Discussion:
Petition for gardener who shot and killed burglar
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BurfordTJustice
2017-10-11 11:27:37 UTC
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Not unlike the UK where protecting yourself and your family
is forbidden.

Petition for gardener who shot and killed burglar
Nearly 85,000 people show support for property owner facing manslaughter
charge after he killed a burglar in his Hérault home


Nearly 85,000 people have signed an online petition in supporting a Hérault
property owner who shot and killed a burglar on October 5, and demanding a
change to France's self-defence laws.

The petition is accompanied by an open letter to Minister of Justice Nicole
Belloubet headlined: A victim risks imprisonment for protecting his family.

A Facebook support page, meanwhile, has nearly 48,000 likes, for 'Daniel', a
landscape gardener, whose Saint-Adrien venue in Servian, near Béziers, as
featured on France 2 show Le jardin preferé des Français.

He faces a manslaughter charge after shooting one of two burglars who broke
into his home. He reportedly told police that the pair were armed, and
attacked him and his wife.

Franceinfo reports that he then seized a gun that he owns to drive wild boar
from his award-winning gardens, and shot one of the criminals as they headed
upstairs in search of valuables.

The other burglar fled the scene.

The property owner remains at liberty, despite being under investigation, as
police seek to determine whether the conditions that would justify a
self-defence mitigation are met. In a statement, Béziers prosecutor Yvon
Calvet said: "The person who has fired must have been, as objectively as
possible, certain of being in danger of death."
R. Mark Clayton
2017-10-11 11:38:03 UTC
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Post by BurfordTJustice
Not unlike the UK where protecting yourself and your family
is forbidden.
Rubbish self defence is well established in English law - gangster Kenneth Noye successfully used it to gain acquittal after killing a policeman in his garden.
Post by BurfordTJustice
Petition for gardener who shot and killed burglar
Nearly 85,000 people show support for property owner facing manslaughter
charge after he killed a burglar in his Hérault home
Nearly 85,000 people have signed an online petition in supporting a Hérault
property owner who shot and killed a burglar on October 5, and demanding a
change to France's self-defence laws.
The petition is accompanied by an open letter to Minister of Justice Nicole
Belloubet headlined: A victim risks imprisonment for protecting his family.
A Facebook support page, meanwhile, has nearly 48,000 likes, for 'Daniel', a
landscape gardener, whose Saint-Adrien venue in Servian, near Béziers, as
featured on France 2 show Le jardin preferé des Français.
He faces a manslaughter charge after shooting one of two burglars who broke
into his home. He reportedly told police that the pair were armed, and
attacked him and his wife.
Franceinfo reports that he then seized a gun that he owns to drive wild boar
from his award-winning gardens, and shot one of the criminals as they headed
upstairs in search of valuables.
The other burglar fled the scene.
The property owner remains at liberty, despite being under investigation, as
police seek to determine whether the conditions that would justify a
self-defence mitigation are met. In a statement, Béziers prosecutor Yvon
Calvet said: "The person who has fired must have been, as objectively as
possible, certain of being in danger of death."
BurfordTJustice
2017-10-11 11:47:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by BurfordTJustice
Not unlike the UK where protecting yourself and your family
is forbidden.
Rubbish self defence is well established in English law - gangster Kenneth
Noye successfully used it to gain acquittal after killing a policeman in his
garden.
Post by BurfordTJustice
Petition for gardener who shot and killed burglar
Nearly 85,000 people show support for property owner facing manslaughter
charge after he killed a burglar in his Hérault home
Nearly 85,000 people have signed an online petition in supporting a Hérault
property owner who shot and killed a burglar on October 5, and demanding a
change to France's self-defence laws.
The petition is accompanied by an open letter to Minister of Justice Nicole
Belloubet headlined: A victim risks imprisonment for protecting his family.
A Facebook support page, meanwhile, has nearly 48,000 likes, for 'Daniel', a
landscape gardener, whose Saint-Adrien venue in Servian, near Béziers, as
featured on France 2 show Le jardin preferé des Français.
He faces a manslaughter charge after shooting one of two burglars who broke
into his home. He reportedly told police that the pair were armed, and
attacked him and his wife.
Franceinfo reports that he then seized a gun that he owns to drive wild boar
from his award-winning gardens, and shot one of the criminals as they headed
upstairs in search of valuables.
The other burglar fled the scene.
The property owner remains at liberty, despite being under investigation, as
police seek to determine whether the conditions that would justify a
self-defence mitigation are met. In a statement, Béziers prosecutor Yvon
Calvet said: "The person who has fired must have been, as objectively as
possible, certain of being in danger of death."
tim...
2017-10-11 12:49:09 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by BurfordTJustice
Not unlike the UK where protecting yourself and your family
is forbidden.
Petition for gardener who shot and killed burglar
Nearly 85,000 people show support for property owner facing manslaughter
charge after he killed a burglar in his Hérault home
Nearly 85,000 people have signed an online petition in supporting a
Hérault property owner who shot and killed a burglar on October 5, and
demanding a change to France's self-defence laws.
The petition is accompanied by an open letter to Minister of Justice
Nicole Belloubet headlined: A victim risks imprisonment for protecting his
family.
A Facebook support page, meanwhile, has nearly 48,000 likes, for 'Daniel',
a landscape gardener, whose Saint-Adrien venue in Servian, near Béziers,
as featured on France 2 show Le jardin preferé des Français.
He faces a manslaughter charge after shooting one of two burglars who
broke into his home. He reportedly told police that the pair were armed,
and attacked him and his wife.
Franceinfo reports that he then seized a gun that he owns to drive wild
boar from his award-winning gardens, and shot one of the criminals as they
headed upstairs in search of valuables.
shooting someone heading away from you is not self defense

it's a well established legal principle

tim
pensive hamster
2017-10-11 16:58:26 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by BurfordTJustice
Not unlike the UK where protecting yourself and your family
is forbidden.
Petition for gardener who shot and killed burglar
Nearly 85,000 people show support for property owner facing manslaughter
charge after he killed a burglar in his Hérault home
Nearly 85,000 people have signed an online petition in supporting a
Hérault property owner who shot and killed a burglar on October 5, and
demanding a change to France's self-defence laws.
The petition is accompanied by an open letter to Minister of Justice
Nicole Belloubet headlined: A victim risks imprisonment for protecting his
family.
A Facebook support page, meanwhile, has nearly 48,000 likes, for 'Daniel',
a landscape gardener, whose Saint-Adrien venue in Servian, near Béziers,
as featured on France 2 show Le jardin preferé des Français.
He faces a manslaughter charge after shooting one of two burglars who
broke into his home. He reportedly told police that the pair were armed,
and attacked him and his wife.
Franceinfo reports that he then seized a gun that he owns to drive wild
boar from his award-winning gardens, and shot one of the criminals as they
headed upstairs in search of valuables.
shooting someone heading away from you is not self defense
it's a well established legal principle
Is heading upstairs in your house, heading away from you?

There might be family members upstairs, plus the burglars
are likely to come back downstairs at some stage. And if
they were armed, and had already attacked Daniel and his
wife ...?
BurfordTJustice
2017-10-11 20:21:48 UTC
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Post by BurfordTJustice
and shot one of the criminals as they
Post by BurfordTJustice
headed upstairs in search of valuables.
shooting someone heading away from you is not self defense
it's a well established legal principle
Um, if the crook is committing a forcible felony, he can be shot dead.
In my house. Cops shoot fleeing felons all the time. Courts have
rulled it justified. An unarmed prison escapee can be shot dead with
no warning, command to stop or a verbal warning. Even is unarmed.
tim...
2017-10-12 10:47:03 UTC
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Post by BurfordTJustice
and shot one of the criminals as they
Post by BurfordTJustice
headed upstairs in search of valuables.
shooting someone heading away from you is not self defense
it's a well established legal principle
Um, if the crook is committing a forcible felony, he can be shot dead.
if in your county that's a specifically allowed act then that would be a
valid defence

but it still wouldn't be a self defence defence

tim
Ed Pawlowski
2017-10-12 12:45:19 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by BurfordTJustice
and shot one of the criminals as they
Post by BurfordTJustice
headed upstairs in search of valuables.
shooting someone heading away from you is not self defense
it's a well established legal principle
Um, if the crook is committing a forcible felony, he can be shot dead.
if in your county that's a specifically allowed act then that would be a
valid defence
but it still wouldn't be a self defence defence
tim
If he is breaking in, you can shoot, but if he is leaving, you cannot
shoot him in the back. Best to wait and blast him once the door or
window is open and drag the body inside at least partially.

I don't feel bad about a thief getting shot in the back but it is not
legal to do so.
Ophelia
2017-10-12 16:18:00 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by BurfordTJustice
and shot one of the criminals as they
Post by BurfordTJustice
headed upstairs in search of valuables.
shooting someone heading away from you is not self defense
it's a well established legal principle
Um, if the crook is committing a forcible felony, he can be shot dead.
if in your county that's a specifically allowed act then that would be a
valid defence
but it still wouldn't be a self defence defence
tim
If he is breaking in, you can shoot, but if he is leaving, you cannot
shoot him in the back. Best to wait and blast him once the door or
window is open and drag the body inside at least partially.

I don't feel bad about a thief getting shot in the back but it is not
legal to do so.

==

We can't shoot anyone breaking in either. To be able to shoot we have to
consider our life to be at immediate risk.
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk
R. Mark Clayton
2017-10-12 11:25:05 UTC
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Post by BurfordTJustice
and shot one of the criminals as they
Post by BurfordTJustice
headed upstairs in search of valuables.
shooting someone heading away from you is not self defense
it's a well established legal principle
Um, if the crook is committing a forcible felony, he can be shot dead.
In my house. Cops shoot fleeing felons all the time. Courts have
rulled it justified. An unarmed prison escapee can be shot dead with
no warning, command to stop or a verbal warning. Even is unarmed.
This is a UK group - most of the above is baloney here.
BurfordTJustice
2017-10-12 11:37:47 UTC
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France and the UK are both part of the EU who rules all.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by BurfordTJustice
and shot one of the criminals as they
Post by BurfordTJustice
headed upstairs in search of valuables.
shooting someone heading away from you is not self defense
it's a well established legal principle
Um, if the crook is committing a forcible felony, he can be shot dead.
In my house. Cops shoot fleeing felons all the time. Courts have
rulled it justified. An unarmed prison escapee can be shot dead with
no warning, command to stop or a verbal warning. Even is unarmed.
This is a UK group - most of the above is baloney here.
FMurtz
2017-10-20 05:50:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by BurfordTJustice
Not unlike the UK where protecting yourself and your family
is forbidden.
Petition for gardener who shot and killed burglar
Nearly 85,000 people show support for property owner facing
manslaughter charge after he killed a burglar in his Hérault home
Nearly 85,000 people have signed an online petition in supporting a
Hérault property owner who shot and killed a burglar on October 5, and
demanding a change to France's self-defence laws.
The petition is accompanied by an open letter to Minister of Justice
Nicole Belloubet headlined: A victim risks imprisonment for protecting
his family.
A Facebook support page, meanwhile, has nearly 48,000 likes, for
'Daniel', a landscape gardener, whose Saint-Adrien venue in Servian,
near Béziers, as featured on France 2 show Le jardin preferé des
Français.
He faces a manslaughter charge after shooting one of two burglars who
broke into his home. He reportedly told police that the pair were
armed, and attacked him and his wife.
Franceinfo reports that he then seized a gun that he owns to drive
wild boar from his award-winning gardens, and shot one of the
criminals as they headed upstairs in search of valuables.
shooting someone heading away from you is not self defense
it's a well established legal principle
tim
But would be allowed in Australia if it would be to save others in danger.
Altroy1
2017-10-11 19:34:02 UTC
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Post by BurfordTJustice
The property owner remains at liberty, despite being under investigation, as
police seek to determine whether the conditions that would justify a
self-defence mitigation are met. In a statement, Béziers prosecutor Yvon
Calvet said: "The person who has fired must have been, as objectively as
possible, certain of being in danger of death."
I'm not completely understanding how someone must be held guilty of a crime
unless they (1) are certain of being in danger of death and (2) the test is not
what the alleged victim of the burglars was certain of but the substituted
objective opinion of a court.


That said, I would have thought to fire at a burglar who was threatening to
steal your property is not a justification of self defence. Self defence, I
would have thought, would suggest a reasonable belief that you and/or your
family was in imminent personal danger of death or serious harm from that burglar.

In Europe as far as I know the law does not sanction shooters to kill anyone
threatening to steal their car or shops to shoot at anyone they suspect is about
to make off with some goods. That does not mean reasonable force cannot be used
to defend property. Summary implementation of the death penalty by private
individuals for property crime is another matter.
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