prison for not paying council tax

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/cumbrian-man-jailed-for-not-paying-council-tax-1.764230?referrerPath=news
John McDougall, 42, of Gelt Road, Brampton, owed Carlisle City Council
£278.69 worth of council tax when he was found guilty of not paying it
following a trial at Carlisle Magistrates’ Court in July.
McDougall was ordered to pay £40 every two weeks or face 28 days in
jail – but the court heard that he had failed to make most of those
payments.
As a result he was arrested and taken back to court, where District
Judge Gerald Chalk sent him to prison for 26 days.

It's probably because the 40 every two weeks is not manageable. Jail is
a stupid non-solution - better to make people do some community service
- at least they would be paying something back, not just sitting in
prison costing the taxpayer money.

tim....

2010-10-01 11:41:45 UTC

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/cumbrian-man-jailed-for-not-paying-council-tax-1.764230?referrerPath=news
John McDougall, 42, of Gelt Road, Brampton, owed Carlisle City Council
£278.69 worth of council tax when he was found guilty of not paying it
following a trial at Carlisle Magistrates Court in July.
McDougall was ordered to pay £40 every two weeks or face 28 days in
jail but the court heard that he had failed to make most of those
payments.
As a result he was arrested and taken back to court, where District
Judge Gerald Chalk sent him to prison for 26 days.

It's probably because the 40 every two weeks is not manageable. Jail is a
stupid non-solution - better to make people do some community service - at
least they would be paying something back, not just sitting in prison
costing the taxpayer money.

Prison is very rarely imposed upon CT non payers who can't pay. It is
usually only used for people who don't pay because of some principled belief
that they don't have to

tim

Maria

2010-10-01 11:53:23 UTC

Post by tim....

It's probably because the 40 every two weeks is not manageable. Jail is a
stupid non-solution - better to make people do some community service - at
least they would be paying something back, not just sitting in prison
costing the taxpayer money.

Prison is very rarely imposed upon CT non payers who can't pay. It is
usually only used for people who don't pay because of some principled belief
that they don't have to

From close family experience, the prison sentence is to enforce the
order that was imposed in the first place, if unpaid. Someone on
incapacity benefit is not automatically assumed to be considered unable
to pay, as someone on a means-tested benefit is.
TV licensing doesn't care about ability to pay at all - a friend did a
week in Holloway for non-payment of TV license fine (and her 4 children
were taken into care while she did the sentence). That was years ago - I
don't know how many people these days go to prison for non-payment of TV
licensing fine.

harry

2010-10-01 14:04:08 UTC

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/cumbrian-man-jailed-for-not-paying-...
John McDougall, 42, of Gelt Road, Brampton, owed Carlisle City Council
£278.69 worth of council tax when he was found guilty of not paying it
following a trial at Carlisle Magistrates’ Court in July.
McDougall was ordered to pay £40 every two weeks or face 28 days in
jail – but the court heard that he had failed to make most of those
payments.
As a result he was arrested and taken back to court, where District
Judge Gerald Chalk sent him to prison for 26 days

It's probably because the 40 every two weeks is not manageable. Jail is a
stupid non-solution - better to make people do some community service - at
least they would be paying something back, not just sitting in prison
costing the taxpayer money.

Prison is very rarely imposed upon CT non payers who can't pay. It is
usually only used for people who don't pay because of some principled belief
that they don't have to

You don't have to own or watch TV. You do need a roof over your head.

Maria

2010-10-01 14:07:35 UTC

It's probably because the 40 every two weeks is not manageable. Jail is a
stupid non-solution - better to make people do some community service - at
least they would be paying something back, not just sitting in prison
costing the taxpayer money.

Prison is very rarely imposed upon CT non payers who can't pay. It is
usually only used for people who don't pay because of some principled belief
that they don't have to

You don't have to own or watch TV. You do need a roof over your head.

Fair enough. The point is, what to do with people who do break the rules.

JMS

2010-10-04 23:00:10 UTC

On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 15:07:35 +0100, Maria <***@heel.org> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Maria
Fair enough. The point is, what to do with people who do break the rules.

You are always critical of such matters - with no solutions yourself.

What would *you* suggest for people who refuse to buy a TV licence?

What would *you* suggest for people who refuse to pay council tax?

AlanG

2010-10-05 10:48:49 UTC

Post by JMS
<snip>

Post by Maria
Fair enough. The point is, what to do with people who do break the rules.

You are always critical of such matters - with no solutions yourself.
What would *you* suggest for people who refuse to buy a TV licence?

Abolish the TV license. Give the PSB a billion out of general taxation

Post by JMS
What would *you* suggest for people who refuse to pay council tax?

Abolish council tax.

Maria

2010-10-05 11:30:15 UTC

Post by JMS
<snip>

Post by Maria
Fair enough. The point is, what to do with people who do break the rules.

You are always critical of such matters - with no solutions yourself.

Wrong.

Post by JMS
What would *you* suggest for people who refuse to buy a TV licence?
What would *you* suggest for people who refuse to pay council tax?

My solution is further down the thread from some days ago. I can't be
bothered to post it again for people who can't be bothered to read it.

JMS

2010-10-05 14:14:09 UTC

Post by JMS
<snip>

Post by Maria
Fair enough. The point is, what to do with people who do break the rules.

You are always critical of such matters - with no solutions yourself.

Wrong.

Post by JMS
What would *you* suggest for people who refuse to buy a TV licence?
What would *you* suggest for people who refuse to pay council tax?

My solution is further down the thread from some days ago. I can't be
bothered to post it again for people who can't be bothered to read it.

Unless you are suggesting that those who do not want to pay Council
tax or Television licence should just do Community Service instead of
paying those taxes - rather than as a penalty

You have certainly made no other suggestion.

So over to you for clarification.

Brimstone

2010-10-05 17:49:39 UTC

Post by JMS
<snip>

Post by Maria
Fair enough. The point is, what to do with people who do break the rules.

You are always critical of such matters - with no solutions yourself.
What would *you* suggest for people who refuse to buy a TV licence?

Buying a TV licence is not compulsory. I don't have, TV licencing know I
don't have one and have done nothing about it.

Post by JMS
What would *you* suggest for people who refuse to pay council tax?

For a start, find out why they're not paying.

Adrian

2010-10-05 17:51:57 UTC

Post by JMS
What would *you* suggest for people who refuse to buy a TV licence?

Buying a TV licence is not compulsory. I don't have, TV licencing know I
don't have one and have done nothing about it.

I think there may have been a subtle assumption of TV ownership...

Post by JMS
What would *you* suggest for people who refuse to pay council tax?

For a start, find out why they're not paying.

Umm, perhaps it's because they're selfish tits who think they shouldn't
have to?

Brimstone

2010-10-05 18:34:17 UTC

Post by JMS
What would *you* suggest for people who refuse to buy a TV licence?

Buying a TV licence is not compulsory. I don't have, TV licencing know I
don't have one and have done nothing about it.

I think there may have been a subtle assumption of TV ownership...

Hush child.

Post by JMS
What would *you* suggest for people who refuse to pay council tax?

For a start, find out why they're not paying.

Umm, perhaps it's because they're selfish tits who think they shouldn't
have to?

And perhaps there are other reasons, too complex for you to understand.

Adrian

2010-10-05 18:42:47 UTC

Post by JMS
What would *you* suggest for people who refuse to pay council tax?

For a start, find out why they're not paying.

Umm, perhaps it's because they're selfish tits who think they shouldn't
have to?

And perhaps there are other reasons, too complex for you to understand.

<waits>

Brimstone

2010-10-05 20:33:50 UTC

Post by JMS
What would *you* suggest for people who refuse to pay council tax?

For a start, find out why they're not paying.

Umm, perhaps it's because they're selfish tits who think they shouldn't
have to?

And perhaps there are other reasons, too complex for you to understand.

<waits>

Can you hold your breath at the same time?

Adrian

2010-10-05 20:37:16 UTC

Post by JMS
What would *you* suggest for people who refuse to pay council tax?

For a start, find out why they're not paying.

Umm, perhaps it's because they're selfish tits who think they
shouldn't have to?

And perhaps there are other reasons, too complex for you to
understand.

<waits>

Can you hold your breath at the same time?

Probably safer if I don't, eh?

Brimstone

2010-10-05 20:43:36 UTC

Post by JMS
What would *you* suggest for people who refuse to pay council tax?

For a start, find out why they're not paying.

Umm, perhaps it's because they're selfish tits who think they
shouldn't have to?

And perhaps there are other reasons, too complex for you to
understand.

<waits>

Can you hold your breath at the same time?

Probably safer if I don't, eh?

Only for you.

Adrian

2010-10-01 14:23:14 UTC

From close family experience, the prison sentence is to enforce the
order that was imposed in the first place, if unpaid. Someone on
incapacity benefit is not automatically assumed to be considered unable
to pay, as someone on a means-tested benefit is. TV licensing doesn't
care about ability to pay at all - a friend did a week in Holloway for
non-payment of TV license fine (and her 4 children were taken into care
while she did the sentence). That was years ago - I don't know how many
people these days go to prison for non-payment of TV licensing fine.

You don't have to own or watch TV. You do need a roof over your head.

Well, no, you don't _HAVE_ to. Many people survive without one. Some even
prefer it.

But that's kinda beside the point. EVERYBODY _can_ pay Council Tax. Some
people choose to prioritise their limited funds differently, and their
choices may mean they don't have enough to pay for it on top of all the
things they believe are higher priorities. That's different to not being
able to afford it.

Fredxx

2010-10-01 14:41:45 UTC

Post by Maria
From close family experience, the prison sentence is to enforce the
order that was imposed in the first place, if unpaid. Someone on
incapacity benefit is not automatically assumed to be considered unable
to pay, as someone on a means-tested benefit is. TV licensing doesn't
care about ability to pay at all - a friend did a week in Holloway for
non-payment of TV license fine (and her 4 children were taken into care
while she did the sentence). That was years ago - I don't know how many
people these days go to prison for non-payment of TV licensing fine.

You don't have to own or watch TV. You do need a roof over your head.

Well, no, you don't _HAVE_ to. Many people survive without one. Some even
prefer it.
But that's kinda beside the point. EVERYBODY _can_ pay Council Tax. Some
people choose to prioritise their limited funds differently, and their
choices may mean they don't have enough to pay for it on top of all the
things they believe are higher priorities. That's different to not being
able to afford it.

If council tax benefit was retrospective I would agree with you. But its
quite easy to get in arrears with no income if you're not aware, or unable
to cope with benefits.

Have you actually seen how many pages some benefit claim forms are? My last
one was 38 pages, not good for the environment!!

Adrian

2010-10-01 14:51:22 UTC

Post by Fredxx

Post by Adrian
But that's kinda beside the point. EVERYBODY _can_ pay Council Tax.
Some people choose to prioritise their limited funds differently, and
their choices may mean they don't have enough to pay for it on top of
all the things they believe are higher priorities. That's different to
not being able to afford it.

If council tax benefit was retrospective I would agree with you.

The prison sentence isn't imposed because somebody's a few weeks late
with a payment. It's imposed because they've consistently not paid the
fines they received for consistently not paying their council tax.

This particular guy was fined in July, but I'd lay money on the payments
he missed not being this year.

AlanG

2010-10-01 15:50:20 UTC

From close family experience, the prison sentence is to enforce the
order that was imposed in the first place, if unpaid. Someone on
incapacity benefit is not automatically assumed to be considered unable
to pay, as someone on a means-tested benefit is. TV licensing doesn't
care about ability to pay at all - a friend did a week in Holloway for
non-payment of TV license fine (and her 4 children were taken into care
while she did the sentence). That was years ago - I don't know how many
people these days go to prison for non-payment of TV licensing fine.

You don't have to own or watch TV. You do need a roof over your head.

Well, no, you don't _HAVE_ to. Many people survive without one. Some even
prefer it.
But that's kinda beside the point. EVERYBODY _can_ pay Council Tax.

No they can't

Post by Adrian
Some
people choose to prioritise their limited funds differently, and their
choices may mean they don't have enough to pay for it on top of all the
things they believe are higher priorities.

Like eating and keeping warm in winter

Post by Adrian
That's different to not being
able to afford it.

AlanG

2010-10-01 15:48:07 UTC

On Fri, 1 Oct 2010 12:41:45 +0100, "tim...."

Post by tim....

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/cumbrian-man-jailed-for-not-paying-council-tax-1.764230?referrerPath=news
John McDougall, 42, of Gelt Road, Brampton, owed Carlisle City Council
£278.69 worth of council tax when he was found guilty of not paying it
following a trial at Carlisle Magistrates Court in July.
McDougall was ordered to pay £40 every two weeks or face 28 days in
jail but the court heard that he had failed to make most of those
payments.
As a result he was arrested and taken back to court, where District
Judge Gerald Chalk sent him to prison for 26 days.

It's probably because the 40 every two weeks is not manageable. Jail is a
stupid non-solution - better to make people do some community service - at
least they would be paying something back, not just sitting in prison
costing the taxpayer money.

Prison is very rarely imposed upon CT non payers who can't pay. It is
usually only used for people who don't pay because of some principled belief
that they don't have to

Rarely but not never.
And not a sentence that should be imposed for such a small amount. 2
months tax. It could be recovered from his earnings. If he is not
earning then the application of a prison sentence is even worse.

It is still a bad tax.

Rasta Pickles

2010-10-02 18:18:45 UTC

Post by tim....
Prison is very rarely imposed upon CT non payers who can't pay

Can you hear yourself?

AlanG

2010-10-01 14:43:24 UTC

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/cumbrian-man-jailed-for-not-paying-council-tax-1.764230?referrerPath=news
John McDougall, 42, of Gelt Road, Brampton, owed Carlisle City Council
£278.69 worth of council tax when he was found guilty of not paying it
following a trial at Carlisle Magistrates Court in July.
McDougall was ordered to pay £40 every two weeks or face 28 days in
jail but the court heard that he had failed to make most of those
payments.
As a result he was arrested and taken back to court, where District
Judge Gerald Chalk sent him to prison for 26 days.

It's probably because the 40 every two weeks is not manageable.

Indeed. That was my first thought

Post by Maria
Jail is
a stupid non-solution - better to make people do some community service
- at least they would be paying something back, not just sitting in
prison costing the taxpayer money.

Better to abolish the tax and take it out of income tax

Mel Rowing

2010-10-01 16:00:43 UTC

If payment of Council tax were voluntary then it would become a
subscription and nobody would pay it.

The guy's personal circumstances would have been taken into account
when the £20 pw (in effect) order was made.

Had he really been unable to meet £20 pw then surely he would have
been on rent & rate rebate anyway.

The fact is some could have £1000 pw coming in but they still would
not have enough to meet their dues.

All the same Council tax is a lousy system of raising revenue. The
problem with it is that too few people actually pay it. It is
iniquitous. Local taxes should be paid by all earners.

Maria

2010-10-01 16:34:23 UTC

If payment of Council tax were voluntary then it would become a
subscription and nobody would pay it.

Of course. So...?

Post by Mel Rowing
The guy's personal circumstances would have been taken into account
when the £20 pw (in effect) order was made

Really. Then why are so many fine payments reduced at a later date when
they realise the person cannot afford it? You submit financial details
to the court, and it looks like the person cannot afford to pay
anything. If that happens, the payment will not be reduced to zero...

Post by Mel Rowing
Had he really been unable to meet £20 pw then surely he would have
been on rent& rate rebate anyway.

Yes, but that still leaves a portion of CT and rent to pay on certain
benefits.

Post by Mel Rowing
The fact is some could have £1000 pw coming in but they still would
not have enough to meet their dues.

Then those costs are not reasonable. We are talking about taking
reasonable costs and other essential debts (e.g. gas, electricity,
water, CSA etc) into account.

Post by Mel Rowing
All the same Council tax is a lousy system of raising revenue. The
problem with it is that too few people actually pay it. It is
iniquitous. Local taxes should be paid by all earners.

The issue tends to be with those who are not earning.

Mel Rowing

2010-10-01 22:03:04 UTC

Post by Mel Rowing
If payment of Council tax were voluntary then it would become a
subscription and nobody would pay it.

Of course. So...?

Well is a system where nobody pays and everybody takes sustainable?

Post by Mel Rowing
The guy's personal circumstances would have been taken into account
when the £20 pw (in effect) order was made

Affordability is subjective and a fine is supposed to be a punishment.
It is supposed to deny the convict of that which the fine would buy.

Post by Mel Rowing
Had he really been unable to meet £20 pw then surely he would have
been on rent& rate rebate anyway.

Yes, but that still leaves a portion of CT and rent to pay on certain
benefits.

It puzzles me that someone who cannot find £20/wk (how many cigs does
that add up to?) should be eligible for Council tax in the first
place.

Post by Mel Rowing
The fact is some could have £1000 pw coming in but they still would
not have enough to meet their dues.

Then those costs are not reasonable. We are talking about taking
reasonable costs and other essential debts (e.g. gas, electricity,
water, CSA etc) into account.

We live well on considerably less than £1000 pw. of course we could
spend over this amount and still not have enough to manage. It's easy!

The issue tends to be with those who are not earning.

If this guy pays Council tax then I would presume he is earning.

harry

2010-10-01 18:01:25 UTC

If payment of Council tax were voluntary then it would become a
subscription and nobody would pay it.
The guy's personal circumstances would have been taken into account
when the £20 pw (in effect) order was made.
Had he really been unable to meet £20 pw then surely he would have
been on rent & rate rebate anyway.
The fact is some could have £1000 pw coming in but they still would
not have enough to meet their dues.
All the same Council tax is a lousy system of raising revenue. The
problem with it is that too few people actually pay it. It is
iniquitous. Local taxes should be paid by all earners.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Poll tax?

Mel Rowing

2010-10-01 20:46:25 UTC

Poll tax?

Community charge!

What was wrong with that? It was an attempt to make the councillors
(the spenders) more accountable to the funders of their nonsenses. Why
should those who contribute nothing have the same say as those who
fund council services.

One of the problems of today is that there are more and more takers
and fewer and fewer providers. It's beginning to wear a little thin on
the providers,

Joe

2010-10-02 10:28:11 UTC

Post by Mel Rowing
One of the problems of today is that there are more and more takers
and fewer and fewer providers. It's beginning to wear a little thin on
the providers,

A couple of years ago, I thought Gordon would be the one to go down in
history as being the person who ended the UK welfare state, but it still
seems to be limping on. But I still think the end, when it comes, will
be surprisingly fast and might be triggered by almost anything.

--
Joe

Jethro

2010-10-05 11:34:57 UTC

Poll tax?

Community charge!
What was wrong with that? It was an attempt to make the councillors
(the spenders) more accountable to the funders of their nonsenses. Why
should those who contribute nothing have the same say as those who
fund council services.
One of the problems of today is that there are more and more takers
and fewer and fewer providers. It's beginning to wear a little thin on
the providers,

The problem with the CC is that it was aimed at *people*. Who tend to
move around. As such the "system" was destined to failure, even
without the popular protest, as it is just not possible to track
people accurately with respect to a geographical location for a year.
Time has dimmed the details, but I recall several student friends (I
had started working so just paid for where I lived) managing to escape
paying as they simply told their home and student councils they were
living at the other address.

In my borough, the most popular non violent protest was to pay each
installment when you got the final demand. Each time. I vaguely recall
the local press running stories of the extra temps recruited solely to
deal with the paperwork the CC generated.

A property based tax is easier to administer, as whatever the status
of the occupants, the house can't move (practically !). I have always
wondered why the end point of non-payment of council tax for a
property shouldn't be seizure and sale of the property by the council ?

Rasta Pickles

2010-10-02 18:23:06 UTC

If payment of Council tax were voluntary then it would become a
subscription and nobody would pay it.
The guy's personal circumstances would have been taken into account
when the £20 pw (in effect) order was made.
Had he really been unable to meet £20 pw then surely he would have
been on rent & rate rebate anyway.
The fact is some could have £1000 pw coming in but they still would
not have enough to meet their dues.
All the same Council tax is a lousy system of raising revenue. The
problem with it is that too few people actually pay it. It is
iniquitous. Local taxes should be paid by all earners.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

My wife and I don't have kids.

We both pay for private gym memberships.

So.......tell me why I should have to pay a council tax that is
largely funding schools, libraries (never use them) and community
health centres (again, never use them).

The only "benefits" I get from my local authority seem to be street
lighting and refuse collection.

And for that I have to pay £135 a month?

Someone's having a laugh.

TimB

2010-10-04 13:36:19 UTC

Post by Rasta Pickles

If payment of Council tax were voluntary then it would become a
subscription and nobody would pay it.
The guy's personal circumstances would have been taken into account
when the £20 pw (in effect) order was made.
Had he really been unable to meet £20 pw then surely he would have
been on rent & rate rebate anyway.
The fact is some could have £1000 pw coming in but they still would
not have enough to meet their dues.
All the same Council tax is a lousy system of raising revenue. The
problem with it is that too few people actually pay it. It is
iniquitous. Local taxes should be paid by all earners.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

My wife and I don't have kids.
We both pay for private gym memberships.
So.......tell me why I should have to pay a council tax that is
largely funding schools, libraries (never use them) and community
health centres (again, never use them).
The only "benefits" I get from my local authority seem to be street
lighting and refuse collection.
And for that I have to pay £135 a month?
Someone's having a laugh.

You could always drop the private gym memberships and use the
community facilities. After all, you're paying for them...

AlanG

2010-10-04 13:50:50 UTC

Post by TimB

Post by Rasta Pickles

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/cumbrian-man-jailed-for-not-paying-...
John McDougall, 42, of Gelt Road, Brampton, owed Carlisle City Council
£278.69 worth of council tax when he was found guilty of not paying it
following a trial at Carlisle Magistrates Court in July.
McDougall was ordered to pay £40 every two weeks or face 28 days in
jail but the court heard that he had failed to make most of those
payments.
As a result he was arrested and taken back to court, where District
Judge Gerald Chalk sent him to prison for 26 days.

If payment of Council tax were voluntary then it would become a
subscription and nobody would pay it.
The guy's personal circumstances would have been taken into account
when the £20 pw (in effect) order was made.
Had he really been unable to meet £20 pw then surely he would have
been on rent & rate rebate anyway.
The fact is some could have £1000 pw coming in but they still would
not have enough to meet their dues.
All the same Council tax is a lousy system of raising revenue. The
problem with it is that too few people actually pay it. It is
iniquitous. Local taxes should be paid by all earners.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

My wife and I don't have kids.
We both pay for private gym memberships.
So.......tell me why I should have to pay a council tax that is
largely funding schools, libraries (never use them) and community
health centres (again, never use them).
The only "benefits" I get from my local authority seem to be street
lighting and refuse collection.
And for that I have to pay £135 a month?
Someone's having a laugh.

You could always drop the private gym memberships and use the
community facilities. After all, you're paying for them...

So are the rest of us.
We pay a subsidy through council tax for the local leisure centre,
arts centre, municipal golf course, civic theatre, library and parks.

With the exception of the latter two items which are free we cannot
afford to use the rest except on very rare occasions.

Jethro

2010-10-05 11:21:33 UTC

If payment of Council tax were voluntary then it would become a
subscription and nobody would pay it.
The guy's personal circumstances would have been taken into account
when the £20 pw (in effect) order was made.
Had he really been unable to meet £20 pw then surely he would have
been on rent & rate rebate anyway.
The fact is some could have £1000 pw coming in but they still would
not have enough to meet their dues.
All the same Council tax is a lousy system of raising revenue. The
problem with it is that too few people actually pay it. It is
iniquitous. Local taxes should be paid by all earners

like the poll tax ?

The problem with your suggestion is that you then get the *non*
earners voting in ludicrously extravagent administrations, safe in the
knowledge they won't have to pick up the bill.

I wonder about the practicalities of introducing some sort of utility
tax, based on services consumed at an address ? Say 5%. So for every
pound you spend on electricity, water, gas, telephone, internet
service, cable/satellite tv, 5p goes to local government. If you
assume richer people use more utilities, and the inbuilt incentive to
save energy, it's not *im*possible.

Of course there will be howls from those losing out, but in any
restructuring of CT, somebody has to lose. One of the popular driers
towards the poll tax was the archetypal image of a little old lady
rattling aroung in a mansion paying more in rates than a family of 5
in a small semi. Clearly the poll tax was aimed at the little old lady
vote. Unfortunately for the conservatives, they were shocked to
discover that the country had far more 5 people families than little
old ladies.

Joe

2010-10-05 15:30:08 UTC

Post by Jethro
I wonder about the practicalities of introducing some sort of utility
tax, based on services consumed at an address ? Say 5%. So for every
pound you spend on electricity, water, gas, telephone, internet
service, cable/satellite tv, 5p goes to local government. If you
assume richer people use more utilities, and the inbuilt incentive to
save energy, it's not *im*possible.

Of course it's not impossible, it's already happening, and it's a lot
higher than 5%. Ever heard of income tax? National Insurance?
*Employers* National Insurance? VAT?

For every additional pound that the large majority of people spend on
the things you mention, the government picks up almost 64 pence extra
from their employer in terms of taxes on income, that's before you start
counting the VAT. The providers of the last three services you mentioned
see only about 85 pence of that pound, little more than half of what had
to be earned to pay for it. Even the providers of the 'essential'
services are charging 5% VAT and the energy suppliers are also paying a
'renewables' tax. Or rather, you are.

As I am my employer, I tend to see the cost of things in terms of how
much I have to earn to pay for them, not how many pounds actually leave
my bank account.

And central government taxation is still the place most council funding
comes from. The last government significantly reduced the grants to
councils, which is why council taxes have risen so fast, though I didn't
recall seeing a corresponding cut in the income taxes.

--
Joe

Jethro

2010-10-05 19:11:47 UTC

Post by Joe

Of course it's not impossible, it's already happening, and it's a lot
higher than 5%. Ever heard of income tax? National Insurance?
*Employers* National Insurance? VAT?

But these are *national* taxes, going to *central* government. I was
proposing a *local* element, going to fund local governemnt.

Post by Joe
For every additional pound that the large majority of people spend on
the things you mention, the government picks up almost 64 pence extra
from their employer in terms of taxes on income, that's before you start
counting the VAT. The providers of the last three services you mentioned
see only about 85 pence of that pound, little more than half of what had
to be earned to pay for it. Even the providers of the 'essential'
services are charging 5% VAT and the energy suppliers are also paying a
'renewables' tax. Or rather, you are.
As I am my employer, I tend to see the cost of things in terms of how
much I have to earn to pay for them, not how many pounds actually leave
my bank account.
And central government taxation is still the place most council funding
comes from. The last government significantly reduced the grants to
councils, which is why council taxes have risen so fast, though I didn't
recall seeing a corresponding cut in the income taxes.

You are right, to an extent. However, no political party (least of all
the LibDems) will ever propose that x% of national taxes should go to
fund local government and abolish council tax, as it would remove any
semblance of local accountability from local spending.

Ishvara

2010-10-01 10:30:26 UTC

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?

Land value tax.

It'd be interesting to know if Vince Cable had this in mind when he
criticised income and corporation taxes at the LibDem conference.

True Blue

2010-10-01 10:58:31 UTC

Post by Ishvara

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?

Land value tax.

Cretin.

Post by Ishvara
It'd be interesting to know if Vince Cable had this in mind when he
criticised income and corporation taxes at the LibDem conference.

The only interesting thing about Vince Cable, is what sort of asinine
statement he'll come ouit with next.

aaa

2010-10-02 17:47:27 UTC

Post by True Blue

Post by Ishvara

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?

Land value tax.

Cretin.

Post by Ishvara
It'd be interesting to know if Vince Cable had this in mind when he
criticised income and corporation taxes at the LibDem conference.

The only interesting thing about Vince Cable, is what sort of asinine
statement he'll come ouit with next.

Vince Cable was one of the very few people in politics who predicted
the credit crunch.

William Black

2010-10-01 10:47:43 UTC

What penalty do you think is the correct one for consistently not paying
your taxes?

--
William Black

Free men have open minds
If you want loyalty, buy a dog...

Maria

2010-10-01 10:57:53 UTC

What penalty do you think is the correct one for consistently not paying
your taxes?

Not paying or not being able to pay?

William Black

2010-10-01 11:23:38 UTC

What penalty do you think is the correct one for consistently not paying
your taxes?

Not paying or not being able to pay?

One assumes that, as the ability to pay council tax is means tested,,
he refuses to pay.

--
William Black

Free men have open minds
If you want loyalty, buy a dog...

Maria

2010-10-01 11:38:00 UTC

What penalty do you think is the correct one for consistently not paying
your taxes?

Not paying or not being able to pay?

One assumes that, as the ability to pay council tax is means tested,, he
refuses to pay.

Except that incapacity benefit is not a means tested benefit, neither
does it cover the entire council tax (or housing cost) debt as it's
slightly more than JSA. This means that you have to pay the extra (and
extra rent) out of your benefit, and if you get in trouble, you cannot
even get it deducted at source.

AlanG

2010-10-01 15:52:19 UTC

On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 12:23:38 +0100, William Black

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/cumbrian-man-jailed-for-not-paying-council-tax-1.764230?referrerPath=news
John McDougall, 42, of Gelt Road, Brampton, owed Carlisle City Council
£278.69 worth of council tax when he was found guilty of not paying it
following a trial at Carlisle Magistrates Court in July.
McDougall was ordered to pay £40 every two weeks or face 28 days in
jail but the court heard that he had failed to make most of those
payments.
As a result he was arrested and taken back to court, where District
Judge Gerald Chalk sent him to prison for 26 days.

What penalty do you think is the correct one for consistently not paying
your taxes?

Not paying or not being able to pay?

One assumes that, as the ability to pay council tax is means tested,,
he refuses to pay.

As Maria reminded you, council tax benefit is not backdated.

Gaz

2010-10-02 17:45:51 UTC

Post by AlanG
On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 12:23:38 +0100, William Black

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/cumbrian-man-jailed-for-not-paying-council-tax-1.764230?referrerPath=news
John McDougall, 42, of Gelt Road, Brampton, owed Carlisle City
Council £278.69 worth of council tax when he was found guilty of
not paying it following a trial at Carlisle Magistrates' Court in
July.
McDougall was ordered to pay £40 every two weeks or face 28 days
in jail - but the court heard that he had failed to make most of
those payments.
As a result he was arrested and taken back to court, where
District Judge Gerald Chalk sent him to prison for 26 days.

What penalty do you think is the correct one for consistently not
paying your taxes?

Not paying or not being able to pay?

One assumes that, as the ability to pay council tax is means tested,,
he refuses to pay.

As Maria reminded you, council tax benefit is not backdated.

yes it is, you just have to have good reason.

AlanG

2010-10-02 18:09:18 UTC

Post by AlanG
On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 12:23:38 +0100, William Black

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/cumbrian-man-jailed-for-not-paying-council-tax-1.764230?referrerPath=news
John McDougall, 42, of Gelt Road, Brampton, owed Carlisle City
Council £278.69 worth of council tax when he was found guilty of
not paying it following a trial at Carlisle Magistrates' Court in
July.
McDougall was ordered to pay £40 every two weeks or face 28 days
in jail - but the court heard that he had failed to make most of
those payments.
As a result he was arrested and taken back to court, where
District Judge Gerald Chalk sent him to prison for 26 days.

What penalty do you think is the correct one for consistently not
paying your taxes?

Not paying or not being able to pay?

One assumes that, as the ability to pay council tax is means tested,,
he refuses to pay.

As Maria reminded you, council tax benefit is not backdated.

yes it is, you just have to have good reason.

Struggling to survive when first out of work has never been a good
reason. In fact I know someone who was in hospital having an operation
when her council tax claim came up for renewal. That wasn't accepted
as a good reason

Gaz

2010-10-02 18:37:09 UTC

Post by AlanG
On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 12:23:38 +0100, William Black

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/cumbrian-man-jailed-for-not-paying-council-tax-1.764230?referrerPath=news
John McDougall, 42, of Gelt Road, Brampton, owed Carlisle City
Council £278.69 worth of council tax when he was found guilty of
not paying it following a trial at Carlisle Magistrates' Court
in July.
McDougall was ordered to pay £40 every two weeks or face 28 days
in jail - but the court heard that he had failed to make most of
those payments.
As a result he was arrested and taken back to court, where
District Judge Gerald Chalk sent him to prison for 26 days.

What penalty do you think is the correct one for consistently not
paying your taxes?

Not paying or not being able to pay?

One assumes that, as the ability to pay council tax is means
tested,, he refuses to pay.

As Maria reminded you, council tax benefit is not backdated.

yes it is, you just have to have good reason.

That would be extraordinary and on the face of it unreasonable. Like all
councils, we send out a pretty stern letter for the first missed payment,
but the organisation will be flexible. If a resident of mine had such a
problem I would expect a better response.

I have only had occasion to assist someone in such a situation a few times,
but in all cases it was backdated.

AlanG

2010-10-03 10:19:23 UTC

Post by AlanG
On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 12:23:38 +0100, William Black

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/cumbrian-man-jailed-for-not-paying-council-tax-1.764230?referrerPath=news
John McDougall, 42, of Gelt Road, Brampton, owed Carlisle City
Council £278.69 worth of council tax when he was found guilty of
not paying it following a trial at Carlisle Magistrates' Court
in July.
McDougall was ordered to pay £40 every two weeks or face 28 days
in jail - but the court heard that he had failed to make most of
those payments.
As a result he was arrested and taken back to court, where
District Judge Gerald Chalk sent him to prison for 26 days.

What penalty do you think is the correct one for consistently not
paying your taxes?

Not paying or not being able to pay?

One assumes that, as the ability to pay council tax is means
tested,, he refuses to pay.

As Maria reminded you, council tax benefit is not backdated.

yes it is, you just have to have good reason.

That would be extraordinary and on the face of it unreasonable. Like all
councils, we send out a pretty stern letter for the first missed payment,
but the organisation will be flexible. If a resident of mine had such a
problem I would expect a better response.
I have only had occasion to assist someone in such a situation a few times,
but in all cases it was backdated.

I've known many people over the last 14 years who have had problems
with council tax. The local authorities simply do not care. If yours
does then it is an exception

Maria

2010-10-05 11:31:09 UTC

Post by AlanG
On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 12:23:38 +0100, William Black

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/cumbrian-man-jailed-for-not-paying-council-tax-1.764230?referrerPath=news
John McDougall, 42, of Gelt Road, Brampton, owed Carlisle City
Council £278.69 worth of council tax when he was found guilty of
not paying it following a trial at Carlisle Magistrates' Court in
July.
McDougall was ordered to pay £40 every two weeks or face 28 days
in jail - but the court heard that he had failed to make most of
those payments.
As a result he was arrested and taken back to court, where
District Judge Gerald Chalk sent him to prison for 26 days.

What penalty do you think is the correct one for consistently not
paying your taxes?

Not paying or not being able to pay?

One assumes that, as the ability to pay council tax is means tested,,
he refuses to pay.

As Maria reminded you, council tax benefit is not backdated.

yes it is, you just have to have good reason.

What qualifies as a good reason? My brother-in-law had a good reason,
but it was not backdated.

Rob

2010-10-01 11:06:24 UTC

William Black wrote:
|| On 01/10/10 11:02, AlanG wrote:
|||
||| Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was
||| found?
|||
|||
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/cumbrian-man-jailed-for-not-paying-council-tax-1.764230?referrerPath=news
||| John McDougall, 42, of Gelt Road, Brampton, owed Carlisle City
||| Council £278.69 worth of council tax when he was found guilty of
||| not paying it following a trial at Carlisle Magistrates Court in
||| July.
|||
||| McDougall was ordered to pay £40 every two weeks or face 28 days in
||| jail but the court heard that he had failed to make most of those
||| payments.
|||
||| As a result he was arrested and taken back to court, where District
||| Judge Gerald Chalk sent him to prison for 26 days.
||
|| What penalty do you think is the correct one for consistently not
|| paying your taxes?

Take it from their income at source or put a charge on any property they
own.

--
Rob

AlanG

2010-10-01 14:44:39 UTC

On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 11:47:43 +0100, William Black

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/cumbrian-man-jailed-for-not-paying-council-tax-1.764230?referrerPath=news
John McDougall, 42, of Gelt Road, Brampton, owed Carlisle City Council
£278.69 worth of council tax when he was found guilty of not paying it
following a trial at Carlisle Magistrates Court in July.
McDougall was ordered to pay £40 every two weeks or face 28 days in
jail but the court heard that he had failed to make most of those
payments.
As a result he was arrested and taken back to court, where District
Judge Gerald Chalk sent him to prison for 26 days.

What penalty do you think is the correct one for consistently not paying
your taxes?

A fine.
If they don't have the money they cannot pay the tax.

Ophelia

2010-10-01 14:52:54 UTC

Post by AlanG
On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 11:47:43 +0100, William Black

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/cumbrian-man-jailed-for-not-paying-council-tax-1.764230?referrerPath=news
John McDougall, 42, of Gelt Road, Brampton, owed Carlisle City Council
£278.69 worth of council tax when he was found guilty of not paying it
following a trial at Carlisle Magistrates' Court in July.
McDougall was ordered to pay £40 every two weeks or face 28 days in
jail - but the court heard that he had failed to make most of those
payments.
As a result he was arrested and taken back to court, where District
Judge Gerald Chalk sent him to prison for 26 days.

What penalty do you think is the correct one for consistently not paying
your taxes?

A fine.
If they don't have the money they cannot pay the tax.

Which begs the question... if they don't have the money, how can they pay
the fine?

--
--
https://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/

bod

2010-10-01 15:15:46 UTC

Post by Ophelia

Post by AlanG
On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 11:47:43 +0100, William Black

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/cumbrian-man-jailed-for-not-paying-council-tax-1.764230?referrerPath=news
John McDougall, 42, of Gelt Road, Brampton, owed Carlisle City Council
£278.69 worth of council tax when he was found guilty of not paying it
following a trial at Carlisle Magistrates' Court in July.
McDougall was ordered to pay £40 every two weeks or face 28 days in
jail - but the court heard that he had failed to make most of those
payments.
As a result he was arrested and taken back to court, where District
Judge Gerald Chalk sent him to prison for 26 days.

What penalty do you think is the correct one for consistently not paying
your taxes?

A fine.
If they don't have the money they cannot pay the tax.

Which begs the question... if they don't have the money, how can they
pay the fine?

Community service?

Bod

AlanG

2010-10-01 15:54:10 UTC

Post by Ophelia

Post by AlanG
On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 11:47:43 +0100, William Black

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/cumbrian-man-jailed-for-not-paying-council-tax-1.764230?referrerPath=news
John McDougall, 42, of Gelt Road, Brampton, owed Carlisle City Council
£278.69 worth of council tax when he was found guilty of not paying it
following a trial at Carlisle Magistrates' Court in July.
McDougall was ordered to pay £40 every two weeks or face 28 days in
jail - but the court heard that he had failed to make most of those
payments.
As a result he was arrested and taken back to court, where District
Judge Gerald Chalk sent him to prison for 26 days.

What penalty do you think is the correct one for consistently not paying
your taxes?

A fine.
If they don't have the money they cannot pay the tax.

Which begs the question... if they don't have the money, how can they pay
the fine?

Exactly.

There is something seriously wrong im a society that can tax someone
who cannot afford to pay

Adrian

2010-10-01 16:17:38 UTC

There is something seriously wrong im a society that can tax someone who
cannot afford to pay

You're right. There would be. If that was the case. Which it isn't.

AlanG

2010-10-01 17:40:52 UTC

There is something seriously wrong im a society that can tax someone who
cannot afford to pay

You're right. There would be. If that was the case. Which it isn't.

It obviously is or he would not be in jail

Adrian

2010-10-01 17:45:41 UTC

Post by AlanG
There is something seriously wrong im a society that can tax someone
who cannot afford to pay

You're right. There would be. If that was the case. Which it isn't.

It obviously is or he would not be in jail

You seem to be confused between "can't pay" and "won't pay".

AlanG

2010-10-01 17:59:45 UTC

Post by AlanG
There is something seriously wrong im a society that can tax someone
who cannot afford to pay

You're right. There would be. If that was the case. Which it isn't.

It obviously is or he would not be in jail

You seem to be confused between "can't pay" and "won't pay".

If he was earning enough the court could have made an attachment of
earnings order. If he had savings they could have raided his bank
account. As they did none of these it would seem he has no money and
no regular income.

Adrian

2010-10-01 18:04:59 UTC

Post by AlanG
There is something seriously wrong im a society that can tax someone
who cannot afford to pay

You're right. There would be. If that was the case. Which it isn't.

It obviously is or he would not be in jail

You seem to be confused between "can't pay" and "won't pay".

If he was earning enough the court could have made an attachment of
earnings order. If he had savings they could have raided his bank
account.

Riiiight.

Post by AlanG
As they did none of these it would seem he has no money and no regular
income.

So how come he isn't getting the whole of his council tax bill covered by
full council tax benefit, then?

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/life/benefits/
help_with_your_council_tax_council_tax_benefit.htm

"If you are getting Income Support, income-based Jobseeker’s Allowance,
income-related Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) or the guarantee
credit of Pension Credit, your benefit will cover the whole of your
Council Tax bill and you will have nothing to pay."

AlanG

2010-10-01 18:34:08 UTC

Post by AlanG
There is something seriously wrong im a society that can tax someone
who cannot afford to pay

You're right. There would be. If that was the case. Which it isn't.

It obviously is or he would not be in jail

You seem to be confused between "can't pay" and "won't pay".

If he was earning enough the court could have made an attachment of
earnings order. If he had savings they could have raided his bank
account.

Riiiight.

Post by AlanG
As they did none of these it would seem he has no money and no regular
income.

So how come he isn't getting the whole of his council tax bill covered by
full council tax benefit, then?

Probably because the council will not backdate his council tax benefit
to when he needed it

Post by Adrian
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/life/benefits/
help_with_your_council_tax_council_tax_benefit.htm
"If you are getting Income Support, income-based Jobseekers Allowance,
income-related Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) or the guarantee
credit of Pension Credit, your benefit will cover the whole of your
Council Tax bill and you will have nothing to pay."

Adrian

2010-10-01 18:37:47 UTC

Post by AlanG
There is something seriously wrong im a society that can tax
someone who cannot afford to pay

You're right. There would be. If that was the case. Which it isn't.

It obviously is or he would not be in jail

You seem to be confused between "can't pay" and "won't pay".

If he was earning enough the court could have made an attachment of
earnings order. If he had savings they could have raided his bank
account.

Riiiight.

Post by AlanG
As they did none of these it would seem he has no money and no regular
income.

So how come he isn't getting the whole of his council tax bill covered
by full council tax benefit, then?

Probably because the council will not backdate his council tax benefit
to when he needed it

I ask again - how long between his bill first becoming overdue and the
jailing for non-payment of the fines?

Gaz

2010-10-02 17:48:37 UTC

Post by AlanG
There is something seriously wrong im a society that can tax
someone who cannot afford to pay

You're right. There would be. If that was the case. Which it isn't.

It obviously is or he would not be in jail

You seem to be confused between "can't pay" and "won't pay".

If he was earning enough the court could have made an attachment of
earnings order. If he had savings they could have raided his bank
account.

Riiiight.

Post by AlanG
As they did none of these it would seem he has no money and no
regular income.

So how come he isn't getting the whole of his council tax bill
covered by full council tax benefit, then?

Probably because the council will not backdate his council tax benefit
to when he needed it

yes they would, if he had good reason it could be backdated six months.

AlanG

2010-10-02 18:09:59 UTC

Post by AlanG
There is something seriously wrong im a society that can tax
someone who cannot afford to pay

You're right. There would be. If that was the case. Which it isn't.

It obviously is or he would not be in jail

You seem to be confused between "can't pay" and "won't pay".

If he was earning enough the court could have made an attachment of
earnings order. If he had savings they could have raided his bank
account.

Riiiight.

Post by AlanG
As they did none of these it would seem he has no money and no
regular income.

So how come he isn't getting the whole of his council tax bill
covered by full council tax benefit, then?

Probably because the council will not backdate his council tax benefit
to when he needed it

yes they would, if he had good reason it could be backdated six months.

Could and would are not the same word even though they sound similar

Charles Bryant

2010-10-03 05:28:36 UTC

In article <***@mid.individual.net>, Gaz <***@msn.com> wrote:
}AlanG wrote:
..
}> Probably because the council will not backdate his council tax benefit
}> to when he needed it
}
}yes they would, if he had good reason it could be backdated six months.

Is that 'good reason' a good reason for needing the benefit or a good
reason for failing to claim it in good time? For example, if someone
would have been entitled to claim, genuinely has no money, but through
entirely their own fault stupidly fails to claim, would the benefit be
backdated once it is proven that they would have been entitled had they
claimed?

Gaz

2010-10-04 21:54:24 UTC

Post by Charles Bryant
..
}> Probably because the council will not backdate his council tax
benefit }> to when he needed it
}
}yes they would, if he had good reason it could be backdated six months.
Is that 'good reason' a good reason for needing the benefit or a good
reason for failing to claim it in good time? For example, if someone
would have been entitled to claim, genuinely has no money, but through
entirely their own fault stupidly fails to claim, would the benefit be
backdated once it is proven that they would have been entitled had
they claimed?

I think it is probably the latter.

®i©ardo

2010-10-03 11:44:02 UTC

Post by AlanG
There is something seriously wrong im a society that can tax someone
who cannot afford to pay

You're right. There would be. If that was the case. Which it isn't.

It obviously is or he would not be in jail

You seem to be confused between "can't pay" and "won't pay".

Or he has both but no bank account - or one that he keeps empty.

--
Moving things in still pictures

William Black

2010-10-01 18:12:30 UTC

Post by AlanG
On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 11:47:43 +0100, William Black

What penalty do you think is the correct one for consistently not paying
your taxes?

A fine.
If they don't have the money they cannot pay the tax.

Then they'll go to jail for not paying that fine.

They're still heading for prison.

--
William Black

Free men have open minds
If you want loyalty, buy a dog...

AlanG

2010-10-01 18:34:41 UTC

On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 19:12:30 +0100, William Black

Post by AlanG
On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 11:47:43 +0100, William Black

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/cumbrian-man-jailed-for-not-paying-council-tax-1.764230?referrerPath=news
John McDougall, 42, of Gelt Road, Brampton, owed Carlisle City Council
£278.69 worth of council tax when he was found guilty of not paying it
following a trial at Carlisle Magistrates Court in July.
McDougall was ordered to pay £40 every two weeks or face 28 days in
jail but the court heard that he had failed to make most of those
payments.
As a result he was arrested and taken back to court, where District
Judge Gerald Chalk sent him to prison for 26 days.

What penalty do you think is the correct one for consistently not paying
your taxes?

A fine.
If they don't have the money they cannot pay the tax.

Then they'll go to jail for not paying that fine.
They're still heading for prison.

whooosh

F*ck Off Uncle Dave

2010-10-01 20:52:52 UTC

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?

It is odd. I lived in Germany for some years and just paid tax. How
they split it up between state and city was of no concern to me. Is
it historical maybe? Of course, Tubolard and Co. would cry that
centralisation means loss of local control or some such bollocks, but
I don't see why you need the extra layer of bureaucracy. Yes, the
money should be spent locally by locally elected officials, but surely
it doesn't justify the cost to collect it separately. And to base it
on property values is simply medieval and seems deliberately obtuse.

F*UD

Gaz

2010-10-02 17:52:39 UTC

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?

Germanys local government gets most of its funding from a property tax,
levied on an indivuals home.

Gaz

Norman Wells

2010-10-02 18:09:06 UTC

Post by Gaz
Germanys local government gets most of its funding from a property
tax, levied on an indivuals home.

Have you lost your id, Gaz?

AlanG

2010-10-02 18:14:03 UTC

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?

Germanys local government gets most of its funding from a property tax,
levied on an indivuals home.

Germany used to have a law that let them gas people.

Gaz

2010-10-02 18:39:26 UTC

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?

It is odd. I lived in Germany for some years and just paid tax.
How they split it up between state and city was of no concern to
me. Is it historical maybe? Of course, Tubolard and Co. would cry
that centralisation means loss of local control or some such
bollocks, but I don't see why you need the extra layer of
bureaucracy. Yes, the money should be spent locally by locally
elected officials, but surely it doesn't justify the cost to
collect it separately. And to base it on property values is simply
medieval and seems deliberately obtuse.
F*UD

Germanys local government gets most of its funding from a property
tax, levied on an indivuals home.

Germany used to have a law that let them gas people.

I think you need to reread the point. I wasnt justifying the use of property
based tax because Germany uses it, but correcting the person who lived in
Germany and seems oblivious to the taxes he was paying.

AlanG

2010-10-03 10:20:46 UTC

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?

It is odd. I lived in Germany for some years and just paid tax.
How they split it up between state and city was of no concern to
me. Is it historical maybe? Of course, Tubolard and Co. would cry
that centralisation means loss of local control or some such
bollocks, but I don't see why you need the extra layer of
bureaucracy. Yes, the money should be spent locally by locally
elected officials, but surely it doesn't justify the cost to
collect it separately. And to base it on property values is simply
medieval and seems deliberately obtuse.
F*UD

Germanys local government gets most of its funding from a property
tax, levied on an indivuals home.

Germany used to have a law that let them gas people.

Good because any tax levied without taking account of ability to pay
is a bad tax

JNugent

2010-10-03 11:27:32 UTC

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?

It is odd. I lived in Germany for some years and just paid tax.
How they split it up between state and city was of no concern to
me. Is it historical maybe? Of course, Tubolard and Co. would cry
that centralisation means loss of local control or some such
bollocks, but I don't see why you need the extra layer of
bureaucracy. Yes, the money should be spent locally by locally
elected officials, but surely it doesn't justify the cost to
collect it separately. And to base it on property values is simply
medieval and seems deliberately obtuse.
F*UD

Germanys local government gets most of its funding from a property
tax, levied on an indivuals home.

Germany used to have a law that let them gas people.

Good because any tax levied without taking account of ability to pay
is a bad tax

I would agree with that last remark but I offer a little (suggested)
clarification.

A tax levied without:

(a) taking account of ability to pay it *out of current income* (as opposed
to paying it - whether now or later - out of capital or the present or future
value of one's home), or

(b) the possibility of simply (and lawfully) avoiding liability for that tax
without undue and disproportionate adverse effects on living standards,

is a bad tax.

Much, of course, depends on the meaning attributed to "undue" and
"disproportionate". But thinking laterally, a council unblushingly expecting
10% or more of a citizen's income may well serve as a good example of the
meaning of either word.

F*ck Off Uncle Dave

2010-10-02 22:32:18 UTC

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?

Germanys local government gets most of its funding from a property tax,
levied on an indivuals home.

Does it? Well I never paid it in the twelve years I was a German tax
payer. There was a small annual tax as a house owner which was around
€300 a year on our place but apart from that the only tax I paid was
income tax. My understanding is that income tax is paid to the local
Finanzamt who administer it for the federal authorities, giving unto
Schäuble what is Schäuble's and, presumably giving their bit to the
city, as sort of explained here -
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&langpair=de|en&u=http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finanzamt.
I've taken a look at last year's tax calculations and it doesn't make
any split. If you pay church tax, which I don't, that's shown
separately. I would ask my Germany tax accountant how it works, but
she'll charge me for the privilege and anyway, I'm off to bed.

F*UD

Gaz

2010-10-02 17:41:14 UTC

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?

No.

I am a member of CCC, and I can tell you it has one of the most generous
'anti poverty' strategies of any Council. It will do its best to accommodate
with citizens who struggle to pay and allow repayment over subsequent years.
The council funds an independent advice service in which residents can go
and get confidential and impartial advice if unable to make payments.

Legal action is only taken as a last resort, the clue was in the reporting
'repeatedly failed to pay tax'.

Try owing HMRC last quarters VAT and see how accommodating they are.

Gaz

AlanG

2010-10-02 18:13:10 UTC

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?

And has buggerall to do with regressive taxation that takes very
little account of ability to pay. The council has to follow the law.
Nothing else.

Post by Gaz
The council funds an independent advice service in which residents can go
and get confidential and impartial advice if unable to make payments.
Legal action is only taken as a last resort, the clue was in the reporting
'repeatedly failed to pay tax'.
Try owing HMRC last quarters VAT and see how accommodating they are.

If you owe the vat you collected it in sales

Maria

2010-10-03 11:42:48 UTC

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?

No.
I am a member of CCC, and I can tell you it has one of the most generous
'anti poverty' strategies of any Council. It will do its best to accommodate
with citizens who struggle to pay and allow repayment over subsequent years.
The council funds an independent advice service in which residents can go
and get confidential and impartial advice if unable to make payments.
Legal action is only taken as a last resort, the clue was in the reporting
'repeatedly failed to pay tax'.
Try owing HMRC last quarters VAT and see how accommodating they are.

Ours doesn't. Within two months of no payment, you get a summons, then
bailiffs adding anything from 60 - 100 a time for visits and charges.
You get no 'can we help' letters - you get pay up or else letters
automatically triggered by date. If you approach the council they say -
'sorry, it's with bailiffs now, can't do anything'. If you approach the
bailiffs, they will not agree affordable payments - they say it's up to
the council. A judgement usually happens at by July at the latest,
following the April when the tax becomes due. The last council I lived
under was the same.
It is pointless unless the person is not paying because they can't
afford it - for those struggling the instant involvement of bailiffs
means that the bill can double or even treble in a matter of months. How
is this possibly helping?

Peter

2010-10-04 12:58:07 UTC

In article <P6CdnXEpqv-***@bt.com>, ***@heel.org
says...

Post by AlanG
Isn't it time a better method of financing local government was found?

No.
I am a member of CCC, and I can tell you it has one of the most generous
'anti poverty' strategies of any Council. It will do its best to accommodate
with citizens who struggle to pay and allow repayment over subsequent years.
The council funds an independent advice service in which residents can go
and get confidential and impartial advice if unable to make payments.
Legal action is only taken as a last resort, the clue was in the reporting
'repeatedly failed to pay tax'.
Try owing HMRC last quarters VAT and see how accommodating they are.

--
Pete Ives
Remove All_stRESS before sending me an email

Ian

2010-10-04 16:46:51 UTC

"Peter" <***@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message news:***@news.virginmedia.com...
In article <P6CdnXEpqv-***@bt.com>, ***@heel.org
says...