Discussion:
What right do Royal Mail have to hold my property to ransom?
(too old to reply)
Gareth
2018-02-09 20:55:17 UTC
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I received a card through the door yesterday from Royal Mail saying that
they could not deliver an item because there was a fee to pay.

When I went to collect the item it was a small letter with a first class
stamp on it. The woman behind the counter kindly demonstrated that it
fitted through the small letter slot on the test board and offered no
justification for the charge. I paid the charge because it was only
£1.50 but I now wonder what would have happened if I just took the item
and walked out? Obviously they know where I live but would I have
committed any offence?

They couldn't really accuse me theft as the item clearly belongs to me
and since they haven't delivered the item (I collected it from the
depot) I don't really see that they could claim that I owed then
anything for the service.

Any thoughts?
Woolly Jumper
2018-02-09 21:54:58 UTC
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Post by Gareth
I received a card through the door yesterday from Royal Mail saying that
they could not deliver an item because there was a fee to pay.
When I went to collect the item it was a small letter with a first class
stamp on it.  The woman behind the counter kindly demonstrated that it
fitted through the small letter slot on the test board and offered no
justification for the charge.  I paid the charge because it was only
£1.50 but I now wonder what would have happened if I just took the item
and walked out?  Obviously they know where I live but would I have
committed any offence?
They couldn't really accuse me theft as the item clearly belongs to me
and since they haven't delivered the item (I collected it from the
depot) I don't really see that they could claim that I owed then
anything for the service.
Any thoughts?
Maybe the RM would've wanted storage charge?

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tim...
2018-02-10 09:50:15 UTC
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Post by Gareth
I received a card through the door yesterday from Royal Mail saying that
they could not deliver an item because there was a fee to pay.
When I went to collect the item it was a small letter with a first class
stamp on it. The woman behind the counter kindly demonstrated that it
fitted through the small letter slot on the test board and offered no
justification for the charge.
so why did you not ask for the charge to be justified?

and complain to the manger when she failed to do so

tim
Gareth
2018-02-10 10:12:26 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by Gareth
I received a card through the door yesterday from Royal Mail saying
that they could not deliver an item because there was a fee to pay.
When I went to collect the item it was a small letter with a first
class stamp on it.  The woman behind the counter kindly demonstrated
that it fitted through the small letter slot on the test board and
offered no justification for the charge.
so why did you not ask for the charge to be justified?
I did.
Post by tim...
and complain to the manger when she failed to do so
She said I should pay the charge then phone customer services and gave
me a card with the number. By this time there was a queue of people
behind me and I didn't want to inconvenience them too much.

I haven't phoned as the small print says there is a charge for doing so.
I have made a complaint via the Royal Mail website.
Post by tim...
tim
Thanks for your reply.
tim...
2018-02-10 12:39:31 UTC
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Post by Gareth
Post by tim...
Post by Gareth
I received a card through the door yesterday from Royal Mail saying that
they could not deliver an item because there was a fee to pay.
When I went to collect the item it was a small letter with a first class
stamp on it. The woman behind the counter kindly demonstrated that it
fitted through the small letter slot on the test board and offered no
justification for the charge.
so why did you not ask for the charge to be justified?
I did.
Post by tim...
and complain to the manger when she failed to do so
She said I should pay the charge
well I would have asked to see the manager there and then

and I that wasn't forthcoming I would have got out my phone and (pretended)
to look up the number for local trading standards
Post by Gareth
then phone customer services and gave
How's that going to work?

they aren't going to have the physical proof in front of them that the
letter fits through the slot.

they will just have to take your word for it, and if they don't, you are
fucked.
Post by Gareth
me a card with the number. By this time there was a queue of people
behind me and I didn't want to inconvenience them too much.
tough on them.

I have been the person at the back of the queue when someone else is taking
too long

shit happens.

tim
Gareth
2018-02-10 14:58:01 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by Gareth
Post by tim...
Post by Gareth
I received a card through the door yesterday from Royal Mail saying
that they could not deliver an item because there was a fee to pay.
When I went to collect the item it was a small letter with a first
class stamp on it.  The woman behind the counter kindly demonstrated
that it fitted through the small letter slot on the test board and
offered no justification for the charge.
so why did you not ask for the charge to be justified?
I did.
Post by tim...
and complain to the manger when she failed to do so
She said I should pay the charge
well I would have asked to see the manager there and then
and I that wasn't forthcoming I would have got out my phone and
(pretended) to look up the number for local trading standards
I will try to remember that.
Post by tim...
Post by Gareth
then phone customer services and gave
How's that going to work?
I don't expect it is. If I make enough fuss I might get a free book of
stamps.
Post by tim...
they aren't going to have the physical proof in front of them that the
letter fits through the slot
I took photographs showing the dimensions of the letter
Post by tim...
they will just have to take your word for it, and if they don't, you are
fucked.
I can probably survive losing £1.50
Post by tim...
Post by Gareth
me a card with the number.  By this time there was a queue of people
behind me and I didn't want to inconvenience them too much.
tough on them.
I have been the person at the back of the queue when someone else is
taking too long
shit happens.
It does indeed.
Post by tim...
tim
Thanks for your reply.
BurfordTJustice
2018-02-10 15:20:13 UTC
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How do you know how many thousands of times each day they do that?

Where does all the extra money go?



"Gareth" <***@privacy.net> wrote in message news:***@brightview.co.uk...
: : >
: I can probably survive losing £1.50
:
:
Gareth
2018-02-10 19:16:55 UTC
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Post by BurfordTJustice
How do you know how many thousands of times each day they do that?
Where does all the extra money go?
To Royal Mail shareholders and directors obviously. I would be more
interested in where all the items go when somebody doesn't pay the fee.
I expect a good proportion don't have a return address (100% based on
my sample of 1).
BurfordTJustice
2018-02-11 12:33:50 UTC
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There is no proof of that.



"Gareth" <***@privacy.net> wrote in message news:k_Gdndc-mKC-***@brightview.co.uk...
: On 10/02/2018 15:20, BurfordTJustice wrote:
: > How do you know how many thousands of times each day they do that?
: >
: > Where does all the extra money go?
: >
: To Royal Mail shareholders and directors obviously. I would be more
: interested in where all the items go when somebody doesn't pay the fee.
: I expect a good proportion don't have a return address (100% based on
: my sample of 1).
:
: >
: > "Gareth" <***@privacy.net> wrote in message
: > news:***@brightview.co.uk... : : > : I
: > can probably survive losing £1.50 : :
: >
: >
:
Fredxx
2018-02-10 17:40:48 UTC
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Post by Gareth
Post by tim...
Post by Gareth
Post by tim...
Post by Gareth
I received a card through the door yesterday from Royal Mail saying
that they could not deliver an item because there was a fee to pay.
When I went to collect the item it was a small letter with a first
class stamp on it.  The woman behind the counter kindly
demonstrated that it fitted through the small letter slot on the
test board and offered no justification for the charge.
so why did you not ask for the charge to be justified?
I did.
Post by tim...
and complain to the manger when she failed to do so
She said I should pay the charge
well I would have asked to see the manager there and then
and I that wasn't forthcoming I would have got out my phone and
(pretended) to look up the number for local trading standards
I will try to remember that.
You have a local Trading Standards, and a phone number you can ring?

It wouldn't look very convincing.
pamela
2018-02-11 12:27:20 UTC
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Post by Gareth
I don't expect it is. If I make enough fuss I might get a free
book of stamps.
With the price of stamps being what it is these days, that could be
worth having.
Nightjar
2018-02-10 11:13:07 UTC
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Post by Gareth
I received a card through the door yesterday from Royal Mail saying that
they could not deliver an item because there was a fee to pay.
When I went to collect the item it was a small letter with a first class
stamp on it.  The woman behind the counter kindly demonstrated that it
fitted through the small letter slot on the test board and offered no
justification for the charge.  I paid the charge because it was only
£1.50 but I now wonder what would have happened if I just took the item
and walked out?
It would have been treated as undelivered mail and, if there was a
return address, eventually would have been returned to the sender.
Post by Gareth
Obviously they know where I live but would I have
committed any offence?...
No. They were offering to let you have an item that, for some reason we
do not know, they thought should have had a higher value pre-payment.
You are under no obligation to accept that offer.
--
--

Colin Bignell
Gareth
2018-02-10 14:47:59 UTC
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Post by Nightjar
Post by Gareth
I received a card through the door yesterday from Royal Mail saying
that they could not deliver an item because there was a fee to pay.
When I went to collect the item it was a small letter with a first
class stamp on it.  The woman behind the counter kindly demonstrated
that it fitted through the small letter slot on the test board and
offered no justification for the charge.  I paid the charge because it
was only £1.50 but I now wonder what would have happened if I just
took the item and walked out?
It would have been treated as undelivered mail and, if there was a
return address, eventually would have been returned to the sender.
Post by Gareth
Obviously they know where I live but would I have committed any
offence?...
No. They were offering to let you have an item that, for some reason we
do not know, they thought should have had a higher value pre-payment.
You are under no obligation to accept that offer.
I know I was under no obligation to accept it. My question was; If I
took the item without paying the fee would I have committed an offence?
If so, what offence?
GB
2018-02-10 15:17:23 UTC
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I know I was under no obligation to accept it.  My question was; If I
took the item without paying the fee would I have committed an offence?
If so, what offence?
It's pretty common for a garage to exercise a lien over your car until
you pay their bill. This is similar.

So, really, you could rephrase your question: "Is it an offence to take
something held under a lien?"
Gareth
2018-02-10 18:54:58 UTC
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Post by GB
I know I was under no obligation to accept it.  My question was; If I
took the item without paying the fee would I have committed an
offence? If so, what offence?
It's pretty common for a garage to exercise a lien over your car until
you pay their bill. This is similar.
A good analogy but I would have agreed to the garage's terms and
conditions when I took the car in. I did not enter into any such
agreement with Royal Mail.

In this case Royal Mail are asking me to pay because they claim somebody
else didn't pay even though the letter clearly had the correct stamp on it.

To extend you analogy I think it's more like this:

I took my car to a garage for a service and they refused to give it back
until I paid the money Dodgy Dave owed them (plus handling fees) because
I had bought my car from Dodgy Dave. When asked to show evidence that
Dodgy Dave had not paid they show me an invoice which shows that he had
paid what was due but still refused to give me my car back.
Post by GB
So, really, you could rephrase your question: "Is it an offence to take
something held under a lien?"
well, is it?
Nightjar
2018-02-10 16:41:08 UTC
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On 10-Feb-18 2:47 PM, Gareth wrote:
....
I know I was under no obligation to accept it.  My question was; If I
took the item without paying the fee would I have committed an offence?
If so, what offence?
IME you the item you are picking up stays on the other side of a glass
screen until you have paid the money, or signed the receipt, etc.
However, if you were able to just grab the letter and run, I would guess
that obstructing the business of a universal service provider, contrary
to Section 88 (1) of the Postal Services Act 2000, would probably cover it.
--
--

Colin Bignell
Gareth
2018-02-10 19:06:44 UTC
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Post by Nightjar
....
I know I was under no obligation to accept it.  My question was; If I
took the item without paying the fee would I have committed an
offence? If so, what offence?
IME you the item you are picking up stays on the other side of a glass
screen until you have paid the money, or signed the receipt, etc.
Yes, however in this case the woman was probably more helpful than she
should have been and allowed me to inspect the letter. There was
nothing physically preventing me from simply walking off.
Post by Nightjar
However, if you were able to just grab the letter and run, I would guess
that obstructing the business of a universal service provider, contrary
to Section 88 (1) of the Postal Services Act 2000, would probably cover it.
Lucky I didn't then. However I would argue that I was assisting rather
than obstructing since they said they were unable to deliver it so I
took it from the depot to the delivery address :)

Thanks for your reply.
BurfordTJustice
2018-02-11 12:35:41 UTC
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Then you should have done so instead of being a pussy
and letting the court decide.




"Gareth" <***@privacy.net> wrote in message news:Wb6dnaaQ5Ohc3-***@brightview.co.uk...
: On 10/02/2018 16:41, Nightjar wrote:
: > On 10-Feb-18 2:47 PM, Gareth wrote:
: > ....
: >> I know I was under no obligation to accept it. My question was; If I
: >> took the item without paying the fee would I have committed an
: >> offence? If so, what offence?
: >
: > IME you the item you are picking up stays on the other side of a glass
: > screen until you have paid the money, or signed the receipt, etc.
:
: Yes, however in this case the woman was probably more helpful than she
: should have been and allowed me to inspect the letter. There was
: nothing physically preventing me from simply walking off.
:
: > However, if you were able to just grab the letter and run, I would guess
: > that obstructing the business of a universal service provider, contrary
: > to Section 88 (1) of the Postal Services Act 2000, would probably cover
it.
: >
: Lucky I didn't then. However I would argue that I was assisting rather
: than obstructing since they said they were unable to deliver it so I
: took it from the depot to the delivery address :)
:
: Thanks for your reply.

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