Jon Venables

Post by Peter Percival
Is possessing a "paedophile manual" (whatever one of those is) a crime?
It seems it must be because according to
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-42972085 he admitted to a charge of
possessing one. So, what crime has been committed?

s. 69(1) of the Serious Crime Act 2015

Possession of paedophile manual

(1)It is an offence to be in possession of any item that contains advice
or guidance about abusing children sexually.

(2)It is a defence for a person (D) charged with an offence under this
section—

(a)to prove that D had a legitimate reason for being in possession of
the item;

(b)to prove that—

(i)D had not read, viewed or (as appropriate) listened to the item, and

(ii)D did not know, and had no reason to suspect, that it contained
advice or guidance about abusing children sexually; or

(c)to prove that—

(i)the item was sent to D without any request made by D or on D’s
behalf, and

(ii)D did not keep it for an unreasonable time.

Peter Percival

2018-02-07 17:54:30 UTC

Post by The Todal

Post by Peter Percival
Is possessing a "paedophile manual" (whatever one of those is) a
crime? It seems it must be because according to
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-42972085 he admitted to a charge
of possessing one. So, what crime has been committed?

s. 69(1) of the Serious Crime Act 2015
Possession of paedophile manual
(1)It is an offence to be in possession of any item that contains advice
or guidance about abusing children sexually.

Thank you. Presumably an ex bank robber could publish his memoirs which
might provide a would-be bank robber with useful guidance (even if that
wasn't the ex bank robber's intention. Even a novel might contain
useful info (useful intentionally or otherwise). Would it be a crime
for someone to posses such works?

Post by The Todal
(2)It is a defence for a person (D) charged with an offence under this
section—
(a)to prove that D had a legitimate reason for being in possession of
the item;
(b)to prove that—
(i)D had not read, viewed or (as appropriate) listened to the item, and
(ii)D did not know, and had no reason to suspect, that it contained
advice or guidance about abusing children sexually; or
(c)to prove that—
(i)the item was sent to D without any request made by D or on D’s
behalf, and
(ii)D did not keep it for an unreasonable time.

Handsome Jack

2018-02-07 18:18:14 UTC

Post by The Todal

Post by Peter Percival
Is possessing a "paedophile manual" (whatever one of those is) a
crime? It seems it must be because according to
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-42972085 he admitted to a charge
of possessing one. So, what crime has been committed?

s. 69(1) of the Serious Crime Act 2015
Possession of paedophile manual
(1)It is an offence to be in possession of any item that contains
advice or guidance about abusing children sexually.

Thank you. Presumably an ex bank robber could publish his memoirs
which might provide a would-be bank robber with useful guidance (even
if that wasn't the ex bank robber's intention. Even a novel might
contain useful info (useful intentionally or otherwise). Would it be a
crime for someone to posses such works?

Probably not, as it it does not contravene s.69(1) SCA 2015. Please
don't waste your time with arguments based on the assumption that the
law is rational, consistent, or aimed at sensible goals.

TBH I thought at first the Todal was 'avin a larf when he quoted the
above - that he was satirising the law-making process by inventing a
preposterous new offence. Just shows how wrong a man can be. Satire is
dead, as Tom Lehrer said when he heard that Henry Kissinger had won the
Nobel Peace Prize.

--
Jack

Brian Reay

2018-02-07 20:06:47 UTC

Post by The Todal

Post by Peter Percival
Is possessing a "paedophile manual" (whatever one of those is) a
crime? It seems it must be because according to
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-42972085 he admitted to a charge
of possessing one. So, what crime has been committed?

s. 69(1) of the Serious Crime Act 2015
Possession of paedophile manual
(1)It is an offence to be in possession of any item that contains
advice or guidance about abusing children sexually.

It becomes an offence when a law prohibiting it is in place.

That occurs when Parliament decides it should be illegal.

We can debate why that conclusion is reached, in this case I doubt many
decent people would think the law isn't justified.

Handsome Jack

2018-02-07 21:29:59 UTC

Thank you. Presumably an ex bank robber could publish his memoirs
which might provide a would-be bank robber with useful guidance (even
if that wasn't the ex bank robber's intention. Even a novel might
contain useful info (useful intentionally or otherwise). Would it be
a crime for someone to posses such works?

It becomes an offence when a law prohibiting it is in place.
That occurs when Parliament decides it should be illegal.

We know that, it doesn't advance the substantive debate by one
millimetre. It is equivalent to "My dad is bigger than your dad", the
ancient fallacy known as the argument ad baculum or appeal to force.

Post by Brian Reay
We can debate why that conclusion is reached, in this case I doubt many
decent people would think the law isn't justified.

Hard to say. Suppose one got together a hundred of your "decent people"
(itself a question-begging term) and all the arguments were put to them
by both sides. Can you really be sure that what you claim would prevail?

--
Jack

Graham T

2018-02-07 20:33:52 UTC

Post by The Todal
s. 69(1) of the Serious Crime Act 2015
Possession of paedophile manual
(1)It is an offence to be in possession of any item that contains advice
or guidance about abusing children sexually.
(2)It is a defence for a person (D) charged with an offence under this
section—
(a)to prove that D had a legitimate reason for being in possession of
the item;
(b)to prove that—
(i)D had not read, viewed or (as appropriate) listened to the item, and
(ii)D did not know, and had no reason to suspect, that it contained
advice or guidance about abusing children sexually; or
(c)to prove that—
(i)the item was sent to D without any request made by D or on D’s
behalf, and
(ii)D did not keep it for an unreasonable time.

This is bordering on Lady Chatterly's Lover.

I really can't see that any writings on any subject can possibly be
illegal. The Yanks wouldn't allow this interference with their rights
to Freedom of Expression.

Brian Reay

2018-02-07 20:52:10 UTC

Post by The Todal
s. 69(1) of the Serious Crime Act 2015
Possession of paedophile manual
(1)It is an offence to be in possession of any item that contains
advice or guidance about abusing children sexually.
(2)It is a defence for a person (D) charged with an offence under this
section—
(a)to prove that D had a legitimate reason for being in possession of
the item;
(b)to prove that—
(i)D had not read, viewed or (as appropriate) listened to the item, and
(ii)D did not know, and had no reason to suspect, that it contained
advice or guidance about abusing children sexually; or
(c)to prove that—
(i)the item was sent to D without any request made by D or on D’s
behalf, and
(ii)D did not keep it for an unreasonable time.

This is bordering on Lady Chatterly's Lover.
I really can't see that any writings on any subject can possibly be
illegal. The Yanks wouldn't allow this interference with their rights
to Freedom of Expression.

What do the words 'manual' and 'advice or guidance' suggest in relation
to a book?

Graham T

2018-02-07 21:03:17 UTC

Post by The Todal
s. 69(1) of the Serious Crime Act 2015
Possession of paedophile manual
(1)It is an offence to be in possession of any item that contains
advice or guidance about abusing children sexually.
(2)It is a defence for a person (D) charged with an offence under
this section—
(a)to prove that D had a legitimate reason for being in possession of
the item;
(b)to prove that—
(i)D had not read, viewed or (as appropriate) listened to the item, and
(ii)D did not know, and had no reason to suspect, that it contained
advice or guidance about abusing children sexually; or
(c)to prove that—
(i)the item was sent to D without any request made by D or on D’s
behalf, and
(ii)D did not keep it for an unreasonable time.

This is bordering on Lady Chatterly's Lover.
I really can't see that any writings on any subject can possibly be
illegal. The Yanks wouldn't allow this interference with their rights
to Freedom of Expression.

What do the words 'manual' and 'advice or guidance' suggest in relation
to a book?

ALL books, indeed ALL written words can be called 'instructions' but
tell me where this 'Manual, advice and guidance' titled tome can be
found. I've Googled and can't find it. Plenty of extreme BDSM which
is also now illegal in the UK. How many prosecutions for this? Zilch.

When I first got a computer one of the first such publications that
I came across was The Anarchists Cookbook. Not one prosecution has
ever taken place for possessing this.

While Venables has been wanking over his computer he has left the real
thing alone.

Brian Reay

2018-02-07 21:25:13 UTC

Post by The Todal
s. 69(1) of the Serious Crime Act 2015
Possession of paedophile manual
(1)It is an offence to be in possession of any item that contains
advice or guidance about abusing children sexually.
(2)It is a defence for a person (D) charged with an offence under
this section—
(a)to prove that D had a legitimate reason for being in possession
of the item;
(b)to prove that—
(i)D had not read, viewed or (as appropriate) listened to the item, and
(ii)D did not know, and had no reason to suspect, that it contained
advice or guidance about abusing children sexually; or
(c)to prove that—
(i)the item was sent to D without any request made by D or on D’s
behalf, and
(ii)D did not keep it for an unreasonable time.

This is bordering on Lady Chatterly's Lover.
I really can't see that any writings on any subject can possibly be
illegal. The Yanks wouldn't allow this interference with their rights
to Freedom of Expression.

What do the words 'manual' and 'advice or guidance' suggest in
relation to a book?

ALL books, indeed ALL written words can be called 'instructions' but
tell me where this 'Manual, advice and guidance' titled tome can be
found. I've Googled and can't find it. Plenty of extreme BDSM which
is also now illegal in the UK. How many prosecutions for this? Zilch.
When I first got a computer one of the first such publications that
I came across was The Anarchists Cookbook. Not one prosecution has
ever taken place for possessing this.

I've covered the question of while not all books are covered earlier.

Post by Graham T
While Venables has been wanking over his computer he has left the real
thing alone.

What about the images? Don't you accept they involve real children?
Perverts who 'collect them' generate a demand, do I need to spell it out?

Graham T

2018-02-07 21:54:52 UTC

Post by Graham T
ALL books, indeed ALL written words can be called 'instructions' but
tell me where this 'Manual, advice and guidance' titled tome can be
found. I've Googled and can't find it. Plenty of extreme BDSM which
is also now illegal in the UK. How many prosecutions for this? Zilch.
When I first got a computer one of the first such publications that
I came across was The Anarchists Cookbook. Not one prosecution has
ever taken place for possessing this.

I've covered the question of while not all books are covered earlier.

Post by Graham T
While Venables has been wanking over his computer he has left the real
thing alone.

What about the images? Don't you accept they involve real children?

No one has said there were images, indeed it sounds like a written work
he has been nicked for.

What written works contains real children. How can Venables stick his
hands down a collection of letters?

Post by Brian Reay
Perverts who 'collect them' generate a demand, do I need to spell it out?

Perverts can imagine things. How do you intend stopping that?
The anarchist cookbook 'can be of use to terrorists' yet not one
prosecution for owning it has taken place.

Let the witch hunt continue.

Peter Percival

2018-04-13 21:54:24 UTC

Post by Brian Reay
What about the images? Don't you accept they involve real children?

They may not. Computer generated images of "children" can be illegal, I
think.

Post by Brian Reay
Perverts who 'collect them' generate a demand, do I need to spell it out?

One of the silliest claims is that each time an image is downloaded
(suppose, now, that it is an image of a real child), the child is abused
all over again.

Laurence Taylor

2018-04-14 12:34:35 UTC

Post by Brian Reay
What about the images? Don't you accept they involve real children?

They may not. Computer generated images of "children" can be illegal, I
think.

Not only is computer-generated child porn illegal, but also line drawings
and cartoons.

--
rgds
LAurence
<><
...
W A R N I N G!! Taglines are V E R Y addictive!!

2018-04-16 07:41:58 UTC

On Sat, 14 Apr 2018 12:34:35 +0000, Laurence Taylor

Post by Brian Reay
What about the images? Don't you accept they involve real children?

They may not. Computer generated images of "children" can be illegal, I
think.

Not only is computer-generated child porn illegal, but also line drawings
and cartoons.

So if you drew a straight line on a sheet of paper and wanked over it,
you'd be guilty?

MM

JNugent

2018-04-16 11:13:25 UTC

Post by MM
On Sat, 14 Apr 2018 12:34:35 +0000, Laurence Taylor

Post by Brian Reay
What about the images? Don't you accept they involve real children?

They may not. Computer generated images of "children" can be illegal, I
think.

Not only is computer-generated child porn illegal, but also line drawings
and cartoons.

So if you drew a straight line on a sheet of paper and wanked over it,
you'd be guilty?

Along with your other fantasies (about Mrs May in another thread),
you're having a very revealing day, aren't you?

2018-04-17 18:32:51 UTC

Post by MM
On Sat, 14 Apr 2018 12:34:35 +0000, Laurence Taylor

Post by Brian Reay
What about the images? Don't you accept they involve real children?

They may not. Computer generated images of "children" can be illegal, I
think.

Not only is computer-generated child porn illegal, but also line drawings
and cartoons.

So if you drew a straight line on a sheet of paper and wanked over it,
you'd be guilty?

Along with your other fantasies (about Mrs May in another thread),
you're having a very revealing day, aren't you?

Are you jealous that your lines aren't doing it for ya?

MM

JNugent

2018-04-17 19:45:38 UTC

Post by MM
On Sat, 14 Apr 2018 12:34:35 +0000, Laurence Taylor

Post by Brian Reay
What about the images? Don't you accept they involve real children?

They may not. Computer generated images of "children" can be illegal, I
think.

Not only is computer-generated child porn illegal, but also line drawings
and cartoons.

So if you drew a straight line on a sheet of paper and wanked over it,
you'd be guilty?

Along with your other fantasies (about Mrs May in another thread),
you're having a very revealing day, aren't you?

Are you jealous that your lines aren't doing it for ya?

Oh, this is not about me, big boy.

It's all about you and your fantasies, which you cannot prevent yourself
from revealing in public, even if you wanted to.

2018-04-19 17:05:28 UTC

Post by MM
On Sat, 14 Apr 2018 12:34:35 +0000, Laurence Taylor

Post by Brian Reay
What about the images? Don't you accept they involve real children?

They may not. Computer generated images of "children" can be illegal, I
think.

Not only is computer-generated child porn illegal, but also line drawings
and cartoons.

So if you drew a straight line on a sheet of paper and wanked over it,
you'd be guilty?

Along with your other fantasies (about Mrs May in another thread),
you're having a very revealing day, aren't you?

Are you jealous that your lines aren't doing it for ya?

Oh, this is not about me, big boy.

I'll take that as a compliment.

MM

JNugent

2018-04-19 17:25:49 UTC

Post by MM
On Sat, 14 Apr 2018 12:34:35 +0000, Laurence Taylor

Post by Brian Reay
What about the images? Don't you accept they involve real children?

They may not. Computer generated images of "children" can be illegal, I
think.

Not only is computer-generated child porn illegal, but also line drawings
and cartoons.

So if you drew a straight line on a sheet of paper and wanked over it,
you'd be guilty?

Along with your other fantasies (about Mrs May in another thread),
you're having a very revealing day, aren't you?

Are you jealous that your lines aren't doing it for ya?

Oh, this is not about me, big boy.

I'll take that as a compliment.

As long as it means you're going to tone down the public expression of
your wilder fantasies about prominent women.

R. Mark Clayton

2018-04-14 15:18:36 UTC

Post by Brian Reay
What about the images? Don't you accept they involve real children?

They may not. Computer generated images of "children" can be illegal, I
think.

Post by Brian Reay
Perverts who 'collect them' generate a demand, do I need to spell it out?

One of the silliest claims is that each time an image is downloaded
(suppose, now, that it is an image of a real child), the child is abused
all over again.

The claim is that it creates commercial demand that leads to more abuse in order to produce the images.

Paul Cummins

2018-04-14 16:26:00 UTC

Post by R. Mark Clayton
The claim is that it creates commercial demand that leads to more
abuse in order to produce the images.

But that claim has never been proven. In fact it's more ikely that the
pictures that are "commercially" available have been recycled to death.

--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
====
Visit North Kent's 2nd biggest supplier of Sour Grapes
http://www.grapesdirect.co.uk

pensive hamster

2018-02-08 15:11:53 UTC

Post by The Todal
s. 69(1) of the Serious Crime Act 2015
Possession of paedophile manual
(1)It is an offence to be in possession of any item that contains
advice or guidance about abusing children sexually.
(2)It is a defence for a person (D) charged with an offence under
this section—
(a)to prove that D had a legitimate reason for being in possession of
the item;
(b)to prove that—
(i)D had not read, viewed or (as appropriate) listened to the item, and
(ii)D did not know, and had no reason to suspect, that it contained
advice or guidance about abusing children sexually; or
(c)to prove that—
(i)the item was sent to D without any request made by D or on D’s
behalf, and
(ii)D did not keep it for an unreasonable time.

This is bordering on Lady Chatterly's Lover.
I really can't see that any writings on any subject can possibly be
illegal. The Yanks wouldn't allow this interference with their rights
to Freedom of Expression.

What do the words 'manual' and 'advice or guidance' suggest in relation
to a book?

ALL books, indeed ALL written words can be called 'instructions' but
tell me where this 'Manual, advice and guidance' titled tome can be
found. I've Googled and can't find it. Plenty of extreme BDSM which
is also now illegal in the UK. How many prosecutions for this? Zilch.
When I first got a computer one of the first such publications that
I came across was The Anarchists Cookbook. Not one prosecution has
ever taken place for possessing this.

Prosecutions yes, but no actual convictions (unless the accused
also had some weapons or explosives):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anarchist_Cookbook#Legality

'... In 2007, a 17-year-old was arrested in the United Kingdom
and faced charges under anti-terrorism law in the UK for
possession of this book, among other things.[18] He was
cleared of all charges in October 2008, after arguing that he was
a prankster who just wanted to research fireworks and smoke
bombs.[19]

'In County Durham, UK in 2010, Ian Davison and his son were
imprisoned under anti-terrorism laws for the manufacturing of ricin,
and their possession of The Anarchist Cookbook, along with its
availability, was noted by the authorities.[20]

'... In 2017, a 27-year-old was prosecuted in UK solely for the
possession of the book. He was found not guilty.[21]'

--------------------------------------
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/dissident-storeman-jailed-for-possession-of-bomb-cookbook-30578046.html
September 11 2014

'A man has been jailed for four years for a string of dissident
terrorist-related offences including the possession of a bomb-making
'cookbook' and explosive substances.

'... The father-of-one admitted possessing an explosive substance,
Pentaerythritol Tetranitrate (PETN), with intent to endanger life or
cause serious injury to property, on the second limb of the charge,
namely enabling others to endanger life. He entered the same plea
on a similar charge of possessing explosive substances –
aluminium granules, magnesium ribbon and metal springs – with intent
to endanger life or cause serious injury to property.

'Concannon also pleaded guilty to four terrorist-related charges on
the same date, and entered guilty pleas to all three counts. He pleaded
guilty to possession of a firearm and a magazine in suspicious
circumstances; possession of explosives, namely blank cartridges, in
suspicious circumstances; possession information or documents likely
to be of use in terrorism, namely the Anarchist's Cookbook, and also
possessing articles for use in terrorism. ...'

Post by Graham T
While Venables has been wanking over his computer he has left the real
thing alone.

However, possessing a "paedophile manual" plus actual indecent
images:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-42972085

'James Bulger killer Jon Venables jailed over indecent images

'... Mr Justice Edis said possessing the manual suggested Venables
was "at least contemplating the possibility" of committing an actual
sexual crime against children.'

Peter Percival

2018-04-13 21:59:32 UTC

Post by pensive hamster
However, possessing a "paedophile manual" plus actual indecent
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-42972085
'James Bulger killer Jon Venables jailed over indecent images
'... Mr Justice Edis said possessing the manual suggested Venables
was "at least contemplating the possibility" of committing an actual
sexual crime against children.'

Contemplating a possibility is not a crime, y'r honour.

pensive hamster

2018-04-15 15:16:41 UTC

Contemplating a possibility is not a crime, y'r honour.

No, not by itself, but in combination with an actual crime
(possessing child abuse images), it might lead the judge
and/or probation officers to consider him more of a risk
to the public.

Peter Percival

2018-04-13 21:49:53 UTC

Post by Graham T
While Venables has been wanking over his computer he has left the real
thing alone.

That, I think is very much to the point. Like those sex dolls made to
look like children: the people who use them are leaving the real thing
alone.

tim...

2018-04-14 08:37:28 UTC

Post by Graham T
While Venables has been wanking over his computer he has left the real
thing alone.

That, I think is very much to the point. Like those sex dolls made to
look like children: the people who use them are leaving the real thing
alone.

except TPTB don't see it that way

(I make no comment as to which side of the argument is right here)

tim

Peter Percival

2018-04-13 21:45:53 UTC

Post by The Todal
s. 69(1) of the Serious Crime Act 2015
Possession of paedophile manual
(1)It is an offence to be in possession of any item that contains
advice or guidance about abusing children sexually.
(2)It is a defence for a person (D) charged with an offence under
this section—
(a)to prove that D had a legitimate reason for being in possession of
the item;
(b)to prove that—
(i)D had not read, viewed or (as appropriate) listened to the item, and
(ii)D did not know, and had no reason to suspect, that it contained
advice or guidance about abusing children sexually; or
(c)to prove that—
(i)the item was sent to D without any request made by D or on D’s
behalf, and
(ii)D did not keep it for an unreasonable time.

This is bordering on Lady Chatterly's Lover.
I really can't see that any writings on any subject can possibly be
illegal. The Yanks wouldn't allow this interference with their rights
to Freedom of Expression.

What do the words 'manual' and 'advice or guidance' suggest in relation
to a book?

Suppose I'm an author and I want to write a novel about someone who
frequently sexually abuses children and gets away with it. I may be
quite at a loss to think up abuse scenarios in which the abuser is at a
tiny risk of being caught. The manual would be of use to me and my
usage of it would be innocuous.

(Naturally, the way to plausibly have one's character get away with
frequently sexually abusing children is to make him an MP.)

Brian Reay

2018-04-16 15:47:02 UTC