A Straw Poll

[Omega]

Over the last couple of weeks I have been especially intrigued as to
what would really happen if we were to have a 'second' Brexit Referendum
as some are irrationally demanding.

I can't imagine what protocol would allow such a vote while we are so
far into our notice to leave but let's simply pretend for a moment, it
is about to happen.

Some here have decided, the older Brexiters will by now have left the
planet so their votes won't be available and especially with younger
people entering the voting arena, inclined to vote Remain, some argue,
then a win for the Remainers would be foregone! Worth a thought, if
only to dispel such myth.

When the Referendum took place I was astonished to discover some people
I know, simply didn't bother to vote, not because they were apolitical
but many overcome by the public poll after poll, decided it wasn't worth
going to the polling booth as it was overwhelmingly certain, Remain
would win. I can't claim which way *all* these lost votes would have
gone had they voted but many, I knew, appeared to be swayed to Leaving?
Does anyone else have a view on this?

Are we so fickle we will vote only if we are on the winning side? Is
this how snowflakes vote?

As a Brexiter and voting in a 'second' Referendum, I would vote to leave
with more determination but I would be very interested to hear any
member of our group who would honestly switch his vote in the new
Referendum?

Do we have any? Would they care to say why?

All hypothetical but for the record, in such an event I believe
Brexiters would have an increased vote now that the fear campaign has
been seen for what it was and the prospect for a truly bright future is
well in sight!

Perhaps to the chagrin of the snowflakes we haven't all disappeared in
an end of the world cataclysm, 'because of Brexit'.

omega

[R. Mark Clayton]

Post by Omega
Over the last couple of weeks I have been especially intrigued as to
what would really happen if we were to have a 'second' Brexit Referendum
as some are irrationally demanding.
I can't imagine what protocol would allow such a vote while we are so
far into our notice to leave but let's simply pretend for a moment, it
is about to happen.
Some here have decided, the older Brexiters will by now have left the
planet so their votes won't be available and especially with younger
people entering the voting arena, inclined to vote Remain, some argue,
then a win for the Remainers would be foregone! Worth a thought, if
only to dispel such myth.
When the Referendum took place I was astonished to discover some people
I know, simply didn't bother to vote, not because they were apolitical
but many overcome by the public poll after poll, decided it wasn't worth
going to the polling booth as it was overwhelmingly certain, Remain
would win. I can't claim which way *all* these lost votes would have
gone had they voted but many, I knew, appeared to be swayed to Leaving?
Does anyone else have a view on this?
Are we so fickle we will vote only if we are on the winning side? Is
this how snowflakes vote?
As a Brexiter and voting in a 'second' Referendum, I would vote to leave
with more determination but I would be very interested to hear any
member of our group who would honestly switch his vote in the new
Referendum?
Do we have any? Would they care to say why?
All hypothetical but for the record, in such an event I believe
Brexiters would have an increased vote now that the fear campaign has
been seen for what it was and the prospect for a truly bright future is
well in sight!
Perhaps to the chagrin of the snowflakes we haven't all disappeared in
an end of the world cataclysm, 'because of Brexit'.
omega

We already had the second referendum on Europe, so best of three?

[Farmer Giles]

Post by Omega
Over the last couple of weeks I have been especially intrigued as to
what would really happen if we were to have a 'second' Brexit Referendum
as some are irrationally demanding.
I can't imagine what protocol would allow such a vote while we are so
far into our notice to leave but let's simply pretend for a moment, it
is about to happen.
Some here have decided, the older Brexiters will by now have left the
planet so their votes won't be available and especially with younger
people entering the voting arena, inclined to vote Remain, some argue,
then a win for the Remainers would be foregone!  Worth a thought, if
only to dispel such myth.
When the Referendum took place I was astonished to discover some people
I know, simply didn't bother to vote, not because they were apolitical
but many overcome by the public poll after poll, decided it wasn't worth
going to the polling booth as it was overwhelmingly certain, Remain
would win.  I can't claim which way *all* these lost votes would have
gone had they voted but many, I knew, appeared to be swayed to Leaving?
Does anyone else have a view on this?
Are we so fickle we will vote only if we are on the winning side?  Is
this how snowflakes vote?
As a Brexiter and voting in a 'second' Referendum, I would vote to leave
with more determination but I would be very interested to hear any
member of our group who would honestly switch his vote in the new
Referendum?
Do we have any?  Would they care to say why?
All hypothetical but for the record, in such an event I believe
Brexiters would have an increased vote now that the fear campaign has
been seen for what it was and the prospect for a truly bright future is
well in sight!
Perhaps to the chagrin of the snowflakes we haven't all disappeared in
an end of the world cataclysm, 'because of Brexit'.
omega

And what if there was a close vote in favour of remain? Would we then
have to go for the best of three? I don't remember any calls for a
re-run of 1975, even when it emerged that Ted Heath and all the
newspapers had told us a pack of lies.

[abelard]

Post by Omega
Over the last couple of weeks I have been especially intrigued as to
what would really happen if we were to have a 'second' Brexit Referendum
as some are irrationally demanding.

it would undermine faith in democracy and government

Post by Omega
I can't imagine what protocol would allow such a vote while we are so
far into our notice to leave but let's simply pretend for a moment, it
is about to happen.
Some here have decided, the older Brexiters will by now have left the
planet so their votes won't be available and especially with younger
people entering the voting arena, inclined to vote Remain, some argue,
then a win for the Remainers would be foregone! Worth a thought, if
only to dispel such myth.
When the Referendum took place I was astonished to discover some people
I know, simply didn't bother to vote, not because they were apolitical
but many overcome by the public poll after poll, decided it wasn't worth
going to the polling booth as it was overwhelmingly certain, Remain
would win. I can't claim which way *all* these lost votes would have
gone had they voted but many, I knew, appeared to be swayed to Leaving?
Does anyone else have a view on this?
Are we so fickle we will vote only if we are on the winning side? Is
this how snowflakes vote?
As a Brexiter and voting in a 'second' Referendum, I would vote to leave
with more determination but I would be very interested to hear any
member of our group who would honestly switch his vote in the new
Referendum?
Do we have any? Would they care to say why?

i would switch to brexit because of my above comment

i've also become convinced that most remoaners are only interested
in money...a situation that is highly aggravated by the fact that
most of them (and their 'arguments') are founded in economic
illiteracy...

Post by Omega
All hypothetical but for the record, in such an event I believe
Brexiters would have an increased vote now that the fear campaign has
been seen for what it was and the prospect for a truly bright future is
well in sight!
Perhaps to the chagrin of the snowflakes we haven't all disappeared in
an end of the world cataclysm, 'because of Brexit'.

[tim...]

Post by abelard

Post by Omega
Over the last couple of weeks I have been especially intrigued as to
what would really happen if we were to have a 'second' Brexit Referendum
as some are irrationally demanding.

it would undermine faith in democracy and government

Post by Omega
I can't imagine what protocol would allow such a vote while we are so
far into our notice to leave but let's simply pretend for a moment, it
is about to happen.
Some here have decided, the older Brexiters will by now have left the
planet so their votes won't be available and especially with younger
people entering the voting arena, inclined to vote Remain, some argue,
then a win for the Remainers would be foregone! Worth a thought, if
only to dispel such myth.
When the Referendum took place I was astonished to discover some people
I know, simply didn't bother to vote, not because they were apolitical
but many overcome by the public poll after poll, decided it wasn't worth
going to the polling booth as it was overwhelmingly certain, Remain
would win. I can't claim which way *all* these lost votes would have
gone had they voted but many, I knew, appeared to be swayed to Leaving?
Does anyone else have a view on this?
Are we so fickle we will vote only if we are on the winning side? Is
this how snowflakes vote?
As a Brexiter and voting in a 'second' Referendum, I would vote to leave
with more determination but I would be very interested to hear any
member of our group who would honestly switch his vote in the new
Referendum?
Do we have any? Would they care to say why?

i would switch to brexit because of my above comment
i've also become convinced that most remoaners are only interested
in money.

It seems to me that most of them are only interested in it for the political
result it would give.

either because of some opportunity of personal patronage or party ideology

tim

[abelard]

Post by tim...

Post by abelard

Post by Omega
Over the last couple of weeks I have been especially intrigued as to
what would really happen if we were to have a 'second' Brexit Referendum
as some are irrationally demanding.

it would undermine faith in democracy and government

Post by Omega
I can't imagine what protocol would allow such a vote while we are so
far into our notice to leave but let's simply pretend for a moment, it
is about to happen.
Some here have decided, the older Brexiters will by now have left the
planet so their votes won't be available and especially with younger
people entering the voting arena, inclined to vote Remain, some argue,
then a win for the Remainers would be foregone! Worth a thought, if
only to dispel such myth.
When the Referendum took place I was astonished to discover some people
I know, simply didn't bother to vote, not because they were apolitical
but many overcome by the public poll after poll, decided it wasn't worth
going to the polling booth as it was overwhelmingly certain, Remain
would win. I can't claim which way *all* these lost votes would have
gone had they voted but many, I knew, appeared to be swayed to Leaving?
Does anyone else have a view on this?
Are we so fickle we will vote only if we are on the winning side? Is
this how snowflakes vote?
As a Brexiter and voting in a 'second' Referendum, I would vote to leave
with more determination but I would be very interested to hear any
member of our group who would honestly switch his vote in the new
Referendum?
Do we have any? Would they care to say why?

i would switch to brexit because of my above comment
i've also become convinced that most remoaners are only interested
in money.

It seems to me that most of them are only interested in it for the political
result it would give.

like free money? or what?

Post by tim...
either because of some opportunity of personal patronage or party ideology

[James Harris]

Post by Omega
Over the last couple of weeks I have been especially intrigued as to
what would really happen if we were to have a 'second' Brexit Referendum
as some are irrationally demanding.
I can't imagine what protocol would allow such a vote while we are so
far into our notice to leave but let's simply pretend for a moment, it
is about to happen.
Some here have decided, the older Brexiters will by now have left the
planet so their votes won't be available and especially with younger
people entering the voting arena, inclined to vote Remain, some argue,
then a win for the Remainers would be foregone! Worth a thought, if
only to dispel such myth.
When the Referendum took place I was astonished to discover some people
I know, simply didn't bother to vote, not because they were apolitical
but many overcome by the public poll after poll, decided it wasn't worth
going to the polling booth as it was overwhelmingly certain, Remain
would win. I can't claim which way *all* these lost votes would have
gone had they voted but many, I knew, appeared to be swayed to Leaving?
Does anyone else have a view on this?
Are we so fickle we will vote only if we are on the winning side? Is
this how snowflakes vote?
As a Brexiter and voting in a 'second' Referendum, I would vote to leave
with more determination but I would be very interested to hear any
member of our group who would honestly switch his vote in the new
Referendum?
Do we have any? Would they care to say why?
All hypothetical but for the record, in such an event I believe
Brexiters would have an increased vote now that the fear campaign has
been seen for what it was and the prospect for a truly bright future is
well in sight!
Perhaps to the chagrin of the snowflakes we haven't all disappeared in
an end of the world cataclysm, 'because of Brexit'.

I am not as confident as you that Leave would win a second time. I say
that for many reasons.

Primarily, arranging a referendum will alter the outcome of
negotiations. If the EU knows we are to choose between the deal and
Remain they will be free to offer us a bad deal.

While you make a valid point about those who did not vote before, there
is another side to it. Some Remainers assumed that Remain would win so
didn't vote; but they would next time. Basically, the Remain side will
be much more motivated next time.

It may be that Brexiteers who voted believing the promises that their
vote would be honoured will not vote next time, especially if the polls
call it for Remain. Frankly, I'm as pro Brexit as you can find but I'm
not sure I would engage in the process if our previous vote was not
honoured. Or I might spoil the ballot paper. Don't know yet. But others
will feel as I do.

Despite the fact that Project Fear has been shown to be false, polls
since the vote haven't moved much so I see no evidence of a mass of
Remain voters changing because of it.

Some, like you, will say: we are democrats and we despise being asked to
vote again so we'll reaffirm our earlier vote. But if the EU deal is
very bad (and remember that the government has put all its eggs in the
EU basket and claimed that it can achieve the same benefits as we have
now) people /will/ be disappointed with it. The cry won't be that the
Tories have negotiated a bad deal but that leaving was not as easy as we
were told and that this was the best that could be achieved. If it's not
good enough then the only option will be to stay.

There are pluses on the Brexit side too, such as recent EU changes and
announcements and the temporary discrediting of Project Fear but they
may not be enough. (I say temporary discrediting because they are still
at it, still projecting the same job losses and economic doom behind the
mantra that Brexit hasn't happened yet.)

So IMO it would be a very, very bad idea to hold another referendum
which includes a Remain option.

[abelard]

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 13:04:58 +0000, James Harris

Post by James Harris
There are pluses on the Brexit side too, such as recent EU changes and
announcements and the temporary discrediting of Project Fear but they
may not be enough. (I say temporary discrediting because they are still
at it, still projecting the same job losses and economic doom behind the
mantra that Brexit hasn't happened yet.)

eventually they will be correct just because of the cyclic tendencies
of business cycles

as said, most people are economic illiterates

[Farmer Giles]

Post by abelard
On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 13:04:58 +0000, James Harris

Post by James Harris
There are pluses on the Brexit side too, such as recent EU changes and
announcements and the temporary discrediting of Project Fear but they
may not be enough. (I say temporary discrediting because they are still
at it, still projecting the same job losses and economic doom behind the
mantra that Brexit hasn't happened yet.)

eventually they will be correct just because of the cyclic tendencies
of business cycles

Business cycles having cyclic tendencies eh, whatever next.

Post by abelard
as said, most people are economic illiterates

And some, like yourself, completely illiterate.

[tim...]

Over the last couple of weeks I have been especially intrigued as to what
would really happen if we were to have a 'second' Brexit Referendum as
some are irrationally demanding.
I can't imagine what protocol would allow such a vote while we are so far
into our notice to leave but let's simply pretend for a moment, it is
about to happen.
Some here have decided, the older Brexiters will by now have left the
planet so their votes won't be available and especially with younger
people entering the voting arena, inclined to vote Remain, some argue,
then a win for the Remainers would be foregone! Worth a thought, if only
to dispel such myth.
When the Referendum took place I was astonished to discover some people I
know, simply didn't bother to vote, not because they were apolitical but
many overcome by the public poll after poll, decided it wasn't worth going
to the polling booth as it was overwhelmingly certain, Remain would win.
I can't claim which way *all* these lost votes would have gone had they
voted but many, I knew, appeared to be swayed to Leaving? Does anyone else
have a view on this?

I don't recall the polls being overwhelming.

As the campaign continued it was clear that the gap was narrowing and that
leave had a chance

Anybody who didn't vote on the day thinking that it wasn't worth it because
the result was a certainty, just wasn't watching.

Are we so fickle we will vote only if we are on the winning side? Is this
how snowflakes vote?
As a Brexiter and voting in a 'second' Referendum, I would vote to leave
with more determination but I would be very interested to hear any member
of our group who would honestly switch his vote in the new Referendum?

I have said it many times, I will say it again

I don't believe that we can have an honest "remain in" vote because I don't
believe that the EU would offer us a return to the status quo, if that were
the asked for result.

I believe that they would try to extract a very heavy price that would be
worse than us leaving with no deal

tim

[Nightjar]

On 14-Jan-18 1:57 PM, tim... wrote:
...

Post by tim...
I don't believe that we can have an honest "remain in" vote because I
don't believe that the EU would offer us a return to the status quo, if
that were the asked for result.
I believe that they would try to extract a very heavy price that would
be worse than us leaving with no deal

We haven't left yet, so, assuming that we withdrew the Article 50
notification and either the EU accepted that or, if they didn't, the ECJ
ruled that we could, the EU wouldn't be in a position to renegotiate our
membership.

[tim...]

Post by Nightjar
...

Post by tim...
I don't believe that we can have an honest "remain in" vote because I
don't believe that the EU would offer us a return to the status quo, if
that were the asked for result.
I believe that they would try to extract a very heavy price that would be
worse than us leaving with no deal

We haven't left yet, so, assuming that we withdrew the Article 50
notification and either the EU accepted that or, if they didn't, the ECJ
ruled that we could,

the latter would take too long

if they ruled against us, we would have passed the point where we were
automatically out, but then have no agreement

it isn't a viable scenario

we would have to accept the "renegotiate" scenario, IMHO

Post by Nightjar
the EU wouldn't be in a position to renegotiate our membership.

they would be if they pushed hard enough

tim

[Nightjar]

Post by tim...

Post by Nightjar
...

Post by tim...
I don't believe that we can have an honest "remain in" vote because I
don't believe that the EU would offer us a return to the status quo,
if that were the asked for result.
I believe that they would try to extract a very heavy price that
would be worse than us leaving with no deal

We haven't left yet, so, assuming that we withdrew the Article 50
notification and either the EU accepted that or, if they didn't, the
ECJ ruled that we could,

the latter would take too long

I only included it to cover all possibilities. The EU has already
indicated that it would be happy if we abandoned the madness of Brexit,
so I very much doubt they would refuse to accept the withdrawal of the
Article 50 notification.

Post by tim...
if they ruled against us, we would have passed the point where we were
automatically out, but then have no agreement
it isn't a viable scenario
we would have to accept the "renegotiate" scenario, IMHO

That could only happen if we first left, then voted to rejoin, which
isn't what is being suggested. In that case there would be no
renegotiation; We would have to rejoin on the same terms as any new member.

Post by tim...

Post by Nightjar
the EU wouldn't be in a position to renegotiate our membership.

they would be if they pushed hard enough

The EU has no power to renegotiate the terms under which members stay in
the EU.

[kat]

The EU has no power to renegotiate the terms under which members stay in the EU.

Our rebate was renegotiated every seven years. While we had a veto over
reduction, it is wrong to say the EU has no power.

[Yellow]

Post by Nightjar

Post by tim...

Post by Nightjar
...

Post by tim...
I don't believe that we can have an honest "remain in" vote because I
don't believe that the EU would offer us a return to the status quo,
if that were the asked for result.
I believe that they would try to extract a very heavy price that
would be worse than us leaving with no deal

We haven't left yet, so, assuming that we withdrew the Article 50
notification and either the EU accepted that or, if they didn't, the
ECJ ruled that we could,

the latter would take too long

I only included it to cover all possibilities. The EU has already
indicated that it would be happy if we abandoned the madness of Brexit,
so I very much doubt they would refuse to accept the withdrawal of the
Article 50 notification.

Post by tim...
if they ruled against us, we would have passed the point where we were
automatically out, but then have no agreement
it isn't a viable scenario
we would have to accept the "renegotiate" scenario, IMHO

That could only happen if we first left, then voted to rejoin, which
isn't what is being suggested. In that case there would be no
renegotiation; We would have to rejoin on the same terms as any new member.

Post by tim...

Post by Nightjar
the EU wouldn't be in a position to renegotiate our membership.

they would be if they pushed hard enough

The EU has no power to renegotiate the terms under which members stay in
the EU.

There is an argument that if A50 can simply be withdrawn without
argument or consequence, invoking it will become a tool that is used by
countries in the future when they can not get their own way with the EU.

[Nightjar]

On 14-Jan-18 10:47 PM, Yellow wrote:
...

Post by Yellow
There is an argument that if A50 can simply be withdrawn without
argument or consequence, invoking it will become a tool that is used by
countries in the future when they can not get their own way with the EU.

I would expect the EU to look very seriously at redrafting Article 50 as
a direct result of Brexit. They will want the things we have been
negotiating about so far set in stone in future.

[abelard]

Post by Nightjar
...

Post by Yellow
There is an argument that if A50 can simply be withdrawn without
argument or consequence, invoking it will become a tool that is used by
countries in the future when they can not get their own way with the EU.

I would expect the EU to look very seriously at redrafting Article 50 as
a direct result of Brexit. They will want the things we have been
negotiating about so far set in stone in future.

or thin concrete

[tim...]

Post by abelard

Post by Nightjar
...

Post by Yellow
There is an argument that if A50 can simply be withdrawn without
argument or consequence, invoking it will become a tool that is used by
countries in the future when they can not get their own way with the EU.

I would expect the EU to look very seriously at redrafting Article 50 as
a direct result of Brexit. They will want the things we have been
negotiating about so far set in stone in future.

or thin concrete

as it's a treaty it will take 10 years of re-negotiating

lots of scope for someone to do it again

tim

[James Harris]

Post by Nightjar
...

Post by Yellow
There is an argument that if A50 can simply be withdrawn without
argument or consequence, invoking it will become a tool that is used by
countries in the future when they can not get their own way with the EU.

I would expect the EU to look very seriously at redrafting Article 50 as
a direct result of Brexit. They will want the things we have been
negotiating about so far set in stone in future.

What they ought to add is that any country which leaves has to pay to
the end of the budget period ... and will receive all pecuniary benefits
to the end of the budget period. That'll put the wind up them....

[tim...]

Post by Nightjar
...

Post by Yellow
There is an argument that if A50 can simply be withdrawn without
argument or consequence, invoking it will become a tool that is used by
countries in the future when they can not get their own way with the EU.

I would expect the EU to look very seriously at redrafting Article 50 as
a direct result of Brexit. They will want the things we have been
negotiating about so far set in stone in future.

What they ought to add is that any country which leaves has to pay to the
end of the budget period ... and will receive all pecuniary benefits to
the end of the budget period. That'll put the wind up them....

Poland and it's 40 billion net gain from the EU will be rubbing its hands
with glee

tim

[James Harris]

Post by tim...

Post by Nightjar
...

Post by Yellow
There is an argument that if A50 can simply be withdrawn without
argument or consequence, invoking it will become a tool that is used by
countries in the future when they can not get their own way with the EU.

I would expect the EU to look very seriously at redrafting Article 50 as
a direct result of Brexit. They will want the things we have been
negotiating about so far set in stone in future.

What they ought to add is that any country which leaves has to pay to the
end of the budget period ... and will receive all pecuniary benefits to
the end of the budget period. That'll put the wind up them....

Poland and it's 40 billion net gain from the EU will be rubbing its hands
with glee

Yes, most countries are net beneficiaries - funded by Germany, Britain,
France and a few others.

[R. Mark Clayton]

Post by James Harris

Post by tim...

Post by Nightjar
...

Post by Yellow
There is an argument that if A50 can simply be withdrawn without
argument or consequence, invoking it will become a tool that is used by
countries in the future when they can not get their own way with the EU.

I would expect the EU to look very seriously at redrafting Article 50 as
a direct result of Brexit. They will want the things we have been
negotiating about so far set in stone in future.

What they ought to add is that any country which leaves has to pay to the
end of the budget period ... and will receive all pecuniary benefits to
the end of the budget period. That'll put the wind up them....

Poland and it's 40 billion net gain from the EU will be rubbing its hands
with glee

Yes, most countries are net beneficiaries - funded by Germany, Britain,
France and a few others.
--
James Harris

Wrong - all of the countries are net beneficiaries, albeit not necessarily in cash.

[tim...]

Post by R. Mark Clayton

Post by James Harris

Post by tim...

Post by Nightjar
...

Post by Yellow
There is an argument that if A50 can simply be withdrawn without
argument or consequence, invoking it will become a tool that is used by
countries in the future when they can not get their own way with the EU.

I would expect the EU to look very seriously at redrafting Article 50 as
a direct result of Brexit. They will want the things we have been
negotiating about so far set in stone in future.

What they ought to add is that any country which leaves has to pay to the
end of the budget period ... and will receive all pecuniary benefits to
the end of the budget period. That'll put the wind up them....

Poland and it's 40 billion net gain from the EU will be rubbing its hands
with glee

Yes, most countries are net beneficiaries - funded by Germany, Britain,
France and a few others.
--
James Harris

Wrong - all of the countries are net beneficiaries,

nonsense

tim

[pamela]

Post by tim...

Post by R. Mark Clayton

Post by James Harris

Post by tim...

Post by James Harris

Post by Nightjar
...

Post by Yellow
There is an argument that if A50 can simply be withdrawn
without argument or consequence, invoking it will become
a tool that is used by
countries in the future when they can not get their own
way with the EU.

I would expect the EU to look very seriously at redrafting Article 50 as
a direct result of Brexit. They will want the things we
have been negotiating about so far set in stone in future.

What they ought to add is that any country which leaves has
to pay to the end of the budget period ... and will receive
all pecuniary benefits to the end of the budget period.
That'll put the wind up them....

Poland and it's 40 billion net gain from the EU will be
rubbing its hands
with glee

Yes, most countries are net beneficiaries - funded by Germany,
Britain, France and a few others.

Wrong - all of the countries are net beneficiaries,

nonsense

There are more benefits to being a member of the EU than just
trade.

[JNugent]

Post by pamela

Post by tim...

Post by R. Mark Clayton

Post by James Harris

Post by tim...

Post by James Harris

Post by Nightjar
...

Post by Yellow
There is an argument that if A50 can simply be withdrawn
without argument or consequence, invoking it will become
a tool that is used by
countries in the future when they can not get their own
way with the EU.

I would expect the EU to look very seriously at redrafting Article 50 as
a direct result of Brexit. They will want the things we
have been negotiating about so far set in stone in future.

What they ought to add is that any country which leaves has
to pay to the end of the budget period ... and will receive
all pecuniary benefits to the end of the budget period.
That'll put the wind up them....

Poland and it's 40 billion net gain from the EU will be
rubbing its hands
with glee

Yes, most countries are net beneficiaries - funded by Germany,
Britain, France and a few others.

Wrong - all of the countries are net beneficiaries,

nonsense

There are more benefits to being a member of the EU than just
trade.

Agreed. It apparently entitles a country to almost unlimited amounts of
cheap immigrant labour. Such a boon for employers and landlords.

[Fredxx]

Post by JNugent

Post by pamela

Post by tim...

Post by R. Mark Clayton

Post by James Harris

Post by tim...

Post by James Harris

Post by Nightjar
...

Post by Yellow
There is an argument that if A50 can simply be withdrawn
without argument or consequence, invoking it will become
a tool that is used by
countries in the future when they can not get their own way with the EU.

I would expect the EU to look very seriously at redrafting Article 50 as
a direct result of Brexit. They will want the things we
have been negotiating about so far set in stone in future.

What they ought to add is that any country which leaves has
to pay to the end of the budget period ... and will receive
all pecuniary benefits to the end of the budget period.
That'll put the wind up them....

Poland and it's 40 billion net gain from the EU will be
rubbing its hands
with glee

Yes, most countries are net beneficiaries - funded by Germany,
Britain, France and a few others.

Wrong - all of the countries are net beneficiaries,

nonsense

There are more benefits to being a member of the EU than just
trade.

Agreed. It apparently entitles a country to almost unlimited amounts of
cheap immigrant labour. Such a boon for employers and landlords.

I suspect Pamela doesn't work, nor is a tenant, so was doing very nicely.

[Ian Jackson]

In message <p3p1dc$km$***@dont-email.me>, Fredxx <***@nospam.com>
writes

Post by Fredxx
I suspect Pamela doesn't work, nor is a tenant, so was doing very nicely.

You seem to have a bit of a 'down' on people who are 'doing very
nicely'.

Should they all be apologising?

[pamela]

Post by JNugent

Post by pamela

Post by tim...

On Tuesday, 16 January 2018 18:10:30 UTC, James Harris

Post by James Harris

Post by tim...

Post by James Harris

Post by Nightjar
...

Post by Yellow
There is an argument that if A50 can simply be withdrawn
without argument or consequence, invoking it will become
a tool that is used by
countries in the future when they can not get their own way with the EU.

I would expect the EU to look very seriously at
redrafting Article 50 as
a direct result of Brexit. They will want the things we
have been negotiating about so far set in stone in
future.

What they ought to add is that any country which leaves
has to pay to the end of the budget period ... and will
receive all pecuniary benefits to the end of the budget
period. That'll put the wind up them....

Poland and it's 40 billion net gain from the EU will be
rubbing its hands
with glee

Yes, most countries are net beneficiaries - funded by
Germany, Britain, France and a few others.

Wrong - all of the countries are net beneficiaries,

nonsense

There are more benefits to being a member of the EU than just
trade.

Agreed. It apparently entitles a country to almost unlimited
amounts of cheap immigrant labour. Such a boon for employers and
landlords.

Consumers who don't want to pay higher prices to cover poor
productivity. Consumers also want to engage reliable, hard
working, honest workers to assist them directly perhaps as
trademen.

Considering the income taxes the Revenue obtains from additional
workers to spend on social causes, it's a win-win.

Workshy Brits gain too as fewer empty jobs provides them with a
better excuse for being on the dole.

[tim...]

Post by pamela

Post by tim...

Post by R. Mark Clayton

Post by James Harris

Post by tim...

Post by James Harris

Post by Nightjar
...

Post by Yellow
There is an argument that if A50 can simply be withdrawn
without argument or consequence, invoking it will become
a tool that is used by
countries in the future when they can not get their own way with the EU.

I would expect the EU to look very seriously at redrafting Article 50 as
a direct result of Brexit. They will want the things we
have been negotiating about so far set in stone in future.

What they ought to add is that any country which leaves has
to pay to the end of the budget period ... and will receive
all pecuniary benefits to the end of the budget period.
That'll put the wind up them....

Poland and it's 40 billion net gain from the EU will be
rubbing its hands
with glee

Yes, most countries are net beneficiaries - funded by Germany,
Britain, France and a few others.

Wrong - all of the countries are net beneficiaries,

nonsense

There are more benefits to being a member of the EU than just
trade.

what's that then?

the warm fuzzy feeling that you get from telling the world that you are "in"

tim

[Fredxx]

Post by R. Mark Clayton

Post by James Harris

Post by tim...

Post by Nightjar
...

Post by Yellow
There is an argument that if A50 can simply be withdrawn without
argument or consequence, invoking it will become a tool that is used by
countries in the future when they can not get their own way with the EU.

I would expect the EU to look very seriously at redrafting Article 50 as
a direct result of Brexit. They will want the things we have been
negotiating about so far set in stone in future.

What they ought to add is that any country which leaves has to pay to the
end of the budget period ... and will receive all pecuniary benefits to
the end of the budget period. That'll put the wind up them....

Poland and it's 40 billion net gain from the EU will be rubbing its hands
with glee

Yes, most countries are net beneficiaries - funded by Germany, Britain,
France and a few others.
--
James Harris

Wrong - all of the countries are net beneficiaries, albeit not necessarily in cash.

You don't come across as being very bright. I guess a Tory voter. Of
course Tory voters have a lower educational attainment.

[Ophelia]

Post by R. Mark Clayton

Post by James Harris

Post by tim...

Post by Nightjar
...

Post by Yellow
There is an argument that if A50 can simply be withdrawn without
argument or consequence, invoking it will become a tool that is used by
countries in the future when they can not get their own way with the EU.

I would expect the EU to look very seriously at redrafting Article 50 as
a direct result of Brexit. They will want the things we have been
negotiating about so far set in stone in future.

What they ought to add is that any country which leaves has to pay to the
end of the budget period ... and will receive all pecuniary benefits to
the end of the budget period. That'll put the wind up them....

Poland and it's 40 billion net gain from the EU will be rubbing its hands
with glee

Yes, most countries are net beneficiaries - funded by Germany, Britain,
France and a few others.
--
James Harris

Wrong - all of the countries are net beneficiaries, albeit not necessarily in cash.

You don't come across as being very bright. I guess a Tory voter. Of
course Tory voters have a lower educational attainment.

=
LOL

[tim...]

Post by Fredxx

Post by R. Mark Clayton

Post by James Harris

Post by tim...

Post by Nightjar
...

Post by Yellow
There is an argument that if A50 can simply be withdrawn without
argument or consequence, invoking it will become a tool that is used by
countries in the future when they can not get their own way with the EU.

I would expect the EU to look very seriously at redrafting Article 50 as
a direct result of Brexit. They will want the things we have been
negotiating about so far set in stone in future.

What they ought to add is that any country which leaves has to pay to the
end of the budget period ... and will receive all pecuniary benefits to
the end of the budget period. That'll put the wind up them....

Poland and it's 40 billion net gain from the EU will be rubbing its hands
with glee

Yes, most countries are net beneficiaries - funded by Germany, Britain,
France and a few others.
--
James Harris

Wrong - all of the countries are net beneficiaries, albeit not necessarily in cash.

You don't come across as being very bright. I guess a Tory voter. Of
course Tory voters have a lower educational attainment.

he's an arch Remoaner

He thinks that everyone gains a huge benefit just from being "in",
regardless of how high the cost.

tim

[James Harris]

Post by R. Mark Clayton

Post by James Harris

Post by tim...

Post by Nightjar
...

Post by Yellow
There is an argument that if A50 can simply be withdrawn without
argument or consequence, invoking it will become a tool that is used by
countries in the future when they can not get their own way with the EU.

I would expect the EU to look very seriously at redrafting Article 50 as
a direct result of Brexit. They will want the things we have been
negotiating about so far set in stone in future.

What they ought to add is that any country which leaves has to pay to the
end of the budget period ... and will receive all pecuniary benefits to
the end of the budget period. That'll put the wind up them....

Poland and it's 40 billion net gain from the EU will be rubbing its hands
with glee

Yes, most countries are net beneficiaries - funded by Germany, Britain,
France and a few others.
--
James Harris

Wrong - all of the countries are net beneficiaries, albeit not necessarily in cash.

I was winding remainers up a bit. The fact remains, however, that some
members pay for others.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8036097.stm#start

[pamela]

Post by James Harris

Post by tim...

Post by James Harris

Post by Nightjar
...

Post by Yellow
There is an argument that if A50 can simply be withdrawn
without argument or consequence, invoking it will become a
tool that is used by countries in the future when they can
not get their own way with the EU.

I would expect the EU to look very seriously at redrafting
Article 50 as a direct result of Brexit. They will want the
things we have been negotiating about so far set in stone in
future.

What they ought to add is that any country which leaves has to
pay to the end of the budget period ... and will receive all
pecuniary benefits to the end of the budget period. That'll
put the wind up them....

Poland and it's 40 billion net gain from the EU will be rubbing
its hands with glee

Yes, most countries are net beneficiaries - funded by Germany,
Britain, France and a few others.

Although the UK is third largest contributor, it also has a large
population.

Using contribution per capita, the UK is about 8th. The
Netherlands, Germany, Sweden, Belgium, France, etc contribute more
per capita than the UK.

https://select-statistics.co.uk/wp-
content/uploads/2016/04/EUNetContributionCombined.png

[Joe]

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 09:26:32 +0000

Post by Nightjar
I would expect the EU to look very seriously at redrafting Article 50
as a direct result of Brexit. They will want the things we have been
negotiating about so far set in stone in future.

Indeed. Article 50 is far too simple and plainly-written for a clause
that was ever intended to be invoked. I am curious as to who insisted
on its inclusion, as I'm sure that every comma of the Lisbon Treaty was
bitterly fought over.

[tim...]

Post by Nightjar

Post by tim...

Post by Nightjar
...

Post by tim...
I don't believe that we can have an honest "remain in" vote because I
don't believe that the EU would offer us a return to the status quo, if
that were the asked for result.
I believe that they would try to extract a very heavy price that would
be worse than us leaving with no deal

We haven't left yet, so, assuming that we withdrew the Article 50
notification and either the EU accepted that or, if they didn't, the ECJ
ruled that we could,

the latter would take too long

I only included it to cover all possibilities.

I think it's the most likely scenario

Post by Nightjar
The EU has already indicated that it would be happy if we abandoned the
madness of Brexit,

As I have frequently posted it includes the unspoken "because it will give
us the opportunity to SCREW you when you ask to come back"

Post by Nightjar
so I very much doubt they would refuse to accept the withdrawal of the
Article 50 notification.

but they will almost certainly impose draconian condition for doing so

We have seen the bastard way in which they negotiate (many times)

why would this scenario possibly be any different? They see an a
opportunity to claim some benefits from the situation They will take it.

you are very naive in thinking otherwise

Post by Nightjar

Post by tim...
if they ruled against us, we would have passed the point where we were
automatically out, but then have no agreement
it isn't a viable scenario
we would have to accept the "renegotiate" scenario, IMHO

That could only happen if we first left,

no

if we get to leaving date without an agreement to extend - we are out
AUTOMATICALLY, no exceptions

Post by Nightjar
then voted to rejoin, which isn't what is being suggested. In that case
there would be no renegotiation; We would have to rejoin on the same terms
as any new member.

Post by tim...

Post by Nightjar
the EU wouldn't be in a position to renegotiate our membership.

they would be if they pushed hard enough

The EU has no power to renegotiate the terms under which members stay in
the EU.

but they do have the power to set conditions on them agreeing to us
withdrawing our resignation. There is no laid down process for this. They
will have to make one up and we will have no power in what they decide.

tim