Discussion:
The concept of Brexit was misconceived
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MM
2018-07-26 14:51:49 UTC
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Not enough has been made of the reason why Cameron called the
referendum. We know why he did. It was to keep Tory backbenchers on
side and to stop voters deserting to Ukip. So it was NOT about
offering the people of this country a choice at all, but about Cameron
and the Tories retaining power. While certain people and newspapers
have been complaining about the EU for years, there was no real
movement in the country, apart from among Ukip supporters, to demand a
referendum. It was Cameron in 2013 who suggested the idea, then
finally ran with it in the 2015 manifesto.

One can see it was a political ploy from the outset. Little, if any,
research was done prior to calling the referendum as to what would
happen post-referendum, because, as we now know, precious little was
done to plan for the eventuality of a Leave vote. Cameron was all too
sure that the result would be a vote to remain, i.e. for the status
quo. This Remain result, thought Cameron, would finally silence all
his Tory backbench bastards, who would reluctantly shove their shivs
back in the scabbard.

But then Leave won and Cameron scarpered PDQ. Not only had he done no
preparation for Leave, he hadn't envisaged losing and what would then
happen to him personally. As the night of the 23/24 June progressed
and Cameron saw what was happening, he must already have been making
plans to make a dash for it, at the earliest opportunity. This
presented itself at around 8:30 a.m. just a few hours after David
Dimbleby had announced to the nation "We're out."

But when and where since then has David Cameron been taken to task
over his humongous error of judgement? I don't recall seeing a single
interview post-referendum with him! He disappeared as if in a witness
protection programme. Did no one think to ask later what possessed him
to divide the country from top to bottom? To make his Tory
backstabbers even stronger? The backstabbers who Theresa May now has
to contend with.

I believe !6 million remainers deserve to hear it from the former
Prime Minister, to hear him admit that he got the whole thing wrong
and for the divisions in the country he caused he is heartily sorry.

But is he? Perhaps he couldn't care less about the people, as it
certainly wasn't the people whom he called the referendum for.

Cameron now speaks for loadsamunney aross the world, so if he can do
that all right, why not spend half an hour with Andrew Neil or James
O'Brien? Or is he too afraid of being made to look a fool?
http://www.theweek.co.uk/brexit/72848/what-is-david-cameron-doing-now

MM
R. Mark Clayton
2018-07-26 15:36:21 UTC
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Post by MM
Not enough has been made of the reason why Cameron called the
referendum. We know why he did. It was to keep Tory backbenchers on
side and to stop voters deserting to Ukip. So it was NOT about
offering the people of this country a choice at all, but about Cameron
and the Tories retaining power. While certain people and newspapers
have been complaining about the EU for years, there was no real
movement in the country, apart from among Ukip supporters, to demand a
referendum. It was Cameron in 2013 who suggested the idea, then
finally ran with it in the 2015 manifesto.
One can see it was a political ploy from the outset. Little, if any,
research was done prior to calling the referendum as to what would
happen post-referendum, because, as we now know, precious little was
done to plan for the eventuality of a Leave vote. Cameron was all too
sure that the result would be a vote to remain, i.e. for the status
quo. This Remain result, thought Cameron, would finally silence all
his Tory backbench bastards, who would reluctantly shove their shivs
back in the scabbard.
But then Leave won and Cameron scarpered PDQ. Not only had he done no
preparation for Leave, he hadn't envisaged losing and what would then
happen to him personally. As the night of the 23/24 June progressed
and Cameron saw what was happening, he must already have been making
plans to make a dash for it, at the earliest opportunity. This
presented itself at around 8:30 a.m. just a few hours after David
Dimbleby had announced to the nation "We're out."
But when and where since then has David Cameron been taken to task
over his humongous error of judgement? I don't recall seeing a single
interview post-referendum with him! He disappeared as if in a witness
protection programme. Did no one think to ask later what possessed him
to divide the country from top to bottom? To make his Tory
backstabbers even stronger? The backstabbers who Theresa May now has
to contend with.
I believe !6 million remainers deserve to hear it from the former
Prime Minister, to hear him admit that he got the whole thing wrong
and for the divisions in the country he caused he is heartily sorry.
But is he? Perhaps he couldn't care less about the people, as it
certainly wasn't the people whom he called the referendum for.
Cameron now speaks for loadsamunney aross the world, so if he can do
that all right, why not spend half an hour with Andrew Neil or James
O'Brien? Or is he too afraid of being made to look a fool?
http://www.theweek.co.uk/brexit/72848/what-is-david-cameron-doing-now
MM
Cameron did misjudge both calling the referendum and that the lies of the Leavers would be believed by the less educated. He paid by losing all power, and his job. We will all pay with our prosperity and for the young lost opportunities etc.

At least he did the honourable thing and quit quietly.
MM
2018-07-26 16:03:56 UTC
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On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 08:36:21 -0700 (PDT), "R. Mark Clayton"
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Cameron did misjudge both calling the referendum and that the lies of the Leavers would be believed by the less educated. He paid by losing all power, and his job. We will all pay with our prosperity and for the young lost opportunities etc.
At least he did the honourable thing and quit quietly.
I didn't view it as honourable at all. It was cowardly.

MM
Norman Wells
2018-07-26 19:20:33 UTC
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Post by MM
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 08:36:21 -0700 (PDT), "R. Mark Clayton"
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Cameron did misjudge both calling the referendum and that the lies of the Leavers would be believed by the less educated. He paid by losing all power, and his job. We will all pay with our prosperity and for the young lost opportunities etc.
At least he did the honourable thing and quit quietly.
I didn't view it as honourable at all. It was cowardly.
That's because you have no idea.

He had to go because, having backed Remain, he would have had to become
a cheerleader for Leave if he stayed. He would have been in charge of
Brexit.
The Todal
2018-07-27 08:37:23 UTC
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Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 08:36:21 -0700 (PDT), "R. Mark Clayton"
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Cameron did misjudge both calling the referendum and that the lies of
the Leavers would be believed by the less educated.  He paid by
losing all power, and his job.  We will all pay with our prosperity
and for the young lost opportunities etc.
At least he did the honourable thing and quit quietly.
I didn't view it as honourable at all. It was cowardly.
That's because you have no idea.
He had to go because, having backed Remain, he would have had to become
a cheerleader for Leave if he stayed.  He would have been in charge of
Brexit.
So now Theresa May, who backed Remain, is in charge of Brexit.

I think you have to recognise that Cameron resigned because he believed
Brexit would be a disaster and would damage his image as a successful
Prime Minister.

It would have been more honest of him, and more helpful, if he had made
it clear throughout the referendum campaign that it was his intention to
resign if Leave won. Instead he gave the clear impression that he would
remain in post. As if to say, it's no big deal, I can implement a major
change in British policy if required to do so.
Norman Wells
2018-07-27 09:56:56 UTC
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Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 08:36:21 -0700 (PDT), "R. Mark Clayton"
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Cameron did misjudge both calling the referendum and that the lies
of the Leavers would be believed by the less educated.  He paid by
losing all power, and his job.  We will all pay with our prosperity
and for the young lost opportunities etc.
At least he did the honourable thing and quit quietly.
I didn't view it as honourable at all. It was cowardly.
That's because you have no idea.
He had to go because, having backed Remain, he would have had to
become a cheerleader for Leave if he stayed.  He would have been in
charge of Brexit.
So now Theresa May, who backed Remain, is in charge of Brexit.
Someone has to be Prime Minister, and she was elected leader of the
party in government. It's how it works.
Post by The Todal
I think you have to recognise that Cameron resigned because he believed
Brexit would be a disaster
In that case, it was totally honourable of him to resign. he could not,
with a clear conscience or any credibility, put into effect what he had
been told to do by the electorate.
Post by The Todal
and would damage his image as a successful Prime Minister.
Did he have one?
Post by The Todal
It would have been more honest of him, and more helpful, if he had made
it clear throughout the referendum campaign that it was his intention to
resign if Leave won.  Instead he gave the clear impression that he would
remain in post. As if to say, it's no big deal, I can implement a major
change in British policy if required to do so.
But it was a big deal, he couldn't, so he went.
The Todal
2018-07-27 10:25:45 UTC
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Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 08:36:21 -0700 (PDT), "R. Mark Clayton"
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Cameron did misjudge both calling the referendum and that the lies
of the Leavers would be believed by the less educated.  He paid by
losing all power, and his job.  We will all pay with our prosperity
and for the young lost opportunities etc.
At least he did the honourable thing and quit quietly.
I didn't view it as honourable at all. It was cowardly.
That's because you have no idea.
He had to go because, having backed Remain, he would have had to
become a cheerleader for Leave if he stayed.  He would have been in
charge of Brexit.
So now Theresa May, who backed Remain, is in charge of Brexit.
Someone has to be Prime Minister, and she was elected leader of the
party in government.  It's how it works.
Post by The Todal
I think you have to recognise that Cameron resigned because he
believed Brexit would be a disaster
In that case, it was totally honourable of him to resign.  he could not,
with a clear conscience or any credibility, put into effect what he had
been told to do by the electorate.
No, he could have done if he'd wanted to. In his referendum campaigning
he didn't portray it as a vote of confidence in him as a leader, or in
the Tory party (thus, he didn't call a general election after the
referendum).

He said to the electorate, tell us what you want us to do and we'll do
it. To resign was dishonourable. It means "you've told me what to do, so
I'm leaving".
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
and would damage his image as a successful Prime Minister.
Did he have one?
Post by The Todal
It would have been more honest of him, and more helpful, if he had
made it clear throughout the referendum campaign that it was his
intention to resign if Leave won.  Instead he gave the clear
impression that he would remain in post. As if to say, it's no big
deal, I can implement a major change in British policy if required to
do so.
But it was a big deal, he couldn't, so he went.
Obviously he could have stayed and masterminded Brexit. He is
politically far more skilled than Theresa May. But he didn't want to be
the Prime Minister who led the nation into its worst economic crisis
since the second world war. He wanted someone else to have that poisoned
chalice.
Norman Wells
2018-07-27 11:13:30 UTC
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Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 08:36:21 -0700 (PDT), "R. Mark Clayton"
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Cameron did misjudge both calling the referendum and that the lies
of the Leavers would be believed by the less educated.  He paid by
losing all power, and his job.  We will all pay with our
prosperity and for the young lost opportunities etc.
At least he did the honourable thing and quit quietly.
I didn't view it as honourable at all. It was cowardly.
That's because you have no idea.
He had to go because, having backed Remain, he would have had to
become a cheerleader for Leave if he stayed.  He would have been in
charge of Brexit.
So now Theresa May, who backed Remain, is in charge of Brexit.
Someone has to be Prime Minister, and she was elected leader of the
party in government.  It's how it works.
Post by The Todal
I think you have to recognise that Cameron resigned because he
believed Brexit would be a disaster
In that case, it was totally honourable of him to resign.  he could
not, with a clear conscience or any credibility, put into effect what
he had been told to do by the electorate.
No, he could have done if he'd wanted to. In his referendum campaigning
he didn't portray it as a vote of confidence in him as a leader, or in
the Tory party (thus, he didn't call a general election after the
referendum).
He said to the electorate, tell us what you want us to do and we'll do
it. To resign was dishonourable. It means "you've told me what to do, so
I'm leaving".
But that's because he nailed his colours to the Remain mast. Had he
stood aside and taken no partisan position, he could have carried on.
But he didn't. Maybe he couldn't.
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
and would damage his image as a successful Prime Minister.
Did he have one?
Post by The Todal
It would have been more honest of him, and more helpful, if he had
made it clear throughout the referendum campaign that it was his
intention to resign if Leave won.  Instead he gave the clear
impression that he would remain in post. As if to say, it's no big
deal, I can implement a major change in British policy if required to
do so.
But it was a big deal, he couldn't, so he went.
Obviously he could have stayed and masterminded Brexit. He is
politically far more skilled than Theresa May. But he didn't want to be
the Prime Minister who led the nation into its worst economic crisis
since the second world war. He wanted someone else to have that poisoned
chalice.
Makes it even more honourable that he stood down then, which was the
point at issue.
R. Mark Clayton
2018-07-27 11:28:16 UTC
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Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 08:36:21 -0700 (PDT), "R. Mark Clayton"
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Cameron did misjudge both calling the referendum and that the lies
of the Leavers would be believed by the less educated.  He paid by
losing all power, and his job.  We will all pay with our
prosperity and for the young lost opportunities etc.
At least he did the honourable thing and quit quietly.
I didn't view it as honourable at all. It was cowardly.
That's because you have no idea.
He had to go because, having backed Remain, he would have had to
become a cheerleader for Leave if he stayed.  He would have been in
charge of Brexit.
So now Theresa May, who backed Remain, is in charge of Brexit.
Someone has to be Prime Minister, and she was elected leader of the
party in government.  It's how it works.
Post by The Todal
I think you have to recognise that Cameron resigned because he
believed Brexit would be a disaster
In that case, it was totally honourable of him to resign.  he could
not, with a clear conscience or any credibility, put into effect what
he had been told to do by the electorate.
No, he could have done if he'd wanted to. In his referendum campaigning
he didn't portray it as a vote of confidence in him as a leader, or in
the Tory party (thus, he didn't call a general election after the
referendum).
He said to the electorate, tell us what you want us to do and we'll do
it. To resign was dishonourable. It means "you've told me what to do, so
I'm leaving".
But that's because he nailed his colours to the Remain mast. Had he
stood aside and taken no partisan position, he could have carried on.
But he didn't. Maybe he couldn't.
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
and would damage his image as a successful Prime Minister.
Did he have one?
Post by The Todal
It would have been more honest of him, and more helpful, if he had
made it clear throughout the referendum campaign that it was his
intention to resign if Leave won.  Instead he gave the clear
impression that he would remain in post. As if to say, it's no big
deal, I can implement a major change in British policy if required to
do so.
But it was a big deal, he couldn't, so he went.
Obviously he could have stayed and masterminded Brexit. He is
politically far more skilled than Theresa May. But he didn't want to be
the Prime Minister who led the nation into its worst economic crisis
since the second world war. He wanted someone else to have that poisoned
chalice.
It is only projected to be the second worst economic crisis at about 6-9% off (partly 'achieved' already). Gordon Brown managed to make the 2008 crash much worse in the UK than other countries at ~12%.

This is what Corbyn is manoeuvring for and then "socialism" to the rescue. In particular he want the freedom movement of capital removed so that when he gets in all the wealth in the UK can't run away from punitive taxation or even outright expropriation...

When it all goes wrong he will blame it on the EU, US, bankers etc.

It is one of those possible alternative futures as in the Terminator series - it does not have to happen - we could still abandon the Brexit b***s up.
Post by Norman Wells
Makes it even more honourable that he stood down then, which was the
point at issue.
Norman Wells
2018-07-27 11:44:39 UTC
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Post by R. Mark Clayton
It is only projected to be the second worst economic crisis at about 6-9% off
'off' what?

You don't seem to understand that, unless you say, you're just throwing
around meaningless numbers.

(partly 'achieved' already). Gordon Brown managed to make the 2008
crash much worse in the UK than other countries at ~12%.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
This is what Corbyn is manoeuvring for and then "socialism" to the rescue. In particular he want the freedom movement of capital removed so that when he gets in all the wealth in the UK can't run away from punitive taxation or even outright expropriation...
You say it like it's a bad thing.
R. Mark Clayton
2018-07-28 11:09:31 UTC
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Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
It is only projected to be the second worst economic crisis at about 6-9% off
'off' what?
off the economy / off economic performance

is the context not entirely obvious?
Post by Norman Wells
You don't seem to understand that, unless you say, you're just throwing
around meaningless numbers.
(partly 'achieved' already). Gordon Brown managed to make the 2008
crash much worse in the UK than other countries at ~12%.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
This is what Corbyn is manoeuvring for and then "socialism" to the rescue. In particular he want the freedom movement of capital removed so that when he gets in all the wealth in the UK can't run away from punitive taxation or even outright expropriation...
You say it like it's a bad thing.
freedom of movement of capital is one of the four freedoms in the EU - Brexiteers want to keep goods, don't care about services and capital and lose movement of people.

One of the things that stopped Greece becoming another Venezuela was being in the EU.
Norman Wells
2018-07-28 12:01:25 UTC
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Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
It is only projected to be the second worst economic crisis at about 6-9% off
'off' what?
off the economy / off economic performance
is the context not entirely obvious?
It's utterly meaningless garbage. What does 6% off an economy mean?
Measured by what?

You have to have something quantifiable before 6% off means anything.
R. Mark Clayton
2018-07-28 12:22:03 UTC
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Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
It is only projected to be the second worst economic crisis at about 6-9% off
'off' what?
off the economy / off economic performance
is the context not entirely obvious?
It's utterly meaningless garbage. What does 6% off an economy mean?
Measured by what?
You have to have something quantifiable before 6% off means anything.
Geepers, and I thought you were an economic guru. An economy or economic performance is normally measured by its GPD and the mathematical first derivative of it aka growth.

You might have noticed that for a few years before the Leave vote the UK economy was outperforming most of the EU and now it is the other way around.
kat
2018-07-28 13:16:56 UTC
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Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
It is only projected to be the second worst economic crisis at about 6-9% off
'off' what?
off the economy / off economic performance
is the context not entirely obvious?
It's utterly meaningless garbage. What does 6% off an economy mean?
Measured by what?
You have to have something quantifiable before 6% off means anything.
Geepers, and I thought you were an economic guru. An economy or economic performance is normally measured by its GPD and the mathematical first derivative of it aka growth.
If you had a business, would you prefer increase profits, or to increase
turnover without any regard to the profits, which could reduce rather than also
increase?
Post by R. Mark Clayton
You might have noticed that for a few years before the Leave vote the UK economy was outperforming most of the EU and now it is the other way around.
Another question is - why? if being a member of the EU meant we were doing so
well, why wasn't the rest of the EU doing just as well? They were in the EU
too, with all the same advantages (if there are any).

Oh, maybe other factors affected the numbers? So maybe factors other than the
Brexit vote are affecting numbers now?
--
kat
Post by R. Mark Clayton
^..^<
Norman Wells
2018-07-28 14:43:49 UTC
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Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
It is only projected to be the second worst economic crisis at about 6-9% off
'off' what?
off the economy / off economic performance
is the context not entirely obvious?
It's utterly meaningless garbage. What does 6% off an economy mean?
Measured by what?
You have to have something quantifiable before 6% off means anything.
Geepers, and I thought you were an economic guru. An economy or economic performance is normally measured by its GPD and the mathematical first derivative of it aka growth.
No, that's your assumption, and it's moronically simplistic. It's like
saying a person is simply his height, and how well he's doing is how
much taller he is today than last year.

An economy is not simply measured by its size. That's just one component.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
You might have noticed that for a few years before the Leave vote the UK economy was outperforming most of the EU
That's because we were in the EU.
Post by R. Mark Clayton
and now it is the other way around.
That's because we're in the EU.

Actually it isn't. Neither has anything to do with our membership of
the EU or otherwise. The above proves it.
Pamela
2018-07-28 16:32:09 UTC
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Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
It is only projected to be the second worst economic crisis at about 6-9% off
'off' what?
off the economy / off economic performance
is the context not entirely obvious?
It's utterly meaningless garbage. What does 6% off an economy
mean? Measured by what?
You have to have something quantifiable before 6% off means
anything.
Geepers, and I thought you were an economic guru. An economy or
economic performance is normally measured by its GPD and the
mathematical first derivative of it aka growth.
A couple of months ago Norman said MM was an "ignoramus" because MM
didn't realise growth is a second derivative. Oops!

Now he's stuck on the meaning of 6% off trend.
Norman Wells
2018-07-28 17:12:11 UTC
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Post by Pamela
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
Post by Norman Wells
Post by R. Mark Clayton
It is only projected to be the second worst economic crisis at about 6-9% off
'off' what?
off the economy / off economic performance
is the context not entirely obvious?
It's utterly meaningless garbage. What does 6% off an economy
mean? Measured by what?
You have to have something quantifiable before 6% off means
anything.
Geepers, and I thought you were an economic guru. An economy or
economic performance is normally measured by its GPD and the
mathematical first derivative of it aka growth.
A couple of months ago Norman said MM was an "ignoramus" because MM
didn't realise growth is a second derivative. Oops!
Now he's stuck on the meaning of 6% off trend.
Oh, it's 'trend' now, is it? Where's that suddenly appeared from?

Trend of what?
The Todal
2018-07-28 10:39:03 UTC
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Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Obviously he could have stayed and masterminded Brexit. He is
politically far more skilled than Theresa May. But he didn't want to
be the Prime Minister who led the nation into its worst economic
crisis since the second world war. He wanted someone else to have that
poisoned chalice.
Makes it even more honourable that he stood down then, which was the
point at issue.
No, not honourable.

It's like a lawyer refusing to represent a longstanding client because
he doesn't want to blot his copybook by losing in court. It's like a
pilot leaving the cockpit because he's terrified of crashing the plane.
kat
2018-07-28 10:51:29 UTC
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Post by The Todal
Obviously he could have stayed and masterminded Brexit. He is politically far
more skilled than Theresa May. But he didn't want to be the Prime Minister
who led the nation into its worst economic crisis since the second world war.
He wanted someone else to have that poisoned chalice.
Makes it even more honourable that he stood down then, which was the point at
issue.
No, not honourable.
It's like a lawyer refusing to represent a longstanding client because he
doesn't want to blot his copybook by losing in court. It's like a pilot leaving
the cockpit because he's terrified of crashing the plane.
Personally I would prefer a terrified pilot to leave the cockpit as in that
state he probably would crash.
--
kat
Post by The Todal
^..^<
The Todal
2018-07-29 14:11:35 UTC
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Post by kat
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Obviously he could have stayed and masterminded Brexit. He is
politically far more skilled than Theresa May. But he didn't want to
be the Prime Minister who led the nation into its worst economic
crisis since the second world war. He wanted someone else to have
that poisoned chalice.
Makes it even more honourable that he stood down then, which was the
point at issue.
No, not honourable.
It's like a lawyer refusing to represent a longstanding client because
he doesn't want to blot his copybook by losing in court. It's like a
pilot leaving the cockpit because he's terrified of crashing the plane.
Personally I would prefer a terrified pilot to leave the cockpit as in
that state he probably would crash.
Thank heavens that the chief flight attendant is now flying the plane.
All will surely be well.
kat
2018-07-29 21:24:17 UTC
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Post by kat
Post by The Todal
Obviously he could have stayed and masterminded Brexit. He is politically
far more skilled than Theresa May. But he didn't want to be the Prime
Minister who led the nation into its worst economic crisis since the second
world war. He wanted someone else to have that poisoned chalice.
Makes it even more honourable that he stood down then, which was the point
at issue.
No, not honourable.
It's like a lawyer refusing to represent a longstanding client because he
doesn't want to blot his copybook by losing in court. It's like a pilot
leaving the cockpit because he's terrified of crashing the plane.
Personally I would prefer a terrified pilot to leave the cockpit as in that
state he probably would crash.
Thank heavens that the chief flight attendant is now flying the plane. All will
surely be well.
Actually all the passengers are taken back to the terminal and put up in a hotel
for the night. make of that what you will!
--
kat
^..^<
Norman Wells
2018-07-28 10:58:07 UTC
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Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Obviously he could have stayed and masterminded Brexit. He is
politically far more skilled than Theresa May. But he didn't want to
be the Prime Minister who led the nation into its worst economic
crisis since the second world war. He wanted someone else to have
that poisoned chalice.
Makes it even more honourable that he stood down then, which was the
point at issue.
No, not honourable.
It's like a lawyer refusing to represent a longstanding client because
he doesn't want to blot his copybook by losing in court. It's like a
pilot leaving the cockpit because he's terrified of crashing the plane.
Hardly.
Tim Woodall
2018-07-28 11:08:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Obviously he could have stayed and masterminded Brexit. He is
politically far more skilled than Theresa May. But he didn't want to
be the Prime Minister who led the nation into its worst economic
crisis since the second world war. He wanted someone else to have that
poisoned chalice.
Makes it even more honourable that he stood down then, which was the
point at issue.
No, not honourable.
It's like a lawyer refusing to represent a longstanding client because
he doesn't want to blot his copybook by losing in court. It's like a
pilot leaving the cockpit because he's terrified of crashing the plane.
More like a pilot saying, I cannot fly that mission, I lack the ability.

The pilot can either leave the cockpit, or ignore orders and fly
somewhere else. But to deliberately fly in a way you believe will crash
the plane is criminal, even if you get away with it.

My understanding is that it's common for lawyers to demand payment up
front for hopeless cases.

Did the leavers really want DC negotiating the divorce bill? I cannot
see him rushing into activating A50 either, something else the leavers
shot themselves in the foot with.
R. Mark Clayton
2018-07-28 11:11:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Obviously he could have stayed and masterminded Brexit. He is
politically far more skilled than Theresa May. But he didn't want to
be the Prime Minister who led the nation into its worst economic
crisis since the second world war. He wanted someone else to have that
poisoned chalice.
Makes it even more honourable that he stood down then, which was the
point at issue.
No, not honourable.
It's like a lawyer refusing to represent a longstanding client because
he doesn't want to blot his copybook by losing in court. It's like a
pilot leaving the cockpit because he's terrified of crashing the plane.
Or a taxi driver refusing to go "sarf' of the river at this time of night".

Still Cameron was not available for hire to the public, he made it plain that he wanted and when the public decided to go another way he could not lead them any more.
MM
2018-07-28 08:50:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Todal
since the second world war. He wanted someone else to have that poisoned
It's probably going to be worse than that. At least we prepared for
the war by giving the Home Guard broomsticks to practise with. The
government didn't plan~any~thing for a Leave result.

MM
Yellow
2018-07-26 15:45:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by MM
there was no real
movement in the country, apart from among Ukip supporters, to demand a
referendum. It was Cameron in 2013 who suggested the idea, then
finally ran with it in the 2015 manifesto.
1970s:
1 January 1973: The UK joins the European Economic Community (EEC).
Negotiations were conducted by Tory Prime Minister Edward Heath

1974: Labour, under leader Harold Wilson, promises a referendum on
whether to remain in the EEC in the party's election manifesto

6 June 1975: The public endorse the UK's continued membership of the
EEC, with 67% of people voting to stay in at a referendum

1980s:
1983: In their election manifesto, Labour, under leader Michael Foot,
pledge to begin negotiations to withdraw from the EU "within the
lifetime" of the following Parliament. Labour lose the election

1989: Margaret Thatcher signals the UK will join the European Exchange
Rate Mechanism. She resigns 18 months later amid internal divisions over
Europe and other issues

1990s:
1992: European leaders sign the Maastricht Treaty, creating the modern
day European Union. The UK exits the European Exchange Rate Mechanism

1993: Tory rebels fail in campaign for a referendum on the Maastricht
Treaty. Parliament approves the treaty but only after John Major is
forced to call a vote of confidence in his government. Denmark and
France are among countries to hold a referendum

1996: Businessman Sir James Goldsmith launches the Referendum Party to
campaign for a public vote on the UK's membership of the EU. It secures
3% of the vote at the 1997 general election

1997: In their election manifesto, Labour say a yes vote in a referendum
is a "pre-condition" for Britain for joining the single currency.

1999: The euro is launched. The UK opts out

2000s:
The UK ratified the Lisbon Treaty without a referendum
2004: Labour Prime Minister Tony Blair says a referendum will be held on
ratification of the European Constitution Treaty but does not name a
date for the poll

2005: Labour, the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats all promise a
referendum on whether to ratify the EU Constitution in their general
election manifestos. France and the Netherlands reject the proposal in
referendums

2006: The cross-party Better Off Out Group, seeking the UK's withdrawal
from the EU, is launched

2007: The European Commission proposes a replacement treaty, which comes
to be known as the Lisbon Treaty. The Labour government says it is a
different document, amending not overwriting existing treaties, and a
referendum is not needed. Conservative leader David Cameron gives a
"cast-iron guarantee" to hold a referendum on any treaty emerging from
the Lisbon process if he becomes PM

2008: Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg calls for an "in-out" referendum on UK
membership of the EU. MPs reject a Conservative call for a referendum on
whether the Lisbon Treaty should be ratified by 63 votes. 15 Labour MPs
and 14 Lib Dems rebel against their parties

2008: The UK ratifies the Lisbon Treaty. The High Court rejects calls
for a judicial review of the decision by Tory MP Bill Cash and
businessman Stuart Wheeler. They claim ratification without a referendum
was illegal

2009: David Cameron admits he will not be able to fulfil his pledge to
hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty because it has been ratified by
all EU member states. But he says, if elected, no future substantial
transfer of powers will take place without the approval of the British
people. The UK Independence Party, which puts an in/out referendum on UK
membership of the EU at the heart of its programme, comes second in the
European Parliament elections, with 16% of votes.

2010s:
April 2010: In their election manifesto, the Lib Dems pledge to hold an
"in-out" referendum the next time there is a "fundamental change" in the
EU's treaty arrangements

May 2010: A new generation of more eurosceptic Conservative MPs is
elected to Parliament

February 2011: Tory MP Peter Bone fails in a bid to secure an "in-out"
referendum by amending government legislation proposing a referendum in
future if big changes are made to EU treaties. Mr Bone said a second
referendum on UK membership should be triggered if the public initially
vetoed plans to hand more powers to Brussels but his plan to change the
Europe Bill is rejected

March 2011: People's Pledge campaign for a referendum is launched.

8 September 2011: A petition calling for a referendum on EU membership,
signed by 100,000 people, is handed into Downing Street

12 September 2011: More than 100 Tory MPs meet to discuss how to
reconfigure the UK's relationship with Europe in wake of the eurozone
financial crisis

17 October 2011: Backbench business committee agrees to hold a Commons
debate on EU membership following a request by Tory MP David Nuttall.

24 October 2011: The motion calling for a referendum on EU membership is
defeated in the Commons by 483 votes to 111. However, 81 Tory MPs
support it and a further two actively abstain - making it by far the
largest ever Conservative rebellion over Europe. In addition, 19 Labour
MPs and one Liberal Democrat defy their party leadership in urging a
referendum.

22 January 2013: In a long awaited speech Prime Minister David Cameron
says that if the Conservatives win the next election they would seek to
renegotiate the UK's relationship with the EU and then give the British
people the "simple choice" in 2017 between staying in the EU under those
terms or leaving the EU. His speech comes against a background of polls
suggesting UK Independence Party support at 10%.

5 July 2013: The Conservative backbencher James Wharton brings forward a
bill to enshrine in law his party's pledge to hold an in/out referendum
in 2017. It passes its second reading by 304 votes to 0. It goes on to
clear all its Commons hurdles before falling in the House of Lords.

31 January 2014: David Cameron says the Conservatives will bring back
the Private Member's Bill and said he was prepared to use the Parliament
Act to force it into law, rather than seeing the Lords block it again.

5 March 2014: It is announced that the BBC is to host a TV debate on
Britain's future in Europe between UK Independence Party leader Nigel
Farage - whose party is riding high in polls ahead of May's European
election and who wants an immediate in/out referendum - and Nick Clegg,
whose Lib Dems say they are the only "party of in" when it comes to the
EU.

12 March 2014: Ed Miliband writes an article for the Financial Times in
which he says that Labour will not hold a referendum on the UK's
membership of the European Union unless there are proposals to transfer
further powers from London to Brussels.

26 October 2014: Conservative backbencher Bob Neill brings back the EU
Referendum Bill as a Private Member's Bill. It passed its first
Parliamentary hurdle with no opposition.

28 October 2014: The Conservatives accuse their coalition partners the
Lib Dems of blocking the EU Referendum Bill after the two parties fail
to reach an agreement which would have allowed the bill to get the
necessary parliamentary time to become law.

8 May 2015: The Conservatives win a majority in the House of Commons in
the general election and immediately pledge to make good on their
election manifesto promise to hold a referendum on the UK's membership
of the EU by the end of 2017

27 May 2015: The Queen's Speech is expected to include details of the
proposed EU referendum bill - with more detail over the likely date it
will be held...
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
2018-07-26 15:52:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Not enough has been made of the reason why Cameron called the referendum.
We know why he did. It was to keep Tory backbenchers on side and to stop
voters deserting to Ukip. So it was NOT about offering the people of this
country a choice at all, but about Cameron and the Tories retaining
power. While certain people and newspapers have been complaining about
the EU for years, there was no real movement in the country, apart from
among Ukip supporters, to demand a referendum. It was Cameron in 2013 who
suggested the idea, then finally ran with it in the 2015 manifesto.
Indeed, as I pointed out at the time...

'The referendum would never have been called if the UK had had a decent
Prime Minister. As it is, you have the weakest, most incompetent PM
since Churchill, who only agreed to a referendum in an attempt to
out-UKIP UKIP'.
(Sunday 19 June 2016 in the thread 'Re: The Mail on Sunday, The
Observer and The Times all support remain!')
One can see it was a political ploy from the outset. Little, if any,
research was done prior to calling the referendum as to what would happen
post-referendum, because, as we now know, precious little was done to
plan for the eventuality of a Leave vote. Cameron was all too sure that
the result would be a vote to remain, i.e. for the status quo. This
Remain result, thought Cameron, would finally silence all his Tory
backbench bastards, who would reluctantly shove their shivs back in the
scabbard.
Wogs Out was about race, pure and simple. There were strenuous attempts
made to convince everyone that it was about (at various times)
'contributions to the EU' .... or 'unelected EU judges' [1]... or 'legal
impositions from Brussels' ... or even of course, 'straight bananas'.

But it was about 'borders', which is dog-whistle code for 'immigrants'
which of course in itself is dog-whistle code for 'nig-nogs' (with an
unhealthy dose of 'Eastern European' in there, too).

Leave voters are either stupid or racist. Stupid if they believe that the
UK could not 'control its borders', and racist if despite knowing this,
they still voted Leave.

Two camps. No third door. End of story.

Y.

[1] not that there is any such thing as a 'EU judge' [2]
[2] and as opposed to 'elected British judges', presumably...
--
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
'Our law is a Jordanian law that we inherited, which applies to both
the West Bank and Gaza, and sets the death penalty for those who sell
land to Israelis'
(Yasser Arafat)
<http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/>
Joe
2018-07-26 20:05:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:51:49 +0100
Post by MM
Did no one think to ask later what possessed him
to divide the country from top to bottom?
I believe !6 million remainers deserve to hear it from the former
Prime Minister, to hear him admit that he got the whole thing wrong
and for the divisions in the country he caused he is heartily sorry.
This is how the big lies get propagated. The same lie is often repeated
in the USA, about Trump 'dividing' the voters.

What Trump did over there and the referendum did over here was to make
manifest the existing divisions.

Neither event *caused* the respective division, they had been there for
years or decades, as must be obvious after a moment's thought.

I don't recall exactly when I repented of my 'stay in' vote in 1975,
but it was certainly a couple of decades before the second referendum.
--
Joe
Incubus
2018-07-27 10:34:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Joe
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:51:49 +0100
Post by MM
Did no one think to ask later what possessed him
to divide the country from top to bottom?
I believe !6 million remainers deserve to hear it from the former
Prime Minister, to hear him admit that he got the whole thing wrong
and for the divisions in the country he caused he is heartily sorry.
This is how the big lies get propagated. The same lie is often repeated
in the USA, about Trump 'dividing' the voters.
What Trump did over there and the referendum did over here was to make
manifest the existing divisions.
Neither event *caused* the respective division, they had been there for
years or decades, as must be obvious after a moment's thought.
Indeed, that much was surely obvious but sore losers depend on having someone
to blame when things don't go their way. It doesn't occur to them that such
issues are like a boil that must be brought to the surface and lanced; they
would prefer to maintain a dubious status quo if it favours their stance where
anyone with whom they disagree refrains from expressing their opinion and,
should they do otherwise, they can be met with accusations of sowing discord.

I believe MM is well aware of this, however, because he is quite good at
trolling.
Post by Joe
I don't recall exactly when I repented of my 'stay in' vote in 1975,
but it was certainly a couple of decades before the second referendum.
Do you mean to say that it wasn't soon after you happened to glance at the side
of a bus or when speaking with someone on Social Media whose idiomatic usage of
English precluded the use of articles definite and indefinite persuaded you to
repent your earlier vote?

Or perhaps you had become part of a select club hiding its secrets in full
view, using code words like 'sovereignty' to communicate the desire to stick it
to Johnny Foreigner and rid the country of all the blackamoors...
Joe
2018-07-27 12:28:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:34:04 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Incubus
Or perhaps you had become part of a select club hiding its secrets in
full view, using code words like 'sovereignty' to communicate the
desire to stick it to Johnny Foreigner and rid the country of all the
blackamoors...
The disadvantage to that argument is that there are no black people
native to any of the other EU members. Black immigration was entirely a
matter for successive UK governments to deal with. Whatever the reason,
none of them have.
--
Joe
MM
2018-07-28 08:57:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Joe
On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:34:04 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Incubus
Or perhaps you had become part of a select club hiding its secrets in
full view, using code words like 'sovereignty' to communicate the
desire to stick it to Johnny Foreigner and rid the country of all the
blackamoors...
The disadvantage to that argument is that there are no black people
native to any of the other EU members. Black immigration was entirely a
matter for successive UK governments to deal with. Whatever the reason,
none of them have.
"no black people native to any of the other EU members"

Got any evidence for that astounding claim?

MM
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
2018-07-27 11:05:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Joe
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:51:49 +0100
Did no one think to ask later what possessed him to divide the country
from top to bottom?
I believe !6 million remainers deserve to hear it from the former Prime
Minister, to hear him admit that he got the whole thing wrong and for
the divisions in the country he caused he is heartily sorry.
This is how the big lies get propagated. The same lie is often repeated
in the USA, about Trump 'dividing' the voters.
What Trump did over there and the referendum did over here was to make
manifest the existing divisions.
Neither event *caused* the respective division, they had been there for
years or decades, as must be obvious after a moment's thought.
I don't recall exactly when I repented of my 'stay in' vote in 1975, but
it was certainly a couple of decades before the second referendum.
Yes, 'Brexit' did not make people into rancid, frightened racists. It just
legitimised their beliefs and gave them the courage to go out on the street
and start beating up 'darkies'.

Y.
--
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
'You can't `grep` dead trees'
(Unknown)
Incubus
2018-07-27 11:20:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Joe
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:51:49 +0100
Did no one think to ask later what possessed him to divide the country
from top to bottom?
I believe !6 million remainers deserve to hear it from the former Prime
Minister, to hear him admit that he got the whole thing wrong and for
the divisions in the country he caused he is heartily sorry.
This is how the big lies get propagated. The same lie is often repeated
in the USA, about Trump 'dividing' the voters.
What Trump did over there and the referendum did over here was to make
manifest the existing divisions.
Neither event *caused* the respective division, they had been there for
years or decades, as must be obvious after a moment's thought.
I don't recall exactly when I repented of my 'stay in' vote in 1975, but
it was certainly a couple of decades before the second referendum.
Yes, 'Brexit' did not make people into rancid, frightened racists. It just
legitimised their beliefs and gave them the courage to go out on the street
and start beating up 'darkies'.
It's awful out there. I thought I was in the middle of The Purge for a moment.
Fortunately, the colour of my skin and a few hastily uttered dog-whistles about
'sovereignty' assured my safety and I was allowed to pass.

It did make for some quite gruesome trophies, however.
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
2018-08-02 10:21:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Incubus
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Joe
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:51:49 +0100
Did no one think to ask later what possessed him to divide the country
from top to bottom?
I believe !6 million remainers deserve to hear it from the former
Prime Minister, to hear him admit that he got the whole thing wrong
and for the divisions in the country he caused he is heartily sorry.
This is how the big lies get propagated. The same lie is often repeated
in the USA, about Trump 'dividing' the voters.
What Trump did over there and the referendum did over here was to make
manifest the existing divisions.
Neither event *caused* the respective division, they had been there for
years or decades, as must be obvious after a moment's thought.
I don't recall exactly when I repented of my 'stay in' vote in 1975,
but it was certainly a couple of decades before the second referendum.
Yes, 'Brexit' did not make people into rancid, frightened racists. It
just legitimised their beliefs and gave them the courage to go out on
the street and start beating up 'darkies'.
It's awful out there. I thought I was in the middle of The Purge for a
moment. Fortunately, the colour of my skin and a few hastily uttered
dog-whistles about 'sovereignty' assured my safety and I was allowed to
pass.
I am gratified that my efforts are being rewarded.
Post by Incubus
It did make for some quite gruesome trophies, however.
It's very difficult - if not impossible - to perceive 'privilege' from the
inside. And by the same token, it's difficult - if not impossible - to see
prejudice if you're not the victim. Live as a secular Jew in Europe, and
you could be forgiven for thinking that anti-Semitism was just an
overactive imagination. Put on a kippa, however, or wear some other sign
of Jewishness, and that belief vanishes.

Y.
--
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
'If women didn't exist, all the money in the world would have no
meaning'
(Aristotle Onassis)
<http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/>
Dan S. MacAbre
2018-08-02 10:35:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Incubus
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Joe
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:51:49 +0100
Did no one think to ask later what possessed him to divide the country
from top to bottom?
I believe !6 million remainers deserve to hear it from the former
Prime Minister, to hear him admit that he got the whole thing wrong
and for the divisions in the country he caused he is heartily sorry.
This is how the big lies get propagated. The same lie is often repeated
in the USA, about Trump 'dividing' the voters.
What Trump did over there and the referendum did over here was to make
manifest the existing divisions.
Neither event *caused* the respective division, they had been there for
years or decades, as must be obvious after a moment's thought.
I don't recall exactly when I repented of my 'stay in' vote in 1975,
but it was certainly a couple of decades before the second referendum.
Yes, 'Brexit' did not make people into rancid, frightened racists. It
just legitimised their beliefs and gave them the courage to go out on
the street and start beating up 'darkies'.
It's awful out there. I thought I was in the middle of The Purge for a
moment. Fortunately, the colour of my skin and a few hastily uttered
dog-whistles about 'sovereignty' assured my safety and I was allowed to
pass.
I am gratified that my efforts are being rewarded.
Post by Incubus
It did make for some quite gruesome trophies, however.
It's very difficult - if not impossible - to perceive 'privilege' from the
inside. And by the same token, it's difficult - if not impossible - to see
prejudice if you're not the victim. Live as a secular Jew in Europe, and
you could be forgiven for thinking that anti-Semitism was just an
overactive imagination. Put on a kippa, however, or wear some other sign
of Jewishness, and that belief vanishes.
Y.
I think that most people are only really comfortable with people who do
the same things as they do. I'm not entirely convinced that skin colour
is the most significant factor. ISTM that clothes and behaviour may be
actually be more significant, and I'm sure that if people were told
that, they'd think about it a little, and start to relax a bit. Also,
I'm pretty sure that it's not only white westerners that behave like
this, although that's what it seems we are meant to think :-)
MM
2018-08-02 16:27:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Incubus
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Joe
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:51:49 +0100
Did no one think to ask later what possessed him to divide the country
from top to bottom?
I believe !6 million remainers deserve to hear it from the former
Prime Minister, to hear him admit that he got the whole thing wrong
and for the divisions in the country he caused he is heartily sorry.
This is how the big lies get propagated. The same lie is often repeated
in the USA, about Trump 'dividing' the voters.
What Trump did over there and the referendum did over here was to make
manifest the existing divisions.
Neither event *caused* the respective division, they had been there for
years or decades, as must be obvious after a moment's thought.
I don't recall exactly when I repented of my 'stay in' vote in 1975,
but it was certainly a couple of decades before the second referendum.
Yes, 'Brexit' did not make people into rancid, frightened racists. It
just legitimised their beliefs and gave them the courage to go out on
the street and start beating up 'darkies'.
It's awful out there. I thought I was in the middle of The Purge for a
moment. Fortunately, the colour of my skin and a few hastily uttered
dog-whistles about 'sovereignty' assured my safety and I was allowed to
pass.
I am gratified that my efforts are being rewarded.
Post by Incubus
It did make for some quite gruesome trophies, however.
It's very difficult - if not impossible - to perceive 'privilege' from the
inside. And by the same token, it's difficult - if not impossible - to see
prejudice if you're not the victim. Live as a secular Jew in Europe, and
you could be forgiven for thinking that anti-Semitism was just an
overactive imagination. Put on a kippa, however, or wear some other sign
of Jewishness, and that belief vanishes.
Y.
I think that most people are only really comfortable with people who do
the same things as they do.
Most *blinkered* people, perhaps.

MM
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
2018-08-03 18:27:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
It's very difficult - if not impossible - to perceive 'privilege' from
the inside. And by the same token, it's difficult - if not impossible -
to see prejudice if you're not the victim. Live as a secular Jew in
Europe, and you could be forgiven for thinking that anti-Semitism was
just an overactive imagination. Put on a kippa, however, or wear some
other sign of Jewishness, and that belief vanishes.
I think that most people are only really comfortable with people who do
the same things as they do. I'm not entirely convinced that skin colour
is the most significant factor. ISTM that clothes and behaviour may be
actually be more significant, and I'm sure that if people were told that,
they'd think about it a little, and start to relax a bit. Also, I'm
pretty sure that it's not only white westerners that behave like this,
although that's what it seems we are meant to think :-)
Ever been to Asia?

Y.
--
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
'I'm such a good lover because I practice a lot on my own'
(Woody Allen (1935 - ))
<http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/>
aioe.org
2018-08-07 16:58:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
It's very difficult - if not impossible - to perceive 'privilege' from
the inside. And by the same token, it's difficult - if not impossible -
to see prejudice if you're not the victim. Live as a secular Jew in
Europe, and you could be forgiven for thinking that anti-Semitism was
just an overactive imagination. Put on a kippa, however, or wear some
other sign of Jewishness, and that belief vanishes.
I think that most people are only really comfortable with people who do
the same things as they do. I'm not entirely convinced that skin colour
is the most significant factor. ISTM that clothes and behaviour may be
actually be more significant, and I'm sure that if people were told that,
they'd think about it a little, and start to relax a bit. Also, I'm
pretty sure that it's not only white westerners that behave like this,
although that's what it seems we are meant to think :-)
Ever been to Asia?
Y.
Thailand?
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
2018-08-08 11:56:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by aioe.org
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
It's very difficult - if not impossible - to perceive 'privilege'
from the inside. And by the same token, it's difficult - if not
impossible - to see prejudice if you're not the victim. Live as a
secular Jew in Europe, and you could be forgiven for thinking that
anti-Semitism was just an overactive imagination. Put on a kippa,
however, or wear some other sign of Jewishness, and that belief
vanishes.
I think that most people are only really comfortable with people who
do the same things as they do. I'm not entirely convinced that skin
colour is the most significant factor. ISTM that clothes and
behaviour may be actually be more significant, and I'm sure that if
people were told that, they'd think about it a little, and start to
relax a bit. Also, I'm pretty sure that it's not only white
westerners that behave like this, although that's what it seems we are
meant to think :-)
Ever been to Asia?
Thailand?
Very good.

Y.
--
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
'The view that Zionism is Nazism is not different
in kind from the view that the moon is cheese...'
(Leon Wieseltier, _New Republic_ Literary Editor)
<http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/>
Incubus
2018-08-02 10:37:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Incubus
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Joe
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:51:49 +0100
Did no one think to ask later what possessed him to divide the country
from top to bottom?
I believe !6 million remainers deserve to hear it from the former
Prime Minister, to hear him admit that he got the whole thing wrong
and for the divisions in the country he caused he is heartily sorry.
This is how the big lies get propagated. The same lie is often repeated
in the USA, about Trump 'dividing' the voters.
What Trump did over there and the referendum did over here was to make
manifest the existing divisions.
Neither event *caused* the respective division, they had been there for
years or decades, as must be obvious after a moment's thought.
I don't recall exactly when I repented of my 'stay in' vote in 1975,
but it was certainly a couple of decades before the second referendum.
Yes, 'Brexit' did not make people into rancid, frightened racists. It
just legitimised their beliefs and gave them the courage to go out on
the street and start beating up 'darkies'.
It's awful out there. I thought I was in the middle of The Purge for a
moment. Fortunately, the colour of my skin and a few hastily uttered
dog-whistles about 'sovereignty' assured my safety and I was allowed to
pass.
I am gratified that my efforts are being rewarded.
Post by Incubus
It did make for some quite gruesome trophies, however.
It's very difficult - if not impossible - to perceive 'privilege' from the
inside. And by the same token, it's difficult - if not impossible - to see
prejudice if you're not the victim. Live as a secular Jew in Europe, and
you could be forgiven for thinking that anti-Semitism was just an
overactive imagination. Put on a kippa, however, or wear some other sign
of Jewishness, and that belief vanishes.
I won't dispute that. However, as a white man, I have experienced a lot of
prejudice from black and Moslem neighbourhoods that the Left denies occurs or,
where it is acknowledged, is either excused or is not perceived as racism
because apparently I have all the power and privilege in the wider context.
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
2018-08-02 10:41:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Incubus
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Incubus
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Joe
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:51:49 +0100
Did no one think to ask later what possessed him to divide the
country from top to bottom?
I believe !6 million remainers deserve to hear it from the former
Prime Minister, to hear him admit that he got the whole thing wrong
and for the divisions in the country he caused he is heartily sorry.
This is how the big lies get propagated. The same lie is often
repeated in the USA, about Trump 'dividing' the voters.
What Trump did over there and the referendum did over here was to
make manifest the existing divisions.
Neither event *caused* the respective division, they had been there
for years or decades, as must be obvious after a moment's thought.
I don't recall exactly when I repented of my 'stay in' vote in 1975,
but it was certainly a couple of decades before the second
referendum.
Yes, 'Brexit' did not make people into rancid, frightened racists. It
just legitimised their beliefs and gave them the courage to go out on
the street and start beating up 'darkies'.
It's awful out there. I thought I was in the middle of The Purge for a
moment. Fortunately, the colour of my skin and a few hastily uttered
dog-whistles about 'sovereignty' assured my safety and I was allowed to
pass.
I am gratified that my efforts are being rewarded.
Post by Incubus
It did make for some quite gruesome trophies, however.
It's very difficult - if not impossible - to perceive 'privilege' from
the inside. And by the same token, it's difficult - if not impossible -
to see prejudice if you're not the victim. Live as a secular Jew in
Europe, and you could be forgiven for thinking that anti-Semitism was
just an overactive imagination. Put on a kippa, however, or wear some
other sign of Jewishness, and that belief vanishes.
I won't dispute that. However, as a white man, I have experienced a lot
of prejudice from black and Moslem neighbourhoods that the Left denies
occurs or, where it is acknowledged, is either excused or is not
perceived as racism because apparently I have all the power and privilege
in the wider context.
I don't excuse it.

You know what, though? When I think of what was done to black people by
white people over the centuries - I'm surprised they don't _all_ hate us.

Y.
--
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
'The mood and temper of the public in regard to the treatment of crime
and criminals is one of the most unfailing tests of the civilisation of
any country'
(Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965))
<http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/>
abelard
2018-08-02 10:51:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 11:41:12 +0100, Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Incubus
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Incubus
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Joe
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:51:49 +0100
Did no one think to ask later what possessed him to divide the
country from top to bottom?
I believe !6 million remainers deserve to hear it from the former
Prime Minister, to hear him admit that he got the whole thing wrong
and for the divisions in the country he caused he is heartily sorry.
This is how the big lies get propagated. The same lie is often
repeated in the USA, about Trump 'dividing' the voters.
What Trump did over there and the referendum did over here was to
make manifest the existing divisions.
Neither event *caused* the respective division, they had been there
for years or decades, as must be obvious after a moment's thought.
I don't recall exactly when I repented of my 'stay in' vote in 1975,
but it was certainly a couple of decades before the second referendum.
Yes, 'Brexit' did not make people into rancid, frightened racists. It
just legitimised their beliefs and gave them the courage to go out on
the street and start beating up 'darkies'.
It's awful out there. I thought I was in the middle of The Purge for a
moment. Fortunately, the colour of my skin and a few hastily uttered
dog-whistles about 'sovereignty' assured my safety and I was allowed to
pass.
I am gratified that my efforts are being rewarded.
Post by Incubus
It did make for some quite gruesome trophies, however.
It's very difficult - if not impossible - to perceive 'privilege' from
the inside. And by the same token, it's difficult - if not impossible -
to see prejudice if you're not the victim. Live as a secular Jew in
Europe, and you could be forgiven for thinking that anti-Semitism was
just an overactive imagination. Put on a kippa, however, or wear some
other sign of Jewishness, and that belief vanishes.
I won't dispute that. However, as a white man, I have experienced a lot
of prejudice from black and Moslem neighbourhoods that the Left denies
occurs or, where it is acknowledged, is either excused or is not
perceived as racism because apparently I have all the power and privilege
in the wider context.
I don't excuse it.
You know what, though? When I think of what was done to black people by
white people over the centuries - I'm surprised they don't _all_ hate us.
'they' don't all hate 'us' because so many of 'them' are not stupid...
--
www.abelard.org
Dan S. MacAbre
2018-08-02 11:05:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by abelard
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 11:41:12 +0100, Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Incubus
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Incubus
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Joe
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:51:49 +0100
Did no one think to ask later what possessed him to divide the
country from top to bottom?
I believe !6 million remainers deserve to hear it from the former
Prime Minister, to hear him admit that he got the whole thing wrong
and for the divisions in the country he caused he is heartily sorry.
This is how the big lies get propagated. The same lie is often
repeated in the USA, about Trump 'dividing' the voters.
What Trump did over there and the referendum did over here was to
make manifest the existing divisions.
Neither event *caused* the respective division, they had been there
for years or decades, as must be obvious after a moment's thought.
I don't recall exactly when I repented of my 'stay in' vote in 1975,
but it was certainly a couple of decades before the second referendum.
Yes, 'Brexit' did not make people into rancid, frightened racists. It
just legitimised their beliefs and gave them the courage to go out on
the street and start beating up 'darkies'.
It's awful out there. I thought I was in the middle of The Purge for a
moment. Fortunately, the colour of my skin and a few hastily uttered
dog-whistles about 'sovereignty' assured my safety and I was allowed to
pass.
I am gratified that my efforts are being rewarded.
Post by Incubus
It did make for some quite gruesome trophies, however.
It's very difficult - if not impossible - to perceive 'privilege' from
the inside. And by the same token, it's difficult - if not impossible -
to see prejudice if you're not the victim. Live as a secular Jew in
Europe, and you could be forgiven for thinking that anti-Semitism was
just an overactive imagination. Put on a kippa, however, or wear some
other sign of Jewishness, and that belief vanishes.
I won't dispute that. However, as a white man, I have experienced a lot
of prejudice from black and Moslem neighbourhoods that the Left denies
occurs or, where it is acknowledged, is either excused or is not
perceived as racism because apparently I have all the power and privilege
in the wider context.
I don't excuse it.
You know what, though? When I think of what was done to black people by
white people over the centuries - I'm surprised they don't _all_ hate us.
'they' don't all hate 'us' because so many of 'them' are not stupid...
It is surely wrong to hate someone today because someone in the past did
something to someone else?
abelard
2018-08-02 11:11:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by abelard
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 11:41:12 +0100, Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Incubus
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Incubus
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Joe
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:51:49 +0100
Did no one think to ask later what possessed him to divide the
country from top to bottom?
I believe !6 million remainers deserve to hear it from the former
Prime Minister, to hear him admit that he got the whole thing wrong
and for the divisions in the country he caused he is heartily sorry.
This is how the big lies get propagated. The same lie is often
repeated in the USA, about Trump 'dividing' the voters.
What Trump did over there and the referendum did over here was to
make manifest the existing divisions.
Neither event *caused* the respective division, they had been there
for years or decades, as must be obvious after a moment's thought.
I don't recall exactly when I repented of my 'stay in' vote in 1975,
but it was certainly a couple of decades before the second referendum.
Yes, 'Brexit' did not make people into rancid, frightened racists. It
just legitimised their beliefs and gave them the courage to go out on
the street and start beating up 'darkies'.
It's awful out there. I thought I was in the middle of The Purge for a
moment. Fortunately, the colour of my skin and a few hastily uttered
dog-whistles about 'sovereignty' assured my safety and I was allowed to
pass.
I am gratified that my efforts are being rewarded.
Post by Incubus
It did make for some quite gruesome trophies, however.
It's very difficult - if not impossible - to perceive 'privilege' from
the inside. And by the same token, it's difficult - if not impossible -
to see prejudice if you're not the victim. Live as a secular Jew in
Europe, and you could be forgiven for thinking that anti-Semitism was
just an overactive imagination. Put on a kippa, however, or wear some
other sign of Jewishness, and that belief vanishes.
I won't dispute that. However, as a white man, I have experienced a lot
of prejudice from black and Moslem neighbourhoods that the Left denies
occurs or, where it is acknowledged, is either excused or is not
perceived as racism because apparently I have all the power and privilege
in the wider context.
I don't excuse it.
You know what, though? When I think of what was done to black people by
white people over the centuries - I'm surprised they don't _all_ hate us.
'they' don't all hate 'us' because so many of 'them' are not stupid...
It is surely wrong to hate someone today because someone in the past did
something to someone else?
naturally...but you are not an emotional twerp like pork pie

socialism rots the mind

it takes time to reorder the mind of a person infected by the cult
--
www.abelard.org
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
2018-08-03 17:40:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by abelard
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
It is surely wrong to hate someone today because someone in the past did
something to someone else?
naturally...but you are not an emotional twerp like pork pie
socialism rots the mind
it takes time to reorder the mind of a person infected by the cult
Our poor former astronaut, it must be a massive 'come-down' to be reduced
to trolling Usenet.

Y.
--
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
'No amount of cajolery can eradicate from my heart a deep burning
hatred for the Tory Party. They are lower than vermin'.
(Aneurin Bevan (1897 - 1960))
<http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/>
MM
2018-08-02 16:35:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by abelard
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 11:41:12 +0100, Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Incubus
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Incubus
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Joe
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:51:49 +0100
Did no one think to ask later what possessed him to divide the
country from top to bottom?
I believe !6 million remainers deserve to hear it from the former
Prime Minister, to hear him admit that he got the whole thing wrong
and for the divisions in the country he caused he is heartily sorry.
This is how the big lies get propagated. The same lie is often
repeated in the USA, about Trump 'dividing' the voters.
What Trump did over there and the referendum did over here was to
make manifest the existing divisions.
Neither event *caused* the respective division, they had been there
for years or decades, as must be obvious after a moment's thought.
I don't recall exactly when I repented of my 'stay in' vote in 1975,
but it was certainly a couple of decades before the second referendum.
Yes, 'Brexit' did not make people into rancid, frightened racists. It
just legitimised their beliefs and gave them the courage to go out on
the street and start beating up 'darkies'.
It's awful out there. I thought I was in the middle of The Purge for a
moment. Fortunately, the colour of my skin and a few hastily uttered
dog-whistles about 'sovereignty' assured my safety and I was allowed to
pass.
I am gratified that my efforts are being rewarded.
Post by Incubus
It did make for some quite gruesome trophies, however.
It's very difficult - if not impossible - to perceive 'privilege' from
the inside. And by the same token, it's difficult - if not impossible -
to see prejudice if you're not the victim. Live as a secular Jew in
Europe, and you could be forgiven for thinking that anti-Semitism was
just an overactive imagination. Put on a kippa, however, or wear some
other sign of Jewishness, and that belief vanishes.
I won't dispute that. However, as a white man, I have experienced a lot
of prejudice from black and Moslem neighbourhoods that the Left denies
occurs or, where it is acknowledged, is either excused or is not
perceived as racism because apparently I have all the power and privilege
in the wider context.
I don't excuse it.
You know what, though? When I think of what was done to black people by
white people over the centuries - I'm surprised they don't _all_ hate us.
'they' don't all hate 'us' because so many of 'them' are not stupid...
It is surely wrong to hate someone today because someone in the past did
something to someone else?
What did black people ever do to make white people hate them so much?
The black/ethnic races were ALWAYS put upon by whitey, right back to
King Phillip's War in 1620. This despite all the help from the
indigenous population to survive the first winter when the Pilgrims
landed.

MM
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
2018-08-03 17:40:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by abelard
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 11:41:12 +0100, Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
You know what, though? When I think of what was done to black people by
white people over the centuries - I'm surprised they don't _all_ hate us.
'they' don't all hate 'us' because so many of 'them' are not stupid...
Thus putting them one up on you. I'm glad that you accept that, at least.

Now, about these 'socialist' policies of Hitler......... which you keep
mentioning, but never actually cite.

Y.
--
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
'It is hard to see how the Arab world, still less the Arabs of
Fakestine, will suffer from what is mere recognition of accomplished
fact - the presence in Fakestine of a compact, well organized, and
virtually autonomous Jewish community'
(_The Times_ editorial, 01 December 1947)
abelard
2018-08-03 19:32:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 18:40:05 +0100, Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by abelard
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 11:41:12 +0100, Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
You know what, though? When I think of what was done to black people by
white people over the centuries - I'm surprised they don't _all_ hate us.
'they' don't all hate 'us' because so many of 'them' are not stupid...
Thus putting them one up on you. I'm glad that you accept that, at least.
Now, about these 'socialist' policies of Hitler......... which you keep
mentioning, but never actually cite.
liar
--
www.abelard.org
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
2018-08-08 07:21:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by abelard
On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 18:40:05 +0100, Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by abelard
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 11:41:12 +0100, Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
You know what, though? When I think of what was done to black people
by white people over the centuries - I'm surprised they don't _all_
hate us.
'they' don't all hate 'us' because so many of 'them' are not stupid...
Thus putting them one up on you. I'm glad that you accept that, at least.
Now, about these 'socialist' policies of Hitler......... which you keep
mentioning, but never actually cite.
liar
Another brainless dodge from the brainless twat of the newsgroup. All
you've given us so far - after several thousand requests - was a list of
manifesto statements. That's like claiming that because the Tory Party
manifesto has wave-hand-in-the-air quotes like, 'helping the sick,' that
the NHS is 'safe' in their hands.

Y.
--
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
'Oh just, subtle, and mighty opium!'
(Thomas de Quincey (1785 - 1859))
<http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/>
abelard
2018-08-09 10:57:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 8 Aug 2018 08:21:45 +0100, Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by abelard
On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 18:40:05 +0100, Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by abelard
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 11:41:12 +0100, Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
You know what, though? When I think of what was done to black people
by white people over the centuries - I'm surprised they don't _all_
hate us.
'they' don't all hate 'us' because so many of 'them' are not stupid...
Thus putting them one up on you. I'm glad that you accept that, at least.
Now, about these 'socialist' policies of Hitler......... which you keep
mentioning, but never actually cite.
liar
Another brainless dodge from the brainless twat of the newsgroup. All
you've given us so far - after several thousand requests - was a list of
manifesto statements. That's like claiming that because the Tory Party
manifesto has wave-hand-in-the-air quotes like, 'helping the sick,' that
the NHS is 'safe' in their hands.
no it isn't...but there are many more you could read at
my site


Any who doubt the socialist credentials of Hitler’s designs may refer
to:
Schoenbaum, for instance, chapter 2: ‘The Third Reich and its Social
Ideology’;
and to
Overy, chapter 3: ‘Goering and the German economy’.



vol 2 of mein kampf...
The second volume, entitled Die Nationalsozialistische Bewegung (The
National Socialist Movement)

“National socialism derives from each of two camps the pure idea that
characterises it:
National resolution from bourgeois tradition;
vital, creative socialism from the teaching of Marxism.” [January,
1934]

“We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic
system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair
salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to
wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we
are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions.”
Toland (Speech of May 1, 1927), 1976, p. 306 Adolf Hitler : The
Definitive Biography


you could also read up on mosley's(hitler's friend) comments on
socialism
https://www.abelard.org/oswald_mosley_national_socialist.php

“The National Socialist creed of British Union says to our countrymen,
‘If you love our country you are national, and if you love our people
you are socialist’.”

“We are, in this respect only, in precisely the same position of the
Labour Party. They are called the Labour Party with the International
Socialist creed; we are called the British Union with the National
Socialist, or Fascist creed. Our Movement and our name are purely
British. Our creed, on the other hand, is universal but, being a
national creed, in every country has a character, policy, form, and
method, suited to that country alone.”
[Written answer from Mosley’s British Union, July 1939]

here are some books for you not that i expect you to
actually study...

Books that liberate the obscuring of the realities of
socialism/fascism.

Here are a few :

Dupes by Paul Kengor Five GoldenYak (tm) award

Useful Idiots: How Liberals Got It Wrong in the Cold War and Still
Blame America First by Mona Charen Three GoldenYak (tm) award

United in hate - the left’s romance with tyranny and terror by Jamie
Glazov Five GoldenYak (tm) award

Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From
Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning by Jonah Goldberg

Demonic by Ann Coulter
Mostly on the mob mentality of the Left and on the French Revolution.


fascism and socialism are one and the same



but why not be honest for change and admit you don't
really want to know
--
www.abelard.org
DoD
2018-08-09 15:56:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by abelard
On Wed, 8 Aug 2018 08:21:45 +0100, Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by abelard
On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 18:40:05 +0100, Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by abelard
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 11:41:12 +0100, Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
You know what, though? When I think of what was done to black people
by white people over the centuries - I'm surprised they don't _all_
hate us.
'they' don't all hate 'us' because so many of 'them' are not stupid...
Thus putting them one up on you. I'm glad that you accept that, at least.
Now, about these 'socialist' policies of Hitler......... which you keep
mentioning, but never actually cite.
liar
Another brainless dodge from the brainless twat of the newsgroup. All
you've given us so far - after several thousand requests - was a list of
manifesto statements. That's like claiming that because the Tory Party
manifesto has wave-hand-in-the-air quotes like, 'helping the sick,' that
the NHS is 'safe' in their hands.
no it isn't...but there are many more you could read at
my site
Any who doubt the socialist credentials of Hitler's designs may refer
Schoenbaum, for instance, chapter 2: 'The Third Reich and its Social
Ideology';
and to
Overy, chapter 3: 'Goering and the German economy'.
vol 2 of mein kampf...
The second volume, entitled Die Nationalsozialistische Bewegung (The
National Socialist Movement)
"National socialism derives from each of two camps the pure idea that
National resolution from bourgeois tradition;
vital, creative socialism from the teaching of Marxism." [January,
1934]
"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic
system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair
salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to
wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we
are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions."
Toland (Speech of May 1, 1927), 1976, p. 306 Adolf Hitler : The
Definitive Biography
you could also read up on mosley's(hitler's friend) comments on
socialism
https://www.abelard.org/oswald_mosley_national_socialist.php
"The National Socialist creed of British Union says to our countrymen,
'If you love our country you are national, and if you love our people
you are socialist'."
"We are, in this respect only, in precisely the same position of the
Labour Party. They are called the Labour Party with the International
Socialist creed; we are called the British Union with the National
Socialist, or Fascist creed. Our Movement and our name are purely
British. Our creed, on the other hand, is universal but, being a
national creed, in every country has a character, policy, form, and
method, suited to that country alone."
[Written answer from Mosley's British Union, July 1939]
here are some books for you not that i expect you to
actually study...
Books that liberate the obscuring of the realities of
socialism/fascism.
Dupes by Paul Kengor Five GoldenYak (tm) award
Useful Idiots: How Liberals Got It Wrong in the Cold War and Still
Blame America First by Mona Charen Three GoldenYak (tm) award
United in hate - the left's romance with tyranny and terror by Jamie
Glazov Five GoldenYak (tm) award
Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From
Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning by Jonah Goldberg
Demonic by Ann Coulter
Mostly on the mob mentality of the Left and on the French Revolution.
fascism and socialism are one and the same
but why not be honest for change and admit you don't
really want to know
"Liberals are like alcoholics..."

Hillel Gazit...
--
People that are unwilling to admit to their own
shortcomings, discredit the achievement of others
by transforming it into "privilege".

"White privilege" is a term used by sore losers.
Don't be a sore loser.

Candace Owens
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
2018-08-10 09:10:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by abelard
On Wed, 8 Aug 2018 08:21:45 +0100, Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by abelard
On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 18:40:05 +0100, Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by abelard
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 11:41:12 +0100, Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
You know what, though? When I think of what was done to black people
by white people over the centuries - I'm surprised they don't _all_
hate us.
'they' don't all hate 'us' because so many of 'them' are not stupid...
Thus putting them one up on you. I'm glad that you accept that, at least.
Now, about these 'socialist' policies of Hitler......... which you keep
mentioning, but never actually cite.
liar
Another brainless dodge from the brainless twat of the newsgroup. All
you've given us so far - after several thousand requests - was a list of
manifesto statements. That's like claiming that because the Tory Party
manifesto has wave-hand-in-the-air quotes like, 'helping the sick,' that
the NHS is 'safe' in their hands.
no it isn't...but there are many more you could read at
my site
Your vanity site? Why don't I just go to godaddy or some similar tosh?
Post by abelard
Any who doubt the socialist credentials of Hitler?s designs may refer
Schoenbaum, for instance, chapter 2: ?The Third Reich and its Social
Ideology?;
and to
Overy, chapter 3: ?Goering and the German economy?.
vol 2 of mein kampf...
The second volume, entitled Die Nationalsozialistische Bewegung (The
National Socialist Movement)
?National socialism derives from each of two camps the pure idea that
National resolution from bourgeois tradition;
vital, creative socialism from the teaching of Marxism.? [January,
1934]
?We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic
system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair
salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to
wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we
are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions.?
Toland (Speech of May 1, 1927), 1976, p. 306 Adolf Hitler : The
Definitive Biography
you could also read up on mosley's(hitler's friend) comments on
socialism
https://www.abelard.org/oswald_mosley_national_socialist.php
?The National Socialist creed of British Union says to our countrymen,
?If you love our country you are national, and if you love our people
you are socialist?.?
?We are, in this respect only, in precisely the same position of the
Labour Party. They are called the Labour Party with the International
Socialist creed; we are called the British Union with the National
Socialist, or Fascist creed. Our Movement and our name are purely
British. Our creed, on the other hand, is universal but, being a
national creed, in every country has a character, policy, form, and
method, suited to that country alone.?
[Written answer from Mosley?s British Union, July 1939]
here are some books for you not that i expect you to
actually study...
Books that liberate the obscuring of the realities of
socialism/fascism.
Dupes by Paul Kengor Five GoldenYak (tm) award
Useful Idiots: How Liberals Got It Wrong in the Cold War and Still
Blame America First by Mona Charen Three GoldenYak (tm) award
United in hate - the left?s romance with tyranny and terror by Jamie
Glazov Five GoldenYak (tm) award
Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From
Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning by Jonah Goldberg
Demonic by Ann Coulter
Mostly on the mob mentality of the Left and on the French Revolution.
Hey, did anyone else notice? I asked for Hitler's 'socialist' policies,
and instead, he trotted out some quotes from others that he has on his
vanity website. In other words ..

1. he has no fucking idea whether Hitler implemented 'socialist' policies

And ...

2. Hitler did not implement 'socialist' policies. A reminder for the
hard of thinking...

'A theory or system of social organization based on state or collective
ownership and regulation of the means of production, distribution, and
exchange for the common benefit of all members of society...'
(_The OED_, retrieved 30 June 2018)
Post by abelard
fascism and socialism are one and the same
Since they're both multisyllabic words, how would you know?

Come on! Try harder! You must be able to win at least _one_ argument!

Y.
--
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
'Unsuccessful candidates for the Presidency should be quietly hanged as
a matter of public sanitation and decorum'
(H.L. Mencken)
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/>
abelard
2018-08-10 09:31:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 10:10:51 +0100, Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by abelard
On Wed, 8 Aug 2018 08:21:45 +0100, Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by abelard
On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 18:40:05 +0100, Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by abelard
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 11:41:12 +0100, Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
You know what, though? When I think of what was done to black people
by white people over the centuries - I'm surprised they don't _all_
hate us.
'they' don't all hate 'us' because so many of 'them' are not stupid...
Thus putting them one up on you. I'm glad that you accept that, at least.
Now, about these 'socialist' policies of Hitler......... which you keep
mentioning, but never actually cite.
liar
Another brainless dodge from the brainless twat of the newsgroup. All
you've given us so far - after several thousand requests - was a list of
manifesto statements. That's like claiming that because the Tory Party
manifesto has wave-hand-in-the-air quotes like, 'helping the sick,' that
the NHS is 'safe' in their hands.
no it isn't...but there are many more you could read at
my site
Your vanity site? Why don't I just go to godaddy or some similar tosh?
Post by abelard
Any who doubt the socialist credentials of Hitler?s designs may refer
Schoenbaum, for instance, chapter 2: ?The Third Reich and its Social
Ideology?;
and to
Overy, chapter 3: ?Goering and the German economy?.
vol 2 of mein kampf...
The second volume, entitled Die Nationalsozialistische Bewegung (The
National Socialist Movement)
?National socialism derives from each of two camps the pure idea that
National resolution from bourgeois tradition;
vital, creative socialism from the teaching of Marxism.? [January,
1934]
?We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic
system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair
salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to
wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we
are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions.?
Toland (Speech of May 1, 1927), 1976, p. 306 Adolf Hitler : The
Definitive Biography
you could also read up on mosley's(hitler's friend) comments on
socialism
https://www.abelard.org/oswald_mosley_national_socialist.php
?The National Socialist creed of British Union says to our countrymen,
?If you love our country you are national, and if you love our people
you are socialist?.?
?We are, in this respect only, in precisely the same position of the
Labour Party. They are called the Labour Party with the International
Socialist creed; we are called the British Union with the National
Socialist, or Fascist creed. Our Movement and our name are purely
British. Our creed, on the other hand, is universal but, being a
national creed, in every country has a character, policy, form, and
method, suited to that country alone.?
[Written answer from Mosley?s British Union, July 1939]
here are some books for you not that i expect you to
actually study...
Books that liberate the obscuring of the realities of
socialism/fascism.
Dupes by Paul Kengor Five GoldenYak (tm) award
Useful Idiots: How Liberals Got It Wrong in the Cold War and Still
Blame America First by Mona Charen Three GoldenYak (tm) award
United in hate - the left?s romance with tyranny and terror by Jamie
Glazov Five GoldenYak (tm) award
Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From
Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning by Jonah Goldberg
Demonic by Ann Coulter
Mostly on the mob mentality of the Left and on the French Revolution.
Hey, did anyone else notice? I asked for Hitler's 'socialist' policies,
and instead, he trotted out some quotes from others that he has on his
vanity website. In other words ..
1. he has no fucking idea whether Hitler implemented 'socialist' policies
And ...
2. Hitler did not implement 'socialist' policies. A reminder for the
hard of thinking...
'A theory or system of social organization based on state or collective
ownership and regulation of the means of production, distribution, and
exchange for the common benefit of all members of society...'
(_The OED_, retrieved 30 June 2018)
Post by abelard
fascism and socialism are one and the same
Since they're both multisyllabic words, how would you know?
Come on! Try harder! You must be able to win at least _one_ argument!
yes, i know that you don't wish to stop clinging to your mad cult

you seem to suffer under the delusion that you will be taken
seriously
--
www.abelard.org
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
2018-08-10 12:46:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by abelard
On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 10:10:51 +0100, Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by abelard
On Wed, 8 Aug 2018 08:21:45 +0100, Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by abelard
On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 18:40:05 +0100, Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by abelard
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 11:41:12 +0100, Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
You know what, though? When I think of what was done to black
people by white people over the centuries - I'm surprised they
don't _all_ hate us.
'they' don't all hate 'us' because so many of 'them' are not stupid...
Thus putting them one up on you. I'm glad that you accept that, at least.
Now, about these 'socialist' policies of Hitler......... which you
keep mentioning, but never actually cite.
liar
Another brainless dodge from the brainless twat of the newsgroup. All
you've given us so far - after several thousand requests - was a list
of manifesto statements. That's like claiming that because the Tory
Party manifesto has wave-hand-in-the-air quotes like, 'helping the
sick,' that the NHS is 'safe' in their hands.
no it isn't...but there are many more you could read at my site
Your vanity site? Why don't I just go to godaddy or some similar tosh?
Post by abelard
Any who doubt the socialist credentials of Hitler?s designs may refer
to: Schoenbaum, for instance, chapter 2: ?The Third Reich and its
Social Ideology?; and to Overy, chapter 3: ?Goering and the German
economy?.
vol 2 of mein kampf... The second volume, entitled Die
Nationalsozialistische Bewegung (The National Socialist Movement)
?National socialism derives from each of two camps the pure idea that
characterises it: National resolution from bourgeois tradition; vital,
creative socialism from the teaching of Marxism.? [January, 1934]
?We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic
system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair
salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to
wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we
are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions.?
Toland (Speech of May 1, 1927), 1976, p. 306 Adolf Hitler : The
Definitive Biography
you could also read up on mosley's(hitler's friend) comments on
socialism https://www.abelard.org/oswald_mosley_national_socialist.php
?The National Socialist creed of British Union says to our countrymen,
?If you love our country you are national, and if you love our people
you are socialist?.?
?We are, in this respect only, in precisely the same position of the
Labour Party. They are called the Labour Party with the International
Socialist creed; we are called the British Union with the National
Socialist, or Fascist creed. Our Movement and our name are purely
British. Our creed, on the other hand, is universal but, being a
national creed, in every country has a character, policy, form, and
method, suited to that country alone.? [Written answer from Mosley?s
British Union, July 1939]
here are some books for you not that i expect you to actually study...
Books that liberate the obscuring of the realities of
socialism/fascism.
Dupes by Paul Kengor Five GoldenYak (tm) award
Useful Idiots: How Liberals Got It Wrong in the Cold War and Still
Blame America First by Mona Charen Three GoldenYak (tm) award
United in hate - the left?s romance with tyranny and terror by Jamie
Glazov Five GoldenYak (tm) award
Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From
Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning by Jonah Goldberg
Demonic by Ann Coulter Mostly on the mob mentality of the Left and on
the French Revolution.
Hey, did anyone else notice? I asked for Hitler's 'socialist' policies,
and instead, he trotted out some quotes from others that he has on his
vanity website. In other words ..
1. he has no fucking idea whether Hitler implemented 'socialist' policies
And ...
2. Hitler did not implement 'socialist' policies. A reminder for the
hard of thinking...
'A theory or system of social organization based on state or
collective ownership and regulation of the means of production,
distribution, and exchange for the common benefit of all members
of society...' (_The OED_, retrieved 30 June 2018)
Post by abelard
fascism and socialism are one and the same
Since they're both multisyllabic words, how would you know?
Come on! Try harder! You must be able to win at least _one_ argument!
yes, i know that you don't wish to stop clinging to your mad cult
you seem to suffer under the delusion that you will be taken seriously
Yet more inane, vapid, utterly weak dodging from the 'village idiot' of
uk.politics.misc.

The group is still waiting for you to tell us all about Hitler's
'socialist' policies. Not 'promises' to 'implement socialist policies'.
Not mindless rants when he was in gaol and not in a position to implement
'socialist policies'. Tell us about the 'socialist policies' he actually
put into practice. Here's a reminder of the parameters....

'A theory or system of social organization based on state or collective
ownership and regulation of the means of production, distribution, and
exchange for the common benefit of all members of society...'
(_The OED_, retrieved 30 June 2018)

Y.
--
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
'For the first time in Mideast history, there is an independent
judiciary willing to listen to grievances of Arabs - that judiciary is
called the Israeli Supreme Court'
(Professor Alan M. Dershowitz (1938 - ))
<http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/>
Incubus
2018-08-02 11:46:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Incubus
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Incubus
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Joe
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:51:49 +0100
Did no one think to ask later what possessed him to divide the
country from top to bottom?
I believe !6 million remainers deserve to hear it from the former
Prime Minister, to hear him admit that he got the whole thing wrong
and for the divisions in the country he caused he is heartily sorry.
This is how the big lies get propagated. The same lie is often
repeated in the USA, about Trump 'dividing' the voters.
What Trump did over there and the referendum did over here was to
make manifest the existing divisions.
Neither event *caused* the respective division, they had been there
for years or decades, as must be obvious after a moment's thought.
I don't recall exactly when I repented of my 'stay in' vote in 1975,
but it was certainly a couple of decades before the second referendum.
Yes, 'Brexit' did not make people into rancid, frightened racists. It
just legitimised their beliefs and gave them the courage to go out on
the street and start beating up 'darkies'.
It's awful out there. I thought I was in the middle of The Purge for a
moment. Fortunately, the colour of my skin and a few hastily uttered
dog-whistles about 'sovereignty' assured my safety and I was allowed to
pass.
I am gratified that my efforts are being rewarded.
Post by Incubus
It did make for some quite gruesome trophies, however.
It's very difficult - if not impossible - to perceive 'privilege' from
the inside. And by the same token, it's difficult - if not impossible -
to see prejudice if you're not the victim. Live as a secular Jew in
Europe, and you could be forgiven for thinking that anti-Semitism was
just an overactive imagination. Put on a kippa, however, or wear some
other sign of Jewishness, and that belief vanishes.
I won't dispute that. However, as a white man, I have experienced a lot
of prejudice from black and Moslem neighbourhoods that the Left denies
occurs or, where it is acknowledged, is either excused or is not
perceived as racism because apparently I have all the power and privilege
in the wider context.
I don't excuse it.
You know what, though? When I think of what was done to black people by
white people over the centuries - I'm surprised they don't _all_ hate us.
If that is the case then perhaps segregation would be the safest option for all
of us!
MM
2018-08-02 16:35:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 11:46:58 -0000 (UTC), Incubus
Post by Incubus
If that is the case then perhaps segregation would be the safest option for all
of us!
Omigod! You're calling for apartheid now?

MM
The Todal
2018-08-02 18:48:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by MM
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 11:46:58 -0000 (UTC), Incubus
Post by Incubus
If that is the case then perhaps segregation would be the safest option for all
of us!
Omigod! You're calling for apartheid now?
I'm sure he isn't. He wants a safe space of his own, where he won't feel
under threat from ordinary people. But with NHS and local authority
cuts, I doubt if that will be available.
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
2018-08-03 17:39:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Incubus
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
You know what, though? When I think of what was done to black people by
white people over the centuries - I'm surprised they don't _all_ hate us.
If that is the case then perhaps segregation would be the safest option
for all of us!
I'd be more tempted to suggest destruction of white people, but why should
I - you're doing a great job of that all on your own [1].

Y.

[1] no, I am not 'non-white'
--
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
'If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human
face - forever'
(George Orwell (1903 - 1950))
<http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/>
The Todal
2018-08-02 12:53:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Incubus
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Incubus
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Joe
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:51:49 +0100
Did no one think to ask later what possessed him to divide the
country from top to bottom?
I believe !6 million remainers deserve to hear it from the former
Prime Minister, to hear him admit that he got the whole thing wrong
and for the divisions in the country he caused he is heartily sorry.
This is how the big lies get propagated. The same lie is often
repeated in the USA, about Trump 'dividing' the voters.
What Trump did over there and the referendum did over here was to
make manifest the existing divisions.
Neither event *caused* the respective division, they had been there
for years or decades, as must be obvious after a moment's thought.
I don't recall exactly when I repented of my 'stay in' vote in 1975,
but it was certainly a couple of decades before the second referendum.
Yes, 'Brexit' did not make people into rancid, frightened racists. It
just legitimised their beliefs and gave them the courage to go out on
the street and start beating up 'darkies'.
It's awful out there. I thought I was in the middle of The Purge for a
moment. Fortunately, the colour of my skin and a few hastily uttered
dog-whistles about 'sovereignty' assured my safety and I was allowed to
pass.
I am gratified that my efforts are being rewarded.
Post by Incubus
It did make for some quite gruesome trophies, however.
It's very difficult - if not impossible - to perceive 'privilege' from
the inside. And by the same token, it's difficult - if not impossible -
to see prejudice if you're not the victim. Live as a secular Jew in
Europe, and you could be forgiven for thinking that anti-Semitism was
just an overactive imagination. Put on a kippa, however, or wear some
other sign of Jewishness, and that belief vanishes.
I won't dispute that. However, as a white man, I have experienced a lot
of prejudice from black and Moslem neighbourhoods that the Left denies
occurs or, where it is acknowledged, is either excused or is not
perceived as racism because apparently I have all the power and privilege
in the wider context.
I don't excuse it.
You know what, though? When I think of what was done to black people by
white people over the centuries - I'm surprised they don't _all_ hate us.
Y.
In the USA, black lives still don't seem to matter. As a black person
you're still much more likely to be shot by a trigger-happy police
officer than if you were white.

When people talk about "experiencing a lot of prejudice" it would help
if they provided specifics. Experiencing prejudice from a work colleague
is rather different from experiencing prejudice from a random stranger
in the street who seems to have a hostile stare. And prejudice from an
entire neighbourhood? That seems far-fetched.
Incubus
2018-08-02 13:09:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Todal
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Incubus
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Incubus
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Joe
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:51:49 +0100
Did no one think to ask later what possessed him to divide the
country from top to bottom?
I believe !6 million remainers deserve to hear it from the former
Prime Minister, to hear him admit that he got the whole thing wrong
and for the divisions in the country he caused he is heartily sorry.
This is how the big lies get propagated. The same lie is often
repeated in the USA, about Trump 'dividing' the voters.
What Trump did over there and the referendum did over here was to
make manifest the existing divisions.
Neither event *caused* the respective division, they had been there
for years or decades, as must be obvious after a moment's thought.
I don't recall exactly when I repented of my 'stay in' vote in 1975,
but it was certainly a couple of decades before the second referendum.
Yes, 'Brexit' did not make people into rancid, frightened racists. It
just legitimised their beliefs and gave them the courage to go out on
the street and start beating up 'darkies'.
It's awful out there. I thought I was in the middle of The Purge for a
moment. Fortunately, the colour of my skin and a few hastily uttered
dog-whistles about 'sovereignty' assured my safety and I was allowed to
pass.
I am gratified that my efforts are being rewarded.
Post by Incubus
It did make for some quite gruesome trophies, however.
It's very difficult - if not impossible - to perceive 'privilege' from
the inside. And by the same token, it's difficult - if not impossible -
to see prejudice if you're not the victim. Live as a secular Jew in
Europe, and you could be forgiven for thinking that anti-Semitism was
just an overactive imagination. Put on a kippa, however, or wear some
other sign of Jewishness, and that belief vanishes.
I won't dispute that. However, as a white man, I have experienced a lot
of prejudice from black and Moslem neighbourhoods that the Left denies
occurs or, where it is acknowledged, is either excused or is not
perceived as racism because apparently I have all the power and privilege
in the wider context.
I don't excuse it.
You know what, though? When I think of what was done to black people by
white people over the centuries - I'm surprised they don't _all_ hate us.
Y.
In the USA, black lives still don't seem to matter. As a black person
you're still much more likely to be shot by a trigger-happy police
officer than if you were white.
When people talk about "experiencing a lot of prejudice" it would help
if they provided specifics. Experiencing prejudice from a work colleague
is rather different from experiencing prejudice from a random stranger
in the street who seems to have a hostile stare. And prejudice from an
entire neighbourhood? That seems far-fetched.
Alas poor Twaddle for he is still so sore from the last time he experienced
humiliation at my hands that he feels obliged to question my experiences and
twist my words around ('entire neighbourhood').

Still, it's a welcome change from defending paedophiles.
The Todal
2018-08-02 15:03:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Incubus
Post by The Todal
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Incubus
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Incubus
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Joe
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:51:49 +0100
Did no one think to ask later what possessed him to divide the
country from top to bottom?
I believe !6 million remainers deserve to hear it from the former
Prime Minister, to hear him admit that he got the whole thing wrong
and for the divisions in the country he caused he is heartily sorry.
This is how the big lies get propagated. The same lie is often
repeated in the USA, about Trump 'dividing' the voters.
What Trump did over there and the referendum did over here was to
make manifest the existing divisions.
Neither event *caused* the respective division, they had been there
for years or decades, as must be obvious after a moment's thought.
I don't recall exactly when I repented of my 'stay in' vote in 1975,
but it was certainly a couple of decades before the second referendum.
Yes, 'Brexit' did not make people into rancid, frightened racists. It
just legitimised their beliefs and gave them the courage to go out on
the street and start beating up 'darkies'.
It's awful out there. I thought I was in the middle of The Purge for a
moment. Fortunately, the colour of my skin and a few hastily uttered
dog-whistles about 'sovereignty' assured my safety and I was allowed to
pass.
I am gratified that my efforts are being rewarded.
Post by Incubus
It did make for some quite gruesome trophies, however.
It's very difficult - if not impossible - to perceive 'privilege' from
the inside. And by the same token, it's difficult - if not impossible -
to see prejudice if you're not the victim. Live as a secular Jew in
Europe, and you could be forgiven for thinking that anti-Semitism was
just an overactive imagination. Put on a kippa, however, or wear some
other sign of Jewishness, and that belief vanishes.
I won't dispute that. However, as a white man, I have experienced a lot
of prejudice from black and Moslem neighbourhoods that the Left denies
occurs or, where it is acknowledged, is either excused or is not
perceived as racism because apparently I have all the power and privilege
in the wider context.
I don't excuse it.
You know what, though? When I think of what was done to black people by
white people over the centuries - I'm surprised they don't _all_ hate us.
Y.
In the USA, black lives still don't seem to matter. As a black person
you're still much more likely to be shot by a trigger-happy police
officer than if you were white.
When people talk about "experiencing a lot of prejudice" it would help
if they provided specifics. Experiencing prejudice from a work colleague
is rather different from experiencing prejudice from a random stranger
in the street who seems to have a hostile stare. And prejudice from an
entire neighbourhood? That seems far-fetched.
Alas poor Twaddle for he is still so sore from the last time he experienced
humiliation at my hands that he feels obliged to question my experiences and
twist my words around ('entire neighbourhood').
Still, it's a welcome change from defending paedophiles.
Well, I bet you do have fantasies about inflicting humiliation on
people. Probably stems from your public school education and the regular
floggings you had to endure. Maybe you had to bend over for Jacob Rees Mogg.

I don't think you've experienced any prejudice from black and Moslem
neighbourhoods. Your neighbours judge you on how you behave. We can all
see what sort of person you are.
Incubus
2018-08-02 15:39:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Todal
Post by Incubus
Post by The Todal
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Incubus
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Incubus
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Joe
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:51:49 +0100
Did no one think to ask later what possessed him to divide the
country from top to bottom?
I believe !6 million remainers deserve to hear it from the former
Prime Minister, to hear him admit that he got the whole thing wrong
and for the divisions in the country he caused he is heartily sorry.
This is how the big lies get propagated. The same lie is often
repeated in the USA, about Trump 'dividing' the voters.
What Trump did over there and the referendum did over here was to
make manifest the existing divisions.
Neither event *caused* the respective division, they had been there
for years or decades, as must be obvious after a moment's thought.
I don't recall exactly when I repented of my 'stay in' vote in 1975,
but it was certainly a couple of decades before the second referendum.
Yes, 'Brexit' did not make people into rancid, frightened racists. It
just legitimised their beliefs and gave them the courage to go out on
the street and start beating up 'darkies'.
It's awful out there. I thought I was in the middle of The Purge for a
moment. Fortunately, the colour of my skin and a few hastily uttered
dog-whistles about 'sovereignty' assured my safety and I was allowed to
pass.
I am gratified that my efforts are being rewarded.
Post by Incubus
It did make for some quite gruesome trophies, however.
It's very difficult - if not impossible - to perceive 'privilege' from
the inside. And by the same token, it's difficult - if not impossible -
to see prejudice if you're not the victim. Live as a secular Jew in
Europe, and you could be forgiven for thinking that anti-Semitism was
just an overactive imagination. Put on a kippa, however, or wear some
other sign of Jewishness, and that belief vanishes.
I won't dispute that. However, as a white man, I have experienced a lot
of prejudice from black and Moslem neighbourhoods that the Left denies
occurs or, where it is acknowledged, is either excused or is not
perceived as racism because apparently I have all the power and privilege
in the wider context.
I don't excuse it.
You know what, though? When I think of what was done to black people by
white people over the centuries - I'm surprised they don't _all_ hate us.
Y.
In the USA, black lives still don't seem to matter. As a black person
you're still much more likely to be shot by a trigger-happy police
officer than if you were white.
When people talk about "experiencing a lot of prejudice" it would help
if they provided specifics. Experiencing prejudice from a work colleague
is rather different from experiencing prejudice from a random stranger
in the street who seems to have a hostile stare. And prejudice from an
entire neighbourhood? That seems far-fetched.
Alas poor Twaddle for he is still so sore from the last time he experienced
humiliation at my hands that he feels obliged to question my experiences and
twist my words around ('entire neighbourhood').
Still, it's a welcome change from defending paedophiles.
Well, I bet you do have fantasies about inflicting humiliation on
people.
Perhaps I misspoke; it seems precipitous to refer to your having been
humiliated at my hands when it seems entirely self-inflicted on your part.
Post by The Todal
Probably stems from your public school education and the regular
floggings you had to endure. Maybe you had to bend over for Jacob Rees Mogg.
I am sure such phantasies will stay with you long after this thread has died.
Post by The Todal
I don't think you've experienced any prejudice from black and Moslem
neighbourhoods.
All but the first three words in that sentence are entirely superflous.
Post by The Todal
Your neighbours judge you on how you behave.
I did not say that they were my neighbours. For someone who likes to throw
around accusations of poor reading comprehension, you do like to make something
of a fool of yourself, and more foolish yet for suggesting that you might have
any insight into their motives.
Post by The Todal
We can all
see what sort of person you are.
What you see is text on a newsgroup and what awful resentment it causes when
you fail to win any argument that you feel you must malign those with whom you
disagree.
MM
2018-08-02 16:29:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 11:41:12 +0100, Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
You know what, though? When I think of what was done to black people by
white people over the centuries - I'm surprised they don't _all_ hate us.
Indeed.

MM
MM
2018-08-02 16:28:54 UTC
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Raw Message
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 10:37:12 -0000 (UTC), Incubus
Post by Incubus
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Incubus
Post by Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
Post by Joe
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:51:49 +0100
Did no one think to ask later what possessed him to divide the country
from top to bottom?
I believe !6 million remainers deserve to hear it from the former
Prime Minister, to hear him admit that he got the whole thing wrong
and for the divisions in the country he caused he is heartily sorry.
This is how the big lies get propagated. The same lie is often repeated
in the USA, about Trump 'dividing' the voters.
What Trump did over there and the referendum did over here was to make
manifest the existing divisions.
Neither event *caused* the respective division, they had been there for
years or decades, as must be obvious after a moment's thought.
I don't recall exactly when I repented of my 'stay in' vote in 1975,
but it was certainly a couple of decades before the second referendum.
Yes, 'Brexit' did not make people into rancid, frightened racists. It
just legitimised their beliefs and gave them the courage to go out on
the street and start beating up 'darkies'.
It's awful out there. I thought I was in the middle of The Purge for a
moment. Fortunately, the colour of my skin and a few hastily uttered
dog-whistles about 'sovereignty' assured my safety and I was allowed to
pass.
I am gratified that my efforts are being rewarded.
Post by Incubus
It did make for some quite gruesome trophies, however.
It's very difficult - if not impossible - to perceive 'privilege' from the
inside. And by the same token, it's difficult - if not impossible - to see
prejudice if you're not the victim. Live as a secular Jew in Europe, and
you could be forgiven for thinking that anti-Semitism was just an
overactive imagination. Put on a kippa, however, or wear some other sign
of Jewishness, and that belief vanishes.
I won't dispute that. However, as a white man, I have experienced a lot of
prejudice from black and Moslem neighbourhoods that the Left denies occurs or,
where it is acknowledged, is either excused or is not perceived as racism
because apparently I have all the power and privilege in the wider context.
But white people DO have all the power and privilege in the wider
context!

MM
testperson
2018-07-27 16:12:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
!Not enough has been made of the reason why Cameron called the
!referendum. We know why he did. It was to keep Tory backbenchers on
!side and to stop voters deserting to Ukip. So it was NOT about
!offering the people of this country a choice at all, but about Cameron
!and the Tories retaining power.
Tories are finished. There wont be any Tory government for the next 20 years

Tories lied to british people and still doing so throuh their teeth.

Tories have already put Britain worse situation than in EU

Now they ll be so called leave , but pay 50 billions a year to buy cheat
German cars made in Slovenia or Spain or Poland , eat Frenc aubergines and
suck italian canned tomatoes.

Children of Brits will pay the debt of their parents created by voting
remain in Europe , by believeing Theresa May as a person who ll take Britain
out of Europe.

Yes she will take Uk out of Europe and sell the land and its people to
gerries and frogs. Even the Greeks will get their marbles back ....
Norman Wells
2018-07-27 16:23:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by testperson
!Not enough has been made of the reason why Cameron called the
!referendum. We know why he did. It was to keep Tory backbenchers on
!side and to stop voters deserting to Ukip. So it was NOT about
!offering the people of this country a choice at all, but about Cameron
!and the Tories retaining power.
Tories are finished. There wont be any Tory government for the next 20 years
Tories lied to british people and still doing so throuh their teeth.
Tories have already put Britain worse situation than in EU
Now they ll be so called leave , but pay 50 billions a year to buy cheat
German cars made in Slovenia or Spain or Poland , eat Frenc aubergines and
suck italian canned tomatoes.
Children of Brits will pay the debt of their parents created by voting
remain in Europe , by believeing Theresa May as a person who ll take Britain
out of Europe.
Yes she will take Uk out of Europe and sell the land and its people to
gerries and frogs. Even the Greeks will get their marbles back ....
Good grief! Have the school hoidays started so soon?
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