can
stay there after Brexit.
So would you like to make a post applying the same half-witted
invective to them as you just did to our government?
Please don't ignore this request or give an evasive answer, because it
will be repeated every time you trot out the same tendentious nonsense
you have posted above.
Until we declare A50, why should the 'quisling European establishment'
be making any offers to us?
Evasive answer.
And so the next question. Until we declare Article 50, why should we be
making any offers to the quisling European establishment?
Jack
===
Why don't we just give EU everything and have nothing left to bargain with.
Of course, the EU will give us everything we want .. no problem.
Ooh the irony! This incredibly weak bargaining position was pointe out
before the vote. Even after Brexit believers somehow think that the UK
has the upper hand in any negotiations,
no-one ever claimed we have the upper hand

just that we have sufficient cards for us to come away with a reasonable
deal rather than "bye bye, you leave with nothing"

but that assumption is predicated upon us keeping all our cards for the
negotiation, not throwing them away beforehand

tim
MM
2017-03-02 18:12:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Ian Jackson
Call me old-fashioned if you want, but I would hope that our now
turncoat, pro-brexit government would still be above trying to use
existing EU immigrants to the UK as hostages - or worse still,
cannon-fodder.
AFAIK the quisling European establishment has not yet made an
unconditional promise that British people living on the continent can
stay there after Brexit.
So would you like to make a post applying the same half-witted
invective to them as you just did to our government?
Please don't ignore this request or give an evasive answer, because it
will be repeated every time you trot out the same tendentious nonsense
you have posted above.
Until we declare A50, why should the 'quisling European establishment'
be making any offers to us?
Evasive answer.
And so the next question. Until we declare Article 50, why should we be
making any offers to the quisling European establishment?
Jack
===
Why don't we just give EU everything and have nothing left to bargain with.
Of course, the EU will give us everything we want .. no problem.
Ooh the irony! This incredibly weak bargaining position was pointe out
before the vote. Even after Brexit believers somehow think that the UK
has the upper hand in any negotiations,
no-one ever claimed we have the upper hand
Oh? So what was all that talk about "they need us more than we need
them"? The Brexiters have been belligerent towards the EU ever since
June 24 after a referendum they never thought they would win.

MM
Vidcapper
2017-03-03 07:39:55 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by MM
Oh? So what was all that talk about "they need us more than we need
them"? The Brexiters have been belligerent towards the EU ever since
June 24 after a referendum they never thought they would win.
Wrong again - our feeling about the EU have not changed in years, Our
'belligerence' is directed towards those Remoaners who piss all over the
referendum result.

As for the claim that the views of the 48% have been ignored - well,
Europhiles seemed to have had no problem with ignoring the views of the
EU's opponents for the last 40 years!
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
Yellow
2017-03-02 15:12:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Ophelia
Of course, the EU will give us everything we want .. no problem.
Ooh the irony! This incredibly weak bargaining position was pointe out
before the vote. Even after Brexit believers somehow think that the UK
has the upper hand in any negotiations, even though failure will hurt
the UK roughly ten times as much as any EU country (except Ireland).

No one has has claimed the UK will have the upper hand.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Now the rightard headbangers amongst them want to play hardball - give
us a free market or the UK will will ship back all your nationals back
east in cattle cars...

And no one has said that either so stop being so hysterical.
Ian Jackson
2017-03-02 15:30:11 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Yellow
No one has has claimed the UK will have the upper hand.
Apart from frequent Brexiteer statements that we are in a strong
bargaining position, because we import more from the EU than they do
from us.
--
Ian
Yellow
2017-03-02 15:31:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
No one has has claimed the UK will have the upper hand.
Apart from frequent Brexiteer statements that we are in a strong
bargaining position,
Not the same as claiming that the UK has the upper hand.
Post by Ian Jackson
because we import more from the EU than they do
from us.
MM
2017-03-02 18:13:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
No one has has claimed the UK will have the upper hand.
Apart from frequent Brexiteer statements that we are in a strong
bargaining position,
Not the same as claiming that the UK has the upper hand.
Noooo, not the same at all...!

Honestly? Really? I mean, REALLY?

MM
Yellow
2017-03-02 19:17:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by MM
Post by Yellow
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
No one has has claimed the UK will have the upper hand.
Apart from frequent Brexiteer statements that we are in a strong
bargaining position,
Not the same as claiming that the UK has the upper hand.
Noooo, not the same at all...!
Honestly? Really? I mean, REALLY?
MM
Clearly, English is not your first language.
harry
2017-03-01 17:10:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Nightjar
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured.
Strictly speaking, they are reviving an amendment that the Commons
failed to get accepted. The importance of which is that we don't start
to lose people we need because they are uncertain about their future in
the UK.
Post by Ophelia
Don't they care about our
people
on the continent?
I am sure they do, but they have no power to control what the EU chooses
to do.
Yes we have.
Tit for tat.
If we let them stay here regardless, we will have no power.
Are you so thick you can't see this?
Ophelia
2017-03-01 17:26:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Nightjar
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured.
Strictly speaking, they are reviving an amendment that the Commons
failed to get accepted. The importance of which is that we don't start
to lose people we need because they are uncertain about their future in
the UK.
Post by Ophelia
Don't they care about our
people
on the continent?
I am sure they do, but they have no power to control what the EU chooses
to do.
Yes we have.
Tit for tat.
If we let them stay here regardless, we will have no power.
Are you so thick you can't see this?

==

+1
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk
Nightjar
2017-03-01 18:29:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by harry
Post by Nightjar
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured.
Strictly speaking, they are reviving an amendment that the Commons
failed to get accepted. The importance of which is that we don't start
to lose people we need because they are uncertain about their future in
the UK.
Post by Ophelia
Don't they care about our
people
on the continent?
I am sure they do, but they have no power to control what the EU chooses
to do.
Yes we have.
Tit for tat.
If we let them stay here regardless, we will have no power.
Are you so thick you can't see this?
As I said in the bit you chose to snip, I thought that the Leave claim
was that we are more important to the EU than they are to us, so any
negotiations would be from a position of strength. That claim hardly
stands up if we have to hold EU citizens to ransom to get what we want.

In any case, any claims that we could expel them are naive at best. We
simply don't have enough unemployed to replace all the EU citizens
working in the UK, even if they were suitable for / willing to do / in
the right place for the jobs. Much better to turn the inescapable fact
that they are going to have to stay into the moral high ground and say
we are going to guarantee their status, now, what are you going to do
about UK citizens working in the EU?
--
--

Colin Bignell
Handsome Jack
2017-03-01 18:32:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Nightjar
Post by harry
Post by Nightjar
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured.
Strictly speaking, they are reviving an amendment that the Commons
failed to get accepted. The importance of which is that we don't start
to lose people we need because they are uncertain about their future in
the UK.
Post by Ophelia
Don't they care about our
people
on the continent?
I am sure they do, but they have no power to control what the EU chooses
to do.
Yes we have.
Tit for tat.
If we let them stay here regardless, we will have no power.
Are you so thick you can't see this?
As I said in the bit you chose to snip, I thought that the Leave claim
was that we are more important to the EU than they are to us, so any
negotiations would be from a position of strength. That claim hardly
stands up if we have to hold EU citizens to ransom to get what we want.
Balls.
Post by Nightjar
In any case, any claims that we could expel them are naive at best.
Good job nobody's made any such claims then. It is purely your own lying
invention.
--
Jack
harry
2017-03-02 07:45:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Nightjar
Post by harry
Post by Nightjar
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured.
Strictly speaking, they are reviving an amendment that the Commons
failed to get accepted. The importance of which is that we don't start
to lose people we need because they are uncertain about their future in
the UK.
Post by Ophelia
Don't they care about our
people
on the continent?
I am sure they do, but they have no power to control what the EU chooses
to do.
Yes we have.
Tit for tat.
If we let them stay here regardless, we will have no power.
Are you so thick you can't see this?
As I said in the bit you chose to snip, I thought that the Leave claim
was that we are more important to the EU than they are to us, so any
negotiations would be from a position of strength. That claim hardly
stands up if we have to hold EU citizens to ransom to get what we want.
In any case, any claims that we could expel them are naive at best. We
simply don't have enough unemployed to replace all the EU citizens
working in the UK, even if they were suitable for / willing to do / in
the right place for the jobs. Much better to turn the inescapable fact
that they are going to have to stay into the moral high ground and say
we are going to guarantee their status, now, what are you going to do
about UK citizens working in the EU?
--
--
Colin Bignell
You really are brain dead.
There are far more EUSSR citizens in the UK than vice versa.
That is the position of strength.
They will be treated in exactly the way the EUSSR treats UK citizens in the EUSSR.
That is the inducement.

Guarantee EUSSR citizens the unqualified right to remain here and the inducement is lost.

Saint Theresa May has already made an offer and been refused.
So we know the EUSSR is run by a bunch of arseholes.
(Though we knew that already)

There, is that simple enough for you?
Nightjar
2017-03-02 09:33:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by harry
Post by Nightjar
Post by harry
Post by Nightjar
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured.
Strictly speaking, they are reviving an amendment that the Commons
failed to get accepted. The importance of which is that we don't start
to lose people we need because they are uncertain about their future in
the UK.
Post by Ophelia
Don't they care about our
people
on the continent?
I am sure they do, but they have no power to control what the EU chooses
to do.
Yes we have.
Tit for tat.
If we let them stay here regardless, we will have no power.
Are you so thick you can't see this?
As I said in the bit you chose to snip, I thought that the Leave claim
was that we are more important to the EU than they are to us, so any
negotiations would be from a position of strength. That claim hardly
stands up if we have to hold EU citizens to ransom to get what we want.
In any case, any claims that we could expel them are naive at best. We
simply don't have enough unemployed to replace all the EU citizens
working in the UK, even if they were suitable for / willing to do / in
the right place for the jobs. Much better to turn the inescapable fact
that they are going to have to stay into the moral high ground and say
we are going to guarantee their status, now, what are you going to do
about UK citizens working in the EU?
--
--
Colin Bignell
You really are brain dead.
There are far more EUSSR citizens in the UK than vice versa.
That is the position of strength.
They will be treated in exactly the way the EUSSR treats UK citizens in the EUSSR.
That is the inducement.
Guarantee EUSSR citizens the unqualified right to remain here and the inducement is lost.
Saint Theresa May has already made an offer and been refused.
So we know the EUSSR is run by a bunch of arseholes.
(Though we knew that already)
There, is that simple enough for you?
I understand your position perfectly. I simply consider it morally
reprehensible.
--
--

Colin Bignell
tim...
2017-03-02 10:02:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Nightjar
Post by harry
Post by Nightjar
Post by harry
Post by Nightjar
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured.
Strictly speaking, they are reviving an amendment that the Commons
failed to get accepted. The importance of which is that we don't start
to lose people we need because they are uncertain about their future in
the UK.
Post by Ophelia
Don't they care about our
people
on the continent?
I am sure they do, but they have no power to control what the EU chooses
to do.
Yes we have.
Tit for tat.
If we let them stay here regardless, we will have no power.
Are you so thick you can't see this?
As I said in the bit you chose to snip, I thought that the Leave claim
was that we are more important to the EU than they are to us, so any
negotiations would be from a position of strength. That claim hardly
stands up if we have to hold EU citizens to ransom to get what we want.
In any case, any claims that we could expel them are naive at best. We
simply don't have enough unemployed to replace all the EU citizens
working in the UK, even if they were suitable for / willing to do / in
the right place for the jobs. Much better to turn the inescapable fact
that they are going to have to stay into the moral high ground and say
we are going to guarantee their status, now, what are you going to do
about UK citizens working in the EU?
--
--
Colin Bignell
You really are brain dead.
There are far more EUSSR citizens in the UK than vice versa.
That is the position of strength.
They will be treated in exactly the way the EUSSR treats UK citizens in the EUSSR.
That is the inducement.
Guarantee EUSSR citizens the unqualified right to remain here and the inducement is lost.
Saint Theresa May has already made an offer and been refused.
So we know the EUSSR is run by a bunch of arseholes.
(Though we knew that already)
There, is that simple enough for you?
I understand your position perfectly. I simply consider it morally
reprehensible.
as is the position of the other side

I consider you singling out one side to be guilty whilst the other not,
completely and utterly biased

tim
Yellow
2017-03-02 15:16:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Nightjar
Post by harry
You really are brain dead.
There are far more EUSSR citizens in the UK than vice versa.
That is the position of strength.
They will be treated in exactly the way the EUSSR treats UK citizens in the EUSSR.
That is the inducement.
Guarantee EUSSR citizens the unqualified right to remain here and the inducement is lost.
Saint Theresa May has already made an offer and been refused.
So we know the EUSSR is run by a bunch of arseholes.
(Though we knew that already)
There, is that simple enough for you?
I understand your position perfectly. I simply consider it morally
reprehensible.
And the EU? Is their position of not guaranteeing the rights of UK
citizens currently living in the EU equally morally reprehensible in
your view?

Or is that somehow different?
Nightjar
2017-03-02 17:13:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by Nightjar
Post by harry
You really are brain dead.
There are far more EUSSR citizens in the UK than vice versa.
That is the position of strength.
They will be treated in exactly the way the EUSSR treats UK citizens in the EUSSR.
That is the inducement.
Guarantee EUSSR citizens the unqualified right to remain here and the inducement is lost.
Saint Theresa May has already made an offer and been refused.
So we know the EUSSR is run by a bunch of arseholes.
(Though we knew that already)
There, is that simple enough for you?
I understand your position perfectly. I simply consider it morally
reprehensible.
And the EU? Is their position of not guaranteeing the rights of UK
citizens currently living in the EU equally morally reprehensible in
your view?
I think they should and probably will. However, that is not within the
gift of Parliament. Protecting the rights of EU citizens working in the
UK is and doing so is the right thing to do. Suggesting that we should
hold them to ransom is what I consider to be morally reprehensible.
--
--

Colin Bignell
Yellow
2017-03-02 19:15:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Nightjar
Post by Yellow
Post by Nightjar
Post by harry
You really are brain dead.
There are far more EUSSR citizens in the UK than vice versa.
That is the position of strength.
They will be treated in exactly the way the EUSSR treats UK citizens in the EUSSR.
That is the inducement.
Guarantee EUSSR citizens the unqualified right to remain here and the inducement is lost.
Saint Theresa May has already made an offer and been refused.
So we know the EUSSR is run by a bunch of arseholes.
(Though we knew that already)
There, is that simple enough for you?
I understand your position perfectly. I simply consider it morally
reprehensible.
And the EU? Is their position of not guaranteeing the rights of UK
citizens currently living in the EU equally morally reprehensible in
your view?
I think they should and probably will.
So why don't they? Answer me that.
Post by Nightjar
However, that is not within the gift of Parliament.
But it is - perhaps - if Parliament does not agree to safe guard the
position of EU citizens unilaterally.

Once that is done however, the EU can please themselves about what they
do for UK citizens but until that point a mutually beneficial agreement
can be reached.

Do what the HoLs wants and I agree - it will overnight become completely
out of Parliament's hands what happens to its citizens.
Post by Nightjar
Protecting the rights of EU citizens working in the
UK is and doing so is the right thing to do.
I agree, but not at the expense of protecting the rights of UK citizens.
Post by Nightjar
Suggesting that we should
hold them to ransom is what I consider to be morally reprehensible.
And I consider your morality gauge to be broken.
Nightjar
2017-03-02 19:30:05 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
...
Post by Nightjar
Post by Yellow
And the EU? Is their position of not guaranteeing the rights of UK
citizens currently living in the EU equally morally reprehensible in
your view?
I think they should and probably will.
So why don't they? Answer me that...
Because we have not yet officially started the process of leaving the
EU. Until that happens, the EU will not start negotiations on anything.
--
--

Colin Bignell
MM
2017-03-02 18:14:43 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by Nightjar
Post by harry
You really are brain dead.
There are far more EUSSR citizens in the UK than vice versa.
That is the position of strength.
They will be treated in exactly the way the EUSSR treats UK citizens in the EUSSR.
That is the inducement.
Guarantee EUSSR citizens the unqualified right to remain here and the inducement is lost.
Saint Theresa May has already made an offer and been refused.
So we know the EUSSR is run by a bunch of arseholes.
(Though we knew that already)
There, is that simple enough for you?
I understand your position perfectly. I simply consider it morally
reprehensible.
And the EU? Is their position of not guaranteeing the rights of UK
citizens currently living in the EU equally morally reprehensible in
your view?
"No negotiation before notification"

I see it has not sunk it yet with you. I'll repeat it once again, just
in case you're thick or something:

"No negotiation before notification"

MM
Handsome Jack
2017-03-02 16:54:29 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Nightjar
Post by harry
There are far more EUSSR citizens in the UK than vice versa.
That is the position of strength.
They will be treated in exactly the way the EUSSR treats UK citizens in the EUSSR.
That is the inducement.
Guarantee EUSSR citizens the unqualified right to remain here and the inducement is lost.
Saint Theresa May has already made an offer and been refused.
So we know the EUSSR is run by a bunch of arseholes.
(Though we knew that already)
There, is that simple enough for you?
I understand your position perfectly. I simply consider it morally
reprehensible.
It is morally reprehensible to try and protect the position of UK
citizens living elsewhere in Europe?
--
Jack
MM
2017-03-02 18:17:01 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Nightjar
Post by harry
There are far more EUSSR citizens in the UK than vice versa.
That is the position of strength.
They will be treated in exactly the way the EUSSR treats UK citizens in the EUSSR.
That is the inducement.
Guarantee EUSSR citizens the unqualified right to remain here and the
inducement is lost.
Saint Theresa May has already made an offer and been refused.
So we know the EUSSR is run by a bunch of arseholes.
(Though we knew that already)
There, is that simple enough for you?
I understand your position perfectly. I simply consider it morally
reprehensible.
It is morally reprehensible to try and protect the position of UK
citizens living elsewhere in Europe?
How do you plan to do that if we're "taking back control" and letting
other nations decide for themselves where their moral compass is
pointing? I thought that's what you and your fellow Brexitards wanted!

MM
Handsome Jack
2017-03-03 09:32:39 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by MM
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Nightjar
Post by harry
There are far more EUSSR citizens in the UK than vice versa.
That is the position of strength.
They will be treated in exactly the way the EUSSR treats UK citizens in the EUSSR.
That is the inducement.
Guarantee EUSSR citizens the unqualified right to remain here and the
inducement is lost.
Saint Theresa May has already made an offer and been refused.
So we know the EUSSR is run by a bunch of arseholes.
(Though we knew that already)
There, is that simple enough for you?
I understand your position perfectly. I simply consider it morally
reprehensible.
It is morally reprehensible to try and protect the position of UK
citizens living elsewhere in Europe?
How do you plan to do that if we're "taking back control" and letting
other nations decide for themselves where their moral compass is
pointing?
By negotiation.
--
Jack
Ian Jackson
2017-03-02 19:26:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Nightjar
Post by harry
There are far more EUSSR citizens in the UK than vice versa.
That is the position of strength.
They will be treated in exactly the way the EUSSR treats UK citizens in the EUSSR.
That is the inducement.
Guarantee EUSSR citizens the unqualified right to remain here and
the inducement is lost.
Saint Theresa May has already made an offer and been refused.
So we know the EUSSR is run by a bunch of arseholes.
(Though we knew that already)
There, is that simple enough for you?
I understand your position perfectly. I simply consider it morally
reprehensible.
It is morally reprehensible to try and protect the position of UK
citizens living elsewhere in Europe?
But if various reports (at least what Paddy Ashdown said on this morning
LBC Nick Ferrari programme, at about 7:10am) are to believed, TM is
doing exactly the opposite of what UK ex-pats actually say they want.
However, I suppose Momma Knows Best.
--
Ian
Sid
2017-03-02 19:42:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Nightjar
Post by harry
There are far more EUSSR citizens in the UK than vice versa.
That is the position of strength.
They will be treated in exactly the way the EUSSR treats UK citizens in the EUSSR.
That is the inducement.
Guarantee EUSSR citizens the unqualified right to remain here and the
inducement is lost.
Saint Theresa May has already made an offer and been refused.
So we know the EUSSR is run by a bunch of arseholes.
(Though we knew that already)
There, is that simple enough for you?
I understand your position perfectly. I simply consider it morally
reprehensible.
It is morally reprehensible to try and protect the position of UK citizens
living elsewhere in Europe?
But if various reports (at least what Paddy Ashdown said on this morning
LBC Nick Ferrari programme, at about 7:10am) are to believed, TM is
doing exactly the opposite of what UK ex-pats actually say they want.
However, I suppose Momma Knows Best.

Teresa May is The PM

Why do You and the other remoaners keep thinking that old and wrinkly dead
heads
have any significant that matters to the UK.

They have had there day.

--
Ian Jackson
2017-03-02 19:51:29 UTC
Reply
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In message <o99sia$j30$***@news.albasani.net>, Sid <***@sidworx.com>
writes
Post by Sid
Teresa May is The PM
At least that's one thing you have right.
Post by Sid
Why do You and the other remoaners keep thinking that old and wrinkly
dead heads
have any significant that matters to the UK.
'Old and wrinkly dead heads'? That's no way to talk about our PM and her
cronies!
Post by Sid
They have had there day.
Every dog has her day.
--
Ian
Sid
2017-03-02 20:13:54 UTC
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"Ian Jackson" wrote in message news:pQBWDqDBfHuYFw+***@g3ohx.co.uk...

In message <o99sia$j30$***@news.albasani.net>, Sid <***@sidworx.com>
writes
Post by Sid
Teresa May is The PM
At least that's one thing you have right.
Post by Sid
Why do You and the other remoaners keep thinking that old and wrinkly dead
heads
have any significant that matters to the UK.
'Old and wrinkly dead heads'? That's no way to talk about our PM and her
cronies!
Post by Sid
They have had there day.
Every dog has her day.
Well something for the old scrap book old bean

Teresa May is the PM and will go down in History as the PM who put the Great
Back into Great Britain.

Tony Bliar will go down as the man with blood on his hands.

David Cameron will go down as a arrogant prick who got what he deserved.

Corbyn and The Current line-up(check TV times for any changes) will go down
as man who kept Labour where they belong on the Opposition chairs.

Nigel Farage will do down as the man who changed the face of UK politics and
will
always be remembered.

And you Mr sad remoaner radio ham From Seers Green will be in third place of
bitching old
remoaner losers. Clayton in second place and MM in first place.


Don't forget those magic words that Dimbleby said
Britain votes out.

Have a nice day

--


--
MM
2017-03-03 08:01:07 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
writes
Post by Sid
Teresa May is The PM
At least that's one thing you have right.
Post by Sid
Why do You and the other remoaners keep thinking that old and wrinkly dead
heads
have any significant that matters to the UK.
'Old and wrinkly dead heads'? That's no way to talk about our PM and her
cronies!
Post by Sid
They have had there day.
Every dog has her day.
Well something for the old scrap book old bean
Teresa May is the PM and will go down in History as the PM who put the Great
Back into Great Britain.
Tony Bliar will go down as the man with blood on his hands.
David Cameron will go down as a arrogant prick who got what he deserved.
Corbyn and The Current line-up(check TV times for any changes) will go down
as man who kept Labour where they belong on the Opposition chairs.
Nigel Farage will do down as the man who changed the face of UK politics and
will
always be remembered.
And you Mr sad remoaner radio ham From Seers Green will be in third place of
bitching old
remoaner losers. Clayton in second place and MM in first place.
Don't forget those magic words that Dimbleby said
Britain votes out.
Have a nice day
And now wipe your monitor before continuing.

MM
Yellow
2017-03-02 20:30:27 UTC
Reply
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Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Nightjar
Post by harry
There are far more EUSSR citizens in the UK than vice versa.
That is the position of strength.
They will be treated in exactly the way the EUSSR treats UK citizens in the EUSSR.
That is the inducement.
Guarantee EUSSR citizens the unqualified right to remain here and
the inducement is lost.
Saint Theresa May has already made an offer and been refused.
So we know the EUSSR is run by a bunch of arseholes.
(Though we knew that already)
There, is that simple enough for you?
I understand your position perfectly. I simply consider it morally
reprehensible.
It is morally reprehensible to try and protect the position of UK
citizens living elsewhere in Europe?
But if various reports (at least what Paddy Ashdown said on this morning
LBC Nick Ferrari programme, at about 7:10am) are to believed, TM is
doing exactly the opposite of what UK ex-pats actually say they want.
However, I suppose Momma Knows Best.
Care to share what Paddy Ashdown said? - or is it a secret?
Ian Jackson
2017-03-02 22:51:27 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by Ian Jackson
But if various reports (at least what Paddy Ashdown said on this morning
LBC Nick Ferrari programme, at about 7:10am) are to believed, TM is
doing exactly the opposite of what UK ex-pats actually say they want.
However, I suppose Momma Knows Best.
Care to share what Paddy Ashdown said? - or is it a secret?
He said that several groups representing UK ex-pats in Europe had
contacted him to say (without exception) that what TM was doing was
definitely not in their best interests (or words to that effect). It
will probably be online on the LBC website.
--
Ian
Yellow
2017-03-02 23:12:54 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
Post by Ian Jackson
But if various reports (at least what Paddy Ashdown said on this morning
LBC Nick Ferrari programme, at about 7:10am) are to believed, TM is
doing exactly the opposite of what UK ex-pats actually say they want.
However, I suppose Momma Knows Best.
Care to share what Paddy Ashdown said? - or is it a secret?
He said that several groups representing UK ex-pats in Europe had
contacted him to say (without exception) that what TM was doing was
definitely not in their best interests (or words to that effect).
But she isn't doing anything apart from trying to get a bill through to
trigger A50.
Post by Ian Jackson
It
will probably be online on the LBC website.
Indeed, and when you have listened to it you can let us all know what
was said. :-p
Ian Jackson
2017-03-02 23:26:00 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
Post by Ian Jackson
But if various reports (at least what Paddy Ashdown said on this morning
LBC Nick Ferrari programme, at about 7:10am) are to believed, TM is
doing exactly the opposite of what UK ex-pats actually say they want.
However, I suppose Momma Knows Best.
Care to share what Paddy Ashdown said? - or is it a secret?
He said that several groups representing UK ex-pats in Europe had
contacted him to say (without exception) that what TM was doing was
definitely not in their best interests (or words to that effect).
But she isn't doing anything apart from trying to get a bill through to
trigger A50.
Exactly! But what she ISN'T doing is assuring people from the EU
presently living in the UK that they will have their EU rights (yes -
rights, not privileges) preserved despite the consequences of her
triggering A50.
Post by Yellow
Post by Ian Jackson
It
will probably be online on the LBC website.
Indeed, and when you have listened to it you can let us all know what
was said. :-p
I've already given you the gist of it. To be honest, I find LBC's
version of 'Listen Again' far from easy to use (if it works at all) -
but if you're at all interested, I'm sure you'll manage better than I
do.
--
Ian
Yellow
2017-03-03 00:34:39 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
Post by Ian Jackson
But if various reports (at least what Paddy Ashdown said on this morning
LBC Nick Ferrari programme, at about 7:10am) are to believed, TM is
doing exactly the opposite of what UK ex-pats actually say they want.
However, I suppose Momma Knows Best.
Care to share what Paddy Ashdown said? - or is it a secret?
He said that several groups representing UK ex-pats in Europe had
contacted him to say (without exception) that what TM was doing was
definitely not in their best interests (or words to that effect).
But she isn't doing anything apart from trying to get a bill through to
trigger A50.
Exactly!
So that is it? Paddy Ashdown is going on the radio to whine that some
ex-pats are pissed off that the UK electorate voted to leave the EU?

Is this supposed to be new news?
Post by Ian Jackson
But what she ISN'T doing is assuring people from the EU
presently living in the UK that they will have their EU rights (yes -
rights, not privileges) preserved despite the consequences of her
triggering A50.
What difference does it make to ex-pats what arrangements are decided
upon for EU citizens living in the UK?
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Yellow
Post by Ian Jackson
It
will probably be online on the LBC website.
Indeed, and when you have listened to it you can let us all know what
was said. :-p
I've already given you the gist of it. To be honest, I find LBC's
version of 'Listen Again' far from easy to use (if it works at all) -
but if you're at all interested, I'm sure you'll manage better than I
do.
Ophelia
2017-03-02 12:08:32 UTC
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Post by Nightjar
Post by harry
Post by Nightjar
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured.
Strictly speaking, they are reviving an amendment that the Commons
failed to get accepted. The importance of which is that we don't start
to lose people we need because they are uncertain about their future in
the UK.
Post by Ophelia
Don't they care about our
people
on the continent?
I am sure they do, but they have no power to control what the EU chooses
to do.
Yes we have.
Tit for tat.
If we let them stay here regardless, we will have no power.
Are you so thick you can't see this?
As I said in the bit you chose to snip, I thought that the Leave claim
was that we are more important to the EU than they are to us, so any
negotiations would be from a position of strength. That claim hardly
stands up if we have to hold EU citizens to ransom to get what we want.
In any case, any claims that we could expel them are naive at best. We
simply don't have enough unemployed to replace all the EU citizens
working in the UK, even if they were suitable for / willing to do / in
the right place for the jobs. Much better to turn the inescapable fact
that they are going to have to stay into the moral high ground and say
we are going to guarantee their status, now, what are you going to do
about UK citizens working in the EU?
--
--
Colin Bignell
You really are brain dead.
There are far more EUSSR citizens in the UK than vice versa.
That is the position of strength.
They will be treated in exactly the way the EUSSR treats UK citizens in the
EUSSR.
That is the inducement.

Guarantee EUSSR citizens the unqualified right to remain here and the
inducement is lost.

Saint Theresa May has already made an offer and been refused.
So we know the EUSSR is run by a bunch of arseholes.
(Though we knew that already)

There, is that simple enough for you?

===

Well said!
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk
pamela
2017-03-02 12:10:35 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by harry
Post by Nightjar
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people
in UK should have their rights to stay here be secured.
Strictly speaking, they are reviving an amendment that the
Commons failed to get accepted. The importance of which is that
we don't start to lose people we need because they are
uncertain about their future in the UK.
Post by Ophelia
Don't they care about our
people on the continent?
I am sure they do, but they have no power to control what the
EU chooses to do.
Yes we have.
Tit for tat.
If we let them stay here regardless, we will have no power.
Are you so thick you can't see this?
Simpletons like Donald Trump think no further than "tit for tat"
but you need to be more sophisticated than that to get the best
out.
R. Mark Clayton
2017-03-01 13:11:49 UTC
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Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
So the UK should behave dishonourably and revoke the residence rights of people already here perfectly legally?

Still I suppose the Leave vote did reflect a desire of its supporters for a bit of ethnic cleansing...
Post by Ophelia
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk
tim...
2017-03-01 16:05:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
So the UK should behave dishonourably and revoke the residence rights of
people already here perfectly legally?
but they won't be here "perfectly legally" when we have left the EU, will
they? (unless we agree otherwise)

tim
Ophelia
2017-03-01 16:26:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
So the UK should behave dishonourably and revoke the residence rights of
people already here perfectly legally?
but they won't be here "perfectly legally" when we have left the EU, will
they? (unless we agree otherwise)

tim

====

There are plenty of EU people here, who are crying on the news about how
they are afraid they might get sent back!

Why do we not have UK folk in EU crying on the radio because THEY might be
sent home.

Something going on here!
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk
harry
2017-03-01 17:14:16 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
So the UK should behave dishonourably and revoke the residence rights of
people already here perfectly legally?
but they won't be here "perfectly legally" when we have left the EU, will
they? (unless we agree otherwise)
tim
====
There are plenty of EU people here, who are crying on the news about how
they are afraid they might get sent back!
Why do we not have UK folk in EU crying on the radio because THEY might be
sent home.
Something going on here!
The usual socialist bullshit.
That's what's going on.
tim...
2017-03-01 18:33:17 UTC
Reply
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Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
So the UK should behave dishonourably and revoke the residence rights of
people already here perfectly legally?
but they won't be here "perfectly legally" when we have left the EU, will
they? (unless we agree otherwise)
tim
====
There are plenty of EU people here, who are crying on the news about how
they are afraid they might get sent back!
Why do we not have UK folk in EU crying on the radio because THEY might be
sent home.
there was a report in the newspaper a few weeks ago about exactly that

and they were blaming the Tories for their being in this unknown position,
like there was some way that the Tories could give them the rights to stay
(not because the Tories were implementing Brexit)

But it's not reported much here because it requires additional work to find
the people to interview - Journalists are lazy.

tim
R. Mark Clayton
2017-03-01 18:40:06 UTC
Reply
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Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
So the UK should behave dishonourably and revoke the residence rights of
people already here perfectly legally?
but they won't be here "perfectly legally" when we have left the EU, will
they? (unless we agree otherwise)
tim
====
There are plenty of EU people here, who are crying on the news about how
they are afraid they might get sent back!
Why do we not have UK folk in EU crying on the radio because THEY might be
sent home.
Something going on here!
Indeed - you appear to have missed several broadcasts with British ex pat's in the EU complaining about exactly that or even applying for citizenship in other countries.

They will just have to hope that the Germans and Spanish aren't as racist as Leavers or as they used to be...
Post by tim...
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk
R. Mark Clayton
2017-03-01 18:37:40 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
So the UK should behave dishonourably and revoke the residence rights of
people already here perfectly legally?
============
Post by tim...
but they won't be here "perfectly legally" when we have left the EU, will
they? (unless we agree otherwise)
tim
Did you miss the bit "ALREADY HERE"?

I presume you are in favour of deporting the untermesche by retrospectively making them illegal after all you did erase the bit about Leavers supporting ethnic cleansing. Presumably it is a little embarrassing to admit to prejudice...
tim...
2017-03-01 18:43:50 UTC
Reply
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Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
So the UK should behave dishonourably and revoke the residence rights of
people already here perfectly legally?
============
Post by tim...
but they won't be here "perfectly legally" when we have left the EU, will
they? (unless we agree otherwise)
tim
Did you miss the bit "ALREADY HERE"?
no

unless the fact that they are already her qualifies them to apply for
citizenship, once we have left the EU they will no longer be legally here
(for the purposes of permanent residence)
Post by R. Mark Clayton
I presume you are in favour of deporting
I made no such claim

merely noted that their legal status will change once we leave

It's within the gift of the rEU to change that, and so far, they are
refusing to do so. Why should we act unilaterally to our disadvantage -
would you do so if you were negotiating a life or death deal with someone?

tim
harry
2017-03-01 17:13:07 UTC
Reply
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Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
So the UK should behave dishonourably and revoke the residence rights of people already here perfectly legally?
We will behave exactly as honourably as they do in the EUSSR.
Vidcapper
2017-03-03 07:31:37 UTC
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Post by harry
Post by R. Mark Clayton
So the UK should behave dishonourably and revoke the residence rights of people already here perfectly legally?
We will behave exactly as honourably as they do in the EUSSR.
This is all nonsense anyway - Remoaners are the *only* people claiming
that Brexit will lead to mass 'ethnic cleansing' of EU citizens from
Britain.
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
s***@gmail.com
2017-03-02 21:59:29 UTC
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Post by R. Mark Clayton
So the UK should behave dishonourably and revoke the residence rights of people already here perfectly legally?
1. there is no such of thing as "honor" (or honour) in politics
2. there is still plenty of EU nationals who do not have Permanent Residency (ILR). they could be a bargain card.

simon
Judith
2017-03-01 15:46:46 UTC
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Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
It is of course the right thing to do: irrespective of what happens to UK
citizens working in the EU.

I suppose you would rather play politics and other games with people's lives.

Don't forget it is people like you who have turned things to rat-shit.
James Harris
2017-03-01 16:35:24 UTC
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Post by Judith
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
It is of course the right thing to do: irrespective of what happens to UK
citizens working in the EU.
Why do you put the security of EU expats in the UK above that of British
people abroad?

Why not work to assure the rights of both?
--
James Harris
harry
2017-03-01 17:15:52 UTC
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Post by James Harris
Post by Judith
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
It is of course the right thing to do: irrespective of what happens to UK
citizens working in the EU.
Why do you put the security of EU expats in the UK above that of British
people abroad?
Why not work to assure the rights of both?
Because they are brain dead socialists.
May has already offered a deal on this and been turned down.
R. Mark Clayton
2017-03-01 18:41:15 UTC
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Post by James Harris
Post by Judith
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
It is of course the right thing to do: irrespective of what happens to UK
citizens working in the EU.
Why do you put the security of EU expats in the UK above that of British
people abroad?
Why not work to assure the rights of both?
When I was a little kid my mum used to tell me that "two wrongs don't make a right".
Post by James Harris
--
James Harris
Handsome Jack
2017-03-01 19:12:46 UTC
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Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by James Harris
Why do you put the security of EU expats in the UK above that of British
people abroad?
Why not work to assure the rights of both?
When I was a little kid my mum used to tell me that "two wrongs don't make a right".
It's your privilege to live by infantile maxims for your own purposes,
but please don't try to advise adults who have to deal with real world
situations. Things get more complex after the age of ten.
--
Jack
R. Mark Clayton
2017-03-02 10:21:37 UTC
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Post by Handsome Jack
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by James Harris
Why do you put the security of EU expats in the UK above that of British
people abroad?
Why not work to assure the rights of both?
When I was a little kid my mum used to tell me that "two wrongs don't make a right".
It's your privilege to live by infantile maxims for your own purposes,
but please don't try to advise adults who have to deal with real world
situations. Things get more complex after the age of ten.
--
Jack
It is one thing for the UK to give notice under a treaty as it intends to do using a50.

It is quite another to abrogate actions already taken under it while it was in force. In particular the UK has always lead the world in honouring treaties and retrospectively annulling the rights of people already here would of course be disgraceful and have a seriously detrimental effect on the lives of hundreds of thousands.

Still Brexit believers think that morality does not count in this case and the UK should simply "resettle" all the untermensche back in the east.
Yellow
2017-03-02 15:09:30 UTC
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Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by James Harris
Why do you put the security of EU expats in the UK above that of British
people abroad?
Why not work to assure the rights of both?
When I was a little kid my mum used to tell me that "two wrongs don't make a right".
It's your privilege to live by infantile maxims for your own purposes,
but please don't try to advise adults who have to deal with real world
situations. Things get more complex after the age of ten.
--
Jack
It is one thing for the UK to give notice under a treaty as it intends to do using a50.
It is quite another to abrogate actions already taken under it while it was in force. In particular the UK has always lead the world in honouring treaties and retrospectively annulling the rights of people already here would of course be disgraceful and have a seriously detrimental effect on the lives of hundreds of thousands.
Do you think people from the EU who are in the UK today are going to be
asked to leave?
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Still Brexit believers think that morality does not count in this case and the UK should simply "resettle" all the untermensche back in the east.
Do you think people from the UK who are in the EU today are going to be
asked to leave?
tim...
2017-03-02 15:16:32 UTC
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Post by Yellow
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by James Harris
Why do you put the security of EU expats in the UK above that of British
people abroad?
Why not work to assure the rights of both?
When I was a little kid my mum used to tell me that "two wrongs don't
make a right".
It's your privilege to live by infantile maxims for your own purposes,
but please don't try to advise adults who have to deal with real world
situations. Things get more complex after the age of ten.
--
Jack
It is one thing for the UK to give notice under a treaty as it intends to do using a50.
It is quite another to abrogate actions already taken under it while it
was in force. In particular the UK has always lead the world in
honouring treaties and retrospectively annulling the rights of people
already here would of course be disgraceful and have a seriously
detrimental effect on the lives of hundreds of thousands.
Do you think people from the EU who are in the UK today are going to be
asked to leave?
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Still Brexit believers think that morality does not count in this case
and the UK should simply "resettle" all the untermensche back in the
east.
Do you think people from the UK who are in the EU today are going to be
asked to leave?
No

But they will almost certainly lose their rights to local health cover
unless reciprocal arrangements are made.

When you consider that a large percentage of Brits abroad are retirees
(unlike the EU citizens in the UK), that is a critical problem for them

tim
MM
2017-03-02 18:20:07 UTC
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Post by tim...
But they will almost certainly lose their rights to local health cover
unless reciprocal arrangements are made.
When you consider that a large percentage of Brits abroad are retirees
(unlike the EU citizens in the UK), that is a critical problem for them
Indeed. And those Brits will be returning to clog up the NHS, pissing
you off even more! But it's okay. You just need to pay more tax.
Budget next week!

MM
Handsome Jack
2017-03-02 17:27:30 UTC
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Post by R. Mark Clayton
It is one thing for the UK to give notice under a treaty as it intends to do using a50.
It is quite another to abrogate actions already taken under it while it
was in force.
In particular the UK has always lead the world in honouring treaties
and retrospectively annulling the rights of people already here would
of course be disgraceful
and have a seriously detrimental effect on the lives of hundreds of
thousands.
Still Brexit believers think that morality does not count in this case
and the UK should simply "resettle" all the untermensche back in the
east.
Untermenschen, cattle trucks, ethnic cleansing, mass deportations ... is
there any straw man you won't sink to?
--
Jack
Nightjar
2017-03-01 19:56:40 UTC
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Post by James Harris
Post by Judith
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
It is of course the right thing to do: irrespective of what happens to UK
citizens working in the EU.
Why do you put the security of EU expats in the UK above that of British
people abroad?
Why not work to assure the rights of both?
Assuring the rights of EU workers in the UK does not preclude working
towards assuring the rights of UK workers in the EU. However, the latter
cannot be obtained by writing it into UK law, while the first can.
--
--

Colin Bignell
James Harris
2017-03-01 20:39:58 UTC
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Post by Nightjar
Post by James Harris
Post by Judith
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
It is of course the right thing to do: irrespective of what happens to UK
citizens working in the EU.
Why do you put the security of EU expats in the UK above that of British
people abroad?
Why not work to assure the rights of both?
Assuring the rights of EU workers in the UK does not preclude working
towards assuring the rights of UK workers in the EU. However, the latter
cannot be obtained by writing it into UK law, while the first can.
Agreed, though I was hoping to hear what Judith's proposal was, given
that she made the suggestion.

When you say "working towards" what do you have in mind?
--
James Harris
harry
2017-03-01 17:17:23 UTC
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Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
May has already offers the EUSSR a deal and been turned down.
So, something is afoot.
Ophelia
2017-03-01 17:41:21 UTC
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Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
May has already offers the EUSSR a deal and been turned down.
So, something is afoot.

====

Yes she did. Maybe Juncker has been in touch with our 'Lords' ....
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk
Yellow
2017-03-01 22:33:38 UTC
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In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@gmail.com
says...
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
I have just read through all the comments in this thread and it seems to
me that it is the EU who are holding the EU citizens in the UK hostage,
as bargaining chips.

All the EU has to do is state that Brits can stay where they are at the
moment A50 is triggered and the UK will say at the EU folk here can
stay.

But for some reason, it won't.
MM
2017-03-02 10:11:53 UTC
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Post by Yellow
says...
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
I have just read through all the comments in this thread and it seems to
me that it is the EU who are holding the EU citizens in the UK hostage,
as bargaining chips.
All the EU has to do is state that Brits can stay where they are at the
moment A50 is triggered and the UK will say at the EU folk here can
stay.
But for some reason, it won't.
Have you STILL not understood what is meant by "no negotiation before
notification"?

The EU has still not received ~any~ *formal* notification of our
desire to leave it. As far as the EU is concerned, anything might
happen here in the UK such that a sudden crisis postpones Brexit or
even kicks it so far into the long grass as to become forgotten
history that never actually happened.

MM
Yellow
2017-03-02 15:30:34 UTC
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Post by MM
Post by Yellow
All the EU has to do is state that Brits can stay where they are at the
moment A50 is triggered and the UK will say at the EU folk here can
stay.
But for some reason, it won't.
Have you STILL not understood what is meant by "no negotiation before
notification"?
So you think the position of UK citizens in the EU, and the position of
EU citizens here, should be negotiated?

Harsh!
MM
2017-03-02 18:27:23 UTC
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Post by Yellow
Post by MM
Post by Yellow
All the EU has to do is state that Brits can stay where they are at the
moment A50 is triggered and the UK will say at the EU folk here can
stay.
But for some reason, it won't.
Have you STILL not understood what is meant by "no negotiation before
notification"?
So you think the position of UK citizens in the EU, and the position of
EU citizens here, should be negotiated?
That's exactly what Theresa May wants to do!
Post by Yellow
Harsh!
Indeed! The Nasty Party in all its glora at work.

MM
Yellow
2017-03-02 19:20:12 UTC
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Post by MM
Post by Yellow
Post by MM
Post by Yellow
All the EU has to do is state that Brits can stay where they are at the
moment A50 is triggered and the UK will say at the EU folk here can
stay.
But for some reason, it won't.
Have you STILL not understood what is meant by "no negotiation before
notification"?
So you think the position of UK citizens in the EU, and the position of
EU citizens here, should be negotiated?
That's exactly what Theresa May wants to do!
No she doesn't.
Vidcapper
2017-03-03 07:34:56 UTC
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Post by MM
Post by Yellow
So you think the position of UK citizens in the EU, and the position of
EU citizens here, should be negotiated?
That's exactly what Theresa May wants to do!
Rubbish - there's no point in showing your hand before all cards (or in
the case any cards) are dealt!
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
Ian Jackson
2017-03-03 08:10:32 UTC
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Post by Vidcapper
Post by MM
Post by Yellow
So you think the position of UK citizens in the EU, and the position of
EU citizens here, should be negotiated?
That's exactly what Theresa May wants to do!
Rubbish - there's no point in showing your hand before all cards (or in
the case any cards) are dealt!
Brexit is not a game - especially not a card game. It could have serious
effects on people's lives and on the nation's economy. So far, there is
little evidence that it will be beneficial. The UK not being
substantially honest and open with the EU (a bunch of rogues though they
may be!) is unlikely to get us the best deal as we make our departure.
--
Ian
Nick
2017-03-03 08:44:15 UTC
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Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Vidcapper
Post by MM
Post by Yellow
So you think the position of UK citizens in the EU, and the position of
EU citizens here, should be negotiated?
That's exactly what Theresa May wants to do!
Rubbish - there's no point in showing your hand before all cards (or
in the case any cards) are dealt!
Brexit is not a game - especially not a card game.
It is a game.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory>
Post by Ian Jackson
It could have serious
effects on people's lives and on the nation's economy. So far, there is
little evidence that it will be beneficial.
It is always hard to see the future. I strongly support remain but I
cannot be sure which strategy is best. Particularly in the long run.
Post by Ian Jackson
The UK not being
substantially honest and open with the EU (a bunch of rogues though they
may be!) is unlikely to get us the best deal as we make our departure.
In most negotiations, information is an asset. Being unilaterally open
weakens negotiations.

The total negotiations are not a zero sum game but it is clear that some
specific aspects of the negotiations will be zero sum.
Handsome Jack
2017-03-02 16:56:24 UTC
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Post by MM
Post by Yellow
says...
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
I have just read through all the comments in this thread and it seems to
me that it is the EU who are holding the EU citizens in the UK hostage,
as bargaining chips.
All the EU has to do is state that Brits can stay where they are at the
moment A50 is triggered and the UK will say at the EU folk here can
stay.
But for some reason, it won't.
Have you STILL not understood what is meant by "no negotiation before
notification"?
If you believe that, why are you expecting the UK to make concessions
before notification?
Post by MM
The EU has still not received ~any~ *formal* notification of our
desire to leave it. As far as the EU is concerned, anything might
happen here in the UK such that a sudden crisis postpones Brexit or
even kicks it so far into the long grass as to become forgotten
history that never actually happened.
There is nothing to stop it committing itself to grant ILR to UK
citizens living elsewhere in the EU *if we leave*.
--
Jack
MM
2017-03-02 18:30:56 UTC
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Post by Handsome Jack
Post by MM
Post by Yellow
says...
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
I have just read through all the comments in this thread and it seems to
me that it is the EU who are holding the EU citizens in the UK hostage,
as bargaining chips.
All the EU has to do is state that Brits can stay where they are at the
moment A50 is triggered and the UK will say at the EU folk here can
stay.
But for some reason, it won't.
Have you STILL not understood what is meant by "no negotiation before
notification"?
If you believe that, why are you expecting the UK to make concessions
before notification?
Because it's morally the right thing to do. If the rest of the EU
decides to punish Britain/Britons abroad by denying them permanent
residence post-Brexit, they are only asserting their own sovereign
democracy -- which is what I believed Brexiters wanted.

But we don't need to stoop that low, you see. (Well, maybe you do if
you see these lost souls as bargaining chips to do deals with.)
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by MM
The EU has still not received ~any~ *formal* notification of our
desire to leave it. As far as the EU is concerned, anything might
happen here in the UK such that a sudden crisis postpones Brexit or
even kicks it so far into the long grass as to become forgotten
history that never actually happened.
There is nothing to stop it committing itself to grant ILR to UK
citizens living elsewhere in the EU *if we leave*.
That's entirely correct. So what are you whingeing about?

MM
Yellow
2017-03-02 19:03:23 UTC
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Post by MM
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by MM
Post by Yellow
All the EU has to do is state that Brits can stay where they are at the
moment A50 is triggered and the UK will say at the EU folk here can
stay.
But for some reason, it won't.
Have you STILL not understood what is meant by "no negotiation before
notification"?
If you believe that, why are you expecting the UK to make concessions
before notification?
Because it's morally the right thing to do.
Then your morality gauge is off.
Post by MM
If the rest of the EU
decides to punish Britain/Britons abroad by denying them permanent
residence post-Brexit, they are only asserting their own sovereign
democracy -- which is what I believed Brexiters wanted.
LOL! Just when you didn't think there were any claims left to make up,
MM invents a one.
Ophelia
2017-03-02 12:04:27 UTC
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"Yellow" wrote in message news:***@News.Individual.NET...

In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@gmail.com
says...
Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
I have just read through all the comments in this thread and it seems to
me that it is the EU who are holding the EU citizens in the UK hostage,
as bargaining chips.

All the EU has to do is state that Brits can stay where they are at the
moment A50 is triggered and the UK will say at the EU folk here can
stay.

But for some reason, it won't.

====

I know:( It is not for the want of May trying. They simply refuse to
discuss it until after A50:(

I
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk
pensive hamster
2017-03-02 11:17:09 UTC
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Post by Ophelia
I hear the lords are adding an amendment that all EU people in UK should
have their rights to stay here be secured. Don't they care about our people
on the continent?
If May has to follow that she has no clout to keep our own folk safe
It is hard to believe the stupidity of 'lords'!
Shouldn't you have titled this thread "The Lords' amendment",
rather than "The Lord's ammendment"?

Otherwise you might appear to be equating the House of Lords
with the Almighty (as in "The Lord's Prayer"), which I think, even
for a staunch traditionalist such as yourself, could be considered
a slight exageration of their true status.
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