Discussion:
Jeremy 'unt changes the rules.
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Judith
2017-01-09 17:52:12 UTC
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In a statement to MPs, he said the four-hour A&E target was only supposed to
apply to genuine emergencies.

Well there we go : that will improve the figures.

How about a triage system where they get rid of the non-emergencies in a matter
of minutes. Or even better - improve GP services so that people don't have to
wait 4 or 5 days for an appointment. That would make a fantastic difference to
A&E.

I know of people who have literally had a GP appointment a week later than when
the appointment was made.


NHS : safe in Tory hands.

My arse.
The Todal
2017-01-09 18:30:23 UTC
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Post by Judith
In a statement to MPs, he said the four-hour A&E target was only supposed to
apply to genuine emergencies.
Well there we go : that will improve the figures.
How about a triage system where they get rid of the non-emergencies in a matter
of minutes. Or even better - improve GP services so that people don't have to
wait 4 or 5 days for an appointment. That would make a fantastic difference to
A&E.
I know of people who have literally had a GP appointment a week later than when
the appointment was made.
NHS : safe in Tory hands.
My arse.
"Jeremy Hunt urged to public to stay away from A&E units so that the
most urgent cases can get the care they need".

So there's the public, and then there's urgent cases.

I don't think he's defined urgent. Is a broken arm urgent? A bleeding
scalp? Acute abdominal pain for which no doctor has yet given a
diagnosis? Urinary tract infections? Rapid heartbeat?
tim...
2017-01-09 19:46:52 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Judith
In a statement to MPs, he said the four-hour A&E target was only supposed to
apply to genuine emergencies.
Well there we go : that will improve the figures.
How about a triage system where they get rid of the non-emergencies in a matter
of minutes. Or even better - improve GP services so that people don't have to
wait 4 or 5 days for an appointment. That would make a fantastic difference to
A&E.
I know of people who have literally had a GP appointment a week later than when
the appointment was made.
NHS : safe in Tory hands.
My arse.
"Jeremy Hunt urged to public to stay away from A&E units so that the most
urgent cases can get the care they need".
So there's the public, and then there's urgent cases.
I don't think he's defined urgent. Is a broken arm urgent? A bleeding
scalp? Acute abdominal pain for which no doctor has yet given a diagnosis?
Urinary tract infections? Rapid heartbeat?
I think you have deliberately come up with a list of items, all of which
might reasonably be considered as valid visits to A&E.

I'm sure that if you asked the people on the front line, they could come up
with dozens of spurious attendances that do not.

Have you seen 24 hours in A&E?

tim
The Todal
2017-01-09 23:35:55 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by The Todal
Post by Judith
In a statement to MPs, he said the four-hour A&E target was only supposed to
apply to genuine emergencies.
Well there we go : that will improve the figures.
How about a triage system where they get rid of the non-emergencies in a matter
of minutes. Or even better - improve GP services so that people don't have to
wait 4 or 5 days for an appointment. That would make a fantastic difference to
A&E.
I know of people who have literally had a GP appointment a week later than when
the appointment was made.
NHS : safe in Tory hands.
My arse.
"Jeremy Hunt urged to public to stay away from A&E units so that the
most urgent cases can get the care they need".
So there's the public, and then there's urgent cases.
I don't think he's defined urgent. Is a broken arm urgent? A bleeding
scalp? Acute abdominal pain for which no doctor has yet given a
diagnosis? Urinary tract infections? Rapid heartbeat?
I think you have deliberately come up with a list of items, all of which
might reasonably be considered as valid visits to A&E.
I'm sure that if you asked the people on the front line, they could come
up with dozens of spurious attendances that do not.
Have you seen 24 hours in A&E?
Wrong question.

Has Jeremy Cunt seen 24 hours in A&E? Does he have any knowledge of
medicine and the way the NHS works? Is he or is he not the dimmest
fuckwit ever to hold the post of Secretary of State for Health, and was
he one of Theresa May's stupidest decisions?
tim...
2017-01-10 13:20:14 UTC
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Post by The Todal
Post by tim...
Post by The Todal
Post by Judith
In a statement to MPs, he said the four-hour A&E target was only supposed to
apply to genuine emergencies.
Well there we go : that will improve the figures.
How about a triage system where they get rid of the non-emergencies in a matter
of minutes. Or even better - improve GP services so that people don't have to
wait 4 or 5 days for an appointment. That would make a fantastic difference to
A&E.
I know of people who have literally had a GP appointment a week later than when
the appointment was made.
NHS : safe in Tory hands.
My arse.
"Jeremy Hunt urged to public to stay away from A&E units so that the
most urgent cases can get the care they need".
So there's the public, and then there's urgent cases.
I don't think he's defined urgent. Is a broken arm urgent? A bleeding
scalp? Acute abdominal pain for which no doctor has yet given a
diagnosis? Urinary tract infections? Rapid heartbeat?
I think you have deliberately come up with a list of items, all of which
might reasonably be considered as valid visits to A&E.
I'm sure that if you asked the people on the front line, they could come
up with dozens of spurious attendances that do not.
Have you seen 24 hours in A&E?
Wrong question.
Has Jeremy Cunt seen 24 hours in A&E?
I don't think he has to

All of the Health service employees are complaining that people are misusing
A&E

It seems perfectly reasonable to believe them
Post by The Todal
Does he have any knowledge of medicine
why would he need that?
Post by The Todal
and the way the NHS works?
One presumes so. It isn't difficult
Post by The Todal
Is he or is he not the dimmest fuckwit ever to hold the post of Secretary
of State for Health, and was he one of Theresa May's stupidest decisions?
I agree that he isn't the right person for the job and that his presentation
style is questionable

but on the substantive issue under discussion here, I think he does have a
valid point

tim
The Todal
2017-01-10 13:31:47 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by The Todal
Has Jeremy Cunt seen 24 hours in A&E?
I don't think he has to
I hope he's at least reading the newspapers. We face the worst crisis
for decades.
Post by tim...
All of the Health service employees are complaining that people are
misusing A&E
It seems perfectly reasonable to believe them
It's a very minor factor.
Post by tim...
Post by The Todal
Does he have any knowledge of medicine
why would he need that?
Because then he, and you, would have a better idea of what sort of
medical conditions justify visiting A&E.

On LBC this morning, the presenter gave the example of a patient who
hasn't had a bowel movement for a week, and instead of bothering A&E he
ought to use an over the counter laxative.

Can you see any flaw in that proposition?
Post by tim...
Post by The Todal
and the way the NHS works?
One presumes so. It isn't difficult
It isn't ever difficult for very ignorant people to tell other people
how to do their jobs. Nowadays there are plenty of ignorant people who
want to tell our civil servants and diplomatic staff to get their finger
out and negotiate Brexit. Very easy to say.
Post by tim...
Post by The Todal
Is he or is he not the dimmest fuckwit ever to hold the post of
Secretary of State for Health, and was he one of Theresa May's
stupidest decisions?
I agree that he isn't the right person for the job and that his
presentation style is questionable
but on the substantive issue under discussion here, I think he does have
a valid point
He doesn't have a valid point.

At A&E there is a triage system. A triage nurse will asssess which
people need emergency care and which should be encouraged to see their
GP or consult a pharmacist. Many of them may be told that they can wait
if they like but it might take six or more hours to be seen.

So that disposes of Jeremy Cunt's point. If the triage nurse isn't sure
if it is urgent and decides to err on the side of caution, then why
expect the patient to be any better informed? If it turns out to be an
inimportant medical condition that has wasted A&E time, that isn't the
patient's fault or the fault of the triage nurse. It's because medicine
isn't always straightforward.
Handsome Jack
2017-01-10 18:22:03 UTC
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Post by The Todal
Post by tim...
Post by The Todal
Has Jeremy Cunt seen 24 hours in A&E?
I don't think he has to
I hope he's at least reading the newspapers. We face the worst crisis
for decades.
The NHS unions say that every winter without fail.
Post by The Todal
Post by tim...
All of the Health service employees are complaining that people are
misusing A&E
It seems perfectly reasonable to believe them
It's a very minor factor.
I'm not wholly convinced either. But I'm not taking your word for it.
--
Jack
pamela
2017-01-10 20:05:44 UTC
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Post by The Todal
Post by tim...
Post by The Todal
Post by Judith
In a statement to MPs, he said the four-hour A&E target was
only supposed to
apply to genuine emergencies.
Well there we go : that will improve the figures.
How about a triage system where they get rid of the
non-emergencies in a matter
of minutes. Or even better - improve GP services so that
people don't have to
wait 4 or 5 days for an appointment. That would make a
fantastic difference to
A&E.
I know of people who have literally had a GP appointment a
week later than when
the appointment was made.
NHS : safe in Tory hands.
My arse.
"Jeremy Hunt urged to public to stay away from A&E units so
that the most urgent cases can get the care they need".
So there's the public, and then there's urgent cases.
I don't think he's defined urgent. Is a broken arm urgent? A
bleeding scalp? Acute abdominal pain for which no doctor has
yet given a diagnosis? Urinary tract infections? Rapid
heartbeat?
I think you have deliberately come up with a list of items, all
of which might reasonably be considered as valid visits to A&E.
I'm sure that if you asked the people on the front line, they
could come up with dozens of spurious attendances that do not.
Have you seen 24 hours in A&E?
Wrong question.
Has Jeremy Cunt seen 24 hours in A&E? Does he have any
knowledge of medicine and the way the NHS works? Is he or is he
not the dimmest fuckwit ever to hold the post of Secretary of
State for Health, and was he one of Theresa May's stupidest
decisions?
I haven't seen 24 Hours In A&E but I suspect it shows patients
with serious brain injury going straight into the operating
theatre interspersed with vignettes of drunken Irishmen who
dislocated their own thumbs, then a young girl with a teddy bear
whose nose has fallen off who wants it stitching back on by the
nice doctors.

Is that about it?
John
2017-01-09 22:31:46 UTC
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"Jeremy Hunt urged to public to stay away from A&E units so that the most
urgent cases can get the care they need".
So there's the public, and then there's urgent cases.
I don't think he's defined urgent. Is a broken arm urgent? A bleeding
scalp? Acute abdominal pain for which no doctor has yet given a diagnosis?
Urinary tract infections? Rapid heartbeat?
I'm lucky I can usually get a GP appointment within 3-4 days, but if I have
a health problem which needs attention before I can access my GP what does
Hunt expect?

The man's a fool, and is representative of a government which knows the cost
of everything, but the value of nothing.

Oh, and about his claims demanding a 24 hour NHS - my wife has just got back
from a CT scan timed for 7pm tonight.

John.
Handsome Jack
2017-01-10 09:20:26 UTC
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Post by John
"Jeremy Hunt urged to public to stay away from A&E units so that the most
urgent cases can get the care they need".
So there's the public, and then there's urgent cases.
I don't think he's defined urgent. Is a broken arm urgent? A bleeding
scalp? Acute abdominal pain for which no doctor has yet given a diagnosis?
Urinary tract infections? Rapid heartbeat?
I'm lucky I can usually get a GP appointment within 3-4 days, but if I have
a health problem which needs attention before I can access my GP what does
Hunt expect?
If it's serious enough to need treatment, he expects you to go to A&E,
and neither he nor anyone else has ever said otherwise, except fuckwits
or political opponents who are trying to misrepresent his position.
Post by John
The man's a fool, and is representative of a government which knows the cost
of everything, but the value of nothing.
But you're a fat and ugly liar, and you smell.

Now how far does that take the debate?
--
Jack
The Todal
2017-01-10 10:21:34 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by John
"Jeremy Hunt urged to public to stay away from A&E units so that the most
urgent cases can get the care they need".
So there's the public, and then there's urgent cases.
I don't think he's defined urgent. Is a broken arm urgent? A bleeding
scalp? Acute abdominal pain for which no doctor has yet given a diagnosis?
Urinary tract infections? Rapid heartbeat?
I'm lucky I can usually get a GP appointment within 3-4 days, but if I have
a health problem which needs attention before I can access my GP what does
Hunt expect?
If it's serious enough to need treatment, he expects you to go to A&E,
and neither he nor anyone else has ever said otherwise, except fuckwits
or political opponents who are trying to misrepresent his position.
No, he expects the public to know whether or not their condition is
serious enough to require an A&E visit.

And he's pretending that everything is fine, it's just that some
irresponsible members of the public have temporarily overcrowded the
A&Es because of their own stupidity. No doctor has told him that. It's
his own fuckwitted theory.

Back in the real world....

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/one-in-four-a-e-wards-is-unsafe-say-doctors-sgf33c79m

More than a quarter of accident and emergency units are dangerously
overcrowded after the busiest day on record for the NHS, senior doctors
have warned.

Taj Hassan, president of the Royal College of Emergency Medicine, said
that 25 to 30 per cent of A&E departments were dealing with fewer than
75 per cent of patients within four hours — the “magic mark” for safety.

“When it gets below 75 per cent it becomes very overcrowded and that is
when it becomes unsafe. There are delays in assessment of patients,
there are delays in pain relief, there are delays in antibiotics being
given, and basic patient dignity is compromised,” he told The Times.

“All the measures of system performance clearly indicate that we are in
the worst level of system performance for over a decade.”


Social care
What is the problem? Some 400,000 fewer older patients getting help from
councils means more end up in hospital. Norovirus outbreaks are running
higher than usual and older people often have a stubborn viral cough.

What are the effects? More patients arriving at A&E need a bed. Mid
Essex hospital said 41 per cent of patients needed admission at the
weekend, twice the normal rate.

What is the solution? Relatives and care homes need someone to call if
older people become unwell. Some areas are promising to develop 24/7
teams that will send a paramedic to older patients’ homes to avoid a
hospital visit.
tim...
2017-01-10 13:16:00 UTC
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Post by The Todal
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by John
"Jeremy Hunt urged to public to stay away from A&E units so that the most
urgent cases can get the care they need".
So there's the public, and then there's urgent cases.
I don't think he's defined urgent. Is a broken arm urgent? A bleeding
scalp? Acute abdominal pain for which no doctor has yet given a diagnosis?
Urinary tract infections? Rapid heartbeat?
I'm lucky I can usually get a GP appointment within 3-4 days, but if I have
a health problem which needs attention before I can access my GP what does
Hunt expect?
If it's serious enough to need treatment, he expects you to go to A&E,
and neither he nor anyone else has ever said otherwise, except fuckwits
or political opponents who are trying to misrepresent his position.
No, he expects the public to know whether or not their condition is
serious enough to require an A&E visit.
The point is that a lot of people who turn up at A&E know that what they
have isn't serious enough for A&E because they have waited 5 days before
deciding to go

tim
The Todal
2017-01-10 13:33:09 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by The Todal
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by John
"Jeremy Hunt urged to public to stay away from A&E units so that the most
urgent cases can get the care they need".
So there's the public, and then there's urgent cases.
I don't think he's defined urgent. Is a broken arm urgent? A bleeding
scalp? Acute abdominal pain for which no doctor has yet given a diagnosis?
Urinary tract infections? Rapid heartbeat?
I'm lucky I can usually get a GP appointment within 3-4 days, but if I have
a health problem which needs attention before I can access my GP what does
Hunt expect?
If it's serious enough to need treatment, he expects you to go to A&E,
and neither he nor anyone else has ever said otherwise, except fuckwits
or political opponents who are trying to misrepresent his position.
No, he expects the public to know whether or not their condition is
serious enough to require an A&E visit.
The point is that a lot of people who turn up at A&E know that what they
have isn't serious enough for A&E because they have waited 5 days before
deciding to go
Oh, right. Five days of a headache that hasn't gone away. Serious or
not, Dr Tim? What investigations do you recommend, Dr Tim? Five days of
bleeding in bowel movements. Five days of chest pain. Serious or not,
Dr Tim?
Judith
2017-01-11 11:05:30 UTC
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On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 13:16:00 -0000, "tim..." <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

<snip>
Post by tim...
The point is that a lot of people who turn up at A&E know that what they
have isn't serious enough for A&E because they have waited 5 days before
deciding to go
And because they can't get a doctor's GP appointment for 5 days.

The average waiting time for GP appointment has increased by 30% in the last
year.

In the same time the number of people attending A&E has gone up by 6%.

And of course the number of beds in NHS hospitals has fallen.


I really can't understand why there is this current problem.

NHS safe in Tory hands : my arse.
burfordTjustice
2017-01-10 14:59:37 UTC
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On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 10:21:34 +0000
Post by The Todal
More than a quarter of accident and emergency units are dangerously
overcrowded after the busiest day on record for the NHS, senior
doctors have warned.
Nonsense....The government is never such.
p***@gmail.com
2017-01-11 00:58:07 UTC
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Post by The Todal
What is the solution? Relatives and care homes need someone to call if
older people become unwell. Some areas are promising to develop 24/7
teams that will send a paramedic to older patients’ homes to avoid a
hospital visit.
We need to recognise care is rapidly disappearing. In the old days of
community people were cared for by their community. We had old women
who knew about medication and plants which were beneficial. Women with
children stayed at home to look after them and the community took care
of its own. We are rapidly losing the NHS so it is time to think how
we coped before the NHS.
Judith
2017-01-11 11:11:24 UTC
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Post by p***@gmail.com
We are rapidly losing the NHS so it is time to think how
we coped before the NHS.
Guess what is this list of countries?

Norway
Greece
Portugal
New Zealand
Austria
Canada
Belgium
Japan
Denmark
France
Germany
Sweden
Switzerland
Netherlands
USA

It is those countries who spend more as a percentage of their GDP on healthcare
than we do.

NHS : safe in Tory hands : my arse.

tim...
2017-01-10 13:14:08 UTC
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Post by John
"Jeremy Hunt urged to public to stay away from A&E units so that the most
urgent cases can get the care they need".
So there's the public, and then there's urgent cases.
I don't think he's defined urgent. Is a broken arm urgent? A bleeding
scalp? Acute abdominal pain for which no doctor has yet given a
diagnosis? Urinary tract infections? Rapid heartbeat?
I'm lucky I can usually get a GP appointment within 3-4 days, but if I
have a health problem which needs attention before I can access my GP what
does Hunt expect?
The man's a fool, and is representative of a government which knows the
cost of everything, but the value of nothing.
Oh, and about his claims demanding a 24 hour NHS - my wife has just got
back from a CT scan timed for 7pm tonight.
At about 3 million pounds a time scanners are always used more intensively
that other hospital facilities

My local one has appointments from 8-8 and on Saturdays.

though some of the slots are left free for referrals of inpatients

other specialisations that I see, I get a choice of Tuesday 1:30 to 3:30 or
Thursday 9:30 to 11:30 (or whatever)

tim
Paul Pot
2017-01-09 19:32:32 UTC
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Post by Judith
In a statement to MPs, he said the four-hour A&E target was only
supposed to apply to genuine emergencies.
Well there we go : that will improve the figures.
How about a triage system where they get rid of the non-emergencies
in a matter of minutes. Or even better - improve GP services so that
people don't have to wait 4 or 5 days for an appointment. That would
make a fantastic difference to A&E.
I know of people who have literally had a GP appointment a week later
than when the appointment was made.
NHS : safe in Tory hands.
My arse.


True James.
--
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Altroy1
2017-01-09 22:27:22 UTC
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Post by Judith
In a statement to MPs, he said the four-hour A&E target was only supposed to
apply to genuine emergencies.
The word "genuine" is so waffly and subjective it can carry the whiff of
innuendo but allowing the speaker later to deny meaning anything untoward.

Perhaps the learned Health Minister could consider being a bit more
specific about which type of emergencies are subject to targets and
which aren't.
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