Discussion:
Homeowner arrested for defending himself
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Incubus
2018-04-04 11:55:32 UTC
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Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to defend
ourselves or our property.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
Davey
2018-04-04 11:57:11 UTC
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On Wed, 4 Apr 2018 11:55:32 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to
defend ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
I hope that this is the normal action of the police when a death
occurs, and that things work out for the better once the investigation
is complete.
--
Davey.
Martin Brown
2018-04-04 12:05:54 UTC
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Post by Davey
On Wed, 4 Apr 2018 11:55:32 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to
defend ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
I hope that this is the normal action of the police when a death
occurs, and that things work out for the better once the investigation
is complete.
It seems excessive given that the old guy was potentially fighting for
his life against two assailants one of them armed with a screwdriver.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Jethro_uk
2018-04-04 12:15:01 UTC
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Post by Martin Brown
Post by Davey
On Wed, 4 Apr 2018 11:55:32 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to
defend ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-
burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Davey
I hope that this is the normal action of the police when a death
occurs, and that things work out for the better once the investigation
is complete.
It seems excessive given that the old guy was potentially fighting for
his life against two assailants one of them armed with a screwdriver.
Well, on the face of it. It's not unknown for initial reports to be
wildly inaccurate - and that's before vested interests are pissing in the
publicity pool. The sad fate of Jean Charles de Menezes should have
taught us to take "first reports" with an oceanful of salt.
abelard
2018-04-04 12:21:29 UTC
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On Wed, 4 Apr 2018 12:15:01 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
Post by Incubus
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Davey
On Wed, 4 Apr 2018 11:55:32 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to
defend ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-
burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Davey
I hope that this is the normal action of the police when a death
occurs, and that things work out for the better once the investigation
is complete.
It seems excessive given that the old guy was potentially fighting for
his life against two assailants one of them armed with a screwdriver.
Well, on the face of it. It's not unknown for initial reports to be
wildly inaccurate - and that's before vested interests are pissing in the
publicity pool. The sad fate of Jean Charles de Menezes should have
taught us to take "first reports" with an oceanful of salt.
terrorist lives matter

illegal lives matter

road users lives matter


from unreliable sources:-
"According to the Home Office, he arrived in Britain on 13 March 2002,
on a six-month visitor's visa. After its expiry, he applied to stay on
as a student, and was granted permission to remain until 30 June 2003.
The Home Office said it had no record of any further correspondence,
but added: 'We have seen a copy of Mr Menezes' passport, containing a
stamp apparently giving him indefinite leave to remain in the UK. On
investigation, this stamp was not one that was in use by the
Immigration and Nationality Directorate on the date given.' This was
denied by the family of Menezes; and Foreign Secretary Jack Straw
stated that he believed Menezes was living in the UK legally, but had
no precise information to confirm this. Immigration records show that
Menezes entered the Republic of Ireland from France on 23 April 2005.
There are no records to show the exact date that he returned to the
UK; however, under the Common Travel Area system, a foreign citizen
entering the UK through the Republic of Ireland has an automatic right
to remain for three months. Therefore, Menezes was lawfully in the UK
on the day he was killed, even if the stamp in his passport recording
indefinite leave to remain had been a forgery."
--
www.abelard.org
Judith
2018-04-04 16:12:03 UTC
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On Wed, 4 Apr 2018 13:05:54 +0100, Martin Brown
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Davey
On Wed, 4 Apr 2018 11:55:32 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to
defend ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
I hope that this is the normal action of the police when a death
occurs, and that things work out for the better once the investigation
is complete.
It seems excessive given that the old guy was potentially fighting for
his life against two assailants one of them armed with a screwdriver.
You are obviously aware of more of the facts than the police were.
BurfordTJustice
2018-04-04 16:25:19 UTC
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"Judith" <***@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: On Wed, 4 Apr 2018 13:05:54 +0100, Martin Brown
: <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
:
: >On 04/04/2018 12:57, Davey wrote:
: >> On Wed, 4 Apr 2018 11:55:32 -0000 (UTC)
: >> Incubus <***@gmail.com> wrote:
: >>
: >>> Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to
: >>> defend ourselves or our property.
: >>>
: >>>
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
: >>
: >> I hope that this is the normal action of the police when a death
: >> occurs, and that things work out for the better once the investigation
: >> is complete.
: >
: >It seems excessive given that the old guy was potentially fighting for
: >his life against two assailants one of them armed with a screwdriver.
:
:
: You are obviously aware of more of the facts than the police were.
:
Martin Brown
2018-04-05 07:54:03 UTC
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Post by Judith
On Wed, 4 Apr 2018 13:05:54 +0100, Martin Brown
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Davey
On Wed, 4 Apr 2018 11:55:32 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to
defend ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
I hope that this is the normal action of the police when a death
occurs, and that things work out for the better once the investigation
is complete.
I would have a bit more confidence in the police if they were checking
out known associates of dead burglar to find the other perpetrator.
Post by Judith
Post by Martin Brown
It seems excessive given that the old guy was potentially fighting for
his life against two assailants one of them armed with a screwdriver.
You are obviously aware of more of the facts than the police were.
If he had killed them *both* then that would have been unreasonable
force but outnumbered and trapped in his own home he had little choice
but to make sure that the first one he took down did not get up again.

I can't see that this will progress to trial and if it does I don't
believe that any reasonable jury will convict him. Any of us could find
ourselves facing this sort of situation at night - are we supposed to
just give in and wait to be tortured by burglars to get bank card PINs?
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Jethro_uk
2018-04-05 08:49:05 UTC
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Post by Martin Brown
If he had killed them *both* then that would have been unreasonable
force
Not necessarily ... it's quite plausible that while he was struggling
with one intruder - ultimately killing him - the other intruder was
making his way upstairs (where we are told the householders disabled wife
was in bed).

If the householder, fearing for the life of his wife, ran after the
intruder and planted a knife in their back, it would be defensible as
necessity.

I guess there is a legal oddity there ? The first death would be self
defence, but the second necessity ?
Mike Swift
2018-04-04 12:06:29 UTC
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In article <pa2ein$d80$***@dont-email.me>, Davey <***@example.invalid>
writes
Post by Incubus
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to
defend ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-burglar-
stabbed-death-break-in.html
I hope that this is the normal action of the police when a death occurs, and
that things work out for the better once the investigation is complete.
The police seem to have the arrest first, investigate later mind set.

Mike
--
Michael Swift We do not regard Englishmen as foreigners.
Kirkheaton We look on them only as rather mad Norwegians.
Yorkshire Halvard Lange
abelard
2018-04-04 12:10:32 UTC
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Post by Mike Swift
writes
Post by Incubus
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to
defend ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-burglar-
stabbed-death-break-in.html
I hope that this is the normal action of the police when a death occurs, and
that things work out for the better once the investigation is complete.
The police seem to have the arrest first, investigate later mind set.
he might have attacked a policemen....

police lives matter
--
www.abelard.org
BurfordTJustice
2018-04-04 20:34:03 UTC
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Post by Mike Swift
writes
Post by Incubus
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to
defend ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-burglar-
stabbed-death-break-in.html
I hope that this is the normal action of the police when a death occurs, and
that things work out for the better once the investigation is complete.
The police seem to have the arrest first, investigate later mind set.
It is the only way a suspect can be detained without his consent and also be
interviewed under caution. It does not mean he will be convicted of anything
or even charged. He was initially arrested *on suspicion* of causing GBH.

Self defence is only legitimate provided the means used are proportionate to
the threat offered. In this case, apparently there were two burglars. The
one in question threatened the householder with a sharpened screwdriver. The
fatal stabbing came as a result of a struggle for possession of this weapon.
The other burglar fled.

The deceased apparently escaped as well but was caught by police called to
the scene suffering from chest wound from which he subsequently died after
being taken to hospital from a wound caused by the screwdriver the burglar
had carried to the scene.

If these are the facts of the case, then it is unlikely that the case will
get beyond the CPS.
Handsome Jack
2018-04-04 14:43:10 UTC
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Post by Davey
On Wed, 4 Apr 2018 11:55:32 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to
defend ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-b
urglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
I hope that this is the normal action of the police when a death
occurs,
Including when a death is caused by a policeman?
Post by Davey
and that things work out for the better once the investigation
is complete.
Sure, there's no problems in being arrested and held for a few days. No
repercussions whatsoever.
--
Jack
BurfordTJustice
2018-04-04 15:55:33 UTC
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Unless you happen to have a job and get sacked for missing...WTF??

Not all are on the dole like you.


"Handsome Jack" <***@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:EfX8ezB+***@none.demon.co.uk...
: Davey <***@example.invalid> posted
: >On Wed, 4 Apr 2018 11:55:32 -0000 (UTC)
: >Incubus <***@gmail.com> wrote:
: >
: >> Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to
: >> defend ourselves or our property.
: >>
: >>
: >>http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-b
: >>urglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
: >>
: >>
: >
: >I hope that this is the normal action of the police when a death
: >occurs,
:
: Including when a death is caused by a policeman?
:
: >and that things work out for the better once the investigation
: >is complete.
:
: Sure, there's no problems in being arrested and held for a few days. No
: repercussions whatsoever.
:
: --
: Jack
abelard
2018-04-04 12:01:23 UTC
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On Wed, 4 Apr 2018 11:55:32 -0000 (UTC), Incubus
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to defend
ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
criminal lives matter
--
www.abelard.org
Svenne
2018-04-04 18:05:12 UTC
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Post by abelard
criminal lives matter
As far as I am concerned someone who invades my home does not have a
right to life until the danger he represents is neutralised with a 100%
certainty.

Achieving that 100% certainty would be my first priority and the life,
health and wellbeing of the intruder would not be a factor I would take
into account.
abelard
2018-04-04 18:11:12 UTC
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Post by Svenne
Post by abelard
criminal lives matter
As far as I am concerned someone who invades my home does not have a
right to life until the danger he represents is neutralised with a 100%
certainty.
Achieving that 100% certainty would be my first priority and the life,
health and wellbeing of the intruder would not be a factor I would take
into account.
the life of matter matters
--
www.abelard.org
Svenne
2018-04-04 18:35:26 UTC
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Post by abelard
the life of matter matters
Matter might not even exist other than an artefact of mind.
abelard
2018-04-04 20:31:44 UTC
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Post by Svenne
Post by abelard
the life of matter matters
Matter might not even exist other than an artefact of mind.
that doesn't matter...it still matters
--
www.abelard.org
Svenne
2018-04-04 22:38:13 UTC
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Post by abelard
Post by Svenne
Post by abelard
the life of matter matters
Matter might not even exist other than an artefact of mind.
that doesn't matter...it still matters
Quite, even artefacts of the mind matter, at least to the minds in which
they are artefacts
abelard
2018-04-04 22:57:10 UTC
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Post by Svenne
Post by abelard
Post by Svenne
Post by abelard
the life of matter matters
Matter might not even exist other than an artefact of mind.
that doesn't matter...it still matters
Quite, even artefacts of the mind matter, at least to the minds in which
they are artefacts
i don't mind a bit as long as all matters mind and all minds matter
--
www.abelard.org
Vidcapper
2018-04-05 06:43:55 UTC
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Post by abelard
Post by Svenne
Post by abelard
Post by Svenne
Post by abelard
the life of matter matters
Matter might not even exist other than an artefact of mind.
that doesn't matter...it still matters
Quite, even artefacts of the mind matter, at least to the minds in which
they are artefacts
i don't mind a bit as long as all matters mind and all minds matter
This is why I hate metaphysics! :p
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
abelard
2018-04-05 08:08:06 UTC
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Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
Post by Svenne
Post by abelard
Post by Svenne
Post by abelard
the life of matter matters
Matter might not even exist other than an artefact of mind.
that doesn't matter...it still matters
Quite, even artefacts of the mind matter, at least to the minds in which
they are artefacts
i don't mind a bit as long as all matters mind and all minds matter
This is why I hate metaphysics! :p
but the problems still need demonstrating!
--
www.abelard.org
Vidcapper
2018-04-05 13:42:19 UTC
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Post by abelard
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
Post by Svenne
Post by abelard
Post by Svenne
Post by abelard
the life of matter matters
Matter might not even exist other than an artefact of mind.
that doesn't matter...it still matters
Quite, even artefacts of the mind matter, at least to the minds in which
they are artefacts
i don't mind a bit as long as all matters mind and all minds matter
This is why I hate metaphysics! :p
but the problems still need demonstrating!
Bob Knauer always used to drive me nuts, arguing in defence of
metaphysics...
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
BurfordTJustice
2018-04-05 13:48:34 UTC
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"Vidcapper" <***@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:6JpxC.432851$***@fx28.am4...
: On 05/04/2018 09:08, abelard wrote:
: > On Thu, 5 Apr 2018 07:43:55 +0100, Vidcapper <***@yahoo.co.uk>
: > wrote:
: >
: >> On 04/04/2018 23:57, abelard wrote:
: >>> On Wed, 4 Apr 2018 22:38:13 -0000 (UTC), Svenne <***@aol.co> wrote:
: >>>
: >>>> On Wed, 04 Apr 2018 22:31:44 +0200, abelard wrote:
: >>>>
: >>>>> On Wed, 4 Apr 2018 18:35:26 -0000 (UTC), Svenne <***@aol.co>
wrote:
: >>>>>
: >>>>>> On Wed, 04 Apr 2018 20:11:12 +0200, abelard wrote:
: >>>>>>
: >>>>>>> the life of matter matters
: >>>>>>
: >>>>>> Matter might not even exist other than an artefact of mind.
: >>>>>
: >>>>> that doesn't matter...it still matters
: >>>>
: >>>> Quite, even artefacts of the mind matter, at least to the minds in
which
: >>>> they are artefacts
: >>>
: >>> i don't mind a bit as long as all matters mind and all minds matter
: >
: >> This is why I hate metaphysics! :p
: >
: > but the problems still need demonstrating!
: >
:
: Bob Knauer always used to drive me nuts, arguing in defence of
: metaphysics...
:
:
:
: --
:
: Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
Svenne
2018-04-05 09:15:10 UTC
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Post by abelard
Post by Svenne
Post by abelard
Post by Svenne
Post by abelard
the life of matter matters
Matter might not even exist other than an artefact of mind.
that doesn't matter...it still matters
Quite, even artefacts of the mind matter, at least to the minds in which
they are artefacts
i don't mind a bit as long as all matters mind and all minds matter
Unfortunately all minds don't matter, at least in my mind.
abelard
2018-04-05 09:24:47 UTC
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Post by Svenne
Post by abelard
Post by Svenne
Post by abelard
Post by Svenne
Post by abelard
the life of matter matters
Matter might not even exist other than an artefact of mind.
that doesn't matter...it still matters
Quite, even artefacts of the mind matter, at least to the minds in which
they are artefacts
i don't mind a bit as long as all matters mind and all minds matter
Unfortunately all minds don't matter, at least in my mind.
it is a moral imperative that all minds matter...
but especially consider the matter of the minds of the oppressed and
downhearted

just think of your rewards in valhallah...
--
www.abelard.org
Ophelia
2018-04-04 19:03:35 UTC
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Post by abelard
criminal lives matter
As far as I am concerned someone who invades my home does not have a
right to life until the danger he represents is neutralised with a 100%
certainty.

Achieving that 100% certainty would be my first priority and the life,
health and wellbeing of the intruder would not be a factor I would take
into account.

===

From what I read, the burglar had a sharpened screw drive and he was using
it to threaten him.

He managed to get it off him. That couldn't have happened without a fight.

What the hell was he supposed to do?
Svenne
2018-04-04 19:22:36 UTC
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Post by Ophelia
From what I read, the burglar had a sharpened screw drive and he was
using it to threaten him.
He managed to get it off him. That couldn't have happened without a fight.
What the hell was he supposed to do?
He would not have been arrested if he'd not resisted and passively
allowed himself to be killed or badly injured. That would be the only way
of avoiding the full force of the law.
abelard
2018-04-04 20:33:18 UTC
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Post by Svenne
Post by Ophelia
From what I read, the burglar had a sharpened screw drive and he was
using it to threaten him.
He managed to get it off him. That couldn't have happened without a fight.
What the hell was he supposed to do?
He would not have been arrested if he'd not resisted and passively
allowed himself to be killed or badly injured. That would be the only way
of avoiding the full force of the law.
you must wait for the government to rescue you....

it is not your place to usurp the government...that is treason
--
www.abelard.org
Ophelia
2018-04-04 20:42:26 UTC
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Post by Ophelia
From what I read, the burglar had a sharpened screw drive and he was
using it to threaten him.
He managed to get it off him. That couldn't have happened without a fight.
What the hell was he supposed to do?
He would not have been arrested if he'd not resisted and passively
allowed himself to be killed or badly injured. That would be the only way
of avoiding the full force of the law.

==

So it seems!
johnny-knowall
2018-04-04 20:55:05 UTC
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Post by Svenne
Post by Ophelia
From what I read, the burglar had a sharpened screw drive and he was
using it to threaten him.
He managed to get it off him. That couldn't have happened without a
fight.
What the hell was he supposed to do?
He would not have been arrested if he'd not resisted and passively
allowed himself to be killed or badly injured. That would be the only way
of avoiding the full force of the law.
==
So it seems!
How can they charge the poor sod with murder?

I doubt that he intended to kill anyone. He just wanted them out of his
house.

Are the police hoping that if threatened with a murder charge, he will plead
guilty to manslaughter due to diminished responsibility caused by severe
panic? Another tick in the plod’s crime solved box.
Ophelia
2018-04-04 20:58:41 UTC
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Post by Svenne
Post by Ophelia
From what I read, the burglar had a sharpened screw drive and he was
using it to threaten him.
He managed to get it off him. That couldn't have happened without a
fight.
What the hell was he supposed to do?
He would not have been arrested if he'd not resisted and passively
allowed himself to be killed or badly injured. That would be the only way
of avoiding the full force of the law.
==
So it seems!
How can they charge the poor sod with murder?

I doubt that he intended to kill anyone. He just wanted them out of his
house.

Are the police hoping that if threatened with a murder charge, he will plead
guilty to manslaughter due to diminished responsibility caused by severe
panic? Another tick in the plod’s crime solved box.

==

Yes! It's a damned disgrace:( It's as Svenne said. He was supposed to sit
there and let them kill him.
Norman Wells
2018-04-04 21:41:13 UTC
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Post by johnny-knowall
How can they charge the poor sod with murder?
I doubt that he intended to kill anyone. He just wanted them out of his
house.
Are the police hoping that if threatened with a murder charge, he will plead
guilty to manslaughter due to diminished responsibility caused by severe
panic? Another tick in the plod’s crime solved box.
He will plead self-defence, and will probably succeed. His case may
even clarify the fog that the Tony Martin case left a few years ago, and
that would be welcome.
Vidcapper
2018-04-05 06:55:49 UTC
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Post by Norman Wells
Post by johnny-knowall
How can they charge the poor sod with murder?
I doubt that he intended to kill anyone. He just wanted them out of his
house.
Are the police hoping that if threatened with a murder charge, he will plead
guilty to manslaughter due to diminished responsibility caused by severe
panic? Another tick in the plod’s crime solved box.
He will plead self-defence, and will probably succeed. His case may
even clarify the fog that the Tony Martin case left a few years ago, and
that would be welcome.
I doubt it'll ever get as far as court - from what I've read, it is
clearly a case of legitimate self-defence.
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
johnny-knowall
2018-04-05 07:58:40 UTC
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Post by johnny-knowall
How can they charge the poor sod with murder?
I doubt that he intended to kill anyone. He just wanted them out of his
house.
Are the police hoping that if threatened with a murder charge, he will plead
guilty to manslaughter due to diminished responsibility caused by severe
panic? Another tick in the plod’s crime solved box.
He will plead self-defence, and will probably succeed. His case may
even clarify the fog that the Tony Martin case left a few years ago, and
that would be welcome.
Although the Tony Martin case was somewhat different in that the weapon used
there was a gun.

It could be argued that shooting someone is not always self defence. Just
pointing a gun at someone, or deliberately firing over their heads should be
enough to deter a burglar.

Stabbing an intruder with a screwdriver in a scuffle is not on the same level
of pre-meditated violence.
Svenne
2018-04-05 09:10:54 UTC
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Post by johnny-knowall
It could be argued that shooting someone is not always self defence.
Just pointing a gun at someone, or deliberately firing over their heads
should be enough to deter a burglar.
If the intruder didn't have a gun then shooting them in the lower abdomen
would be the better alternative. It would blow their balls off and make
them incapable of attacking you and you couldn't be charged with murder
since they would still be alive. It would also help their karma as they
would spend the rest of their lives shitting in a plastic bag while
reflecting on their evil ways.
Incubus
2018-04-05 13:02:04 UTC
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Post by johnny-knowall
How can they charge the poor sod with murder?
I doubt that he intended to kill anyone. He just wanted them out of his
house.
Are the police hoping that if threatened with a murder charge, he will plead
guilty to manslaughter due to diminished responsibility caused by severe
panic? Another tick in the plod’s crime solved box.
He will plead self-defence, and will probably succeed. His case may even
clarify the fog that the Tony Martin case left a few years ago, and that
would be welcome.
Didn't Tony Martin fire when the burglar's back was turned?
Svenne
2018-04-04 22:34:57 UTC
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Post by johnny-knowall
Are the police hoping that if threatened with a murder charge, he will
plead guilty to manslaughter due to diminished responsibility caused by
severe panic? Another tick in the plod’s crime solved box.
The guy is lucky the police disclosed to the defence that the person he
stabbed was a burglar who broke into his home armed with a sharpened
screwdriver. They could have withheld that and swore under oath the guy
confessed to premeditated murder under interrogation. Oh, wait, the
police don't do verballing any longer so the police have to rely on
withholding evidence of innocence nowadays.
Vidcapper
2018-04-05 07:02:08 UTC
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Post by Svenne
Post by johnny-knowall
Are the police hoping that if threatened with a murder charge, he will
plead guilty to manslaughter due to diminished responsibility caused by
severe panic? Another tick in the plod’s crime solved box.
The guy is lucky the police disclosed to the defence that the person he
stabbed was a burglar who broke into his home armed with a sharpened
screwdriver. They could have withheld that and swore under oath the guy
confessed to premeditated murder under interrogation. Oh, wait, the
police don't do verballing any longer so the police have to rely on
withholding evidence of innocence nowadays.
An anti-police attitude like that is not at all useful. The police would
gain nothing but public distrust if they fitted up an innocent victim.
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
Ophelia
2018-04-04 12:50:54 UTC
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"Incubus" wrote in message news:pa2efk$rib$***@dont-email.me...

Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to defend
ourselves or our property.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html

==

Yes, I saw that!!! Seems we have to allow anyone to come into our home, to
threaten us, steal from us and then we must smile nicely and say nothing!!

Bugger that!
R. Mark Clayton
2018-04-04 15:52:56 UTC
Reply
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Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to defend
ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
There was a homicide and [only] the deceased was found bleeding in the street.

The old man at least admitted stabbing him, so a visit to the police station, if not arrest was indicated.

If the reported circumstances are correct then: -

1. The two men were engaged in an aggravated burglary in residential premises at night.
2. One was armed with a screwdriver.
3. He 'forced' the householder into the kitchen.
4. The householder defended himself, his property [and possibly other occupants] with a knife, probably picked up in the kitchen.

which means the action was self defence and the inquest result should be lawful homicide (formerly justifiable homicide).

In this case the inquest should come first, thus obviating the need for a trial.

The circumstances may be different to those reported - Tony Martin tried this, but in his case: -

Although there were two would be thieves: -

He wasn't in his house.
The trespassers were unarmed.
He had an illegal gun.
He shot his child victim in the back as he was running away.
He had boasted that he would kill the next trespasser on his farm.
He instructed his lawyers to run the wrong defence.
BurfordTJustice
2018-04-04 16:26:18 UTC
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"R. Mark Clayton" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:bfd05823-c64f-4e76-88e2-***@googlegroups.com...
: On Wednesday, 4 April 2018 12:55:34 UTC+1, Incubus wrote:
: > Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to
defend
: > ourselves or our property.
: >
: >
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
:
: There was a homicide and [only] the deceased was found bleeding in the
street.
:
: The old man at least admitted stabbing him, so a visit to the police
station, if not arrest was indicated.
:
: If the reported circumstances are correct then: -
:
: 1. The two men were engaged in an aggravated burglary in residential
premises at night.
: 2. One was armed with a screwdriver.
: 3. He 'forced' the householder into the kitchen.
: 4. The householder defended himself, his property [and possibly other
occupants] with a knife, probably picked up in the kitchen.
:
: which means the action was self defence and the inquest result should be
lawful homicide (formerly justifiable homicide).
:
: In this case the inquest should come first, thus obviating the need for a
trial.
:
: The circumstances may be different to those reported - Tony Martin tried
this, but in his case: -
:
: Although there were two would be thieves: -
:
: He wasn't in his house.
: The trespassers were unarmed.
: He had an illegal gun.
: He shot his child victim in the back as he was running away.
: He had boasted that he would kill the next trespasser on his farm.
: He instructed his lawyers to run the wrong defence.
tim...
2018-04-05 11:27:37 UTC
Reply
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Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to defend
ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
There was a homicide and [only] the deceased was found bleeding in the street.
The old man at least admitted stabbing him, so a visit to the police
station, if not arrest was indicated.
If the reported circumstances are correct then: -
1. The two men were engaged in an aggravated burglary in residential premises at night.
2. One was armed with a screwdriver.
3. He 'forced' the householder into the kitchen.
4. The householder defended himself, his property [and possibly other
occupants] with a knife, probably picked up in the kitchen.
which means the action was self defence and the inquest result should be
lawful homicide (formerly justifiable homicide).
In this case the inquest should come first, thus obviating the need for a trial.
The circumstances may be different to those reported - Tony Martin tried
this, but in his case: -
Although there were two would be thieves: -
He wasn't in his house.
The trespassers were unarmed.
He had an illegal gun.
He shot his child victim in the back as he was running away.
He had boasted that he would kill the next trespasser on his farm.
He instructed his lawyers to run the wrong defence.
hardly relevant as there is no workable defence for shooting someone running
away, in the back.

tim
Jethro_uk
2018-04-05 12:48:35 UTC
Reply
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Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to
defend ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-
burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
Post by tim...
Post by R. Mark Clayton
There was a homicide and [only] the deceased was found bleeding in the street.
The old man at least admitted stabbing him, so a visit to the police
station, if not arrest was indicated.
If the reported circumstances are correct then: -
1. The two men were engaged in an aggravated burglary in residential premises at night.
2. One was armed with a screwdriver.
3. He 'forced' the householder into the kitchen.
4. The householder defended himself, his property [and possibly other
occupants] with a knife, probably picked up in the kitchen.
which means the action was self defence and the inquest result should
be lawful homicide (formerly justifiable homicide).
In this case the inquest should come first, thus obviating the need for a trial.
The circumstances may be different to those reported - Tony Martin
tried this, but in his case: -
Although there were two would be thieves: -
He wasn't in his house.
The trespassers were unarmed.
He had an illegal gun.
He shot his child victim in the back as he was running away.
He had boasted that he would kill the next trespasser on his farm.
He instructed his lawyers to run the wrong defence.
hardly relevant as there is no workable defence for shooting someone
running away, in the back.
tim
Unless they are also running *towards* someone and presenting a risk to
that person ????
JNugent
2018-04-05 11:59:47 UTC
Reply
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Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to defend
ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
There was a homicide and [only] the deceased was found bleeding in the street.
The old man at least admitted stabbing him, so a visit to the police station, if not arrest was indicated.
If the reported circumstances are correct then: -
1. The two men were engaged in an aggravated burglary in residential premises at night.
2. One was armed with a screwdriver.
3. He 'forced' the householder into the kitchen.
4. The householder defended himself, his property [and possibly other occupants] with a knife, probably picked up in the kitchen.
which means the action was self defence and the inquest result should be lawful homicide (formerly justifiable homicide).
In this case the inquest should come first, thus obviating the need for a trial.
The circumstances may be different to those reported - Tony Martin tried this, but in his case: -
Although there were two would be thieves: -
He wasn't in his house.
The trespassers were unarmed.
He had an illegal gun.
He shot his child victim in the back as he was running away.
He had boasted that he would kill the next trespasser on his farm.
He instructed his lawyers to run the wrong defence.
"child" is piling it on a bit thick.
R. Mark Clayton
2018-04-05 15:49:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by JNugent
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to defend
ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
There was a homicide and [only] the deceased was found bleeding in the street.
The old man at least admitted stabbing him, so a visit to the police station, if not arrest was indicated.
If the reported circumstances are correct then: -
1. The two men were engaged in an aggravated burglary in residential premises at night.
2. One was armed with a screwdriver.
3. He 'forced' the householder into the kitchen.
4. The householder defended himself, his property [and possibly other occupants] with a knife, probably picked up in the kitchen.
which means the action was self defence and the inquest result should be lawful homicide (formerly justifiable homicide).
In this case the inquest should come first, thus obviating the need for a trial.
The circumstances may be different to those reported - Tony Martin tried this, but in his case: -
Although there were two would be thieves: -
He wasn't in his house.
The trespassers were unarmed.
He had an illegal gun.
He shot his child victim in the back as he was running away.
He had boasted that he would kill the next trespasser on his farm.
He instructed his lawyers to run the wrong defence.
"child" is piling it on a bit thick.
My memory of the case - I thought the victim was 15, but actually he was 16.
BurfordTJustice
2018-04-04 15:53:46 UTC
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Been that way for a while.

The sheep allowed it to happen.


"Incubus" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:pa2efk$rib$***@dont-email.me...
: Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to
defend
: ourselves or our property.
:
:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
:
:
Nightjar
2018-04-04 16:11:23 UTC
Reply
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Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to defend
ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
We all have a right to defend ourselves, using reasonable force, which
may include lethal force. The fact that he has been arrested suggests
that the police think that he went well beyond what was reasonable.
--
--

Colin Bignell
BurfordTJustice
2018-04-04 16:26:51 UTC
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No longer true inthe UK..



"Nightjar" <***@bignell.me.uk> wrote in message news:luadnT7U-tC3ZFnHnZ2dnUU7-***@giganews.com...
: On 04-Apr-18 12:55 PM, Incubus wrote:
: > Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to
defend
: > ourselves or our property.
: >
: >
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
: >
: >
:
: We all have a right to defend ourselves, using reasonable force, which
: may include lethal force. The fact that he has been arrested suggests
: that the police think that he went well beyond what was reasonable.
:
: --
: --
:
: Colin Bignell
Vidcapper
2018-04-05 07:03:50 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Nightjar
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to defend
ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
We all have a right to defend ourselves, using reasonable force, which
may include lethal force. The fact that he has been arrested suggests
that the police think that he went well beyond what was reasonable.
I don't think that can be inferred at all - it is standard procedure to
arrest someone in these circumstances.
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
abelard
2018-04-05 08:09:37 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Vidcapper
Post by Nightjar
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to defend
ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
We all have a right to defend ourselves, using reasonable force, which
may include lethal force. The fact that he has been arrested suggests
that the police think that he went well beyond what was reasonable.
I don't think that can be inferred at all - it is standard procedure to
arrest someone in these circumstances.
arrest is not charged
--
www.abelard.org
Mike Swift
2018-04-05 10:57:04 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by abelard
Post by Vidcapper
Post by Nightjar
We all have a right to defend ourselves, using reasonable force, which
may include lethal force. The fact that he has been arrested suggests
that the police think that he went well beyond what was reasonable.
I don't think that can be inferred at all - it is standard procedure to
arrest someone in these circumstances.
arrest is not charged
There was a discussion in here some time ago about Visa Waiver to enter
the USA and it was said if you had an arrest on your record you were
stuffed.

Is this still in force?

Mike
--
Michael Swift We do not regard Englishmen as foreigners.
Kirkheaton We look on them only as rather mad Norwegians.
Yorkshire Halvard Lange
Jethro_uk
2018-04-05 11:15:13 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Mike Swift
Post by abelard
Post by Vidcapper
Post by Nightjar
We all have a right to defend ourselves, using reasonable force,
which may include lethal force. The fact that he has been arrested
suggests that the police think that he went well beyond what was
reasonable.
I don't think that can be inferred at all - it is standard procedure to
arrest someone in these circumstances.
arrest is not charged
There was a discussion in here some time ago about Visa Waiver to enter
the USA and it was said if you had an arrest on your record you were
stuffed.
Is this still in force?
Mike
Only for crimes of "moral turpitude" I believe ....
abelard
2018-04-05 11:40:15 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Mike Swift
Post by abelard
Post by Vidcapper
Post by Nightjar
We all have a right to defend ourselves, using reasonable force, which
may include lethal force. The fact that he has been arrested suggests
that the police think that he went well beyond what was reasonable.
I don't think that can be inferred at all - it is standard procedure to
arrest someone in these circumstances.
arrest is not charged
There was a discussion in here some time ago about Visa Waiver to enter
the USA and it was said if you had an arrest on your record you were
stuffed.
Is this still in force?
if our the wonderful police arrest you, it is obvious they have good
cause...they may well let you go after finger printing and dnaing
and photoing you...

they will of course then destroy all that under the data protection
acts if they don't charge you...

and the tooth fairy will leave you 50p if you lose a tooth..
--
www.abelard.org
Vidcapper
2018-04-05 13:39:11 UTC
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Post by abelard
and the tooth fairy will leave you 50p if you lose a tooth..
There's obviously been a lot of inflation - back when I was a kid I
think I got a sixpence. :)
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
BurfordTJustice
2018-04-05 13:49:05 UTC
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"Vidcapper" <***@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:aGpxC.432850$***@fx28.am4...
: On 05/04/2018 12:40, abelard wrote:
: >
: > and the tooth fairy will leave you 50p if you lose a tooth..
: >
:
: There's obviously been a lot of inflation - back when I was a kid I
: think I got a sixpence. :)
:
:
:
: --
:
: Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
tim...
2018-04-05 14:59:34 UTC
Reply
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Post by abelard
and the tooth fairy will leave you 50p if you lose a tooth..
There's obviously been a lot of inflation - back when I was a kid I think
I got a sixpence. :)
wasnt it mean to be a silver threepence

tim
abelard
2018-04-05 16:11:55 UTC
Reply
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Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
and the tooth fairy will leave you 50p if you lose a tooth..
There's obviously been a lot of inflation - back when I was a kid I
think I got a sixpence. :)
6d before the war when you were shedding teeth was about £1
now...that's not wage inflation it's full on austerity
--
www.abelard.org
Mike Swift
2018-04-06 00:17:04 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by abelard
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
and the tooth fairy will leave you 50p if you lose a tooth..
There's obviously been a lot of inflation - back when I was a kid I
think I got a sixpence. :)
6d before the war when you were shedding teeth was about £1
now...that's not wage inflation it's full on austerity
Youngest Granddaughter was away visiting relatives in Wales this Easter
so took the chocolate eggs to her last night, we were greeted with a
smile missing two front teeth.

Inflation must not be too bad as she said she got a pound per tooth.

I don't think she believed me when I said we tied cotton round a wonky
tooth, tied it to a door and slammed it shut to remove it, she just got
hold of it and pulled it out, and they say children today are soft :-)

Mike
--
Michael Swift We do not regard Englishmen as foreigners.
Kirkheaton We look on them only as rather mad Norwegians.
Yorkshire Halvard Lange
Norman Wells
2018-04-06 08:00:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mike Swift
Post by abelard
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
and the tooth fairy will leave you 50p if you lose a tooth..
There's obviously been a lot of inflation - back when I was a kid I
think I got a sixpence. :)
6d before the war when you were shedding teeth was about £1
   now...that's not wage inflation it's full on austerity
Youngest Granddaughter was away visiting relatives in Wales this Easter
so took the chocolate eggs to her last night, we were greeted with a
smile missing two front teeth.
That could be worrying if she's over 18.
abelard
2018-04-06 09:10:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mike Swift
Post by abelard
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
and the tooth fairy will leave you 50p if you lose a tooth..
There's obviously been a lot of inflation - back when I was a kid I
think I got a sixpence. :)
6d before the war when you were shedding teeth was about £1
now...that's not wage inflation it's full on austerity
Youngest Granddaughter was away visiting relatives in Wales this Easter
so took the chocolate eggs to her last night, we were greeted with a
smile missing two front teeth.
Inflation must not be too bad as she said she got a pound per tooth.
that's much more like it
Post by Mike Swift
I don't think she believed me when I said we tied cotton round a wonky
tooth, tied it to a door and slammed it shut to remove it, she just got
hold of it and pulled it out, and they say children today are soft :-)
the oldsters need their myths to comfort them
--
www.abelard.org
JNugent
2018-04-05 12:01:42 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Mike Swift
Post by abelard
Post by Vidcapper
Post by Nightjar
We all have a right to defend ourselves, using reasonable force, which
may include lethal force. The fact that he has been arrested suggests
that the police think that he went well beyond what was reasonable.
I don't think that can be inferred at all - it is standard procedure to
arrest someone in these circumstances.
arrest is not charged
There was a discussion in here some time ago about Visa Waiver to enter
the USA and it was said if you had an arrest on your record you were
stuffed.
Is this still in force?
"In force" to the extent that it is how USA federal law operates, yes.

But an arrest can, AIUI, be nullified (hence the term "de-arrest") and
it is thn possible to declare that one has not been arrested.
Nightjar
2018-04-05 10:41:16 UTC
Reply
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Post by Vidcapper
Post by Nightjar
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to defend
ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
We all have a right to defend ourselves, using reasonable force, which
may include lethal force. The fact that he has been arrested suggests
that the police think that he went well beyond what was reasonable.
I don't think that can be inferred at all - it is standard procedure to
arrest someone in these circumstances.
Even though it starts the clock ticking as to when they have to be
released or charged?
--
--

Colin Bignell
Handsome Jack
2018-04-05 11:38:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Nightjar
Post by Vidcapper
Post by Nightjar
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to defend
ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested
-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
We all have a right to defend ourselves, using reasonable force, which
may include lethal force. The fact that he has been arrested suggests
that the police think that he went well beyond what was reasonable.
I don't think that can be inferred at all - it is standard procedure
to arrest someone in these circumstances.
Even though it starts the clock ticking as to when they have to be
released or charged?
Since the alternative to arrest is to release them immediately, I doubt
the police take that into consideration.

It is of course possible to question them without arrest; indeed, in
law, this is what the police are supposed to do. However what the
police are supposed to do, and what they do in practice, are two
different things.
--
Jack
JNugent
2018-04-05 12:02:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Nightjar
Post by Nightjar
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to defend
ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested
-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
We all have a right to defend ourselves, using reasonable force, which
may include lethal force. The fact that he has been arrested suggests
that the police think that he went well beyond what was reasonable.
 I don't think that can be inferred at all - it is standard procedure
to arrest someone in these circumstances.
Even though it starts the clock ticking as to when they have to be
released or charged?
Since the alternative to arrest is to release them immediately, I doubt
the police take that into consideration.
It is of course possible to question them without arrest; indeed, in
law, this is what the police are supposed to do.  However what the
police are supposed to do, and what they do in practice, are two
different things.
At 78 yrs old, he should have been escorted to the nerest emergency
hospital for a check-up.
Nightjar
2018-04-05 15:47:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by JNugent
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Nightjar
Post by Nightjar
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to defend
ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested
-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
We all have a right to defend ourselves, using reasonable force, which
may include lethal force. The fact that he has been arrested suggests
that the police think that he went well beyond what was reasonable.
 I don't think that can be inferred at all - it is standard
procedure to arrest someone in these circumstances.
Even though it starts the clock ticking as to when they have to be
released or charged?
Since the alternative to arrest is to release them immediately, I
doubt the police take that into consideration.
It is of course possible to question them without arrest; indeed, in
law, this is what the police are supposed to do.  However what the
police are supposed to do, and what they do in practice, are two
different things.
At 78 yrs old, he should have been escorted to the nerest emergency
hospital for a check-up.
Arresting him and keeping him in custody does seem to fall short of the
guidance to treat all such cases sympathetically, which is what leads me
to think that there are aspects of the case that have not been made public.
--
--

Colin Bignell
johnny-knowall
2018-04-05 17:43:30 UTC
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Post by Nightjar
Post by JNugent
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Nightjar
Post by Vidcapper
Post by Nightjar
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to
defend
ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested
-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
We all have a right to defend ourselves, using reasonable force, which
may include lethal force. The fact that he has been arrested suggests
that the police think that he went well beyond what was reasonable.
I don't think that can be inferred at all - it is standard
procedure to arrest someone in these circumstances.
Even though it starts the clock ticking as to when they have to be
released or charged?
Since the alternative to arrest is to release them immediately, I
doubt the police take that into consideration.
It is of course possible to question them without arrest; indeed, in
law, this is what the police are supposed to do. However what the
police are supposed to do, and what they do in practice, are two
different things.
At 78 yrs old, he should have been escorted to the nerest emergency
hospital for a check-up.
Arresting him and keeping him in custody does seem to fall short of the
guidance to treat all such cases sympathetically, which is what leads me
to think that there are aspects of the case that have not been made public.
He has been released on bail, and will not have to return until May; when he
may or may not be charged.
R. Mark Clayton
2018-04-05 15:50:25 UTC
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Post by Nightjar
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to defend
ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
We all have a right to defend ourselves, using reasonable force, which
may include lethal force. The fact that he has been arrested suggests
that the police think that he went well beyond what was reasonable.
--
--
Colin Bignell
Probably rather more to do with the deceased being found well outside the house and no sign of the other alleged offender.
The Todal
2018-04-06 12:01:00 UTC
Reply
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Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Nightjar
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to defend
ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
We all have a right to defend ourselves, using reasonable force, which
may include lethal force. The fact that he has been arrested suggests
that the police think that he went well beyond what was reasonable.
--
--
Colin Bignell
Probably rather more to do with the deceased being found well outside the house and no sign of the other alleged offender.
Our hearts should bleed (maybe literally) for the poor burglar.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/henry-vincent-stabbed-intruder-in-alleged-hither-green-burglary-was-a-wanted-man-rlft2bpvm

The family of a career criminal killed as he burgled a 78-year-old
pensioner’s home today said he did not deserve to die.

Henry Vincent, 37, was carrying a screwdriver when he forced Richard
Osborn-Brooks into his kitchen while his alleged burglary accomplice
went upstairs. Vincent died of a chest wound after the incident in
Hither Green, southeast London, in the early hours of Tuesday. Police
appealed for information on the second man, who is still at large,
having driven away in a white van.

Mr Osborn-Brooks was arrested on suspicion of murder after officers were
called to the home he shares with his wife, Maureen, 76. He has been
released on bail.

The family of Vincent, who was on a police most wanted list when he
died, have complained about the release. His cousin, who spoke
anonymously, told the BBC she was angry that the pensioner had been bailed.

She said: “I don’t know what happened in that home. But all I do know is
that my cousin is dead today. The Henry I know, he was such a loving
person, and it’s probably something which just went wrong but he
shouldn’t have died out of it.”

Mr Osborn-Brooks, a retired RAC worker, cares for his wife who,
according to neighbours, suffers from dementia.

One neighbour, Val Barclay, 63, said: “You can’t break into people’s
houses, especially when he’s a carer for his wife and they were in bed.”
Jethro_uk
2018-04-06 12:09:21 UTC
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Post by The Todal
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Nightjar
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to
defend ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-
arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
Post by The Todal
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Nightjar
We all have a right to defend ourselves, using reasonable force, which
may include lethal force. The fact that he has been arrested suggests
that the police think that he went well beyond what was reasonable.
--
--
Colin Bignell
Probably rather more to do with the deceased being found well outside
the house and no sign of the other alleged offender.
Our hearts should bleed (maybe literally) for the poor burglar.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/henry-vincent-stabbed-intruder-
in-alleged-hither-green-burglary-was-a-wanted-man-rlft2bpvm


That's a tad too far. Someone should have advised the scumbags family to
keep well out of it.

Desire for a full investigation does not equate to any sympathy for
thieving weapon wielding scumbags - or their now apparent enabling
families.

There have been a few cases where morons who chose to wave weapons around
in public come to a deserved full stop by police bullet, and it turns out
they were allegedly disguised angels.
tim...
2018-04-06 17:45:16 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Incubus
Post by The Todal
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Nightjar
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to
defend ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-
arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
Post by The Todal
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Nightjar
We all have a right to defend ourselves, using reasonable force, which
may include lethal force. The fact that he has been arrested suggests
that the police think that he went well beyond what was reasonable.
--
--
Colin Bignell
Probably rather more to do with the deceased being found well outside
the house and no sign of the other alleged offender.
Our hearts should bleed (maybe literally) for the poor burglar.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/henry-vincent-stabbed-intruder-
in-alleged-hither-green-burglary-was-a-wanted-man-rlft2bpvm
That's a tad too far. Someone should have advised the scumbags family to
keep well out of it.
Desire for a full investigation does not equate to any sympathy for
thieving weapon wielding scumbags - or their now apparent enabling
families.
There have been a few cases where morons who chose to wave weapons around
in public come to a deserved full stop by police bullet, and it turns out
they were allegedly disguised angels.
or in some cases simply falling off their bike whilst they were chased
during an escape.

Whilst I can see merit in police not chasing an escaping vehicle where there
is risk that they might harm a third party. I can see no justifiable reason
for them not doing it because the escapee might harm themselves.

tim
Ophelia
2018-04-06 17:55:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Incubus
Post by The Todal
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Nightjar
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to
defend ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-
arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
Post by The Todal
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Nightjar
We all have a right to defend ourselves, using reasonable force, which
may include lethal force. The fact that he has been arrested suggests
that the police think that he went well beyond what was reasonable.
--
--
Colin Bignell
Probably rather more to do with the deceased being found well outside
the house and no sign of the other alleged offender.
Our hearts should bleed (maybe literally) for the poor burglar.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/henry-vincent-stabbed-intruder-
in-alleged-hither-green-burglary-was-a-wanted-man-rlft2bpvm
That's a tad too far. Someone should have advised the scumbags family to
keep well out of it.
Desire for a full investigation does not equate to any sympathy for
thieving weapon wielding scumbags - or their now apparent enabling
families.
There have been a few cases where morons who chose to wave weapons around
in public come to a deserved full stop by police bullet, and it turns out
they were allegedly disguised angels.
or in some cases simply falling off their bike whilst they were chased
during an escape.

Whilst I can see merit in police not chasing an escaping vehicle where there
is risk that they might harm a third party. I can see no justifiable reason
for them not doing it because the escapee might harm themselves.

tim

==

Just heard. He has been released with no charge:))
Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy:))))
Bod
2018-04-06 17:55:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by Incubus
Post by The Todal
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Nightjar
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to
defend ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-
arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
Post by The Todal
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Nightjar
We all have a right to defend ourselves, using reasonable force, which
may include lethal force. The fact that he has been arrested suggests
that the police think that he went well beyond what was reasonable.
--
   --
Colin Bignell
Probably rather more to do with the deceased being found well outside
the house and no sign of the other alleged offender.
Our hearts should bleed (maybe literally) for the poor burglar.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/henry-vincent-stabbed-intruder-
in-alleged-hither-green-burglary-was-a-wanted-man-rlft2bpvm
That's a tad too far. Someone should have advised the scumbags family to
keep well out of it.
Desire for a full investigation does not equate to any sympathy for
thieving weapon wielding scumbags - or their now apparent enabling
families.
There have been a few cases where morons who chose to wave weapons around
in public come to a deserved full stop by police bullet, and it turns out
they were allegedly disguised angels.
or in some cases simply falling off their bike whilst they were chased
during an escape.
Whilst I can see merit in police not chasing an escaping vehicle where there
is risk that they might harm a third party.  I can see no justifiable
reason
for them not doing it because the escapee might harm themselves.
tim
==
Just heard.  He has been released with no charge:))
Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy:))))
+1
--
Bod
Vidcapper
2018-04-07 06:22:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by Incubus
Post by The Todal
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Nightjar
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to
defend ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-
arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
Post by The Todal
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Nightjar
We all have a right to defend ourselves, using reasonable force, which
may include lethal force. The fact that he has been arrested suggests
that the police think that he went well beyond what was reasonable.
--
--
Colin Bignell
Probably rather more to do with the deceased being found well outside
the house and no sign of the other alleged offender.
Our hearts should bleed (maybe literally) for the poor burglar.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/henry-vincent-stabbed-intruder-
in-alleged-hither-green-burglary-was-a-wanted-man-rlft2bpvm
That's a tad too far. Someone should have advised the scumbags family to
keep well out of it.
Desire for a full investigation does not equate to any sympathy for
thieving weapon wielding scumbags - or their now apparent enabling
families.
There have been a few cases where morons who chose to wave weapons around
in public come to a deserved full stop by police bullet, and it turns out
they were allegedly disguised angels.
or in some cases simply falling off their bike whilst they were chased
during an escape.
Whilst I can see merit in police not chasing an escaping vehicle where there
is risk that they might harm a third party. I can see no justifiable reason
for them not doing it because the escapee might harm themselves.
tim
==
Just heard. He has been released with no charge:))
Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy:))))
+1
+2

It makes me want to puke though, when the burglar's family line up to
claim he wasn't a bad lad really... :(
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
Mike Swift
2018-04-07 10:41:11 UTC
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It makes me want to puke though, when the burglar's family line up to claim
he wasn't a bad lad really... :(
It does make you sick doesn't it.

A known drug dealer was shot near an M62 exit and a gun was found in the
foot well, his dad has been whinging in the local paper what a nice law
abiding son he was despite his house being like a fortress totally
covered by CCTV, no job and running a large expensive car.

What make it much worse is the local rag, The Huddersfield Examiner, has
given him a soapbox for his ranting.

Mike
--
Michael Swift We do not regard Englishmen as foreigners.
Kirkheaton We look on them only as rather mad Norwegians.
Yorkshire Halvard Lange
pamela
2018-04-08 21:04:37 UTC
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Post by Mike Swift
Post by Vidcapper
It makes me want to puke though, when the burglar's family line up
to claim he wasn't a bad lad really... :(
It does make you sick doesn't it.
A known drug dealer was shot near an M62 exit and a gun was found
in the foot well, his dad has been whinging in the local paper
what a nice law abiding son he was despite his house being like a
fortress totally covered by CCTV, no job and running a large
expensive car.
What make it much worse is the local rag, The Huddersfield
Examiner, has given him a soapbox for his ranting.
Mike
No doubt the parents of Venables and Thompson also thought they were
likable scamps who wouldn't hurt a fly.
Fredxx
2018-04-08 21:39:54 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by pamela
Post by Mike Swift
Post by Vidcapper
It makes me want to puke though, when the burglar's family line up
to claim he wasn't a bad lad really... :(
It does make you sick doesn't it.
A known drug dealer was shot near an M62 exit and a gun was found
in the foot well, his dad has been whinging in the local paper
what a nice law abiding son he was despite his house being like a
fortress totally covered by CCTV, no job and running a large
expensive car.
What make it much worse is the local rag, The Huddersfield
Examiner, has given him a soapbox for his ranting.
Mike
No doubt the parents of Venables and Thompson also thought they were
likable scamps who wouldn't hurt a fly.
I thought one of them has since kept out of any more trouble?
pamela
2018-04-09 10:23:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fredxx
Post by pamela
Post by Mike Swift
Post by Vidcapper
It makes me want to puke though, when the burglar's family line up
to claim he wasn't a bad lad really... :(
It does make you sick doesn't it.
A known drug dealer was shot near an M62 exit and a gun was found
in the foot well, his dad has been whinging in the local paper
what a nice law abiding son he was despite his house being like a
fortress totally covered by CCTV, no job and running a large
expensive car.
What make it much worse is the local rag, The Huddersfield
Examiner, has given him a soapbox for his ranting.
Mike
No doubt the parents of Venables and Thompson also thought they were
likable scamps who wouldn't hurt a fly.
I thought one of them has since kept out of any more trouble?
One seems less bad than the other. Neither is an angel.

Press reports at the time interviewed the parents saying it was
impossible those two could have done anything wrong. The mass of
accumulating evidence said otherwise but those parents were in such
complete denial they seemed to think their son was probably innocent.
This happens quite a lot.

Fredxx
2018-04-07 10:58:29 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Vidcapper
Post by tim...
Post by Incubus
Post by The Todal
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Nightjar
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to
defend ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-
arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
Post by The Todal
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Nightjar
We all have a right to defend ourselves, using reasonable force, which
may include lethal force. The fact that he has been arrested suggests
that the police think that he went well beyond what was reasonable.
--
   --
Colin Bignell
Probably rather more to do with the deceased being found well outside
the house and no sign of the other alleged offender.
Our hearts should bleed (maybe literally) for the poor burglar.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/henry-vincent-stabbed-intruder-
in-alleged-hither-green-burglary-was-a-wanted-man-rlft2bpvm
That's a tad too far. Someone should have advised the scumbags family to
keep well out of it.
Desire for a full investigation does not equate to any sympathy for
thieving weapon wielding scumbags - or their now apparent enabling
families.
There have been a few cases where morons who chose to wave weapons around
in public come to a deserved full stop by police bullet, and it turns out
they were allegedly disguised angels.
or in some cases simply falling off their bike whilst they were chased
during an escape.
Whilst I can see merit in police not chasing an escaping vehicle where there
is risk that they might harm a third party.  I can see no justifiable
reason
for them not doing it because the escapee might harm themselves.
tim
==
Just heard.  He has been released with no charge:))
Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy:))))
+1
+2
It makes me want to puke though, when the burglar's family line up to
claim he wasn't a bad lad really... :(
Many 'bad lads' grow up to become law abiding people. They also have
families. There is a human family cost to this.

Nevertheless, I feel due process has been carried out and pleased the
homeowner has been released. He now has to wait for the inquest and hope
the coroner sings from the same hymn sheet as the police and CPS.
Norman Wells
2018-04-07 12:08:17 UTC
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Post by Fredxx
Many 'bad lads' grow up to become law abiding people. They also have
families. There is a human family cost to this.
He was 37, and rather unlikely to change.

"The career criminal hails from a family of cowboy builders who were
jailed for a total of 30 years for fleecing elderly householders out of
more than a million pounds in 2003.

Together with his father, Henry Charles Vincent (the dead man) and five
other brothers, Vincent tricked pensioners into handing over cash for
fake building works after telling them their houses were about to fall
down.

After Vincent was released from a four year jail term for that scam, he
and his father conned an 81-year-old pensioner out of £72,000 to repair
a single tile on his roof in 2009 Vincent was jailed for six years in
2009, but was let out of prison early to commit two burglaries in 2008.

In 2013, Vincent was put on Kent Police's 'most wanted' list following
another raid in Gravesend and most recently police appealed to trace him
in January this year."

A 'lovely person' indeed, as his family described him.
Ophelia
2018-04-07 12:43:23 UTC
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Post by Fredxx
Many 'bad lads' grow up to become law abiding people. They also have
families. There is a human family cost to this.
He was 37, and rather unlikely to change.

"The career criminal hails from a family of cowboy builders who were
jailed for a total of 30 years for fleecing elderly householders out of
more than a million pounds in 2003.

Together with his father, Henry Charles Vincent (the dead man) and five
other brothers, Vincent tricked pensioners into handing over cash for
fake building works after telling them their houses were about to fall
down.

After Vincent was released from a four year jail term for that scam, he
and his father conned an 81-year-old pensioner out of £72,000 to repair
a single tile on his roof in 2009 Vincent was jailed for six years in
2009, but was let out of prison early to commit two burglaries in 2008.

In 2013, Vincent was put on Kent Police's 'most wanted' list following
another raid in Gravesend and most recently police appealed to trace him
in January this year."

A 'lovely person' indeed, as his family described him.

==

I just read that the family are out to get the 'pensioner' and his house is
boarded up:((
Norman Wells
2018-04-07 14:43:44 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Fredxx
Many 'bad lads' grow up to become law abiding people. They also have
families. There is a human family cost to this.
He was 37, and rather unlikely to change.
"The career criminal hails from a family of cowboy builders who were
jailed for a total of 30 years for fleecing elderly householders out of
more than a million pounds in 2003.
Together with his father, Henry Charles Vincent (the dead man) and five
other brothers, Vincent tricked pensioners into handing over cash for
fake building works after telling them their houses were about to fall
down.
After Vincent was released from a four year jail term for that scam, he
and his father conned an 81-year-old pensioner out of £72,000 to repair
a single tile on his roof in 2009 Vincent was jailed for six years in
2009, but was let out of prison early to commit two burglaries in 2008.
In 2013, Vincent was put on Kent Police's 'most wanted' list following
another raid in Gravesend and most recently police appealed to trace him
in January this year."
A 'lovely person' indeed, as his family described him.
==
I just read that the family are out to get the 'pensioner' and his house is
boarded up:((
Yes, lovely family they are and no mistake.
Vidcapper
2018-04-07 14:12:34 UTC
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On 07/04/2018 13:08, Norman Wells wrote:

Vincent was jailed for six years in
Post by Norman Wells
2009, but was let out of prison early to commit two burglaries in 2008.
Did he also nick the BTTF DeLorean then? :p
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
Fredxx
2018-04-07 19:09:45 UTC
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Post by Norman Wells
Post by Fredxx
Many 'bad lads' grow up to become law abiding people. They also have
families. There is a human family cost to this.
He was 37,
So a bit older than a 'lad'.
Post by Norman Wells
and rather unlikely to change.
Agreed. From the rest you wrote, it seems the pensioner did us quite a
service.
Norman Wells
2018-04-07 19:32:20 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Fredxx
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Fredxx
Many 'bad lads' grow up to become law abiding people. They also have
families. There is a human family cost to this.
He was 37,
So a bit older than a 'lad'.
Post by Norman Wells
and rather unlikely to change.
Agreed. From the rest you wrote, it seems the pensioner did us quite a
service.
Indeed. I doubt if many are losing much sleep over it.

Hopefully, there's a message that other crooks might heed. If you bet
your life on a dead cert, you might lose.
Ophelia
2018-04-07 07:46:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by Incubus
Post by The Todal
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Nightjar
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to
defend ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-
arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
Post by The Todal
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Nightjar
We all have a right to defend ourselves, using reasonable force, which
may include lethal force. The fact that he has been arrested suggests
that the police think that he went well beyond what was reasonable.
--
--
Colin Bignell
Probably rather more to do with the deceased being found well outside
the house and no sign of the other alleged offender.
Our hearts should bleed (maybe literally) for the poor burglar.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/henry-vincent-stabbed-intruder-
in-alleged-hither-green-burglary-was-a-wanted-man-rlft2bpvm
That's a tad too far. Someone should have advised the scumbags family to
keep well out of it.
Desire for a full investigation does not equate to any sympathy for
thieving weapon wielding scumbags - or their now apparent enabling
families.
There have been a few cases where morons who chose to wave weapons around
in public come to a deserved full stop by police bullet, and it turns out
they were allegedly disguised angels.
or in some cases simply falling off their bike whilst they were chased
during an escape.
Whilst I can see merit in police not chasing an escaping vehicle where there
is risk that they might harm a third party. I can see no justifiable reason
for them not doing it because the escapee might harm themselves.
tim
==
Just heard. He has been released with no charge:))
Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy:))))
+1
+2

It makes me want to puke though, when the burglar's family line up to
claim he wasn't a bad lad really... :(
==

Ugh!
BurfordTJustice
2018-04-04 20:34:38 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Incubus
Just in case anyone wasn't already aware, we don't have the right to defend
ourselves or our property.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5576905/Homeowner-78-arrested-burglar-stabbed-death-break-in.html
Yes you do but your defence should be reasonable and proportionate. For
instance, you would be prosecuted and probably convicted if you chased and
caught a burglar before inflicting upon him a serious or fatal injury. It
is permissible to detain him, but he must be turned over to the police at
the earliest reasonable opportunity.
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