Discussion:
'Extraordinary secrecy' in Whitehall is crippling Brexit plans
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MM
2018-06-10 09:41:22 UTC
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"A damaging culture of 'extraordinary secrecy' inside government is
blighting its ability to plan for Brexit, according to a comprehensive
study of Whitehall.

"Officials are being forced to look at key documents in special
reading rooms, while some papers are confined to the offices of the
most senior civil servants. The installation of a network of secured
computers that can only be accessed by officials with very high
security clearance is also being accelerated, to keep the documents
under wraps.

"Meanwhile, the number of documents being restricted is going 'well
beyond' those containing sensitive details of the government’s EU
negotiations. Even basic planning and guidance documents are kept
locked away, largely inaccessible to civil service teams that need to
see them."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/whitehall-secrecy-cripples-brexit-plans-says-thinktank

Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.

MM
Norman Wells
2018-06-10 10:26:00 UTC
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Post by MM
"A damaging culture of 'extraordinary secrecy' inside government is
blighting its ability to plan for Brexit, according to a comprehensive
study of Whitehall.
"Officials are being forced to look at key documents in special
reading rooms, while some papers are confined to the offices of the
most senior civil servants. The installation of a network of secured
computers that can only be accessed by officials with very high
security clearance is also being accelerated, to keep the documents
under wraps.
"Meanwhile, the number of documents being restricted is going 'well
beyond' those containing sensitive details of the government’s EU
negotiations. Even basic planning and guidance documents are kept
locked away, largely inaccessible to civil service teams that need to
see them."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/whitehall-secrecy-cripples-brexit-plans-says-thinktank
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
It's up to the government what it makes available and what it doesn't.
Just because some are upset because they can't see everything they want
to (including presumably the Guardian) that's no reason to change.
R. Mark Clayton
2018-06-10 12:35:45 UTC
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Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
"A damaging culture of 'extraordinary secrecy' inside government is
blighting its ability to plan for Brexit, according to a comprehensive
study of Whitehall.
"Officials are being forced to look at key documents in special
reading rooms, while some papers are confined to the offices of the
most senior civil servants. The installation of a network of secured
computers that can only be accessed by officials with very high
security clearance is also being accelerated, to keep the documents
under wraps.
"Meanwhile, the number of documents being restricted is going 'well
beyond' those containing sensitive details of the government’s EU
negotiations. Even basic planning and guidance documents are kept
locked away, largely inaccessible to civil service teams that need to
see them."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/whitehall-secrecy-cripples-brexit-plans-says-thinktank
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
It's up to the government what it makes available and what it doesn't.
Just because some are upset because they can't see everything they want
to (including presumably the Guardian) that's no reason to change.
No it is up to parliament.

Obviously key defence details need to be closely guarded secrets.

This nonsense is occurring because the government does not want any leaks about the massive disarray within it and the innate weakness of our position - leaving will inevitably badly damage trade and thereby the economy and replacement deals with countries in other continents will take years to negotiate and never be even half as good as what we have now.
Norman Wells
2018-06-10 16:00:00 UTC
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Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
"A damaging culture of 'extraordinary secrecy' inside government is
blighting its ability to plan for Brexit, according to a comprehensive
study of Whitehall.
"Officials are being forced to look at key documents in special
reading rooms, while some papers are confined to the offices of the
most senior civil servants. The installation of a network of secured
computers that can only be accessed by officials with very high
security clearance is also being accelerated, to keep the documents
under wraps.
"Meanwhile, the number of documents being restricted is going 'well
beyond' those containing sensitive details of the government’s EU
negotiations. Even basic planning and guidance documents are kept
locked away, largely inaccessible to civil service teams that need to
see them."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/whitehall-secrecy-cripples-brexit-plans-says-thinktank
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
It's up to the government what it makes available and what it doesn't.
Just because some are upset because they can't see everything they want
to (including presumably the Guardian) that's no reason to change.
No it is up to parliament.
Obviously key defence details need to be closely guarded secrets.
So, it's not always up to Parliament at all. The government effectively
decides what it will release and what it won't.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
This nonsense is occurring because the government does not want any leaks about the massive disarray within it and the innate weakness of our position - leaving will inevitably badly damage trade and thereby the economy and replacement deals with countries in other continents will take years to negotiate and never be even half as good as what we have now.
Oh, it's all just whinging by those who haven't been allowed to see what
they want to see, but actually have no right to see it. You're the
same. You just want to see it because you believe it will lead the
government into self-incrimination.

Too bad if they don't go along with it.
pamela
2018-06-10 22:08:08 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
"A damaging culture of 'extraordinary secrecy' inside
government is blighting its ability to plan for Brexit,
according to a comprehensive study of Whitehall.
"Officials are being forced to look at key documents in special
reading rooms, while some papers are confined to the offices of
the most senior civil servants. The installation of a network
of secured computers that can only be accessed by officials
with very high security clearance is also being accelerated, to
keep the documents under wraps.
"Meanwhile, the number of documents being restricted is going
'well beyond' those containing sensitive details of the
government’s EU negotiations. Even basic planning and
guidance documents are kept locked away, largely inaccessible
to civil service teams that need to see them."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/whitehall-
secre
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
cy-cripples-brexit-plans-says-thinktank
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
It's up to the government what it makes available and what it
doesn't. Just because some are upset because they can't see
everything they want to (including presumably the Guardian)
that's no reason to change.
No it is up to parliament.
Obviously key defence details need to be closely guarded secrets.
So, it's not always up to Parliament at all. The government
effectively decides what it will release and what it won't.
The government is not above the law and the Freedom of Information
Act applies. If you read the post above, the government is
withholding non-sensitive information.
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
This nonsense is occurring because the government does not want
any leaks about the massive disarray within it and the innate
weakness of our position - leaving will inevitably badly damage
trade and thereby the economy and replacement deals with
countries in other continents will take years to negotiate and
never be even half as good as what we have now.
Oh, it's all just whinging by those who haven't been allowed to
see what they want to see, but actually have no right to see it.
Under FOI all documents are available other than those which fall
into various exemptions. It's called open government.
Post by Norman Wells
You're the same. You just want to see it because you believe it
will lead the government into self-incrimination.
If the government has screwed up then the public should be told.
Norman Wells
2018-06-11 07:28:47 UTC
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Permalink
Raw Message
Post by pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
"A damaging culture of 'extraordinary secrecy' inside
government is blighting its ability to plan for Brexit,
according to a comprehensive study of Whitehall.
"Officials are being forced to look at key documents in special
reading rooms, while some papers are confined to the offices of
the most senior civil servants. The installation of a network
of secured computers that can only be accessed by officials
with very high security clearance is also being accelerated, to
keep the documents under wraps.
"Meanwhile, the number of documents being restricted is going
'well beyond' those containing sensitive details of the
government’s EU negotiations. Even basic planning and
guidance documents are kept locked away, largely inaccessible
to civil service teams that need to see them."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/whitehall-
secre
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
cy-cripples-brexit-plans-says-thinktank
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
It's up to the government what it makes available and what it
doesn't. Just because some are upset because they can't see
everything they want to (including presumably the Guardian)
that's no reason to change.
No it is up to parliament.
Obviously key defence details need to be closely guarded secrets.
So, it's not always up to Parliament at all. The government
effectively decides what it will release and what it won't.
The government is not above the law and the Freedom of Information
Act applies. If you read the post above, the government is
withholding non-sensitive information.
Then put in a request to see it. Tell us when you have. And don't
forget to tell us the reason it was rejected.

Off you go.
Post by pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
This nonsense is occurring because the government does not want
any leaks about the massive disarray within it and the innate
weakness of our position - leaving will inevitably badly damage
trade and thereby the economy and replacement deals with
countries in other continents will take years to negotiate and
never be even half as good as what we have now.
Oh, it's all just whinging by those who haven't been allowed to
see what they want to see, but actually have no right to see it.
Under FOI all documents are available other than those which fall
into various exemptions. It's called open government.
Post by Norman Wells
You're the same. You just want to see it because you believe it
will lead the government into self-incrimination.
If the government has screwed up then the public should be told.
You're like a child screaming and crying because it's been denied
something. It's very unbecoming.
pamela
2018-06-11 14:23:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
"A damaging culture of 'extraordinary secrecy' inside
government is blighting its ability to plan for Brexit,
according to a comprehensive study of Whitehall.
"Officials are being forced to look at key documents in
special reading rooms, while some papers are confined to the
offices of the most senior civil servants. The installation
of a network of secured computers that can only be accessed
by officials with very high security clearance is also being
accelerated, to keep the documents under wraps.
"Meanwhile, the number of documents being restricted is going
'well beyond' those containing sensitive details of the
government’s EU negotiations. Even basic planning and
guidance documents are kept locked away, largely inaccessible
to civil service teams that need to see them."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/whitehall-
secre
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
cy-cripples-brexit-plans-says-thinktank
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
It's up to the government what it makes available and what it
doesn't. Just because some are upset because they can't see
everything they want to (including presumably the Guardian)
that's no reason to change.
No it is up to parliament.
Obviously key defence details need to be closely guarded
secrets.
So, it's not always up to Parliament at all. The government
effectively decides what it will release and what it won't.
The government is not above the law and the Freedom of
Information Act applies. If you read the post above, the
government is withholding non-sensitive information.
Then put in a request to see it. Tell us when you have. And
don't forget to tell us the reason it was rejected.
Norman, you may be experiencing memory troubles again and don't
recall what you wrote. Your error is you didn't know the public has
right to this information. You wrote this:

"So, it's not always up to Parliament at all. The government
effectively decides what it will release and what it won't."

FOI has been discussed here several times before. Don't you
remember?
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
This nonsense is occurring because the government does not want
any leaks about the massive disarray within it and the innate
weakness of our position - leaving will inevitably badly damage
trade and thereby the economy and replacement deals with
countries in other continents will take years to negotiate and
never be even half as good as what we have now.
Oh, it's all just whinging by those who haven't been allowed to
see what they want to see, but actually have no right to see it.
Under FOI all documents are available other than those which fall
into various exemptions. It's called open government.
Post by Norman Wells
You're the same. You just want to see it because you believe it
will lead the government into self-incrimination.
If the government has screwed up then the public should be told.
You're like a child screaming and crying because it's been denied
something. It's very unbecoming.
That's one way of fobbing off an FOI inquiry especially as it may
reveal information which embarasses all those in support of Brexit.
Norman Wells
2018-06-11 14:57:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
"A damaging culture of 'extraordinary secrecy' inside
government is blighting its ability to plan for Brexit,
according to a comprehensive study of Whitehall.
"Officials are being forced to look at key documents in
special reading rooms, while some papers are confined to the
offices of the most senior civil servants. The installation
of a network of secured computers that can only be accessed
by officials with very high security clearance is also being
accelerated, to keep the documents under wraps.
"Meanwhile, the number of documents being restricted is going
'well beyond' those containing sensitive details of the
government’s EU negotiations. Even basic planning and
guidance documents are kept locked away, largely inaccessible
to civil service teams that need to see them."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/whitehall-
secre
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
cy-cripples-brexit-plans-says-thinktank
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
It's up to the government what it makes available and what it
doesn't. Just because some are upset because they can't see
everything they want to (including presumably the Guardian)
that's no reason to change.
No it is up to parliament.
Obviously key defence details need to be closely guarded
secrets.
So, it's not always up to Parliament at all. The government
effectively decides what it will release and what it won't.
The government is not above the law and the Freedom of
Information Act applies. If you read the post above, the
government is withholding non-sensitive information.
Then put in a request to see it. Tell us when you have. And
don't forget to tell us the reason it was rejected.
Norman, you may be experiencing memory troubles again and don't
recall what you wrote. Your error is you didn't know the public has
"So, it's not always up to Parliament at all. The government
effectively decides what it will release and what it won't."
FOI has been discussed here several times before. Don't you
remember?
Then there's nothing stopping you. Put in a request to see it. Tell us
when you have. And don't forget to tell us the reason it was rejected.
R. Mark Clayton
2018-06-11 15:56:03 UTC
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Raw Message
SNIP
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
Lots of embarrassing things. Disclosure of real secrets by contrast causes insecurity and death.
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
It's up to the government what it makes available and what it doesn't.
Just because some are upset because they can't see everything they want
to (including presumably the Guardian) that's no reason to change.
No it is up to parliament.
Obviously key defence details need to be closely guarded secrets.
So, it's not always up to Parliament at all.
Yes it is - Defence of the Realm Act, Official Secrets Act et al.
Post by Norman Wells
The government effectively decides what it will release and what it won't.
Usually civil servants, but this level of secrecy is normally reserved for nuclear installations - (Winfrith, Aldermaston, ) and operational control - (HMS Warrior in Northwood - oops!)
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
This nonsense is occurring because the government does not want any leaks about the massive disarray within it and the innate weakness of our position - leaving will inevitably badly damage trade and thereby the economy and replacement deals with countries in other continents will take years to negotiate and never be even half as good as what we have now.
Oh, it's all just whinging by those who haven't been allowed to see what
they want to see, but actually have no right to see it. You're the
same. You just want to see it because you believe it will lead the
government into self-incrimination.
Too bad if they don't go along with it.
It is a shame - I agree - and shameful.
Norman Wells
2018-06-11 17:31:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
SNIP
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
Lots of embarrassing things. Disclosure of real secrets by contrast causes insecurity and death.
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
It's up to the government what it makes available and what it doesn't.
Just because some are upset because they can't see everything they want
to (including presumably the Guardian) that's no reason to change.
No it is up to parliament.
Obviously key defence details need to be closely guarded secrets.
So, it's not always up to Parliament at all.
Yes it is - Defence of the Realm Act, Official Secrets Act et al.
Post by Norman Wells
The government effectively decides what it will release and what it won't.
Usually civil servants, but this level of secrecy is normally reserved for nuclear installations - (Winfrith, Aldermaston, ) and operational control - (HMS Warrior in Northwood - oops!)
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
This nonsense is occurring because the government does not want any leaks about the massive disarray within it and the innate weakness of our position - leaving will inevitably badly damage trade and thereby the economy and replacement deals with countries in other continents will take years to negotiate and never be even half as good as what we have now.
Oh, it's all just whinging by those who haven't been allowed to see what
they want to see, but actually have no right to see it. You're the
same. You just want to see it because you believe it will lead the
government into self-incrimination.
Too bad if they don't go along with it.
It is a shame - I agree - and shameful.
It's open to you to put in a freedom of information request if you want.
Why don't you?
pamela
2018-06-11 18:38:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
SNIP
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
Lots of embarrassing things. Disclosure of real secrets by
contrast causes insecurity and death.
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
It's up to the government what it makes available and what it
doesn't. Just because some are upset because they can't see
everything they want to (including presumably the Guardian)
that's no reason to change.
No it is up to parliament.
Obviously key defence details need to be closely guarded
secrets.
So, it's not always up to Parliament at all.
Yes it is - Defence of the Realm Act, Official Secrets Act et al.
Post by Norman Wells
The government effectively decides what it will release and what it won't.
Usually civil servants, but this level of secrecy is normally
reserved for nuclear installations - (Winfrith, Aldermaston, )
and operational control - (HMS Warrior in Northwood - oops!)
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
This nonsense is occurring because the government does not want
any leaks about the massive disarray within it and the innate
weakness of our position - leaving will inevitably badly damage
trade and thereby the economy and replacement deals with
countries in other continents will take years to negotiate and
never be even half as good as what we have now.
Oh, it's all just whinging by those who haven't been allowed to
see what they want to see, but actually have no right to see it.
You're the same. You just want to see it because you believe
it will lead the government into self-incrimination.
Too bad if they don't go along with it.
It is a shame - I agree - and shameful.
It's open to you to put in a freedom of information request if you
want. Why don't you?
Why should Mark put in a Freedom of Information request when someone
else wants the information and is being met by excessive secrecy
from the government? What does Mark have to do with it?
Norman Wells
2018-06-11 21:43:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
SNIP
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
Lots of embarrassing things. Disclosure of real secrets by
contrast causes insecurity and death.
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
It's up to the government what it makes available and what it
doesn't. Just because some are upset because they can't see
everything they want to (including presumably the Guardian)
that's no reason to change.
No it is up to parliament.
Obviously key defence details need to be closely guarded
secrets.
So, it's not always up to Parliament at all.
Yes it is - Defence of the Realm Act, Official Secrets Act et al.
Post by Norman Wells
The government effectively decides what it will release and what it won't.
Usually civil servants, but this level of secrecy is normally
reserved for nuclear installations - (Winfrith, Aldermaston, )
and operational control - (HMS Warrior in Northwood - oops!)
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
This nonsense is occurring because the government does not want
any leaks about the massive disarray within it and the innate
weakness of our position - leaving will inevitably badly damage
trade and thereby the economy and replacement deals with
countries in other continents will take years to negotiate and
never be even half as good as what we have now.
Oh, it's all just whinging by those who haven't been allowed to
see what they want to see, but actually have no right to see it.
You're the same. You just want to see it because you believe
it will lead the government into self-incrimination.
Too bad if they don't go along with it.
It is a shame - I agree - and shameful.
It's open to you to put in a freedom of information request if you
want. Why don't you?
Why should Mark put in a Freedom of Information request when someone
else wants the information and is being met by excessive secrecy
from the government? What does Mark have to do with it?
If you're interested, you can. If you're not, you needn't. It's up to
you. But please don't affect synthetic concern for others when even
they won't do anything to help themselves. That's just playing "Ain't
it awful".
R. Mark Clayton
2018-06-12 10:35:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
SNIP
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
Lots of embarrassing things. Disclosure of real secrets by
contrast causes insecurity and death.
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
It's up to the government what it makes available and what it
doesn't. Just because some are upset because they can't see
everything they want to (including presumably the Guardian)
that's no reason to change.
No it is up to parliament.
Obviously key defence details need to be closely guarded
secrets.
So, it's not always up to Parliament at all.
Yes it is - Defence of the Realm Act, Official Secrets Act et al.
Post by Norman Wells
The government effectively decides what it will release and what it won't.
Usually civil servants, but this level of secrecy is normally
reserved for nuclear installations - (Winfrith, Aldermaston, )
and operational control - (HMS Warrior in Northwood - oops!)
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
This nonsense is occurring because the government does not want
any leaks about the massive disarray within it and the innate
weakness of our position - leaving will inevitably badly damage
trade and thereby the economy and replacement deals with
countries in other continents will take years to negotiate and
never be even half as good as what we have now.
Oh, it's all just whinging by those who haven't been allowed to
see what they want to see, but actually have no right to see it.
You're the same. You just want to see it because you believe
it will lead the government into self-incrimination.
Too bad if they don't go along with it.
It is a shame - I agree - and shameful.
It's open to you to put in a freedom of information request if you
want. Why don't you?
Why should Mark put in a Freedom of Information request when someone
else wants the information and is being met by excessive secrecy
from the government? What does Mark have to do with it?
If you're interested, you can. If you're not, you needn't. It's up to
you. But please don't affect synthetic concern for others when even
they won't do anything to help themselves. That's just playing "Ain't
it awful".
If members of parliament and even Privy Councillors* are being denied access it would be extremely naive to suppose they might release it to a mere member of the public.

* those entitled by HM to be privy to the crown's secrets
R. Mark Clayton
2018-06-12 10:33:36 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
SNIP
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
Lots of embarrassing things. Disclosure of real secrets by contrast causes insecurity and death.
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
It's up to the government what it makes available and what it doesn't.
Just because some are upset because they can't see everything they want
to (including presumably the Guardian) that's no reason to change.
No it is up to parliament.
Obviously key defence details need to be closely guarded secrets.
So, it's not always up to Parliament at all.
Yes it is - Defence of the Realm Act, Official Secrets Act et al.
Post by Norman Wells
The government effectively decides what it will release and what it won't.
Usually civil servants, but this level of secrecy is normally reserved for nuclear installations - (Winfrith, Aldermaston, ) and operational control - (HMS Warrior in Northwood - oops!)
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
This nonsense is occurring because the government does not want any leaks about the massive disarray within it and the innate weakness of our position - leaving will inevitably badly damage trade and thereby the economy and replacement deals with countries in other continents will take years to negotiate and never be even half as good as what we have now.
Oh, it's all just whinging by those who haven't been allowed to see what
they want to see, but actually have no right to see it. You're the
same. You just want to see it because you believe it will lead the
government into self-incrimination.
Too bad if they don't go along with it.
It is a shame - I agree - and shameful.
It's open to you to put in a freedom of information request if you want.
Why don't you?
1. It will leak anyway.
2. They will probably decline.
3. or delay until it is too late or published anyway.
4. all this cloak and dagger stuff makes the government look underhand over Brexit (because it is), why should I help them dispel the bad smell about the whole process?
5. I am sure there is someone somewhere whose day job it is to generate these (journalist, political researcher etc.).
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
2018-06-11 18:06:40 UTC
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Post by R. Mark Clayton
"A damaging culture of 'extraordinary secrecy' inside government is=
blighting its ability to plan for Brexit, according to a comprehens=
ive
Post by R. Mark Clayton
study of Whitehall.
"Officials are being forced to look at key documents in special
reading rooms, while some papers are confined to the offices of the=
most senior civil servants. The installation of a network of secure=
d
Post by R. Mark Clayton
computers that can only be accessed by officials with very high
security clearance is also being accelerated, to keep the documents=
under wraps.
"Meanwhile, the number of documents being restricted is going 'well=
beyond' those containing sensitive details of the government=E2=80=99=
s EU
Post by R. Mark Clayton
negotiations. Even basic planning and guidance documents are kept
locked away, largely inaccessible to civil service teams that need =
to
Post by R. Mark Clayton
see them."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/whitehall-secrecy-=
cripples-brexit-plans-says-thinktank
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
It's up to the government what it makes available and what it doesn'=
t.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Just because some are upset because they can't see everything they w=
ant
Post by R. Mark Clayton
to (including presumably the Guardian) that's no reason to change.
No it is up to parliament.
Obviously key defence details need to be closely guarded secrets.
So, it's not always up to Parliament at all. The government effective=
ly =
decides what it will release and what it won't.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
This nonsense is occurring because the government does not want any =
leaks about the massive disarray within it and the innate weakness of=
=
Post by R. Mark Clayton
our position - leaving will inevitably badly damage trade and thereby=
=
Post by R. Mark Clayton
the economy and replacement deals with countries in other continents =
=
Post by R. Mark Clayton
will take years to negotiate and never be even half as good as what w=
e =
Post by R. Mark Clayton
have now.
Oh, it's all just whinging by those who haven't been allowed to see wh=
at =
they want to see, but actually have no right to see it. You're the =
same. You just want to see it because you believe it will lead the =
government into self-incrimination.
Too bad if they don't go along with it.
Why do you think it's ok for your government to do things without you =

knowing?
Norman Wells
2018-06-11 18:27:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
"A damaging culture of 'extraordinary secrecy' inside government is
blighting its ability to plan for Brexit, according to a comprehensive
study of Whitehall.
"Officials are being forced to look at key documents in special
reading rooms, while some papers are confined to the offices of the
most senior civil servants. The installation of a network of secured
computers that can only be accessed by officials with very high
security clearance is also being accelerated, to keep the documents
under wraps.
"Meanwhile, the number of documents being restricted is going 'well
beyond' those containing sensitive details of the government’s EU
negotiations. Even basic planning and guidance documents are kept
locked away, largely inaccessible to civil service teams that need to
see them."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/whitehall-secrecy-cripples-brexit-plans-says-thinktank
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
It's up to the government what it makes available and what it doesn't.
Just because some are upset because they can't see everything they want
to (including presumably the Guardian) that's no reason to change.
 No it is up to parliament.
 Obviously key defence details need to be closely guarded secrets.
So, it's not always up to Parliament at all.  The government
effectively decides what it will release and what it won't.
This nonsense is occurring because the government does not want any
leaks about the massive disarray within it and the innate weakness of
our position - leaving will inevitably badly damage trade and thereby
the economy and replacement deals with countries in other continents
will take years to negotiate and never be even half as good as what
we have now.
Oh, it's all just whinging by those who haven't been allowed to see
what they want to see, but actually have no right to see it.  You're
the same.  You just want to see it because you believe it will lead
the government into self-incrimination.
Too bad if they don't go along with it.
Why do you think it's ok for your government to do things without you
knowing?
There are some secrets it needs to keep. There are some that would
damage its negotiating position if they were known by the other side.
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
2018-06-11 18:35:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
"A damaging culture of 'extraordinary secrecy' inside government =
is
Post by R. Mark Clayton
blighting its ability to plan for Brexit, according to a =
comprehensive
study of Whitehall.
"Officials are being forced to look at key documents in special
reading rooms, while some papers are confined to the offices of t=
he
Post by R. Mark Clayton
most senior civil servants. The installation of a network of secu=
red
Post by R. Mark Clayton
computers that can only be accessed by officials with very high
security clearance is also being accelerated, to keep the documen=
ts
Post by R. Mark Clayton
under wraps.
"Meanwhile, the number of documents being restricted is going 'we=
ll
Post by R. Mark Clayton
beyond' those containing sensitive details of the government=E2=80=
=99s EU
Post by R. Mark Clayton
negotiations. Even basic planning and guidance documents are kept=
locked away, largely inaccessible to civil service teams that nee=
d =
Post by R. Mark Clayton
to
see them."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/whitehall-secrec=
y-cripples-brexit-plans-says-thinktank =
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
It's up to the government what it makes available and what it =
doesn't.
Just because some are upset because they can't see everything they=
=
Post by R. Mark Clayton
want
to (including presumably the Guardian) that's no reason to change.=
No it is up to parliament.
Obviously key defence details need to be closely guarded secrets.
So, it's not always up to Parliament at all. The government =
effectively decides what it will release and what it won't.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
This nonsense is occurring because the government does not want any=
=
Post by R. Mark Clayton
leaks about the massive disarray within it and the innate weakness =
of =
Post by R. Mark Clayton
our position - leaving will inevitably badly damage trade and there=
by =
Post by R. Mark Clayton
the economy and replacement deals with countries in other continent=
s =
Post by R. Mark Clayton
will take years to negotiate and never be even half as good as what=
=
Post by R. Mark Clayton
we have now.
Oh, it's all just whinging by those who haven't been allowed to see =
=
what they want to see, but actually have no right to see it. You're=
=
the same. You just want to see it because you believe it will lead =
=
the government into self-incrimination.
Too bad if they don't go along with it.
Why do you think it's ok for your government to do things without yo=
u =
knowing?
There are some secrets it needs to keep. There are some that would =
damage its negotiating position if they were known by the other side.
I disagree entirely. Any secrets are as bad as lies.
Norman Wells
2018-06-11 18:39:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
"A damaging culture of 'extraordinary secrecy' inside government is
blighting its ability to plan for Brexit, according to a
comprehensive
study of Whitehall.
"Officials are being forced to look at key documents in special
reading rooms, while some papers are confined to the offices of the
most senior civil servants. The installation of a network of secured
computers that can only be accessed by officials with very high
security clearance is also being accelerated, to keep the documents
under wraps.
"Meanwhile, the number of documents being restricted is going 'well
beyond' those containing sensitive details of the government’s EU
negotiations. Even basic planning and guidance documents are kept
locked away, largely inaccessible to civil service teams that need to
see them."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/whitehall-secrecy-cripples-brexit-plans-says-thinktank
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
It's up to the government what it makes available and what it doesn't.
Just because some are upset because they can't see everything they want
to (including presumably the Guardian) that's no reason to change.
 No it is up to parliament.
 Obviously key defence details need to be closely guarded secrets.
So, it's not always up to Parliament at all.  The government
effectively decides what it will release and what it won't.
This nonsense is occurring because the government does not want any
leaks about the massive disarray within it and the innate weakness
of our position - leaving will inevitably badly damage trade and
thereby the economy and replacement deals with countries in other
continents will take years to negotiate and never be even half as
good as what we have now.
Oh, it's all just whinging by those who haven't been allowed to see
what they want to see, but actually have no right to see it.  You're
the same.  You just want to see it because you believe it will lead
the government into self-incrimination.
Too bad if they don't go along with it.
 Why do you think it's ok for your government to do things without
you knowing?
There are some secrets it needs to keep.  There are some that would
damage its negotiating position if they were known by the other side.
I disagree entirely.  Any secrets are as bad as lies.
Too bad. You're wrong.
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
2018-06-11 18:44:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
=
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Post by R. Mark Clayton
"A damaging culture of 'extraordinary secrecy' inside governmen=
t =
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Post by R. Mark Clayton
is
blighting its ability to plan for Brexit, according to a =
comprehensive
study of Whitehall.
"Officials are being forced to look at key documents in special=
reading rooms, while some papers are confined to the offices of=
=
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Post by R. Mark Clayton
the
most senior civil servants. The installation of a network of =
secured
computers that can only be accessed by officials with very high=
security clearance is also being accelerated, to keep the =
documents
under wraps.
"Meanwhile, the number of documents being restricted is going =
'well
beyond' those containing sensitive details of the government=E2=
=80=99s EU
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Post by R. Mark Clayton
negotiations. Even basic planning and guidance documents are ke=
pt
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Post by R. Mark Clayton
locked away, largely inaccessible to civil service teams that =
need to
see them."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/whitehall-secr=
ecy-cripples-brexit-plans-says-thinktank =
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
It's up to the government what it makes available and what it =
doesn't.
Just because some are upset because they can't see everything th=
ey =
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Post by R. Mark Clayton
want
to (including presumably the Guardian) that's no reason to chang=
e.
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Post by R. Mark Clayton
No it is up to parliament.
Obviously key defence details need to be closely guarded secrets=
.
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
So, it's not always up to Parliament at all. The government =
effectively decides what it will release and what it won't.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
This nonsense is occurring because the government does not want a=
ny =
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Post by R. Mark Clayton
leaks about the massive disarray within it and the innate weaknes=
s =
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Post by R. Mark Clayton
of our position - leaving will inevitably badly damage trade and =
=
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Post by R. Mark Clayton
thereby the economy and replacement deals with countries in other=
=
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Post by R. Mark Clayton
continents will take years to negotiate and never be even half as=
=
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Post by R. Mark Clayton
good as what we have now.
Oh, it's all just whinging by those who haven't been allowed to se=
e =
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
what they want to see, but actually have no right to see it. You'=
re =
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
the same. You just want to see it because you believe it will lea=
d =
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
the government into self-incrimination.
Too bad if they don't go along with it.
Why do you think it's ok for your government to do things without =
=
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
you knowing?
There are some secrets it needs to keep. There are some that would =
=
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
damage its negotiating position if they were known by the other side=
.
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
I disagree entirely. Any secrets are as bad as lies.
Too bad. You're wrong.
No, you're wrong. You're siding with secrecy, spies, and all that James=
=

Bond shit that does not belong in the real world.
The Peeler
2018-06-11 19:03:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 19:39:22 +0100, Norman Wells, the notorious,
Post by Norman Wells
I disagree entirely.  Any secrets are as bad as lies.
Too bad. You're wrong.
He's not wrong, you idiot! He's a TROLL! <tsk>
The Peeler
2018-06-11 19:14:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 19:27:05 +0100, Norman Wells, the notorious,
Post by Norman Wells
There are some secrets it needs to keep. There are some that would
damage its negotiating position if they were known by the other side.
Is there not ONE stupid bait by the abnormal Scottish sow that you will NOT
take, you senile idiot? LOL
Fredxx
2018-06-10 10:43:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by MM
"A damaging culture of 'extraordinary secrecy' inside government is
blighting its ability to plan for Brexit, according to a comprehensive
study of Whitehall.
"Officials are being forced to look at key documents in special
reading rooms, while some papers are confined to the offices of the
most senior civil servants. The installation of a network of secured
computers that can only be accessed by officials with very high
security clearance is also being accelerated, to keep the documents
under wraps.
"Meanwhile, the number of documents being restricted is going 'well
beyond' those containing sensitive details of the government’s EU
negotiations. Even basic planning and guidance documents are kept
locked away, largely inaccessible to civil service teams that need to
see them."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/whitehall-secrecy-cripples-brexit-plans-says-thinktank
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
One can say the same about MI5 and our Nuclear secrets.

Some Remoaners would prefer the EU negotiators to see our hand and sell
out this country.

For once, I believe this approach is best, and will lead to the best
outcome in spite of those trying their best to thwart the process.
pamela
2018-06-10 22:03:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by MM
"A damaging culture of 'extraordinary secrecy' inside government
is blighting its ability to plan for Brexit, according to a
comprehensive study of Whitehall.
"Officials are being forced to look at key documents in special
reading rooms, while some papers are confined to the offices of
the most senior civil servants. The installation of a network of
secured computers that can only be accessed by officials with very
high security clearance is also being accelerated, to keep the
documents under wraps.
"Meanwhile, the number of documents being restricted is going
'well beyond' those containing sensitive details of the
government’s EU negotiations. Even basic planning and guidance
documents are kept locked away, largely inaccessible to civil
service teams that need to see them."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/whitehall-secrecy-
cripples-brexit-plans-says-thinktank
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
MM
David Davis started a lot of this hush-hush stuff when he wouldn't
release the industry sector impact analyses. At first he even
claimed they didn't exist.

I also recall there was some weird idea put about that the public
should not be allowed to know what was being negotiated on their
behalf in case it helped the EU. We were supposed to compromise our
right to know in the name of something a minority of the electorate
voted for! What nonsense.

Brexiteers seem to have much to hide.
Norman Wells
2018-06-10 22:14:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by pamela
Post by MM
"A damaging culture of 'extraordinary secrecy' inside government
is blighting its ability to plan for Brexit, according to a
comprehensive study of Whitehall.
"Officials are being forced to look at key documents in special
reading rooms, while some papers are confined to the offices of
the most senior civil servants. The installation of a network of
secured computers that can only be accessed by officials with very
high security clearance is also being accelerated, to keep the
documents under wraps.
"Meanwhile, the number of documents being restricted is going
'well beyond' those containing sensitive details of the
government’s EU negotiations. Even basic planning and guidance
documents are kept locked away, largely inaccessible to civil
service teams that need to see them."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/whitehall-secrecy-
cripples-brexit-plans-says-thinktank
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
MM
David Davis started a lot of this hush-hush stuff when he wouldn't
release the industry sector impact analyses. At first he even
claimed they didn't exist.
I also recall there was some weird idea put about that the public
should not be allowed to know what was being negotiated on their
behalf in case it helped the EU. We were supposed to compromise our
right to know
What makes you think you have a 'right to know' anything?

Where is that enshrined in law?
Post by pamela
in the name of something a minority of the electorate
voted for! What nonsense.
Yes, that *is* nonsense. According to the Electoral Commission, we
elected to leave the EU, and by a majority of 1,269,501.
Post by pamela
Brexiteers seem to have much to hide.
Negotiators do not reveal their hand. It's Negotiation 101.
pamela
2018-06-11 00:22:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Post by MM
"A damaging culture of 'extraordinary secrecy' inside government
is blighting its ability to plan for Brexit, according to a
comprehensive study of Whitehall.
"Officials are being forced to look at key documents in special
reading rooms, while some papers are confined to the offices of
the most senior civil servants. The installation of a network of
secured computers that can only be accessed by officials with
very high security clearance is also being accelerated, to keep
the documents under wraps.
"Meanwhile, the number of documents being restricted is going
'well beyond' those containing sensitive details of the
government’s EU negotiations. Even basic planning and guidance
documents are kept locked away, largely inaccessible to civil
service teams that need to see them."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/whitehall-
secrec
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Post by MM
y- cripples-brexit-plans-says-thinktank
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
MM
David Davis started a lot of this hush-hush stuff when he
wouldn't release the industry sector impact analyses. At first
he even claimed they didn't exist.
I also recall there was some weird idea put about that the public
should not be allowed to know what was being negotiated on their
behalf in case it helped the EU. We were supposed to compromise
our right to know
What makes you think you have a 'right to know' anything?
Where is that enshrined in law?
Freedom of Information Act 2000.
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
in the name of something a minority of the electorate voted for!
What nonsense.
Yes, that *is* nonsense. According to the Electoral Commission,
we elected to leave the EU, and by a majority of 1,269,501.
17,410,742 voted Leave from an electorate of 46,500,001, which comes
to 37%. That is a minority of the electorate whch is exactly what I
said. I worte it in simple English.
Norman Wells
2018-06-11 07:25:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by MM
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Post by MM
"A damaging culture of 'extraordinary secrecy' inside government
is blighting its ability to plan for Brexit, according to a
comprehensive study of Whitehall.
"Officials are being forced to look at key documents in special
reading rooms, while some papers are confined to the offices of
the most senior civil servants. The installation of a network of
secured computers that can only be accessed by officials with
very high security clearance is also being accelerated, to keep
the documents under wraps.
"Meanwhile, the number of documents being restricted is going
'well beyond' those containing sensitive details of the
government’s EU negotiations. Even basic planning and guidance
documents are kept locked away, largely inaccessible to civil
service teams that need to see them."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/whitehall-
secrec
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Post by MM
y- cripples-brexit-plans-says-thinktank
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
MM
David Davis started a lot of this hush-hush stuff when he
wouldn't release the industry sector impact analyses. At first
he even claimed they didn't exist.
I also recall there was some weird idea put about that the public
should not be allowed to know what was being negotiated on their
behalf in case it helped the EU. We were supposed to compromise
our right to know
What makes you think you have a 'right to know' anything?
Where is that enshrined in law?
Freedom of Information Act 2000.
Which contains Sections 21 to 44 all about exceptions. You can put in a
request by all means, but it won't be accepted. One or more of those
exceptions is bound to be invoked.
Post by MM
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
in the name of something a minority of the electorate voted for!
What nonsense.
Yes, that *is* nonsense. According to the Electoral Commission,
we elected to leave the EU, and by a majority of 1,269,501.
17,410,742 voted Leave from an electorate of 46,500,001, which comes
to 37%. That is a minority of the electorate whch is exactly what I
said. I worte it in simple English.
Yawn, yawn.
pamela
2018-06-11 14:25:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Post by MM
"A damaging culture of 'extraordinary secrecy' inside
government is blighting its ability to plan for Brexit,
according to a comprehensive study of Whitehall.
"Officials are being forced to look at key documents in
special reading rooms, while some papers are confined to the
offices of the most senior civil servants. The installation of
a network of secured computers that can only be accessed by
officials with very high security clearance is also being
accelerated, to keep the documents under wraps.
"Meanwhile, the number of documents being restricted is going
'well beyond' those containing sensitive details of the
government’s EU negotiations. Even basic planning and
guidance documents are kept locked away, largely inaccessible
to civil service teams that need to see them."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/whitehall-
secrec
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Post by MM
y- cripples-brexit-plans-says-thinktank
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
MM
David Davis started a lot of this hush-hush stuff when he
wouldn't release the industry sector impact analyses. At first
he even claimed they didn't exist.
I also recall there was some weird idea put about that the
public should not be allowed to know what was being negotiated
on their behalf in case it helped the EU. We were supposed to
compromise our right to know
What makes you think you have a 'right to know' anything?
Where is that enshrined in law?
Freedom of Information Act 2000.
Which contains Sections 21 to 44 all about exceptions. You can
put in a request by all means, but it won't be accepted. One or
more of those exceptions is bound to be invoked.
The government is not above the law and unreasonable reliance on FOI
exceptions can be challenged. Ask Tony Blair.
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
in the name of something a minority of the electorate voted
for! What nonsense.
Yes, that *is* nonsense. According to the Electoral Commission,
we elected to leave the EU, and by a majority of 1,269,501.
17,410,742 voted Leave from an electorate of 46,500,001, which
comes to 37%. That is a minority of the electorate whch is
exactly what I said. I wrote it in simple English.
That really shows it is a minority who voted Brexit.
I know. I wrote it clearly enough.
Norman Wells
2018-06-11 15:05:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Post by MM
"A damaging culture of 'extraordinary secrecy' inside
government is blighting its ability to plan for Brexit,
according to a comprehensive study of Whitehall.
"Officials are being forced to look at key documents in
special reading rooms, while some papers are confined to the
offices of the most senior civil servants. The installation of
a network of secured computers that can only be accessed by
officials with very high security clearance is also being
accelerated, to keep the documents under wraps.
"Meanwhile, the number of documents being restricted is going
'well beyond' those containing sensitive details of the
government’s EU negotiations. Even basic planning and
guidance documents are kept locked away, largely inaccessible
to civil service teams that need to see them."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/whitehall-
secrec
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Post by MM
y- cripples-brexit-plans-says-thinktank
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
MM
David Davis started a lot of this hush-hush stuff when he
wouldn't release the industry sector impact analyses. At first
he even claimed they didn't exist.
I also recall there was some weird idea put about that the
public should not be allowed to know what was being negotiated
on their behalf in case it helped the EU. We were supposed to
compromise our right to know
What makes you think you have a 'right to know' anything?
Where is that enshrined in law?
Freedom of Information Act 2000.
Which contains Sections 21 to 44 all about exceptions. You can
put in a request by all means, but it won't be accepted. One or
more of those exceptions is bound to be invoked.
The government is not above the law and unreasonable reliance on FOI
exceptions can be challenged. Ask Tony Blair.
Then there's nothing to stop you putting in your own freedom of
information request. Are you going to or not? And if not, why not?
Post by pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
in the name of something a minority of the electorate voted
for! What nonsense.
Yes, that *is* nonsense. According to the Electoral Commission,
we elected to leave the EU, and by a majority of 1,269,501.
17,410,742 voted Leave from an electorate of 46,500,001, which
comes to 37%. That is a minority of the electorate whch is
exactly what I said. I wrote it in simple English.
That really shows it is a minority who voted Brexit.
I know. I wrote it clearly enough.
But you're replying to something I didn't write, and which you must have
written yourself.

Very odd. Very sad.
pamela
2018-06-11 16:49:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Post by MM
"A damaging culture of 'extraordinary secrecy' inside
government is blighting its ability to plan for Brexit,
according to a comprehensive study of Whitehall.
"Officials are being forced to look at key documents in
special reading rooms, while some papers are confined to the
offices of the most senior civil servants. The installation
of a network of secured computers that can only be accessed
by officials with very high security clearance is also being
accelerated, to keep the documents under wraps.
"Meanwhile, the number of documents being restricted is
going 'well beyond' those containing sensitive details of
the government’s EU negotiations. Even
basic planning and guidance documents are kept locked away,
largely inaccessible to civil service teams that need to see
them."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/whitehall-
secrec
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Post by MM
y- cripples-brexit-plans-says-thinktank
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
MM
David Davis started a lot of this hush-hush stuff when he
wouldn't release the industry sector impact analyses. At
first he even claimed they didn't exist.
I also recall there was some weird idea put about that the
public should not be allowed to know what was being
negotiated on their behalf in case it helped the EU. We were
supposed to compromise our right to know
What makes you think you have a 'right to know' anything?
Where is that enshrined in law?
Freedom of Information Act 2000.
Which contains Sections 21 to 44 all about exceptions. You can
put in a request by all means, but it won't be accepted. One or
more of those exceptions is bound to be invoked.
The government is not above the law and unreasonable reliance on
FOI exceptions can be challenged. Ask Tony Blair.
Then there's nothing to stop you putting in your own freedom of
information request. Are you going to or not? And if not, why not?
Post by pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
in the name of something a minority of the electorate voted
for! What nonsense.
Yes, that *is* nonsense. According to the Electoral
Commission, we elected to leave the EU, and by a majority of
1,269,501.
17,410,742 voted Leave from an electorate of 46,500,001, which
comes to 37%. That is a minority of the electorate whch is
exactly what I said. I wrote it in simple English.
That really shows it is a minority who voted Brexit.
I know. I wrote it clearly enough.
But you're replying to something I didn't write, and which you
must have written yourself.
Very odd. Very sad.
Nice attempt at playing to the gallery, Norman. Your rush to
belligerance has made you fall on your face again.

You incorrectly made the remark that Parliament will release what it
choose and we have to accept that. The truth is we the public have a
right enshrined in law to see what does not fall under FOI exceptions.
You forgot that in your headlong rush to make negative comments.

Now you try to change the discussion by advising I should make an FOI
application as if that has anything to do with Parliament withholding
nonsensitive information unreasonably.

Get a grip.
Not every discussion has to be a conflict.
Not every mistake you make has to be covered up.
Just act normal.
Norman Wells
2018-06-11 17:51:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Post by MM
"A damaging culture of 'extraordinary secrecy' inside
government is blighting its ability to plan for Brexit,
according to a comprehensive study of Whitehall.
"Officials are being forced to look at key documents in
special reading rooms, while some papers are confined to the
offices of the most senior civil servants. The installation
of a network of secured computers that can only be accessed
by officials with very high security clearance is also being
accelerated, to keep the documents under wraps.
"Meanwhile, the number of documents being restricted is
going 'well beyond' those containing sensitive details of
the government’s EU negotiations. Even
basic planning and guidance documents are kept locked away,
largely inaccessible to civil service teams that need to see
them."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/whitehall-
secrec
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Post by MM
y- cripples-brexit-plans-says-thinktank
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
MM
David Davis started a lot of this hush-hush stuff when he
wouldn't release the industry sector impact analyses. At
first he even claimed they didn't exist.
I also recall there was some weird idea put about that the
public should not be allowed to know what was being
negotiated on their behalf in case it helped the EU. We were
supposed to compromise our right to know
What makes you think you have a 'right to know' anything?
Where is that enshrined in law?
Freedom of Information Act 2000.
Which contains Sections 21 to 44 all about exceptions. You can
put in a request by all means, but it won't be accepted. One or
more of those exceptions is bound to be invoked.
The government is not above the law and unreasonable reliance on
FOI exceptions can be challenged. Ask Tony Blair.
Then there's nothing to stop you putting in your own freedom of
information request. Are you going to or not? And if not, why not?
Post by pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
in the name of something a minority of the electorate voted
for! What nonsense.
Yes, that *is* nonsense. According to the Electoral
Commission, we elected to leave the EU, and by a majority of
1,269,501.
17,410,742 voted Leave from an electorate of 46,500,001, which
comes to 37%. That is a minority of the electorate whch is
exactly what I said. I wrote it in simple English.
That really shows it is a minority who voted Brexit.
I know. I wrote it clearly enough.
But you're replying to something I didn't write, and which you
must have written yourself.
Very odd. Very sad.
Nice attempt at playing to the gallery, Norman.
True though, isn't it?
Post by pamela
Your rush to
belligerance has made you fall on your face again.
You incorrectly made the remark that Parliament will release what it
choose and we have to accept that.
No I didn't.
Post by pamela
The truth is we the public have a
right enshrined in law to see what does not fall under FOI exceptions.
You forgot that in your headlong rush to make negative comments.
No I didn't. I suggested you used it, but that your request would be
denied because of those exceptions.
Post by pamela
Now you try to change the discussion by advising I should make an FOI
application as if that has anything to do with Parliament withholding
nonsensitive information unreasonably.
It's not changing the discussion at all. You want information. You
have to ask for it. We won't know if the government is witholding it
unreasonably until you tell us the response.
pamela
2018-06-11 18:29:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Post by MM
"A damaging culture of 'extraordinary secrecy' inside
government is blighting its ability to plan for Brexit,
according to a comprehensive study of Whitehall.
"Officials are being forced to look at key documents in
special reading rooms, while some papers are confined to
the offices of the most senior civil servants. The
installation of a network of secured computers that can
only be accessed by officials with very high security
clearance is also being accelerated, to keep the documents
under wraps.
"Meanwhile, the number of documents being restricted is
going 'well beyond' those containing sensitive details of
the governmentÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€şÂ¢s EU
negotiations. Even basic planning and guidance documents
are kept locked away, largely inaccessible to civil
service teams that need to see them."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/whitehall-
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
secrec
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Post by MM
y- cripples-brexit-plans-says-thinktank
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
MM
David Davis started a lot of this hush-hush stuff when he
wouldn't release the industry sector impact analyses. At
first he even claimed they didn't exist.
I also recall there was some weird idea put about that the
public should not be allowed to know what was being
negotiated on their behalf in case it helped the EU. We
were supposed to compromise our right to know
What makes you think you have a 'right to know' anything?
Where is that enshrined in law?
Freedom of Information Act 2000.
Which contains Sections 21 to 44 all about exceptions. You
can put in a request by all means, but it won't be accepted.
One or more of those exceptions is bound to be invoked.
The government is not above the law and unreasonable reliance
on FOI exceptions can be challenged. Ask Tony Blair.
Then there's nothing to stop you putting in your own freedom of
information request. Are you going to or not? And if not, why not?
Post by pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
in the name of something a minority of the electorate voted
for! What nonsense.
Yes, that *is* nonsense. According to the Electoral
Commission, we elected to leave the EU, and by a majority of
1,269,501.
17,410,742 voted Leave from an electorate of 46,500,001,
which comes to 37%. That is a minority of the electorate
whch is exactly what I said. I wrote it in simple English.
That really shows it is a minority who voted Brexit.
I know. I wrote it clearly enough.
But you're replying to something I didn't write, and which you
must have written yourself.
Very odd. Very sad.
Nice attempt at playing to the gallery, Norman.
True though, isn't it?
Post by pamela
Your rush to
belligerance has made you fall on your face again.
You incorrectly made the remark that Parliament will release what
it choose and we have to accept that.
No I didn't.
Post by pamela
The truth is we the public have a
right enshrined in law to see what does not fall under FOI
exceptions. You forgot that in your headlong rush to make
negative comments.
No I didn't. I suggested you used it, but that your request would
be denied because of those exceptions.
Post by pamela
Now you try to change the discussion by advising I should make an
FOI application as if that has anything to do with Parliament
withholding nonsensitive information unreasonably.
It's not changing the discussion at all. You want information.
You have to ask for it. We won't know if the government is
witholding it unreasonably until you tell us the response.
You really don't remember how this thread has gone, do you? You say
I want information but I have never asked for information.

I said the governement should provide it to those who ask for it.
You thought no one had a right to see it but overlooked the Freedom
Of Information Act. When I reminded you, you started to talk about
me making an application, even though I have no desire to see the
information. Others have asked and they are the interested party.

Then you don't understand what constitutes a minority of the
electorate and think 37% is a majority. You really are a duffer.

I'm sorry to repeat myself but you need to get your concentration
and focus checked and you have probably forgotten that you have been
advised to do this before.
R. Mark Clayton
2018-06-11 16:05:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Post by MM
"A damaging culture of 'extraordinary secrecy' inside government
is blighting its ability to plan for Brexit, according to a
comprehensive study of Whitehall.
"Officials are being forced to look at key documents in special
reading rooms, while some papers are confined to the offices of
the most senior civil servants. The installation of a network of
secured computers that can only be accessed by officials with very
high security clearance is also being accelerated, to keep the
documents under wraps.
"Meanwhile, the number of documents being restricted is going
'well beyond' those containing sensitive details of the
government’s EU negotiations. Even basic planning and guidance
documents are kept locked away, largely inaccessible to civil
service teams that need to see them."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/whitehall-secrecy-
cripples-brexit-plans-says-thinktank
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
MM
David Davis started a lot of this hush-hush stuff when he wouldn't
release the industry sector impact analyses. At first he even
claimed they didn't exist.
I also recall there was some weird idea put about that the public
should not be allowed to know what was being negotiated on their
behalf in case it helped the EU. We were supposed to compromise our
right to know
What makes you think you have a 'right to know' anything?
Where is that enshrined in law?
Here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/36
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
in the name of something a minority of the electorate
voted for! What nonsense.
Yes, that *is* nonsense. According to the Electoral Commission, we
elected to leave the EU, and by a majority of 1,269,501.
Wafer thin majority of those who voted, clear minority of those who could, however it is those who vote who decided the issue.
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Brexiteers seem to have much to hide.
Negotiators do not reveal their hand. It's Negotiation 101.
Especially if it is seven high! They just bluff, which is what the government is doing to the electorate.

Still as predicted the chickens are starting to come home to roost now and maybe the electorate will fully twig they have been conned when we tip into recession again.
Norman Wells
2018-06-11 17:26:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Post by MM
"A damaging culture of 'extraordinary secrecy' inside government
is blighting its ability to plan for Brexit, according to a
comprehensive study of Whitehall.
"Officials are being forced to look at key documents in special
reading rooms, while some papers are confined to the offices of
the most senior civil servants. The installation of a network of
secured computers that can only be accessed by officials with very
high security clearance is also being accelerated, to keep the
documents under wraps.
"Meanwhile, the number of documents being restricted is going
'well beyond' those containing sensitive details of the
government’s EU negotiations. Even basic planning and guidance
documents are kept locked away, largely inaccessible to civil
service teams that need to see them."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/whitehall-secrecy-
cripples-brexit-plans-says-thinktank
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
MM
David Davis started a lot of this hush-hush stuff when he wouldn't
release the industry sector impact analyses. At first he even
claimed they didn't exist.
I also recall there was some weird idea put about that the public
should not be allowed to know what was being negotiated on their
behalf in case it helped the EU. We were supposed to compromise our
right to know
What makes you think you have a 'right to know' anything?
Where is that enshrined in law?
Here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/36
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
in the name of something a minority of the electorate
voted for! What nonsense.
Yes, that *is* nonsense. According to the Electoral Commission, we
elected to leave the EU, and by a majority of 1,269,501.
Wafer thin majority of those who voted, clear minority of those who could, however it is those who vote who decided the issue.
I'll say it again. The majority was 1,269,501. For every 100 people
who voted to Remain, 108 voted to leave.

It's not 'wafer-thin' unless you're blind to the facts.

Besides, it doesn't matter what you call the majority. It was a
majority, and that's what counts.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Brexiteers seem to have much to hide.
Negotiators do not reveal their hand. It's Negotiation 101.
Especially if it is seven high! They just bluff, which is what the government is doing to the electorate.
Still as predicted the chickens are starting to come home to roost now and maybe the electorate will fully twig they have been conned when we tip into recession again.
The electorate chose to go down this path towards the sunlit uplands.
They were told and knew full well there might be bumps in the road.

Anyway, Look East had an interesting news item today where they showed a
clip of some Remainer predicting gloom and doom just after the
referendum, preceding the news that inward investment into the east of
England has in fact doubled.

The future is the curse of all futurologists who predict things. That's
why they get it so wrong so much of the time.
R. Mark Clayton
2018-06-12 10:49:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Post by MM
"A damaging culture of 'extraordinary secrecy' inside government
is blighting its ability to plan for Brexit, according to a
comprehensive study of Whitehall.
"Officials are being forced to look at key documents in special
reading rooms, while some papers are confined to the offices of
the most senior civil servants. The installation of a network of
secured computers that can only be accessed by officials with very
high security clearance is also being accelerated, to keep the
documents under wraps.
"Meanwhile, the number of documents being restricted is going
'well beyond' those containing sensitive details of the
government’s EU negotiations. Even basic planning and guidance
documents are kept locked away, largely inaccessible to civil
service teams that need to see them."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/whitehall-secrecy-
cripples-brexit-plans-says-thinktank
Makes you wonder what they've got to hide.
MM
David Davis started a lot of this hush-hush stuff when he wouldn't
release the industry sector impact analyses. At first he even
claimed they didn't exist.
I also recall there was some weird idea put about that the public
should not be allowed to know what was being negotiated on their
behalf in case it helped the EU. We were supposed to compromise our
right to know
What makes you think you have a 'right to know' anything?
Where is that enshrined in law?
Here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/36
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
in the name of something a minority of the electorate
voted for! What nonsense.
Yes, that *is* nonsense. According to the Electoral Commission, we
elected to leave the EU, and by a majority of 1,269,501.
Wafer thin majority of those who voted, clear minority of those who could, however it is those who vote who decided the issue.
I'll say it again. The majority was 1,269,501. For every 100 people
who voted to Remain, 108 voted to leave.
It's not 'wafer-thin' unless you're blind to the facts.
Besides, it doesn't matter what you call the majority. It was a
majority, and that's what counts.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by pamela
Brexiteers seem to have much to hide.
Negotiators do not reveal their hand. It's Negotiation 101.
Especially if it is seven high! They just bluff, which is what the government is doing to the electorate.
Still as predicted the chickens are starting to come home to roost now and maybe the electorate will fully twig they have been conned when we tip into recession again.
The electorate chose to go down this path towards the sunlit uplands.
They were told and knew full well there might be bumps in the road.
Anyway, Look East had an interesting news item today where they showed a
clip of some Remainer predicting gloom and doom just after the
referendum, preceding the news that inward investment into the east of
England has in fact doubled.
The future is the curse of all futurologists who predict things. That's
why they get it so wrong so much of the time.
I must have been watching the wrong channel, I understood massive investment was being shifted from the midlands to eastern Europe, not eastern England: -

https://news.sky.com/story/jaguar-land-rover-moves-discovery-production-to-slovakia-11401771

I think this is because the volume sales vehicle will avoid EU tariffs if built in Slovakia, whereas the prestige Range Rovers mostly sell in the UK / RoW and their profit margin is high enough to absorb tariffs on EU exports.

Plenty more of this to come as the UK falls even further behind the EU economically on the slippery slope it has been on since the referendum: -

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-manufacturing-latest-april-worst-five-years-office-national-statistics-gdp-bank-england-a8392891.html
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jun/11/no-excuses-slump-in-uk-manufacturing-is-dismal-news
https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/economics/9248-uk-trade-deficit-widens-in-april-as-uk-eu-goods-balance-deteriorates
whereas
http://business-review.eu/business/romanias-industrial-production-rose-3-6-pct-in-april-turnover-up-15-pct-172941

damaging our own economy is one way of getting the East Europeans to go home I suppose
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