Discussion:
GINA MILLER has backed Sir Alan Sugar's claim that politicians should face ramifications for telling 'lies'
(too old to reply)
MM
2017-08-07 07:41:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
This paragon of truth, this organ of propaganda, the Daily Beobachter,
aka Express, has a story about Gina Miller again. This time it's about
Gina backing up Alan Sugar for his position on Brexiters, namely that

"Lord Sugar has claimed that both the Foreign Secretary and
Environment Secretary should face 'criminal charges' for their
promises leading up to the Brexit vote."

I agree. If a CEO of a company told such porkies to try and win
business, (s)he'd be prosecuted for fraud. And yet these politicians
who lied get away scot free, go on their merry way, and are still
spinning their web of deceit right now.

And what do we get from Bumptious Boris in return? Just hot air,
waffle and an attempt to make light of it. The thing is, Boris can be
serious when he wants to be. But over Brexit he chooses to play the
fool. Perhaps he knows what most Brexiters don't: Brexit will not
actually happen, so it doesn't matter what he says.

Anyway, for those who like a good laugh, here is the article from the
Beobachter mobsters:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/837527/Brexit-news-Gina-Miller-Michael-Gove-Boris-Johnson-latest-Theresa-May-BBC-live

MM

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pullgees
2017-08-07 08:02:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by MM
This paragon of truth, this organ of propaganda, the Daily Beobachter,
aka Express, has a story about Gina Miller again. This time it's about
Gina backing up Alan Sugar for his position on Brexiters, namely that
"Lord Sugar has claimed that both the Foreign Secretary and
Environment Secretary should face 'criminal charges' for their
promises leading up to the Brexit vote."
I agree. If a CEO of a company told such porkies to try and win
business, (s)he'd be prosecuted for fraud. And yet these politicians
who lied get away scot free, go on their merry way, and are still
spinning their web of deceit right now.
And what do we get from Bumptious Boris in return? Just hot air,
waffle and an attempt to make light of it. The thing is, Boris can be
serious when he wants to be. But over Brexit he chooses to play the
fool. Perhaps he knows what most Brexiters don't: Brexit will not
actually happen, so it doesn't matter what he says.
Anyway, for those who like a good laugh, here is the article from the
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/837527/Brexit-news-Gina-Miller-Michael-Gove-Boris-Johnson-latest-Theresa-May-BBC-live
MM
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This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com
The Forth Reich with it's digital news sheet the Europa.eu is more to your liking.
Michael D Mitchell
2017-08-07 08:43:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by MM
This paragon of truth, this organ of propaganda, the Daily Beobachter,
aka Express, has a story about Gina Miller again. This time it's about
Gina backing up Alan Sugar for his position on Brexiters, namely that
"Lord Sugar has claimed that both the Foreign Secretary and
Environment Secretary should face 'criminal charges' for their
promises leading up to the Brexit vote."
I agree. If a CEO of a company told such porkies to try and win
business, (s)he'd be prosecuted for fraud. And yet these politicians
who lied get away scot free, go on their merry way, and are still
spinning their web of deceit right now.
And what do we get from Bumptious Boris in return? Just hot air,
waffle and an attempt to make light of it. The thing is, Boris can be
serious when he wants to be. But over Brexit he chooses to play the
fool. Perhaps he knows what most Brexiters don't: Brexit will not
actually happen, so it doesn't matter what he says.
Anyway, for those who like a good laugh, here is the article from the
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/837527/Brexit-news-Gina-Miller-Michael-Gove-Boris-Johnson-latest-Theresa-May-BBC-live
MM
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com
The Forth Reich with it's digital news sheet the Europa.eu is more to your
liking.

WOW MM posting links to a right wing rag.

What a hypocrite.

--
Dan S. MacAbre
2017-08-07 16:11:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by pullgees
Post by MM
This paragon of truth, this organ of propaganda, the Daily Beobachter,
aka Express, has a story about Gina Miller again. This time it's about
Gina backing up Alan Sugar for his position on Brexiters, namely that
"Lord Sugar has claimed that both the Foreign Secretary and
Environment Secretary should face 'criminal charges' for their
promises leading up to the Brexit vote."
I agree. If a CEO of a company told such porkies to try and win
business, (s)he'd be prosecuted for fraud. And yet these politicians
who lied get away scot free, go on their merry way, and are still
spinning their web of deceit right now.
And what do we get from Bumptious Boris in return? Just hot air,
waffle and an attempt to make light of it. The thing is, Boris can be
serious when he wants to be. But over Brexit he chooses to play the
fool. Perhaps he knows what most Brexiters don't: Brexit will not
actually happen, so it doesn't matter what he says.
Anyway, for those who like a good laugh, here is the article from the
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/837527/Brexit-news-Gina-Miller-Michael-Gove-Boris-Johnson-latest-Theresa-May-BBC-live
MM
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com
The Forth Reich with it's digital news sheet the Europa.eu is more to your liking.
WOW MM posting links to a right wing rag.
What a hypocrite.
One might mischievously suggest that the EU is still the third reich.
Hitler had to sacrifice himself to bring it about.
Ophelia
2017-08-07 12:42:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
This paragon of truth, this organ of propaganda, the f has a story about
Gina Miller again. This time it's about
Gina backing up Alan Sugar for his position on Brexiters, namely that
"Lord Sugar has claimed that both the Foreign Secretary and
Environment Secretary should face 'criminal charges' for their
promises leading up to the Brexit vote."
I agree. If a CEO of a company told such porkies to try and win
business, (s)he'd be prosecuted for fraud. And yet these politicians
who lied get away scot free, go on their merry way, and are still
spinning their web of deceit right now.
And what do we get from Bumptious Boris in return? Just hot air,
waffle and an attempt to make light of it. The thing is, Boris can be
serious when he wants to be. But over Brexit he chooses to play the
fool. Perhaps he knows what most Brexiters don't: Brexit will not
actually happen, so it doesn't matter what he says.
Anyway, for those who like a good laugh, here is the article from the
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/837527/Brexit-news-Gina-Miller-Michael-Gove-Boris-Johnson-latest-Theresa-May-BBC-live
MM
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com
The Forth Reich with it's digital news sheet the Europa.eu is more to your
liking.

==

lol and btw his translation of "Daily Beobachter, aka Express", is rubbish
and it is actually 'Observer' <g> ...

"Volkischer Beobachter: (German: “People's Observer”), daily newspaper
published by the Nazi Party in Germany from the 1920s until the fall of the
Third Reich ..."

Nazi party eh??? I guess we know who are HIS heroes!

LOL
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk
pullgees
2017-08-07 15:24:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by pullgees
This paragon of truth, this organ of propaganda, the f has a story about
Gina Miller again. This time it's about
Gina backing up Alan Sugar for his position on Brexiters, namely that
"Lord Sugar has claimed that both the Foreign Secretary and
Environment Secretary should face 'criminal charges' for their
promises leading up to the Brexit vote."
I agree. If a CEO of a company told such porkies to try and win
business, (s)he'd be prosecuted for fraud. And yet these politicians
who lied get away scot free, go on their merry way, and are still
spinning their web of deceit right now.
And what do we get from Bumptious Boris in return? Just hot air,
waffle and an attempt to make light of it. The thing is, Boris can be
serious when he wants to be. But over Brexit he chooses to play the
fool. Perhaps he knows what most Brexiters don't: Brexit will not
actually happen, so it doesn't matter what he says.
Anyway, for those who like a good laugh, here is the article from the
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/837527/Brexit-news-Gina-Miller-Michael-Gove-Boris-Johnson-latest-Theresa-May-BBC-live
MM
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com
The Forth Reich with it's digital news sheet the Europa.eu is more to your liking.
==
lol and btw his translation of "Daily Beobachter, aka Express", is rubbish
and it is actually 'Observer' <g> ...
"Volkischer Beobachter: (German: “People's Observer”), daily newspaper
published by the Nazi Party in Germany from the 1920s until the fall of the
Third Reich ..."
Nazi party eh??? I guess we know who are HIS heroes!
LOL
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk
Quite so, MM the anti democracy fascist is a great supporter of The Forth Reich, understandably because his beloved Vaterland failed the first time.
Ophelia
2017-08-07 16:02:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by pullgees
This paragon of truth, this organ of propaganda, the f has a story about
Gina Miller again. This time it's about
Gina backing up Alan Sugar for his position on Brexiters, namely that
"Lord Sugar has claimed that both the Foreign Secretary and
Environment Secretary should face 'criminal charges' for their
promises leading up to the Brexit vote."
I agree. If a CEO of a company told such porkies to try and win
business, (s)he'd be prosecuted for fraud. And yet these politicians
who lied get away scot free, go on their merry way, and are still
spinning their web of deceit right now.
And what do we get from Bumptious Boris in return? Just hot air,
waffle and an attempt to make light of it. The thing is, Boris can be
serious when he wants to be. But over Brexit he chooses to play the
fool. Perhaps he knows what most Brexiters don't: Brexit will not
actually happen, so it doesn't matter what he says.
Anyway, for those who like a good laugh, here is the article from the
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/837527/Brexit-news-Gina-Miller-Michael-Gove-Boris-Johnson-latest-Theresa-May-BBC-live
MM
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com
The Forth Reich with it's digital news sheet the Europa.eu is more to your liking.
==
lol and btw his translation of "Daily Beobachter, aka Express", is rubbish
and it is actually 'Observer' <g> ...
"Volkischer Beobachter: (German: “People's Observer”), daily newspaper
published by the Nazi Party in Germany from the 1920s until the fall of the
Third Reich ..."
Nazi party eh??? I guess we know who are HIS heroes!
LOL
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk
Quite so, MM the anti democracy fascist is a great supporter of The Forth
Reich, understandably because his beloved Vaterland failed the first time.

==

<g>

He tends to forget he isn't the only person who has lived in Germany. I
lived there for a number of years and my daughter and her family still live
there:)
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk
Dean Jackson
2017-08-20 22:27:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by pullgees
This paragon of truth, this organ of propaganda, the f has a story
about Gina Miller again. This time it's about
Gina backing up Alan Sugar for his position on Brexiters, namely that
"Lord Sugar has claimed that both the Foreign Secretary and
Environment Secretary should face 'criminal charges' for their
promises leading up to the Brexit vote."
I agree. If a CEO of a company told such porkies to try and win
business, (s)he'd be prosecuted for fraud. And yet these politicians
who lied get away scot free, go on their merry way, and are still
spinning their web of deceit right now.
And what do we get from Bumptious Boris in return? Just hot air,
waffle and an attempt to make light of it. The thing is, Boris can be
serious when he wants to be. But over Brexit he chooses to play the
fool. Perhaps he knows what most Brexiters don't: Brexit will not
actually happen, so it doesn't matter what he says.
Anyway, for those who like a good laugh, here is the article from the
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/837527/Brexit-news-Gina-Miller-Michael-Gove-Boris-Johnson-latest-Theresa-May-BBC-live
MM
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com
The Forth Reich with it's digital news sheet the Europa.eu is more to your liking.
==
lol and btw  his translation of "Daily Beobachter, aka Express",  is
rubbish and it is actually 'Observer' <g>  ...
"Volkischer Beobachter: (German: “People's Observer”), daily newspaper
published by the Nazi Party in Germany from the 1920s until the fall of
the Third Reich ..."
Nazi party eh???  I guess we know who are HIS heroes!
LOL
Is the Forth Reich published in Edinburgh ?
D.J.
Ophelia
2017-08-21 10:42:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by pullgees
This paragon of truth, this organ of propaganda, the f has a story about
Gina Miller again. This time it's about
Gina backing up Alan Sugar for his position on Brexiters, namely that
"Lord Sugar has claimed that both the Foreign Secretary and
Environment Secretary should face 'criminal charges' for their
promises leading up to the Brexit vote."
I agree. If a CEO of a company told such porkies to try and win
business, (s)he'd be prosecuted for fraud. And yet these politicians
who lied get away scot free, go on their merry way, and are still
spinning their web of deceit right now.
And what do we get from Bumptious Boris in return? Just hot air,
waffle and an attempt to make light of it. The thing is, Boris can be
serious when he wants to be. But over Brexit he chooses to play the
fool. Perhaps he knows what most Brexiters don't: Brexit will not
actually happen, so it doesn't matter what he says.
Anyway, for those who like a good laugh, here is the article from the
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/837527/Brexit-news-Gina-Miller-Michael-Gove-Boris-Johnson-latest-Theresa-May-BBC-live
MM
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com
The Forth Reich with it's digital news sheet the Europa.eu is more to your liking.
==
lol and btw his translation of "Daily Beobachter, aka Express", is
rubbish and it is actually 'Observer' <g> ...
"Volkischer Beobachter: (German: “People's Observer”), daily newspaper
published by the Nazi Party in Germany from the 1920s until the fall of
the Third Reich ..."
Nazi party eh??? I guess we know who are HIS heroes!
LOL
Is the Forth Reich published in Edinburgh ?
D.J.

==

I have no idea, why, did you want one?:)) Sorry I can't help:)
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk
tim...
2017-08-07 10:04:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by MM
This paragon of truth, this organ of propaganda, the Daily Beobachter,
aka Express, has a story about Gina Miller again. This time it's about
Gina backing up Alan Sugar for his position on Brexiters, namely that
"Lord Sugar has claimed that both the Foreign Secretary and
Environment Secretary should face 'criminal charges' for their
promises leading up to the Brexit vote."
so the (old) Chancellor and PM should as well then

They were all guilty of exaggerating their position and if you want to
describe that as lying you have to do it fairly

you can't just attribute it to the opposition whilst letting your side off
scot free of the same crime


tim
Altroy1
2017-08-07 17:03:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by MM
This paragon of truth, this organ of propaganda, the Daily Beobachter,
aka Express, has a story about Gina Miller again. This time it's about
Gina backing up Alan Sugar for his position on Brexiters, namely that
"Lord Sugar has claimed that both the Foreign Secretary and
Environment Secretary should face 'criminal charges' for their
promises leading up to the Brexit vote."
I agree. If a CEO of a company told such porkies to try and win
business, (s)he'd be prosecuted for fraud. And yet these politicians
who lied get away scot free, go on their merry way, and are still
spinning their web of deceit right now.
Unfortunately in politics hyperbole and spin are integral to its art, for better
or worse.

The case of Phil Woolas showed that only specific falsehoods directed at a
political opponent's personal integrity are actionable.

The sad truth is that to legislate against that malicious lying battlebus is
something like legislating against stupidity. Instead, voters need to be
educated in spin.

GCSE spin should be a subject taught in all schools with the equal importance of
Maths and English.

Meanwhile, Brexit is going more pear shaped daily. I doubt however even the best
trained Brexit spinmeisters have any plans to roam the land with a battlebus
slogan about how many doctors and nurses could be hired instead of paying a £36
billion exit bill to the hated EU.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-divorce-bill-what-would-36bn-buy-a3605591.html

Just over a year ago, campaigners for Brexit claimed that
leaving the European Union would free up £350 million a week
for the NHS.

Now it seems as though Whitehall will actually have to
tighten its belt to pay an exit toll of about £36 billion.

If the cash really were going to be spent on the NHS, that
sum would be enough to buy more than six million people
hip operations - or pay for 70 flagship general hospitals


http://news.sky.com/story/conservative-mps-angered-by-reports-of-36bn-brexit-divorce-bill-10977059

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/us-trade-deal-brexit-cancer-milk-aflatoxins-peanuts-a7877541.html
Dean Jackson
2017-08-20 22:33:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Altroy1
Post by MM
This paragon of truth, this organ of propaganda, the Daily Beobachter,
aka Express, has a story about Gina Miller again. This time it's about
Gina backing up Alan Sugar for his position on Brexiters, namely that
"Lord Sugar has claimed that both the Foreign Secretary and
Environment Secretary should face 'criminal charges' for their
promises leading up to the Brexit vote."
I agree. If a CEO of a company told such porkies to try and win
business, (s)he'd be prosecuted for fraud. And yet these politicians
who lied get away scot free, go on their merry way, and are still
spinning their web of deceit right now.
Unfortunately in politics hyperbole and spin are integral to its art,
for better or worse.
The case of Phil Woolas showed that only specific falsehoods directed at
a political opponent's personal integrity are actionable.
The sad truth is that to legislate against that malicious lying
battlebus is something like legislating against stupidity. Instead,
voters need to be educated in spin.
GCSE spin should be a subject taught in all schools with the equal
importance of Maths and English.
Meanwhile, Brexit is going more pear shaped daily. I doubt however even
the best trained Brexit spinmeisters have any plans to roam the land
with a battlebus slogan about how many doctors and nurses could be hired
instead of paying a £36 billion exit bill to the hated EU.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-divorce-bill-what-would-36bn-buy-a3605591.html
   Just over a year ago, campaigners for Brexit claimed that
   leaving the European Union would free up £350 million a week
   for the NHS.
   Now it seems as though Whitehall will actually have to
   tighten its belt to pay an exit toll of about £36 billion.
   If the cash really were going to be spent on the NHS, that
   sum would be enough to buy more than six million people
   hip operations - or pay for  70 flagship general hospitals
http://news.sky.com/story/conservative-mps-angered-by-reports-of-36bn-brexit-divorce-bill-10977059
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/us-trade-deal-brexit-cancer-milk-aflatoxins-peanuts-a7877541.html
You must be using Diane Abbott's Book of Maths for the cost of hip op's
--
D.J.
Dan S. MacAbre
2017-08-07 15:57:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by MM
This paragon of truth, this organ of propaganda, the Daily Beobachter,
aka Express, has a story about Gina Miller again. This time it's about
Gina backing up Alan Sugar for his position on Brexiters, namely that
"Lord Sugar has claimed that both the Foreign Secretary and
Environment Secretary should face 'criminal charges' for their
promises leading up to the Brexit vote."
I agree. If a CEO of a company told such porkies to try and win
business, (s)he'd be prosecuted for fraud. And yet these politicians
who lied get away scot free, go on their merry way, and are still
spinning their web of deceit right now.
Like no-one's ever suggested holding politicians to account before :-)
But why bring it up again?

Unfortunately, mendacity seems to be a required skill, rather than an
actual hindrance.
Post by MM
And what do we get from Bumptious Boris in return? Just hot air,
waffle and an attempt to make light of it. The thing is, Boris can be
serious when he wants to be. But over Brexit he chooses to play the
fool. Perhaps he knows what most Brexiters don't: Brexit will not
actually happen, so it doesn't matter what he says.
Anyway, for those who like a good laugh, here is the article from the
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/837527/Brexit-news-Gina-Miller-Michael-Gove-Boris-Johnson-latest-Theresa-May-BBC-live
MM
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com
Yellow
2017-08-07 18:48:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by MM
This paragon of truth, this organ of propaganda, the Daily Beobachter,
aka Express, has a story about Gina Miller again. This time it's about
Gina backing up Alan Sugar for his position on Brexiters, namely that
"Lord Sugar has claimed that both the Foreign Secretary and
Environment Secretary should face 'criminal charges' for their
promises leading up to the Brexit vote."
I agree. If a CEO of a company told such porkies to try and win
business, (s)he'd be prosecuted for fraud. And yet these politicians
who lied get away scot free, go on their merry way, and are still
spinning their web of deceit right now.
Like no-one's ever suggested holding politicians to account before :-)
But why bring it up again?
Unfortunately, mendacity seems to be a required skill, rather than an
actual hindrance.
And what punishment should there be for the lies told by the likes of
Gina Miller? It is not just politicians who influence public opinion
with their stories but everyone who is in a position of authority or who
has the media spotlight.

If we are going to put the full force of the law behind one lot, we need
surely to have it behind them all.
Dan S. MacAbre
2017-08-07 18:57:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by MM
This paragon of truth, this organ of propaganda, the Daily Beobachter,
aka Express, has a story about Gina Miller again. This time it's about
Gina backing up Alan Sugar for his position on Brexiters, namely that
"Lord Sugar has claimed that both the Foreign Secretary and
Environment Secretary should face 'criminal charges' for their
promises leading up to the Brexit vote."
I agree. If a CEO of a company told such porkies to try and win
business, (s)he'd be prosecuted for fraud. And yet these politicians
who lied get away scot free, go on their merry way, and are still
spinning their web of deceit right now.
Like no-one's ever suggested holding politicians to account before :-)
But why bring it up again?
Unfortunately, mendacity seems to be a required skill, rather than an
actual hindrance.
And what punishment should there be for the lies told by the likes of
Gina Miller? It is not just politicians who influence public opinion
with their stories but everyone who is in a position of authority or who
has the media spotlight.
If we are going to put the full force of the law behind one lot, we need
surely to have it behind them all.
That's why I'm saying 'why bring it up now?' We've had to put up with
it for years; in fact, as you get older, you just take it for granted.
So why is it suddenly newsworthy?
Yellow
2017-08-07 19:33:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by Yellow
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by MM
This paragon of truth, this organ of propaganda, the Daily Beobachter,
aka Express, has a story about Gina Miller again. This time it's about
Gina backing up Alan Sugar for his position on Brexiters, namely that
"Lord Sugar has claimed that both the Foreign Secretary and
Environment Secretary should face 'criminal charges' for their
promises leading up to the Brexit vote."
I agree. If a CEO of a company told such porkies to try and win
business, (s)he'd be prosecuted for fraud. And yet these politicians
who lied get away scot free, go on their merry way, and are still
spinning their web of deceit right now.
Like no-one's ever suggested holding politicians to account before :-)
But why bring it up again?
Unfortunately, mendacity seems to be a required skill, rather than an
actual hindrance.
And what punishment should there be for the lies told by the likes of
Gina Miller? It is not just politicians who influence public opinion
with their stories but everyone who is in a position of authority or who
has the media spotlight.
If we are going to put the full force of the law behind one lot, we need
surely to have it behind them all.
That's why I'm saying 'why bring it up now?' We've had to put up with
it for years; in fact, as you get older, you just take it for granted.
So why is it suddenly newsworthy?
Because they see it as another way to try to get the Brexit vote
overturned.
pamela
2017-08-15 18:47:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by Yellow
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by MM
This paragon of truth, this organ of propaganda, the Daily
Beobachter, aka Express, has a story about Gina Miller
again. This time it's about Gina backing up Alan Sugar for
his position on Brexiters, namely that
"Lord Sugar has claimed that both the Foreign Secretary and
Environment Secretary should face 'criminal charges' for
their promises leading up to the Brexit vote."
I agree. If a CEO of a company told such porkies to try and
win business, (s)he'd be prosecuted for fraud. And yet
these politicians who lied get away scot free, go on their
merry way, and are still spinning their web of deceit right
now.
Like no-one's ever suggested holding politicians to account
before :-) But why bring it up again?
Unfortunately, mendacity seems to be a required skill,
rather than an actual hindrance.
And what punishment should there be for the lies told by the
likes of Gina Miller? It is not just politicians who
influence public opinion with their stories but everyone who
is in a position of authority or who has the media spotlight.
If we are going to put the full force of the law behind one
lot, we need surely to have it behind them all.
That's why I'm saying 'why bring it up now?' We've had to put
up with it for years; in fact, as you get older, you just take
it for granted. So why is it suddenly newsworthy?
Because they see it as another way to try to get the Brexit vote
overturned.
The Brexit referendum outcome is getting stale and encountering
difficulty in delivering the result intended by its proponents. It
was a poor decision in the first instance. Maybe it's time for a
rethink.
Ian Jackson
2017-08-15 19:13:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by pamela
Post by Yellow
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by Yellow
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by MM
This paragon of truth, this organ of propaganda, the Daily
Beobachter, aka Express, has a story about Gina Miller
again. This time it's about Gina backing up Alan Sugar for
his position on Brexiters, namely that
"Lord Sugar has claimed that both the Foreign Secretary and
Environment Secretary should face 'criminal charges' for
their promises leading up to the Brexit vote."
I agree. If a CEO of a company told such porkies to try and
win business, (s)he'd be prosecuted for fraud. And yet
these politicians who lied get away scot free, go on their
merry way, and are still spinning their web of deceit right
now.
Like no-one's ever suggested holding politicians to account
before :-) But why bring it up again?
Unfortunately, mendacity seems to be a required skill,
rather than an actual hindrance.
And what punishment should there be for the lies told by the
likes of Gina Miller? It is not just politicians who
influence public opinion with their stories but everyone who
is in a position of authority or who has the media spotlight.
If we are going to put the full force of the law behind one
lot, we need surely to have it behind them all.
That's why I'm saying 'why bring it up now?' We've had to put
up with it for years; in fact, as you get older, you just take
it for granted. So why is it suddenly newsworthy?
Because they see it as another way to try to get the Brexit vote
overturned.
The Brexit referendum outcome is getting stale and encountering
difficulty in delivering the result intended by its proponents. It
was a poor decision in the first instance. Maybe it's time for a
rethink.
The Brexiteers won't tolerate re-thinking. [This could, of course, be
because they are not very good at any kind of thinking.]
--
Ian
Norman Wells
2017-08-15 20:32:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by pamela
The Brexit referendum outcome is getting stale and encountering
difficulty in delivering the result intended by its proponents. It
was a poor decision in the first instance. Maybe it's time for a
rethink.
Off you go then. Have a rethink.
kat
2017-08-15 21:21:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by pamela
Post by Yellow
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by Yellow
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by MM
This paragon of truth, this organ of propaganda, the Daily
Beobachter, aka Express, has a story about Gina Miller
again. This time it's about Gina backing up Alan Sugar for
his position on Brexiters, namely that
"Lord Sugar has claimed that both the Foreign Secretary and
Environment Secretary should face 'criminal charges' for
their promises leading up to the Brexit vote."
I agree. If a CEO of a company told such porkies to try and
win business, (s)he'd be prosecuted for fraud. And yet
these politicians who lied get away scot free, go on their
merry way, and are still spinning their web of deceit right
now.
Like no-one's ever suggested holding politicians to account
before :-) But why bring it up again?
Unfortunately, mendacity seems to be a required skill,
rather than an actual hindrance.
And what punishment should there be for the lies told by the
likes of Gina Miller? It is not just politicians who
influence public opinion with their stories but everyone who
is in a position of authority or who has the media spotlight.
If we are going to put the full force of the law behind one
lot, we need surely to have it behind them all.
That's why I'm saying 'why bring it up now?' We've had to put
up with it for years; in fact, as you get older, you just take
it for granted. So why is it suddenly newsworthy?
Because they see it as another way to try to get the Brexit vote
overturned.
The Brexit referendum outcome is getting stale and encountering
difficulty in delivering the result intended by its proponents. It
was a poor decision in the first instance. Maybe it's time for a
rethink.
Recent poll suggests plenty of Remainers already have re-thought. And
back Brexit.
--
kat
Post by pamela
^..^<
The Todal
2017-08-16 10:22:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by kat
Post by pamela
Post by Yellow
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by Yellow
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by MM
This paragon of truth, this organ of propaganda, the Daily
Beobachter, aka Express, has a story about Gina Miller
again. This time it's about Gina backing up Alan Sugar for
his position on Brexiters, namely that
"Lord Sugar has claimed that both the Foreign Secretary and
Environment Secretary should face 'criminal charges' for
their promises leading up to the Brexit vote."
I agree. If a CEO of a company told such porkies to try and
win business, (s)he'd be prosecuted for fraud. And yet
these politicians who lied get away scot free, go on their
merry way, and are still spinning their web of deceit right
now.
Like no-one's ever suggested holding politicians to account
before :-) But why bring it up again?
Unfortunately, mendacity seems to be a required skill,
rather than an actual hindrance.
And what punishment should there be for the lies told by the
likes of Gina Miller? It is not just politicians who
influence public opinion with their stories but everyone who
is in a position of authority or who has the media spotlight.
If we are going to put the full force of the law behind one
lot, we need surely to have it behind them all.
That's why I'm saying 'why bring it up now?' We've had to put
up with it for years; in fact, as you get older, you just take
it for granted. So why is it suddenly newsworthy?
Because they see it as another way to try to get the Brexit vote
overturned.
The Brexit referendum outcome is getting stale and encountering
difficulty in delivering the result intended by its proponents. It
was a poor decision in the first instance. Maybe it's time for a
rethink.
Recent poll suggests plenty of Remainers already have re-thought. And
back Brexit.
And that is as relevant as any poll that shows a majority of citizens in
favour of an old-style dark blue passport to replace the purple EU one.

Brexit may currently be in fashion. Many things drift in and out of
fashion. Time to stop consulting the plebs. Time to take back control
and give it to the experts. There are some experts out there. Very few
are in favour of Brexit.
Norman Wells
2017-08-16 10:33:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Todal
Brexit may currently be in fashion. Many things drift in and out of
fashion. Time to stop consulting the plebs. Time to take back control
and give it to the experts. There are some experts out there. Very few
are in favour of Brexit.
Oh well, that's democracy over then. Nice while it lasted.

The only problem now is to decide who are the 'experts' in whatever it
is to be decided, and to decide who decides who they are.
kat
2017-08-16 21:44:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Brexit may currently be in fashion. Many things drift in and out of
fashion. Time to stop consulting the plebs. Time to take back control
and give it to the experts. There are some experts out there. Very few
are in favour of Brexit.
Oh well, that's democracy over then. Nice while it lasted.
The only problem now is to decide who are the 'experts' in whatever it
is to be decided, and to decide who decides who they are.
And then we all assume they are experts in feathering their own nests,
anyway.
--
kat
Post by Norman Wells
^..^<
The Todal
2017-08-17 00:23:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Brexit may currently be in fashion. Many things drift in and out of
fashion. Time to stop consulting the plebs. Time to take back control
and give it to the experts. There are some experts out there. Very few
are in favour of Brexit.
Oh well, that's democracy over then. Nice while it lasted.
No, it was dreadful while it lasted. A pantomime of a referendum
campaign with repetitive formulaic slogans that meant very little.
Post by Norman Wells
The only problem now is to decide who are the 'experts' in whatever it
is to be decided, and to decide who decides who they are.
The experts who support Brexit are about as plentiful as the experts who
deny man-made climage change.
Norman Wells
2017-08-17 08:37:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Brexit may currently be in fashion. Many things drift in and out of
fashion. Time to stop consulting the plebs. Time to take back control
and give it to the experts. There are some experts out there. Very
few are in favour of Brexit.
Oh well, that's democracy over then. Nice while it lasted.
No, it was dreadful while it lasted. A pantomime of a referendum
campaign with repetitive formulaic slogans that meant very little.
Post by Norman Wells
The only problem now is to decide who are the 'experts' in whatever it
is to be decided, and to decide who decides who they are.
The experts who support Brexit are about as plentiful as the experts who
deny man-made climage change.
Not the experts I've decided are the experts.
The Todal
2017-08-17 13:01:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Brexit may currently be in fashion. Many things drift in and out of
fashion. Time to stop consulting the plebs. Time to take back
control and give it to the experts. There are some experts out
there. Very few are in favour of Brexit.
Oh well, that's democracy over then. Nice while it lasted.
No, it was dreadful while it lasted. A pantomime of a referendum
campaign with repetitive formulaic slogans that meant very little.
Post by Norman Wells
The only problem now is to decide who are the 'experts' in whatever
it is to be decided, and to decide who decides who they are.
The experts who support Brexit are about as plentiful as the experts
who deny man-made climage change.
Not the experts I've decided are the experts.
To paraphrase Al Gore, if you were being investigated for a serious
heart condition and you consulted 100 cardiologists and 98 of them said
that you were in danger of a heart attack and needed medicine, would you
choose to prefer the views of the two specialists who told you "don't
worry, there's nothing wrong with you"?
Norman Wells
2017-08-17 14:08:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Brexit may currently be in fashion. Many things drift in and out of
fashion. Time to stop consulting the plebs. Time to take back
control and give it to the experts. There are some experts out
there. Very few are in favour of Brexit.
Oh well, that's democracy over then. Nice while it lasted.
No, it was dreadful while it lasted. A pantomime of a referendum
campaign with repetitive formulaic slogans that meant very little.
Post by Norman Wells
The only problem now is to decide who are the 'experts' in whatever
it is to be decided, and to decide who decides who they are.
The experts who support Brexit are about as plentiful as the experts
who deny man-made climage change.
Not the experts I've decided are the experts.
To paraphrase Al Gore, if you were being investigated for a serious
heart condition and you consulted 100 cardiologists and 98 of them said
that you were in danger of a heart attack and needed medicine, would you
choose to prefer the views of the two specialists who told you "don't
worry, there's nothing wrong with you"?
There might be some consensus as to who is a medical expert, although
even though that's doubtful having regard to the recent case of that
poor Charlie Gard child.

I don't know of any degree course in Brexit, though, nor any specialists
in it who have an established track record.

Do you?
Vidcapper
2017-08-17 16:21:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Brexit may currently be in fashion. Many things drift in and out of
fashion. Time to stop consulting the plebs. Time to take back
control and give it to the experts. There are some experts out
there. Very few are in favour of Brexit.
Oh well, that's democracy over then. Nice while it lasted.
No, it was dreadful while it lasted. A pantomime of a referendum
campaign with repetitive formulaic slogans that meant very little.
Post by Norman Wells
The only problem now is to decide who are the 'experts' in whatever
it is to be decided, and to decide who decides who they are.
The experts who support Brexit are about as plentiful as the experts
who deny man-made climage change.
Not the experts I've decided are the experts.
To paraphrase Al Gore, if you were being investigated for a serious
heart condition and you consulted 100 cardiologists and 98 of them said
that you were in danger of a heart attack and needed medicine, would you
choose to prefer the views of the two specialists who told you "don't
worry, there's nothing wrong with you"?
Straw man
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
The Todal
2017-08-17 17:40:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Vidcapper
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Brexit may currently be in fashion. Many things drift in and out of
fashion. Time to stop consulting the plebs. Time to take back
control and give it to the experts. There are some experts out
there. Very few are in favour of Brexit.
Oh well, that's democracy over then. Nice while it lasted.
No, it was dreadful while it lasted. A pantomime of a referendum
campaign with repetitive formulaic slogans that meant very little.
Post by Norman Wells
The only problem now is to decide who are the 'experts' in whatever
it is to be decided, and to decide who decides who they are.
The experts who support Brexit are about as plentiful as the experts
who deny man-made climage change.
Not the experts I've decided are the experts.
To paraphrase Al Gore, if you were being investigated for a serious
heart condition and you consulted 100 cardiologists and 98 of them said
that you were in danger of a heart attack and needed medicine, would you
choose to prefer the views of the two specialists who told you "don't
worry, there's nothing wrong with you"?
Straw man
Heartless.
Fredxxx
2017-08-17 20:00:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Brexit may currently be in fashion. Many things drift in and out of
fashion. Time to stop consulting the plebs. Time to take back
control and give it to the experts. There are some experts out
there. Very few are in favour of Brexit.
Oh well, that's democracy over then. Nice while it lasted.
No, it was dreadful while it lasted. A pantomime of a referendum
campaign with repetitive formulaic slogans that meant very little.
Post by Norman Wells
The only problem now is to decide who are the 'experts' in whatever
it is to be decided, and to decide who decides who they are.
The experts who support Brexit are about as plentiful as the experts
who deny man-made climage change.
Not the experts I've decided are the experts.
To paraphrase Al Gore, if you were being investigated for a serious
heart condition and you consulted 100 cardiologists and 98 of them said
that you were in danger of a heart attack and needed medicine, would you
choose to prefer the views of the two specialists who told you "don't
worry, there's nothing wrong with you"?
That's a very good point.

If Michael Heseltine is lamenting on having to pay workers more, if
house prices are the highest they have been in terms of price/income
ratio through demand, if the infrastructure hasn't kept up with
immigration, and all the Remoaners are saying this is great..............

In much the same way you wouldn't ask a politician or businessman
dependant on cheap labour for his opinion on Brexit.
pamela
2017-08-19 18:26:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Brexit may currently be in fashion. Many things drift in and
out of fashion. Time to stop consulting the plebs. Time to
take back control and give it to the experts. There are some
experts out there. Very few are in favour of Brexit.
Oh well, that's democracy over then. Nice while it lasted.
No, it was dreadful while it lasted. A pantomime of a
referendum campaign with repetitive formulaic slogans that
meant very little.
Post by Norman Wells
The only problem now is to decide who are the 'experts' in
whatever it is to be decided, and to decide who decides who
they are.
The experts who support Brexit are about as plentiful as the
experts who deny man-made climage change.
Not the experts I've decided are the experts.
To paraphrase Al Gore, if you were being investigated for a
serious heart condition and you consulted 100 cardiologists and
98 of them said that you were in danger of a heart attack and
needed medicine, would you choose to prefer the views of the two
specialists who told you "don't worry, there's nothing wrong
with you"?
That sums it up well.
Vidcapper
2017-08-17 16:20:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Brexit may currently be in fashion. Many things drift in and out of
fashion. Time to stop consulting the plebs. Time to take back control
and give it to the experts. There are some experts out there. Very
few are in favour of Brexit.
Oh well, that's democracy over then. Nice while it lasted.
No, it was dreadful while it lasted. A pantomime of a referendum
campaign with repetitive formulaic slogans that meant very little.
I bet you wouldn't have been saying that if Remain had won...
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
The Todal
2017-08-17 17:43:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Vidcapper
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Brexit may currently be in fashion. Many things drift in and out of
fashion. Time to stop consulting the plebs. Time to take back control
and give it to the experts. There are some experts out there. Very
few are in favour of Brexit.
Oh well, that's democracy over then. Nice while it lasted.
No, it was dreadful while it lasted. A pantomime of a referendum
campaign with repetitive formulaic slogans that meant very little.
I bet you wouldn't have been saying that if Remain had won...
You'd lose your bet.

Most sensible people think that the referendum was Cameron's stupid
mistake. Not just because he complacently believed he'd win but because
there was no way of putting the arguments properly and fairly before a
largely ignorant electorate.

It is as stupid has having a referendum each time the Chancellor
produces a budget, to let "the people" approve or reject the budget.
They simply don't have the skill to make the necessary decision.
harry
2017-08-17 18:09:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Todal
Post by Vidcapper
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Brexit may currently be in fashion. Many things drift in and out of
fashion. Time to stop consulting the plebs. Time to take back control
and give it to the experts. There are some experts out there. Very
few are in favour of Brexit.
Oh well, that's democracy over then. Nice while it lasted.
No, it was dreadful while it lasted. A pantomime of a referendum
campaign with repetitive formulaic slogans that meant very little.
I bet you wouldn't have been saying that if Remain had won...
You'd lose your bet.
Most sensible people think that the referendum was Cameron's stupid
mistake. Not just because he complacently believed he'd win but because
there was no way of putting the arguments properly and fairly before a
largely ignorant electorate.
It is as stupid has having a referendum each time the Chancellor
produces a budget, to let "the people" approve or reject the budget.
They simply don't have the skill to make the necessary decision.
But we can get rid of the chancellor.
And have.
Vidcapper
2017-08-17 16:19:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Brexit may currently be in fashion. Many things drift in and out of
fashion. Time to stop consulting the plebs. Time to take back control
and give it to the experts. There are some experts out there. Very few
are in favour of Brexit.
Oh well, that's democracy over then. Nice while it lasted.
The only problem now is to decide who are the 'experts' in whatever it
is to be decided, and to decide who decides who they are.
The use of experts can be counter-productive - they may understand the
issues, but their high salaries mean they can't grasp how the issues
affect ordinary people.
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
The Todal
2017-08-17 17:46:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Vidcapper
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Brexit may currently be in fashion. Many things drift in and out of
fashion. Time to stop consulting the plebs. Time to take back control
and give it to the experts. There are some experts out there. Very few
are in favour of Brexit.
Oh well, that's democracy over then. Nice while it lasted.
The only problem now is to decide who are the 'experts' in whatever it
is to be decided, and to decide who decides who they are.
The use of experts can be counter-productive - they may understand the
issues, but their high salaries mean they can't grasp how the issues
affect ordinary people.
Most farmers, most businessmen, most economists and most people working
in the financial markets believe that Britain will suffer greatly as a
result of Brexit.

The experts who are optimistic are the nation's factory workers who say
that the EU has never given them anything other than wage freezes and
austerity, and Brexit will enable our nation to save huge sums of money
and sell our goods all over the world to markets which hitherto have
been closed to us, resulting in more jobs and higher wages and
glittering pots at the end of each rainbow.
HarryTheHorse
2017-08-20 21:54:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Brexit may currently be in fashion. Many things drift in and out of
fashion. Time to stop consulting the plebs. Time to take back control
and give it to the experts. There are some experts out there. Very few
are in favour of Brexit.
Oh well, that's democracy over then. Nice while it lasted.
What democracy? The electorate was gerrymandered. The referendum has
no democratic legitlacy and should be ignored. Re run it will all
British citizens allowed to vote

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com
Vidcapper
2017-08-17 16:16:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Todal
Brexit may currently be in fashion. Many things drift in and out of
fashion. Time to stop consulting the plebs. Time to take back control
and give it to the experts. There are some experts out there. Very few
are in favour of Brexit.
That sort of logic could lead to the abolition of juries.

Referenda tend to arise when no mainstream party supports a policy which
is popular amongst ordinary voters. Politicians then have to make a
choice between offering one, or seeing the rise of a single issue parties.
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
The Todal
2017-08-17 17:50:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Vidcapper
Post by The Todal
Brexit may currently be in fashion. Many things drift in and out of
fashion. Time to stop consulting the plebs. Time to take back control
and give it to the experts. There are some experts out there. Very few
are in favour of Brexit.
That sort of logic could lead to the abolition of juries.
Would you let a jury decide whether your child should have a dangerous
life-saving operation? Inundate the jury with lots of technical papers
and ask them to figure it out for themselves?

Or would you prefer that the decision be made by a team of doctors who
discuss the various options and pool their expertise?
Post by Vidcapper
Referenda tend to arise when no mainstream party supports a policy which
is popular amongst ordinary voters. Politicians then have to make a
choice between offering one, or seeing the rise of a single issue parties.
Cameron was foolish and cowardly. He didn't need to offer a referendum.
We could have waited another 20 years and UKIP still wouldn't have won
more than two or three seats in Parliament.
Norman Wells
2017-08-17 18:22:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Todal
Cameron was foolish and cowardly. He didn't need to offer a referendum.
We could have waited another 20 years and UKIP still wouldn't have won
more than two or three seats in Parliament.
It's very naive to think that the referendum had anything to do with
UKIP. He had greater problems in his own party, which is why he set off
on his grand tour of EU leaders trying to screw out of them some
concessions that would satisfy those in his own party calling for Brexit.

The threat of a referendum that could in theory end up with a Leave vote
was intended to be a lever against the EU in those discussions, and was
in the Tory manifesto to show serious intent. As you will be aware,
however, he managed to secure nothing of any significance whatsoever.
The EU called his bluff, obviously thinking in their typically arrogant
way 'You will never leave'.

The referendum then had to happen, with the result we all know.

The EU miscalculated. Who knows, the result might have been different
if they'd just been a little more conciliatory. But they weren't and
they're not even now. They're showing their true colours and they're
really quite unpleasant. All the arrogance is still there, and it's
confirming to most Leavers that they made absolutely the right decision.
Why would they want to remain members of a club that behaves like that?
The Todal
2017-08-17 19:02:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Cameron was foolish and cowardly. He didn't need to offer a
referendum. We could have waited another 20 years and UKIP still
wouldn't have won more than two or three seats in Parliament.
It's very naive to think that the referendum had anything to do with
UKIP. He had greater problems in his own party, which is why he set off
on his grand tour of EU leaders trying to screw out of them some
concessions that would satisfy those in his own party calling for Brexit.
I agree - it was the Tory Eurosceptics that were bothering him, not the
grandstanding Nigel Farage and his small team of smokers and drinkers.
Post by Norman Wells
The threat of a referendum that could in theory end up with a Leave vote
was intended to be a lever against the EU in those discussions, and was
in the Tory manifesto to show serious intent. As you will be aware,
however, he managed to secure nothing of any significance whatsoever.
The EU called his bluff, obviously thinking in their typically arrogant
way 'You will never leave'.
Another way of looking at it is that they offered the very limit of what
they could offer based on the laws and treaties to which all EU nation
members are subject.

They had been repeatedly asked to bend the rules for Britain to appease
the greedy, grumpy Brits but there were limits beyond which they weren't
willing to go, and they were quite right and Cameron was stupidly
optimistic to think otherwise.
Post by Norman Wells
The referendum then had to happen, with the result we all know.
It only had to happen because Cameron foolishly promised a referendum.
He believed it would pan out like the Scottish one. Government
propaganda should theoretically be more persuasive than rebel propaganda.
Post by Norman Wells
The EU miscalculated.
Britain miscalculated.


Who knows, the result might have been different
Post by Norman Wells
if they'd just been a little more conciliatory. But they weren't and
they're not even now. They're showing their true colours and they're
really quite unpleasant. All the arrogance is still there, and it's
confirming to most Leavers that they made absolutely the right decision.
Why would they want to remain members of a club that behaves like that?
If we eventually do leave the EU, which I think is increasingly
unlikely, within 10 years we'll be on our bended knees begging them to
let us back in.
Norman Wells
2017-08-17 21:10:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Cameron was foolish and cowardly. He didn't need to offer a
referendum. We could have waited another 20 years and UKIP still
wouldn't have won more than two or three seats in Parliament.
It's very naive to think that the referendum had anything to do with
UKIP. He had greater problems in his own party, which is why he set
off on his grand tour of EU leaders trying to screw out of them some
concessions that would satisfy those in his own party calling for Brexit.
I agree - it was the Tory Eurosceptics that were bothering him, not the
grandstanding Nigel Farage and his small team of smokers and drinkers.
Post by Norman Wells
The threat of a referendum that could in theory end up with a Leave
vote was intended to be a lever against the EU in those discussions,
and was in the Tory manifesto to show serious intent. As you will be
aware, however, he managed to secure nothing of any significance
whatsoever. The EU called his bluff, obviously thinking in their
typically arrogant way 'You will never leave'.
Another way of looking at it is that they offered the very limit of what
they could offer based on the laws and treaties to which all EU nation
members are subject.
Yes. It's not a very convincing way of looking at it though. Witness
all the derogations, rebates etc that abound throughout the EU.
Post by The Todal
They had been repeatedly asked to bend the rules for Britain to appease
the greedy, grumpy Brits but there were limits beyond which they weren't
willing to go, and they were quite right and Cameron was stupidly
optimistic to think otherwise.
Well, no, they were actually wrong. Had we voted to remain despite
Cameron achieving no concessions whatsoever, they could have claimed,
probably with ineffable smugness, that they were right. But they didn't
anticipate that we would vote to leave and take our money home.
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
The referendum then had to happen, with the result we all know.
It only had to happen because Cameron foolishly promised a referendum.
He believed it would pan out like the Scottish one. Government
propaganda should theoretically be more persuasive than rebel propaganda.
Leaving the EU had to be a credible threat if we were to have any hope
of achieving any concessions.
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
The EU miscalculated.
Yes.
Post by The Todal
Britain miscalculated.
I don't know who you mean by 'Britain'. Certainly, Cameron achieved
nothing despite all his diplomacy. The country reacted to that by
voting to leave.
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Who knows, the result might have been different
if they'd just been a little more conciliatory. But they weren't and
they're not even now. They're showing their true colours and they're
really quite unpleasant. All the arrogance is still there, and it's
confirming to most Leavers that they made absolutely the right
decision. Why would they want to remain members of a club that
behaves like that?
If we eventually do leave the EU, which I think is increasingly
unlikely, within 10 years we'll be on our bended knees begging them to
let us back in.
That'll go down well, won't it? No-one with any pride whatsoever would
tolerate that.
The Todal
2017-08-17 22:02:58 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
If we eventually do leave the EU, which I think is increasingly
unlikely, within 10 years we'll be on our bended knees begging them to
let us back in.
That'll go down well, won't it? No-one with any pride whatsoever would
tolerate that.
Oh, I'd rather die than see our country do that, wouldn't you?

The land of the Spitfire and the Avro Lancaster, the nation that
produced Benny Hill and Stephen Fry and James Dyson and Clive Sinclair,
begging any other nation for favours? Better that we stew in our own
juice and repatriate all our profits to the United States.
Norman Wells
2017-08-18 07:33:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
If we eventually do leave the EU, which I think is increasingly
unlikely, within 10 years we'll be on our bended knees begging them
to let us back in.
That'll go down well, won't it? No-one with any pride whatsoever
would tolerate that.
Oh, I'd rather die than see our country do that, wouldn't you?
The land of the Spitfire and the Avro Lancaster, the nation that
produced Benny Hill and Stephen Fry and James Dyson and Clive Sinclair,
begging any other nation for favours? Better that we stew in our own
juice and repatriate all our profits to the United States.
Better to die on your feet than live on your knees, son!

Even better to throw off the yoke of tyrrany.
Vidcapper
2017-08-18 06:17:11 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by The Todal
If we eventually do leave the EU, which I think is increasingly
unlikely, within 10 years we'll be on our bended knees begging them to
let us back in.
You write more fantasy than JK Rowling!
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
Vidcapper
2017-08-18 06:14:09 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by The Todal
Post by Vidcapper
Post by The Todal
Brexit may currently be in fashion. Many things drift in and out of
fashion. Time to stop consulting the plebs. Time to take back control
and give it to the experts. There are some experts out there. Very few
are in favour of Brexit.
That sort of logic could lead to the abolition of juries.
Would you let a jury decide whether your child should have a dangerous
life-saving operation? Inundate the jury with lots of technical papers
and ask them to figure it out for themselves?
Or would you prefer that the decision be made by a team of doctors who
discuss the various options and pool their expertise?
Post by Vidcapper
Referenda tend to arise when no mainstream party supports a policy
which is popular amongst ordinary voters. Politicians then have to
make a choice between offering one, or seeing the rise of a single
issue parties.
Cameron was foolish and cowardly. He didn't need to offer a referendum.
We could have waited another 20 years and UKIP still wouldn't have won
more than two or three seats in Parliament.
On what are you basing that?

Until Brexit, their support was rising significantly each election, and
we know they had 17.4m potential voters if no referendum had been
forthcoming...
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
Vidcapper
2017-08-16 07:08:54 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by pamela
The Brexit referendum outcome is getting stale and encountering
difficulty in delivering the result intended by its proponents. It
was a poor decision in the first instance. Maybe it's time for a
rethink.
It's only proving awkward because those in power never believed we'd
vote out, and therefore made no contingency plans for dealing with
Brexit. Thus it is their own misunderstanding of the public mood that is
the problem, not the Brexit decision itself.
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
Yellow
2017-08-16 12:07:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <kcSkB.700432$***@fx22.am4>, ***@yahoo.co.uk
says...
Post by Vidcapper
Post by pamela
The Brexit referendum outcome is getting stale and encountering
difficulty in delivering the result intended by its proponents. It
was a poor decision in the first instance. Maybe it's time for a
rethink.
It's only proving awkward because those in power never believed we'd
vote out, and therefore made no contingency plans for dealing with
Brexit. Thus it is their own misunderstanding of the public mood that is
the problem, not the Brexit decision itself.
I agree with that.

For whatever fucked up reason I don't think any of us understand, the
government of the day did not seem to do anything except wait for the
result to come in.
MM
2017-08-08 06:56:09 UTC
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Post by Yellow
And what punishment should there be for the lies told by the likes of
Gina Miller?
What are they?

MM

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harry
2017-08-17 18:11:40 UTC
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Post by MM
Post by Yellow
And what punishment should there be for the lies told by the likes of
Gina Miller?
What are they?
MM
They are people that never ought to be in this country.
MM
2017-08-18 07:49:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 11:11:40 -0700 (PDT), harry
Post by harry
Post by MM
Post by Yellow
And what punishment should there be for the lies told by the likes of
Gina Miller?
What are they?
MM
They are people that never ought to be in this country.
I meant, what lies are told, if you could only read more carefully.

However, since you thought I was referring to remainers, and in
consideration of your comment that they ought never to be in this
country, my question to you is, why not? They are not criminals. So
what other criteria established in Britain would give grounds for not
allowing them here?

MM

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HarryTheHorse
2017-08-20 22:05:22 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by harry
Post by MM
Post by Yellow
And what punishment should there be for the lies told by the likes of
Gina Miller?
What are they?
MM
They are people that never ought to be in this country.
Show some gratitude. Her taxes help to pay for your welfare handouts.
You brexshitters are such ingrates.
Still, on the positive side, after brexshit, we can abolish welfare.
Within six months, nine at the outside, half the brexshit voters will be
dead of starvation.


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